Hello,

I'm new to this newsgroup and to the world of fine teas in general and have
a few questions. A couple of days ago when I was shopping in my local Asian
supermarket, I stopped by the housewares section and saw two teapots that
looked like they were yixing teapots. They were hidden behind some Japanese
iron teapots but these were clay ones and had Chinese chops on the bottom.
There was a plain one for about $25 and one with a dragon theme design for
$35.

My question is, what are the chances that these are made from real yixing
clay? Are lower quality yixing teapots common enough that they might show
up in an Asian supermarket? If they are made from some other type of clay,
would they retain the tea flavor and become seasoned like a yixing one? I
can't really ask anyone there about them since a) my Chinese isn't good
enough to ask the right questions and b) if you've ever been in an Asian
supermarket, you know customer service isn't their strong suit. Is it worth
it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?

Alan

In general you'll never be sure if it is Yixing. You'll always have
to take somebody's word for it. I'd look for the signature purple
pots with chop marks even though other colors are okay. In fact any
display of Yixing should have more than one color. Factory Yixing
isn't expensive while artizan pieces are let the buyer beware. Learn
the Chinese characters for Yixing. In the stores the display items
will come in original shipping box. Yixing is the clay and the pot
almost any style. An excellent source for Yixing is Museum shops.
Upscale trendy department stores sell Yixing and talk to the buyer. I
personally like teapots that say make tea and not one that says look
where I came from. I'd spend the money to buy a Yixing Brown Betty.
You can expect to get a cheap Yixing pot for the prices you mentioned.

Jim


"abl" > wrote in message thlink.net>...
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this newsgroup and to the world of fine teas in general and have
> a few questions. A couple of days ago when I was shopping in my local Asian
> supermarket, I stopped by the housewares section and saw two teapots that
> looked like they were yixing teapots. They were hidden behind some Japanese
> iron teapots but these were clay ones and had Chinese chops on the bottom.
> There was a plain one for about $25 and one with a dragon theme design for
> $35.
>
> My question is, what are the chances that these are made from real yixing
> clay? Are lower quality yixing teapots common enough that they might show
> up in an Asian supermarket? If they are made from some other type of clay,
> would they retain the tea flavor and become seasoned like a yixing one? I
> can't really ask anyone there about them since a) my Chinese isn't good
> enough to ask the right questions and b) if you've ever been in an Asian
> supermarket, you know customer service isn't their strong suit. Is it worth
> it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?
>
> Alan

> Is it worth
> it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?


I've got a couple of authentic yixings from museum shop sales, several
cheaper versions (not "fakes"; just molded, thin-wall porous stoneware from
whatever factory) from malls and Chinese kitchen shops, several gorgeous
paper-thin pots from Japan, and the usual selection of German porcelain,
English stoneware, American schlock. (Still looking for a Fiestaware I can
afford in a colour I like.) Not to mention the single-cup gadgets. Needless
to say, I'm in complete control of this apparent addiction.

IMO, there's a vast difference in finish and artistry with the top-drawer
merchandise, but nil difference in performance. The big split is glazed
(which will season, if you like a UK-style interior crust of polymerized
tannins) vs. porous (seasoning critical, ongoing, affects taste). There's
also a huge effect of thermal mass; clunky pots require a good preheat (for
black teas) where thin walls take little from the brew.

Yixing and any other fine clay high-fired to a nice ringing chime are all
about the same, IMO - but few outside of China make anything like that.
Cheaper clays, with more "grog" and less well prepared before casting or
pressing, are much more porous, duller in tone when rapped, and take longer
to season. -Just takes more gunk to clog those pores.

Beyond that, to me, it's aesthetics rather than eyes-shut brewing
performance. I must say that I do admire a really nice slip-glazed or
hand-buffed finish, but I can't usually justify the $50 or more to get it.
I've never bought one of those real artworks, partly because I like to use
all my teapots without too much worry.

I used to make my own ceramics, and made some dandy yixing-style cups with
walls less than 2 mm thick. With a high fire, not even too fragile. But I'd
never try to make a pot! On the clay front, anyone who's done a but of
wheel-throwing will tell you that slip-casting and mold pressing rarely give
the same properties in the finished product achieved naturally (but slowly)
with wheel-throwing and hand-building. Again, though, that's a detail.
Seasoned properly, any ol' clay pot will work fine.

To technique: magic is fun, and personal ritual is important. Me, I take an
ounce of cheap, strong but neutral tea (say a supermarket keemun), boil it
up with the virgin pot in a small saucepan, let cool overnight, rinse clean
and use. Then it takes only a couple of brews to get some kind of
consistency.

-DM

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> wrote in message >...
> (Still looking for a Fiestaware I can afford in a colour I like.)

Flea Market Finds with the Kovells did a Fiestaware teapot segment
recently. Prices sky high. I remember a 50's yellow pot for $300
about the size of three cups. My goal this year buy some Russian
teapots.

