I decided to try some Shui Hsien from my local tea shoppe over a
commercial brand from Chinatown when I saw snowflakes yesterday. I
drink my share of Chinese black teas like liubao,liuan,shu and one day
eventually order a slab of Qian Liang. Ive never seen it said but I
think Shui Hsien is fermented. The infused leaves are only comparable
to other fermented teas. They look cooked or ripe. The roasted taste
reminds me of a single fermented shu. Sometimes you see the term Lao
Cong which means old bush to describe this tea. In other parlance it
is described as a Rock oolong. It does have the long twisted dry leaf
of the Rock teas. I have a wide selection of those and no taste
comparison. Looks like I have something to research when the first
blizzard arrives.

Jim

Space Cowboy > writes:

> I decided to try some Shui Hsien from my local tea shoppe over a
> commercial brand from Chinatown when I saw snowflakes yesterday. I
> drink my share of Chinese black teas like liubao,liuan,shu and one
> day eventually order a slab of Qian Liang. Ive never seen it said
> but I think Shui Hsien is fermented. The infused leaves are only
> comparable to other fermented teas. They look cooked or ripe.

You mean the way the leaves are stiff, not supple like sheng Pu'er or
not-very-roasted oolong? I don't know this for a fact, but I surmise
it's the heat (roasting or pile fermentation) that embrittles the
leaves. I'd love to see something authoritative about this.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I compare it to puer pile fermentation that creates loose shu which I
call single fermentation. When the pile fermentation is cut short it
is called mao which is steamed and pressed into sheng cakes. The
factories do another proprietary fermentation which I call double
fermentation which is typically compressed into shu cakes. The only
other fire roasted tea I have is Lapsang Souchong. You can smell the
smoke and the wet leaves an oxidized reddish oolong. Unfortunately
when I plug in Shui Hsien fermentation into Google I get the 125k hits
that use fermentation when they mean oxidation. I just cant get
around the infused black leaf which looks fermented to me.

Jim

On Sep 22, 7:40 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Space Cowboy > writes:
> > I decided to try some Shui Hsien from my local tea shoppe over a
> > commercial brand from Chinatown when I saw snowflakes yesterday. I
> > drink my share of Chinese black teas like liubao,liuan,shu and one
> > day eventually order a slab of Qian Liang. Ive never seen it said
> > but I think Shui Hsien is fermented. The infused leaves are only
> > comparable to other fermented teas. They look cooked or ripe.
>
> You mean the way the leaves are stiff, not supple like sheng Pu'er or
> not-very-roasted oolong? I don't know this for a fact, but I surmise
> it's the heat (roasting or pile fermentation) that embrittles the
> leaves. I'd love to see something authoritative about this.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

I'm very fond of Shui Hsiens, but I've never had one that really
resembled shu at all. I've always considered them a Wuyi Shan yan cha
variant, like a da hong pao with a sour/tart overtone. Perhaps yours
was an odd sub-variety or perhaps even a different tea that improperly
borrowed the shui hsien label?

-Charles

Space Cowboy > writes:
>
> On Sep 22, 7:40 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > Space Cowboy > writes:
> > > I decided to try some Shui Hsien from my local tea shoppe over a
> > > commercial brand from Chinatown when I saw snowflakes yesterday. I
> > > drink my share of Chinese black teas like liubao,liuan,shu and one
> > > day eventually order a slab of Qian Liang. Ive never seen it said
> > > but I think Shui Hsien is fermented. The infused leaves are only
> > > comparable to other fermented teas. They look cooked or ripe.
> >
> > You mean the way the leaves are stiff, not supple like sheng Pu'er or
> > not-very-roasted oolong? I don't know this for a fact, but I surmise
> > it's the heat (roasting or pile fermentation) that embrittles the
> > leaves. I'd love to see something authoritative about this.
> >
> I compare it to puer pile fermentation that creates loose shu which I
> call single fermentation. When the pile fermentation is cut short it
> is called mao which is steamed and pressed into sheng cakes.