Jim

> Flea Market Finds with the Kovells did a Fiestaware teapot segment
> recently. Prices sky high. I remember a 50's yellow pot for $300
> about the size of three cups. My goal this year buy some Russian
> teapots.
>
> Jim


Aagh - $300 for a teapot! Bit rich for my blood. I see Fiestaware copies in
the discount stores, but only in grotty colours.

On a side note, a friend's mother was going to get rid of some nice orange
pieces from her collection because she'd been warned that the glaze was made
with uranium. I said that this was silly; there's uranium glass everywhere,
and it's not that "hot" anyway. I brought over a geiger counter, and by
golly, it buzzed like mad! I said that that was still nothing on a
radium-dial watch, so she kept them. Too bad - she might have given them to
me for safe disposal.

-DM

Space Cowboy > wrote:
> In general you'll never be sure if it is Yixing.

Then do I care?

(A question of asthetics.)

Rick.

I want to say one more thing about this type of post. Only someone
who has been drinking tea a long time could let the thoughts and ideas
flow from fingers to keyboard. I recognize the style because it is
akin to mine where talking about tea is effortless and derived more
from experience than research. There are only a few other people in
this ng with this kind of acumen. It's not even important who I think
they are because you can find out for yourself. You'll notice their
discussions about tea are generalities which is more interesting than
any specifics like where they buy it or many posts in this ng where it
a hodgepodge of copy and paste from any previous threads on the
subject by some wannabee. All I can say is look at the information in
this post which should be a lot more helpfull than somebody telling
you where to buy it. I don't have any trouble with specifics if it is
helpfull for the generality. You'll learn alot more about tea by
doing it yourself than taking my word for it. This high speed
internet has got me working overtime. I can't sleep.

Jim

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> wrote in message >...
> > Is it worth
> > it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?
>
>
> I've got a couple of authentic yixings from museum shop sales, several
> cheaper versions (not "fakes"; just molded, thin-wall porous stoneware from
> whatever factory) from malls and Chinese kitchen shops, several gorgeous
> paper-thin pots from Japan, and the usual selection of German porcelain,
> English stoneware, American schlock. (Still looking for a Fiestaware I can
> afford in a colour I like.) Not to mention the single-cup gadgets. Needless
> to say, I'm in complete control of this apparent addiction.
>
> IMO, there's a vast difference in finish and artistry with the top-drawer
> merchandise, but nil difference in performance. The big split is glazed
> (which will season, if you like a UK-style interior crust of polymerized
> tannins) vs. porous (seasoning critical, ongoing, affects taste). There's
> also a huge effect of thermal mass; clunky pots require a good preheat (for
> black teas) where thin walls take little from the brew.
>
> Yixing and any other fine clay high-fired to a nice ringing chime are all
> about the same, IMO - but few outside of China make anything like that.
> Cheaper clays, with more "grog" and less well prepared before casting or
> pressing, are much more porous, duller in tone when rapped, and take longer
> to season. -Just takes more gunk to clog those pores.
>
> Beyond that, to me, it's aesthetics rather than eyes-shut brewing
> performance. I must say that I do admire a really nice slip-glazed or
> hand-buffed finish, but I can't usually justify the $50 or more to get it.
> I've never bought one of those real artworks, partly because I like to use
> all my teapots without too much worry.
>
> I used to make my own ceramics, and made some dandy yixing-style cups with
> walls less than 2 mm thick. With a high fire, not even too fragile. But I'd
> never try to make a pot! On the clay front, anyone who's done a but of
> wheel-throwing will tell you that slip-casting and mold pressing rarely give
> the same properties in the finished product achieved naturally (but slowly)
> with wheel-throwing and hand-building. Again, though, that's a detail.
> Seasoned properly, any ol' clay pot will work fine.
>
> To technique: magic is fun, and personal ritual is important. Me, I take an
> ounce of cheap, strong but neutral tea (say a supermarket keemun), boil it
> up with the virgin pot in a small saucepan, let cool overnight, rinse clean
> and use. Then it takes only a couple of brews to get some kind of
> consistency.
>
> -DM

In addition to having wisdom and knowledge of tea he has also never
demonstrated intolerance, conceit, or antagonism. Nor has he ever
resorted to theatrical name calling, flaming, or bashing. He has
always shared his knowledge and opinions without coming across as
"high and mighty".

Maybe your style is not as akin to his as you would like to think!



On 23 Jan 2004 08:55:45 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
wrote:

>I want to say one more thing about this type of post. Only someone
>who has been drinking tea a long time could let the thoughts and ideas
>flow from fingers to keyboard. I recognize the style because it is
>akin to mine where talking about tea is effortless and derived more
>from experience than research. There are only a few other people in
>this ng with this kind of acumen. It's not even important who I think
>they are because you can find out for yourself. You'll notice their
>discussions about tea are generalities which is more interesting than
>any specifics like where they buy it or many posts in this ng where it
>a hodgepodge of copy and paste from any previous threads on the
>subject by some wannabee. All I can say is look at the information in
>this post which should be a lot more helpfull than somebody telling
>you where to buy it. I don't have any trouble with specifics if it is
>helpfull for the generality. You'll learn alot more about tea by
>doing it yourself than taking my word for it. This high speed
>internet has got me working overtime. I can't sleep.
>
>Jim
>
>"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> wrote in message >...
>> > Is it worth
>> > it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?
>>
>>
>> I've got a couple of authentic yixings from museum shop sales, several
>> cheaper versions (not "fakes"; just molded, thin-wall porous stoneware from
>> whatever factory) from malls and Chinese kitchen shops, several gorgeous
>> paper-thin pots from Japan, and the usual selection of German porcelain,
>> English stoneware, American schlock. (Still looking for a Fiestaware I can
>> afford in a colour I like.) Not to mention the single-cup gadgets. Needless
>> to say, I'm in complete control of this apparent addiction.
>>
>> IMO, there's a vast difference in finish and artistry with the top-drawer
>> merchandise, but nil difference in performance. The big split is glazed
>> (which will season, if you like a UK-style interior crust of polymerized
>> tannins) vs. porous (seasoning critical, ongoing, affects taste). There's
>> also a huge effect of thermal mass; clunky pots require a good preheat (for
>> black teas) where thin walls take little from the brew.
>>
>> Yixing and any other fine clay high-fired to a nice ringing chime are all
>> about the same, IMO - but few outside of China make anything like that.
>> Cheaper clays, with more "grog" and less well prepared before casting or
>> pressing, are much more porous, duller in tone when rapped, and take longer
>> to season. -Just takes more gunk to clog those pores.
>>
>> Beyond that, to me, it's aesthetics rather than eyes-shut brewing
>> performance. I must say that I do admire a really nice slip-glazed or
>> hand-buffed finish, but I can't usually justify the $50 or more to get it.
>> I've never bought one of those real artworks, partly because I like to use
>> all my teapots without too much worry.
>>
>> I used to make my own ceramics, and made some dandy yixing-style cups with
>> walls less than 2 mm thick. With a high fire, not even too fragile. But I'd
>> never try to make a pot! On the clay front, anyone who's done a but of
>> wheel-throwing will tell you that slip-casting and mold pressing rarely give
>> the same properties in the finished product achieved naturally (but slowly)
>> with wheel-throwing and hand-building. Again, though, that's a detail.
>> Seasoned properly, any ol' clay pot will work fine.
>>
>> To technique: magic is fun, and personal ritual is important. Me, I take an
>> ounce of cheap, strong but neutral tea (say a supermarket keemun), boil it
>> up with the virgin pot in a small saucepan, let cool overnight, rinse clean
>> and use. Then it takes only a couple of brews to get some kind of
>> consistency.
>>
>> -DM


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

>snip

(Still looking for a Fiestaware I can afford in a colour I like.)

>snip

http://www.restaurant-store.com/greyteapot.html

Here's a very attractive pearl grey color.

Aurora

Oh you're just ****ed because you can't buy anything from me and go
slobbering around in the ng giving personal testimonials about how
knowledgeable I am. Anyway I'm in a Celtic store this weekend and
came across a Brooke Bond label called Scottish Blend ($5/250g). It
says it was specifically formulated for the soft Scottish water and
only sold in Scotland (You know someone has connections where
everything is shipped in a trunk). It had a hinged cardboard lid which
exposed a slot to remove the teabags. The lid made a good seal when
closed. I wished more commercial tea was this way maybe even a slot
for loose tea. I thought it made a good enough brew with the
hardwater from the well so this will be my Scottish breakfast tea for
a while.

Jim


Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> In addition to having wisdom and knowledge of tea he has also never
> demonstrated intolerance, conceit, or antagonism. Nor has he ever
> resorted to theatrical name calling, flaming, or bashing. He has
> always shared his knowledge and opinions without coming across as
> "high and mighty".
>
> Maybe your style is not as akin to his as you would like to think!
>
>
>
> On 23 Jan 2004 08:55:45 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
> wrote:

When someone attacks me on a personal level it does tend to **** me
off, and you made it personal by resorting to ridicule, name calling,
and personal insults etc.

All I did was respond with my honest opinion to some other poster who
specifically asked about a particular vendor, read the thread if you
dont remember. Just because I had experience with vendor XYZ does not
mean I am working for him in some sort of clandestine promotional
scheme. Many of us here have shared our experiences about various
sources. If you read the archives you will also see where I shared bad
experiences as well. Sharing our experience is part of what the Usenet
is all about. If you disagree with my opinion then I welcome yours. I
can accept a difference of opinion, but my opinion IS just as valid as
yours.

You have a lot of good stuff to offer, I have seen it in some of your
other posts However, there is no need to be so judgmental and
intolerant, and there is definitely no need to resort to juvenile
tactics like name calling etc.