No, maocha isn't pile-fermented before being pressed into sheng (raw,
green) cakes. Pile fermentation is the defining characteristic of shu
(cooked, ripe) Pu'er, whether loose or (later) pressed.

It's true that some sheng these days is subjected to oolong-style
bruising and oxidation or fermentation these days before being
pressed. But pile fermentation is a whole other thing: a microbial
process that generates its own heat as it progresses.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Okay Ill settle for charcoal roast to describe making HS. Charcoal is
often used to describe shu. HS was never one of my favorite teas till
I started to appreciate shu or black teas in general. Why looking
around on the Internet yesterday I saw enough Shades of Shui to
indicate the taste might vary enough. What is your opinion of the
variety.

Jim

On Sep 22, 2:39 pm, Iggy > wrote:
> I'm very fond of Shui Hsiens, but I've never had one that really
> resembled shu at all. I've always considered them a Wuyi Shan yan cha
> variant, like a da hong pao with a sour/tart overtone. Perhaps yours
> was an odd sub-variety or perhaps even a different tea that improperly
> borrowed the shui hsien label?
>
> -Charles

On Sep 23, 8:23*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Okay Ill settle for charcoal roast to describe making HS. *Charcoal is
> often used to describe shu. *HS was never one of my favorite teas till
> I started to appreciate shu or black teas in general. Why looking
> around on the Internet yesterday I saw enough Shades of Shui to
> indicate the taste might vary enough. *What is your opinion of the
> variety.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sep 22, 2:39 pm, Iggy > wrote:
>
> > I'm very fond of Shui Hsiens, but I've never had one that really
> > resembled shu at all. *I've always considered them a Wuyi Shan yan cha
> > variant, like a da hong pao with a sour/tart overtone. *Perhaps yours
> > was an odd sub-variety or perhaps even a different tea that improperly
> > borrowed the shui hsien label?
>
> > -Charles

Well, it is one of my main staples and I can say that it is such a
wildly divergent mix that the name alone almost means nothing. I have
had Shui Xian's that are barely roasted and have a more greenish
oolong flavor all the way to what I can easily say was the best I have
and unfortunately probably will ever have since I cannot find more
which was double roasted and so brittle and baked that it was almost
charcoal. Almost is the key word here because it was so expertly
crafted that it was at the brink of charcoal/ruin but not quite and
instead it was just magical. The leaves wouldn't even soften until
after 4-5 steeps.

Sometimes the first infusion is the only one worth anything in that
the smoky/charcoal/raisiny/tobacco flavor is just on the outside of
the leaf and after one infusion it is all given up and you are left
with a mid to poor oolong and nothing more.

A while back Houde Asian art had one that is so different but
enjoyable which was chocolatey and smooth and had characteristics and
flavors I've not seen in any other Shui Xian.

After a few years now of dedication I can say what I look for first is
a very heavy roast, the heavier and deeper the better. It doesn't
guarantee that it will be any good, just that the chances are better.
The bad part is that it is so hard to find anything along these lines
since no one seems to be heavily roasting their tea anymore and even
the ones listed as heavy roasted are barely medium.

- Dominic

You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
on discount. I would say after four steeps I could still dip the leaf
in an ink well and be legible. This is the first tea Ive gotten from
a tea shoppe that is an order of magnitude better (night and day) than
what I could find on commercial ethnic shelves like SeaDyke in this
case. There are a couple of more commercial brands I might try since
I now have a reference point.

Jim

On Sep 23, 6:38 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Sep 23, 8:23 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > Okay Ill settle for charcoal roast to describe making HS.

....the shu angle still isnt a stretch...