Mike

On 26 Jan 2004 06:42:11 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
wrote:

>Oh you're just ****ed because you can't buy anything from me and go
>slobbering around in the ng giving personal testimonials about how
>knowledgeable I am. Anyway I'm in a Celtic store this weekend and
>came across a Brooke Bond label called Scottish Blend ($5/250g). It
>says it was specifically formulated for the soft Scottish water and
>only sold in Scotland (You know someone has connections where
>everything is shipped in a trunk). It had a hinged cardboard lid which
>exposed a slot to remove the teabags. The lid made a good seal when
>closed. I wished more commercial tea was this way maybe even a slot
>for loose tea. I thought it made a good enough brew with the
>hardwater from the well so this will be my Scottish breakfast tea for
>a while.
>
>Jim
>
>
>Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
>> In addition to having wisdom and knowledge of tea he has also never
>> demonstrated intolerance, conceit, or antagonism. Nor has he ever
>> resorted to theatrical name calling, flaming, or bashing. He has
>> always shared his knowledge and opinions without coming across as
>> "high and mighty".
>>
>> Maybe your style is not as akin to his as you would like to think!
>>
>>
>>
>> On 23 Jan 2004 08:55:45 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
>> wrote:


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

What should **** you off is the embedded businessman and bookseller.
I appointed myself the group's Curmudgeon years ago. If you read my
posts carefully if need be I let go specially crafted barbs to fit the
tone of the thread but I never badmouth your mama or talk about your
personal hygiene. If all you can offer is personal testimonials or
the line item details of your last WWW tea invoice then you have
nothing to say and would be better off in a Starbuck's group where the
communal expertise is directly proportional to the price of the coffee
and whether the barista knows your first name.

Jim

Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> When someone attacks me on a personal level it does tend to **** me
> off, and you made it personal by resorting to ridicule, name calling,
> and personal insults etc.

> On 26 Jan 2004 06:42:11 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
> wrote:
> >Oh you're just ****ed because you can't buy anything from me and go
> >slobbering around in the ng giving personal testimonials about how
> >knowledgeable I am.

Hmm, "self appointed Curmudgeon ", interesting choice of titles, I
wont argue.

Look Jim, I think you have taken 1 or 2 posts out of context with
disregard for my other posts over the last couple of years. If you
think that all I have ever contributed is what you stated below then I
sincerely doubt you have read many of my other posts.

In any event I may not be a wise old tea master but I am here to stay
so I guess we are going to have learn to live with each other. If you
will look past my occasional ignorance I will look past your
occasional grumpiness. If you are ever in southside Virginia look me
up and we can share a pot of silver needle puerh..... I suspect you
might enjoy it.

Speaking of tea, lets start a new thread, what's your take on Lapsang
Souchong? Elixer or mouthwash? From what I understand the Chinese
never touch the stuff. I find it to be quite relaxing at times, kicked
back with a good book on the weekend etc.


On 27 Jan 2004 07:45:10 -0800, (Space Cowboy)
wrote:

>What should **** you off is the embedded businessman and bookseller.
>I appointed myself the group's Curmudgeon years ago. If you read my
>posts carefully if need be I let go specially crafted barbs to fit the
>tone of the thread but I never badmouth your mama or talk about your
>personal hygiene. If all you can offer is personal testimonials or
>the line item details of your last WWW tea invoice then you have
>nothing to say and would be better off in a Starbuck's group where the
>communal expertise is directly proportional to the price of the coffee
>and whether the barista knows your first name.
>
>Jim
>
>Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
>> When someone attacks me on a personal level it does tend to **** me
>> off, and you made it personal by resorting to ridicule, name calling,
>> and personal insults etc.


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> Speaking of tea, lets start a new thread, what's your take on Lapsang
> Souchong? Elixer or mouthwash? From what I understand the Chinese
> never touch the stuff. I find it to be quite relaxing at times, kicked
> back with a good book on the weekend etc.

Most of the lapsangs I've tried have been a very lightly fermented base and
a lot of smoke - don't work well for me. I wondered how a smoked strong
Assam might taste, and added a little lapsang to a pot. Wonderful! I do it
all the time now, and if I could figure out how to maintain an even mix with
such different leaf shapes, I'd make a stock of the blen.

-DM

I though the modified header would generate a new thread. How does that
work, anyway?

It probably would have worked if you left the "RE" off. The newsgroup
readers assume the "RE" is a follow up to an original thread.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:30:34 GMT, "Dog Ma 1"
(reply w/o spam)> wrote:

>I though the modified header would generate a new thread. How does that
>work, anyway?
>


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
contain Lapsabg as a component.

I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
there different base teas available?

Mike



On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 01:29:33 GMT, "Dog Ma 1"
(reply w/o spam)> wrote:

>Most of the lapsangs I've tried have been a very lightly fermented base and
>a lot of smoke - don't work well for me. I wondered how a smoked strong
>Assam might taste, and added a little lapsang to a pot. Wonderful! I do it
>all the time now, and if I could figure out how to maintain an even mix with
>such different leaf shapes, I'd make a stock of the blen.
>
>-DM
>


Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net
remove the "filter" in my email address to reply

OK, trying again to start a new thread...

"Mike Petro" > wrote in message
...
> I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
> contain Lapsabg as a component.

Sorry about that cold, Mike. A hot cup of mint tea might clear that
congested nose

> I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
> so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
> there different base teas available?

I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?) Lagavulin, Laphroaig
and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and body. very lightly peated
whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky ones without the body just don't
work for me. In fact, I find that I drink the smoky ones with less than 50%
added water, which makes them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness
and body in balance with smoke.

-DM

Subconsciously I was waiting to jump on the first person to give a
glowing personal testimonial for the embedded businessman. Wait till
somebody gives a book review from you know who. Frankly even if I
remembered your previous efforts it wouldn't have made any difference
in this case. LS turned up in my thermos on Monday when shoveling six
inches of snow the weatherman didn't forecast.

Jim

Mike Petro > wrote in message >. ..
> Hmm, "self appointed Curmudgeon ", interesting choice of titles, I
> wont argue.
>
> Look Jim, I think you have taken 1 or 2 posts out of context with
> disregard for my other posts over the last couple of years. If you
> think that all I have ever contributed is what you stated below then I
> sincerely doubt you have read many of my other posts.

"Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:

> OK, trying again to start a new thread...
>
> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
> ...
> > [...]
> > I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
> > so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
> > there different base teas available?
>
> I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
> whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?)

Yes!

> Lagavulin, Laphroaig and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and
> body. very lightly peated whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky
> ones without the body just don't work for me. In fact, I find that I
> drink the smoky ones with less than 50% added water, which makes
> them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness and body in
> balance with smoke.

I'm certainly no expert on whisky (in fact, I haven't tried the ones
you named), but I find myself not returning to the smoky ones
(e.g. Oban) and preferring those that are relatively smoke-free
(e.g. Dalmore, Macallan Cask Strength.) As for dilution, for me
adding water changes the taste so much that I prefer to drink it
straight in tiny sips. I love the way the vapor fills my mouth and
nose. This works for me even at 68% alcohol (Macallan CS.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Mike 1/27/04


> I have tasted a lot of very fine Russian Caravan blends that also
> contain Lapsabg as a component.
>
> I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
> so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
> there different base teas available?
>
> Mike

How a good Lapsang is judged I leave for others. My favorites are the ones
that bring me back to tarry boat peers and the smell of the sea. I just know
what I like in this regard.

Michael

Lewis 1/28/04

> "Dog Ma 1" (reply w/o spam)> writes:
>
>> OK, trying again to start a new thread...
>>
>> "Mike Petro" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> [...]
>>> I am curious how a truly good Lapsang is judged? The smoke tends to be
>>> so powerful that it covers up the subtleties of the base tea. Are
>>> there different base teas available?
>>
>> I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
>> whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?)
>
> Yes!
>
>> Lagavulin, Laphroaig and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and
>> body. very lightly peated whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky
>> ones without the body just don't work for me. In fact, I find that I
>> drink the smoky ones with less than 50% added water, which makes
>> them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness and body in
>> balance with smoke.

Aha!!** My cupboard contains a 10 year old Laphroaig, and a somewhat older
one which I charge five dollars just to look at. Smokey. Grand. A man's
whiskey. Indeed. Never thought of this comparison either. Well, Lew.....
>
> I'm certainly no expert on whisky (in fact, I haven't tried the ones
> you named), but I find myself not returning to the smoky ones
> (e.g. Oban) and preferring those that are relatively smoke-free
> (e.g. Dalmore, Macallan Cask Strength.) As for dilution, for me
> adding water changes the taste so much that I prefer to drink it
> straight in tiny sips. I love the way the vapor fills my mouth and
> nose. This works for me even at 68% alcohol (Macallan CS.)

Lew, I never knew.
These are the more "honeyed," are they not?
Screw tea. Let's move on.

Home rule for Scotland.

Michael

Mike Petro > wrote:
> It probably would have worked if you left the "RE" off. The newsgroup
> readers assume the "RE" is a follow up to an original thread.

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. If you look around in your
news reader, you'll probably find an option to "view all headers", or
something similar. Two important ones you might see are "Message-ID" and
"References". The message-id is a string that's unique for each message
posted to usenet, and the references are a list of message ids that
preceeded this one in the thread. The references header is how news
readers do threading, not by subject lines.

So changing the subject line in any way won't do it; you need to use
your news reader's "post article" command, instead of "post followup".
Also, some newsreaders let you modify the headers of the post before you
send it, and clearing out the references header will work too.

--David

Lewis 1/28/04

>
>> Screw tea. Let's move on.
>
> Good thing this group isn't moderated.
>
>> Home rule for Scotland.
>
> Brooklyn, too.


Lew, are you telling me we're *still* ruled from the mainland? Damn.
Drinking Dan Cong and listening to Steeleye Span. Yum.