> all the way to what I can easily say was the best I have
> and unfortunately probably will ever have since I cannot find more
> which was double roasted and so brittle and baked that it was almost
> charcoal. Almost is the key word here because it was so expertly
> crafted that it was at the brink of charcoal/ruin but not quite and
> instead it was just magical. The leaves wouldn't even soften until
> after 4-5 steeps.
>
> - Dominic

On Sep 24, 11:44*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
> on discount. *I would say after four steeps I could still dip the leaf
> in an ink well and be legible. *This is the first tea Ive gotten from
> a tea shoppe that is an order of magnitude better (night and day) than
> what I could find on commercial ethnic shelves like SeaDyke in this
> case. *There are a couple of more commercial brands I might try since
> I now have a reference point.
>
> Jim
>

I will buy what you have left. Not joking. (or pass along the shop and
I will call them instantly.)

- Dominic

I could have used the word closeout instead of discount. I didnt pick
up any extra. Ill check with the shoppe owner over the weekend and
let you know if there is any left. Im also going to another Puer
tasting this weekend. Ill take some along and compare to the Chinese
shoppe for curiosity sake and let you know. I dont think it too hard
from your description for others to know a source if they have some.
I did.

Jim

On Sep 24, 10:58 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Sep 24, 11:44 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
> > on discount.
>
> I will buy what you have left. Not joking. (or pass along the shop and
> I will call them instantly.)
>
> - Dominic

On Sep 24, 2:33*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> I could have used the word closeout instead of discount. *I didnt pick
> up any extra. *Ill check with the shoppe owner over the weekend and
> let you know if there is any left. *Im also going to another Puer
> tasting this weekend. *Ill take some along and compare to the Chinese
> shoppe for curiosity sake and let you know. *I dont think it too hard
> from your description for others to know a source if they have some.
> I did.
>
> Jim

You'd think it wouldn't be that hard... but it is. Many times I do
find shui xian that is heavily roasted but is just terrible, there is
a difference between actual charcoal and charcoal-like shui xian
Charcoal-like I search for in vain weekly. I've been totally out for
almost a year and haven't found a replacement, the chocolately Houde
version (which is good but just not what I want in a shui xian) is the
only thing besides some teaspring (which is too lightly roasted) that
has kept me going.

I'd happily take tips/recommendations from anyone who might know of a
place I can find some.

- Dominic

No luck at the near local Chinese shoppe yesterday. Just light and
medium roasts. One of the jars actually said taste similar to Puer!
Ill try the local English shoppe probablly tomorrow to see if they
have any left. Im having some right now to help my Puer hangover.

Jim

On Sep 24, 12:33 pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> I could have used the word closeout instead of discount. I didnt pick
> up any extra. Ill check with the shoppe owner over the weekend and
> let you know if there is any left. Im also going to another Puer
> tasting this weekend. Ill take some along and compare to the Chinese
> shoppe for curiosity sake and let you know. I dont think it too hard
> from your description for others to know a source if they have some.
> I did.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sep 24, 10:58 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 24, 11:44 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
> > > on discount.
>
> > I will buy what you have left. Not joking. (or pass along the shop and
> > I will call them instantly.)
>
> > - Dominic

Alas nothing left at the local English tea shoppe. I got a curt we
are not going to carry THAT again. I said too bad because I really
liked it and from what I understand from somebody who knows the piece
de la resistance. Now I have to put mine in the vault for special
occasions. Nah Im over that. One day Ill shed a tear and say goodbye
to the last cup.

Jim

On Sep 28, 6:31 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> No luck at the near local Chinese shoppe yesterday. Just light and
> medium roasts. One of the jars actually said taste similar to Puer!
> Ill try the local English shoppe probablly tomorrow to see if they
> have any left. Im having some right now to help my Puer hangover.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sep 24, 12:33 pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > I could have used the word closeout instead of discount. I didnt pick
> > up any extra. Ill check with the shoppe owner over the weekend and
> > let you know if there is any left. Im also going to another Puer
> > tasting this weekend. Ill take some along and compare to the Chinese
> > shoppe for curiosity sake and let you know. I dont think it too hard
> > from your description for others to know a source if they have some.
> > I did.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Sep 24, 10:58 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 24, 11:44 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > > You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
> > > > on discount.
>
> > > I will buy what you have left. Not joking. (or pass along the shop and
> > > I will call them instantly.)
>
> > > - Dominic