Michael

*snip*
> I never thought about it before, but I have the same reaction to malt
> whiskies. (Anyone else here enjoy a drop o'the true?) Lagavulin, Laphroaig
> and Talisker seem to me to balance smoke and body. very lightly peated
> whiskies are fine, too. But really smoky ones without the body just don't
> work for me. In fact, I find that I drink the smoky ones with less than 50%
> added water, which makes them pretty burny on the tongue, to keep sweetness
> and body in balance with smoke.
>
> -DM

Have you tried any of the Highland Park line? They've got a higher
degree of peatiness than any of the non-island whiskies I've found and
more finess IMO than the Islays (or pretty much anything else). Still
though, when it's a blast of smoke I'm looking for Laphroaig CS fills
the bill very nicely. Highland Park for elegance, Talisker for
grandeur, Laphroaig for power.

Cameron

"abl" > wrote in message thlink.net>...
> Hello,
>
> I'm new to this newsgroup and to the world of fine teas in general and have
> a few questions. A couple of days ago when I was shopping in my local Asian
> supermarket, I stopped by the housewares section and saw two teapots that
> looked like they were yixing teapots. They were hidden behind some Japanese
> iron teapots but these were clay ones and had Chinese chops on the bottom.
> There was a plain one for about $25 and one with a dragon theme design for
> $35.
>
> My question is, what are the chances that these are made from real yixing
> clay? Are lower quality yixing teapots common enough that they might show
> up in an Asian supermarket? If they are made from some other type of clay,
> would they retain the tea flavor and become seasoned like a yixing one? I
> can't really ask anyone there about them since a) my Chinese isn't good
> enough to ask the right questions and b) if you've ever been in an Asian
> supermarket, you know customer service isn't their strong suit. Is it worth
> it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?
>
> Alan

There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
*gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay). Next, look
at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

There are many different types of clay used in yixing-ware items and
these clays are often mixed together. The two simple tests above work
for all genuine yixing pots that I have encountered thus far, but may
not work for all clays.

I have never seen a good yixing pot in Chinatown, though your's may be
better than mine. My source of choice nowadays is mandjs.com. I
bought a set of two Zhou Jian Hua pots (around $50) and one by Zhang
Quan Lin (also $50). All three are excellent and quite reasonably
priced. After using the ZQL pot less than a dozen times (and avoiding
any of my more esoteric seasoning methods) it has already acquired a
pronounced tea fragrance. I haven't bought one of his cheap pots yet,
but some look quite good.

Cheers,

Cameron

Cameron 2/9/04

>
> There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
> fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
> without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
> *gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
> the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
> ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).

Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?

>Next, look
> at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
> little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

I never thought to do that, but I'm going to now -- with trepedation, I
might add. (Anyone here in the market for recently discovered YiXing
forgeries?)
>
> There are many different types of clay used in yixing-ware items and
> these clays are often mixed together. The two simple tests above work
> for all genuine yixing pots that I have encountered thus far, but may
> not work for all clays.
>
> I have never seen a good yixing pot in Chinatown, though your's may be
> better than mine.

I have it on good authority that the really good quality gungfu pots once
found in NYC Chinatown supermarkets are no more. Nowadays, you mostly get
what you pay for, it seems.

> My source of choice nowadays is mandjs.com. I
> bought a set of two Zhou Jian Hua pots (around $50) and one by Zhang
> Quan Lin (also $50). All three are excellent and quite reasonably
> priced. After using the ZQL pot less than a dozen times (and avoiding
> any of my more esoteric seasoning methods) it has already acquired a
> pronounced tea fragrance. I haven't bought one of his cheap pots yet,
> but some look quite good.

Very encouraging. Thanks muchly. (I'm pondering as we speak.) Thanks too for
the information above.

Michael

Michael Plant > wrote in message >...
> Cameron 2/9/04
>
> >
> > There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
> > fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
> > without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
> > *gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
> > the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
> > ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).
>
> Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
> ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
> heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?
>
*snip*

The ring test is also quite effective at judging relative quality
between actual yixing pots be they zisha, zhuni, duan ni, or whatever
clay. I have a Zhou Jian Hua pot made of zhuni, and a Zhang Quan Lin
pot of mixed brown zisha and some yellow clay (probably duan ni) that
have incredibly high, steely ring tones and make very good tea. You
may be right that a lesser clay can still have a high ring tone, you
seem to have greater knowledge of pottery than me, but I've never seen
a yixing forgery that had a particularly high ring. There are a
number of other tests for yixing, but the two I gave are the easiest
for novices.

Here are some tests of quality for a Yixing pot:

1. Check the fit of the lid. It should fit tightly. When rotated it
should not bind or become loose and rattle, but rotate smoothly. With
the spout pointed at the ground, the lid should not fall out.

2. When pouring (see if you can get the shop owner to let you try it
out with water) you should be able to stop the stream by covering the
vent hole in the lid. As long as the vent hole is blocked, the teapot
should let only a few drops out, at most, even when the spout is
pointing at the ground.

3. With the pot full of water, plug the spout with a fingertip and
invert the pot. The lid should not fall out. I recommend having a
hand or towel ready to catch the lid just in case *grin*.

4. The pot should pour smoothly and with vigour, emptying itself in a
few seconds.

5. When you look at the inside of the pot you can expect to see
some shallow toolmarks running radially out from the center. What you
don't want to see is any gouges or projections in the clay. Lower
quality work often has small fragments of clay that weren't removed
before firing and are now stuck to the walls

6. This is a really qualitative test that takes a bit of experience.
The clay should look "lively" even after being boiled. Good clay has
a natural bright sheen (take a look at "Traditional" by Fan Xiao Long
and "Copy of Drum" by Fan Chen Xia on mandjs to see what I mean).
Even good rough-textured mixed clays will have some of this
liveliness. Low quality clay tends to look quite dull after the
initial boiling to break it in. Apparently some unscrupulous makers
wax their pots to make them appear shiny, this coating disappears
after boiling.

I hope this helps in your search. I consider it small, but I hope
appropriate, thanks for your various informative posts and reviews.

Good Hunting,

Cameron Lewis

Cameron 2/10/04


> Michael Plant > wrote in message
> >...
>> Cameron 2/9/04
>>
>>>
>>> There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
>>> fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
>>> without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
>>> *gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
>>> the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
>>> ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay).
>>
>> Cameron, my instincts tell me that a lesser clay, fired high, would also
>> ring thus. Perhaps, we are saying that a lesser clay would not tolerate the
>> heat required to vitrify the clay to that degree?
>>
> *snip*
>
> The ring test is also quite effective at judging relative quality
> between actual yixing pots be they zisha, zhuni, duan ni, or whatever
> clay. I have a Zhou Jian Hua pot made of zhuni, and a Zhang Quan Lin
> pot of mixed brown zisha and some yellow clay (probably duan ni) that
> have incredibly high, steely ring tones and make very good tea. You
> may be right that a lesser clay can still have a high ring tone, you
> seem to have greater knowledge of pottery than me, but I've never seen
> a yixing forgery that had a particularly high ring. There are a
> number of other tests for yixing, but the two I gave are the easiest
> for novices.
>
> Here are some tests of quality for a Yixing pot:
>
> 1. Check the fit of the lid. It should fit tightly. When rotated it
> should not bind or become loose and rattle, but rotate smoothly. With
> the spout pointed at the ground, the lid should not fall out.
>
> 2. When pouring (see if you can get the shop owner to let you try it
> out with water) you should be able to stop the stream by covering the
> vent hole in the lid. As long as the vent hole is blocked, the teapot
> should let only a few drops out, at most, even when the spout is
> pointing at the ground.
>
> 3. With the pot full of water, plug the spout with a fingertip and
> invert the pot. The lid should not fall out. I recommend having a
> hand or towel ready to catch the lid just in case *grin*.
>
> 4. The pot should pour smoothly and with vigour, emptying itself in a
> few seconds.
>
> 5. When you look at the inside of the pot you can expect to see
> some shallow toolmarks running radially out from the center. What you
> don't want to see is any gouges or projections in the clay. Lower
> quality work often has small fragments of clay that weren't removed
> before firing and are now stuck to the walls
>
> 6. This is a really qualitative test that takes a bit of experience.
> The clay should look "lively" even after being boiled. Good clay has
> a natural bright sheen (take a look at "Traditional" by Fan Xiao Long
> and "Copy of Drum" by Fan Chen Xia on mandjs to see what I mean).
> Even good rough-textured mixed clays will have some of this
> liveliness. Low quality clay tends to look quite dull after the
> initial boiling to break it in. Apparently some unscrupulous makers
> wax their pots to make them appear shiny, this coating disappears
> after boiling.
>
> I hope this helps in your search. I consider it small, but I hope
> appropriate, thanks for your various informative posts and reviews.
>
> Good Hunting,
>
> Cameron Lewis

Yes, it's really helpful, both for new information and review of the known.
I'm realizing more and more that I perhaps got taken by SilkRoadTrade since
their pots fail most of your tests, but still, no flaw in them, with the
exception of one of the pots, is fatal. I'm learning a lot, so it's worth
it. BTW, the pots I got from SRTrade are between 4.5 and 6 ounces, have a
bright brick fire engine red/orange clay with sheen, some of that nasty
nubbing within, and some of the shallow tool marks you mention. A mixed
blessing.

I'm off to look at the pots you mention. What about her "Emperor's Lantern"
and the others made of similar clay? What's your feeling there?

Michael

(Cameron Lewis) wrote in message om>...
> There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
> fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
> without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
> *gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
> the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
> ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay). Next, look
> at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
> little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.

Yixing clay is found throughout the hilly southern area of the Yixing
region of China. Geologists have pinpointed the origins of the clay in
an area comprised of sedimentary lake deposits. Clay contains minerals
which naturally produce a variety of earthy hues across the spectrum,
ranging from a pale golden yellow to a soothing shade of deep purple.
A principal factor in determining the depth of the color is the
concentration of iron in the clay. The temperature used when firing
the clay can create variations in the color as well.