On Oct 1, 11:09*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Alas nothing left at the local English tea shoppe. *I got a curt we
> are not going to carry THAT again. *I said too bad because I really
> liked it and from what I understand from somebody who knows the piece
> de la resistance. *Now I have to put mine in the vault for special
> occasions. *Nah Im over that. *One day Ill shed a tear and say goodbye
> to the last cup.
>
> Jim
>
> On Sep 28, 6:31 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > No luck at the near local Chinese shoppe yesterday. *Just light and
> > medium roasts. *One of the jars actually said taste similar to Puer!
> > Ill try the local English shoppe probablly tomorrow to see if they
> > have any left. *Im having some right now to help my Puer hangover.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Sep 24, 12:33 pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > I could have used the word closeout instead of discount. *I didnt pick
> > > up any extra. *Ill check with the shoppe owner over the weekend and
> > > let you know if there is any left. *Im also going to another Puer
> > > tasting this weekend. *Ill take some along and compare to the Chinese
> > > shoppe for curiosity sake and let you know. *I dont think it too hard
> > > from your description for others to know a source if they have some.
> > > I did.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > > On Sep 24, 10:58 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > > > On Sep 24, 11:44 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > > > You describe almost to a T what I got from my local ENGLISH tea shoppe
> > > > > on discount.
>
> > > > I will buy what you have left. Not joking. (or pass along the shop and
> > > > I will call them instantly.)
>
> > > > - Dominic

Damn, I started to spread my last two of three cups a bit thin when I
was nearing the end to conserve and then when there was no hope left I
just had one awesome gaiwan full that I steeped until I could read
through the leaves. I dream of that last cup when I drink just about
every other tea. It slightly ruined me, and that was 2 years or so
ago.

I saw that ITC has what they deem to be a very highly charcoal roasted
one, at a pretty high price, has anyone tried that? I may tip-toe in
with the 1oz sampler to see if it is as roasted as I hope, most often
they come up short of that double roasted I had. I have also been
thinking of re-roasting some that I currently have but don't know the
best method. I was thinking like ~150 degrees in the oven on a baking
sheet maybe. I just don't know the best temp and time to bake at,
either way it still will lack that charcoal which makes it so special.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > writes:

> [...]
> I saw that ITC has what they deem to be a very highly charcoal roasted
> one, at a pretty high price, has anyone tried that? I may tip-toe in
> with the 1oz sampler to see if it is as roasted as I hope, most often
> they come up short of that double roasted I had. I have also been
> thinking of re-roasting some that I currently have but don't know the
> best method. I was thinking like ~150 degrees in the oven on a baking
> sheet maybe. I just don't know the best temp and time to bake at,
> either way it still will lack that charcoal which makes it so special.

Maybe that charcoal taste requires .... charcoal?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Oct 1, 2:24*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "Dominic T." > writes:
> > [...]
> > I saw that ITC has what they deem to be a very highly charcoal roasted
> > one, at a pretty high price, has anyone tried that? I may tip-toe in
> > with the 1oz sampler to see if it is as roasted as I hope, most often
> > they come up short of that double roasted I had. I have also been
> > thinking of re-roasting some that I currently have but don't know the
> > best method. I was thinking like ~150 degrees in the oven on a baking
> > sheet maybe. I just don't know the best temp and time to bake at,
> > either way it still will lack that charcoal which makes it so special.
>
> Maybe that charcoal taste requires .... charcoal?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Yes, that was what I was getting at (although the second roast should
bring out other notes of the fabled double roasted I speak of . But
they use either bamboo charcoal or that small olive pit type
charcoal... both of which are not available to me and I'm sure require
some major skill to take the tea itself to that almost-charcoal state.
By the time I source everything I need, become skilled in the art, and
get a satisfactory result I could probably fly to the source and
commission a few kilos.

Although I always wanted to take up a fairly useless (in modern terms
and monetarily) trade like that or hand forged swords/blacksmithing.

- Dominic