There are different varieties of Yixing clay:

1. Zhu Ni is the rarest of them all. This is because it is known that
Zhu Ni or Vermillion Red clay is limited in quantity. Much of this
type of clay had been excavated in large quantities in the second half
of the 20th century. As a result, it is depleted. It is said that such
teapots would now costs thousands of dollars.

2. Duan Ni (or Banshanlu Ni) is a type of yellowish clay. This type of
teapot is still rather common and can be found in large quantities.
Unlike the Zhu Ni it is not known to have been depleted.

Both Zhu Ni and Duan Ni have countless types of imitations. Many of
them are dyed clay to achieve the vermillion red or yellowish colors.
Some unscrupulous teapots dealers even used ordinary red clay teapots
and pass them off as Zhu Ni teapots.

3. Zisha is the most popular. It is also very common. It has been the
representative colors of clay teapots from China. It also has
imitations in the form of dyed clay. Original Purple clay from Yixing
is said to have the best qualities for making teapots. Zisha clays are
also fairly sandy, so another name for Yixing teapots is "purple sand
teapots."

Yixing clay pottery is a mixture of three soils: the purple soil, the
green soil and the red soil. The three soils are mixed according to
need and the color desired. Then, it is fired at various temperatures
depending on the soil composition. Various firing temperatures and
clay content will create different "ring" and color.

Thanks for all the replies. Since I first started this thread, I ended up
buying the teapot from the Asian market with the dragon theme. Although it
may not be a 'true' Yixing teapot, I think it will function the same and I
really liked the design. I tried some of your tests and the pot has a high
ringing tone and some shiny flecks (almost all of which washed out when I
first bought it). It also has the shallow toolmarks without any gouges, so
it appears to be a decent quality pot. So far I've been using it for Pu'erh
tea and the teapot has a very slight tea smell, but when I did a taste test
compared to tea prepared in a regular glass pot, the tea made in the clay
pot definitely tasted stronger. Maybe because it held the heat in better?

I've also purchased two other pots since I first posted. One was a small
slate grey teapot purchased at a local Ten Ren tea shop. When I took it
home I noticed a small Ten Ren symbol on the bottom, so I definitely know
its not a true Yixing pot. I'm guessing that it will perform the same
anyways. It has a nice Yin-Yang design to it that I liked, which somehow
adds to my enjoyment of preparing the tea. The second pot is a small brown
clay pot I got from Silk Road Trade that I plan to use for oolongs. On
close inspection that one appears to be a lower level of finish than the one
I bought in the market.

Like Michael said, I am learning a lot. I have my eye on a teapot offered
by mandjs.com, even though I don't know what kind of tea I would brew in it
yet. If some of the inexpensive pots they offer are still true Yixing pots,
then maybe I can find out what the difference between higher and lower
quality teapots are.

"Cameron Lewis" > wrote in message
m...
> "abl" > wrote in message
thlink.net>...
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm new to this newsgroup and to the world of fine teas in general and
have
> > a few questions. A couple of days ago when I was shopping in my local
Asian
> > supermarket, I stopped by the housewares section and saw two teapots
that
> > looked like they were yixing teapots. They were hidden behind some
Japanese
> > iron teapots but these were clay ones and had Chinese chops on the
bottom.
> > There was a plain one for about $25 and one with a dragon theme design
for
> > $35.
> >
> > My question is, what are the chances that these are made from real
yixing
> > clay? Are lower quality yixing teapots common enough that they might
show
> > up in an Asian supermarket? If they are made from some other type of
clay,
> > would they retain the tea flavor and become seasoned like a yixing one?
I
> > can't really ask anyone there about them since a) my Chinese isn't good
> > enough to ask the right questions and b) if you've ever been in an Asian
> > supermarket, you know customer service isn't their strong suit. Is it
worth
> > it for a beginner to take a chance and try one out?
> >
> > Alan
>
> There are a few simple tests that tend to distinguish real yixing from
> fakes. Pick up the pot and place the base in the palm of your hand
> without touching the pot with your fingers. Remove the lid and
> *gently* scrape the scrape the rim of the pot with the inner flange of
> the lid. The scraping should produce a fairly high, almost metallic,
> ringing tone (a higher tone generally means better clay). Next, look
> at the inside of the pot under bright and direct light; you should see
> little reflective diamond-like flecks in the clay if it is zisha.
>
> There are many different types of clay used in yixing-ware items and
> these clays are often mixed together. The two simple tests above work
> for all genuine yixing pots that I have encountered thus far, but may
> not work for all clays.
>
> I have never seen a good yixing pot in Chinatown, though your's may be
> better than mine. My source of choice nowadays is mandjs.com. I
> bought a set of two Zhou Jian Hua pots (around $50) and one by Zhang
> Quan Lin (also $50). All three are excellent and quite reasonably
> priced. After using the ZQL pot less than a dozen times (and avoiding
> any of my more esoteric seasoning methods) it has already acquired a
> pronounced tea fragrance. I haven't bought one of his cheap pots yet,
> but some look quite good.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Cameron