This "news" article passed me this morning so I took a few minutes and
wrote down my thoughts on the subject at my teasphere.wordpress.com
blog. I thought it might spur some discussion so I'll post it here,
although I have a feeling most opinions will be similar on it.


Let me start by saying that I don’t put much stock in the myriad
health benefits/miracles made about tea, and similarly I disregard
“studies” like this one released today on ABC’s site about a tea/
throat cancer link: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerP...7182731&page=1

I will never understand why folks need to believe a simple drink will
somehow cure everything from obesity to bad skin to lack of friends. I
drink liters of green and oolong tea every day and I still get sick
throughout the year, I’m still a bit overweight, I’m beginning to
bald, break out at times… I do have some good friends though. So
there’s that. I always say that if all the tea I drink keeps me alive
one extra day, then that is one more cup I get to drink. Nothing more,
nothing less. However, I don’t blindly ignore the fact that I’ve
probably ingested my share of toxic chemicals, heavy metals,
pesticides, etc. as I steep and eek out every last drop from my leaf
each day. Everything is always in balance. Yin and Yang.

Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
best. It couldn’t be the increase in air pollution and highly evolved
mutant sicknesses. It couldn’t be the fact that we’ve been unknowing
guinea pigs for so many untested and unregulated “advances” in the
name of a quicker buck like genetically modified foods, chemical
additives, or a whole host of other lovely things. It must be hot tea.
That’s it. Surely.

- Dominic

On Mar 27, 8:58*am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> This "news" article passed me this morning so I took a few minutes and
> wrote down my thoughts on the subject at my teasphere.wordpress.com
> blog. I thought it might spur some discussion so I'll post it here,
> although I have a feeling most opinions will be similar on it.
>
> Let me start by saying that I don’t put much stock in the myriad
> health benefits/miracles made about tea, and similarly I disregard
> “studies” like this one released today on ABC’s site about a tea/
> throat cancer link:http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerP...nt/story?id=71...
>
> I will never understand why folks need to believe a simple drink will
> somehow cure everything from obesity to bad skin to lack of friends. I
> drink liters of green and oolong tea every day and I still get sick
> throughout the year, I’m still a bit overweight, I’m beginning to
> bald, break out at times… I do have some good friends though. So
> there’s that. I always say that if all the tea I drink keeps me alive
> one extra day, then that is one more cup I get to drink. Nothing more,
> nothing less. However, I don’t blindly ignore the fact that I’ve
> probably ingested my share of toxic chemicals, heavy metals,
> pesticides, etc. as I steep and eek out every last drop from my leaf
> each day. Everything is always in balance. Yin and Yang.
>
> Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
> many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
> it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
> best. It couldn’t be the increase in air pollution and highly evolved
> mutant sicknesses. It couldn’t be the fact that we’ve been unknowing
> guinea pigs for so many untested and unregulated “advances” in the
> name of a quicker buck like genetically modified foods, chemical
> additives, or a whole host of other lovely things. It must be hot tea.
> That’s it. Surely.
>
> - Dominic

They list a number of factors. I'd rather work on raising my socio/
economis status and drink my tea at the temperature I want. But then,
I like my tea just above lukewarm anyway. Toci

On Mar 27, 10:59*am, toci > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 8:58*am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > This "news" article passed me this morning so I took a few minutes and
> > wrote down my thoughts on the subject at my teasphere.wordpress.com
> > blog. I thought it might spur some discussion so I'll post it here,
> > although I have a feeling most opinions will be similar on it.
>
> > Let me start by saying that I don’t put much stock in the myriad
> > health benefits/miracles made about tea, and similarly I disregard
> > “studies” like this one released today on ABC’s site about a tea/
> > throat cancer link:http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerP...nt/story?id=71...
>
> > I will never understand why folks need to believe a simple drink will
> > somehow cure everything from obesity to bad skin to lack of friends. I
> > drink liters of green and oolong tea every day and I still get sick
> > throughout the year, I’m still a bit overweight, I’m beginning to
> > bald, break out at times… I do have some good friends though. So
> > there’s that. I always say that if all the tea I drink keeps me alive
> > one extra day, then that is one more cup I get to drink. Nothing more,
> > nothing less. However, I don’t blindly ignore the fact that I’ve
> > probably ingested my share of toxic chemicals, heavy metals,
> > pesticides, etc. as I steep and eek out every last drop from my leaf
> > each day. Everything is always in balance. Yin and Yang.
>
> > Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
> > many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
> > it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
> > best. It couldn’t be the increase in air pollution and highly evolved
> > mutant sicknesses. It couldn’t be the fact that we’ve been unknowing
> > guinea pigs for so many untested and unregulated “advances” in the
> > name of a quicker buck like genetically modified foods, chemical
> > additives, or a whole host of other lovely things. It must be hot tea.
> > That’s it. Surely.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> They list a number of factors. *I'd rather work on raising my socio/
> economis status and drink my tea at the temperature I want. *But then,
> I like my tea just above lukewarm anyway. * * *Toci

I actually watched an independent documentary on Iraq fairly recently
where they tested crops, especially Okra which has a high amount of
water and concentrates radioactivity/toxins/chemicals in the fruit and
they were showing the meteoric rise in a number of cancers and birth
defects in the local population since the U.S.'s most recent war's
bombings which included many "dirty" bombs which have completely
contaminated their water and soil. My guess is that same water is
being used to make tea, and I'd also venture to guess that that
probably has a larger impact on the findings than the temperature.

I didn't get into all of that in my short comments but yes, the
article did list other factors to be fair. It just drives me insane
when these types of isolated studies, done out of context, are then
used to try to broadly brush (and scare) the general public for no
reason at all... which was where more of my ire was placed. I think
it's all a shame truthfully.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > writes:

> [...]
> Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
> many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
> it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
> best.

I've no idea how good that study was. But to say it's *impossible*
that tea-drinking humans over the millennia might have missed a link
between tea drinking and incidence of throat cancer - a fairly rare
disease - you should bring some evidence along. Humans didn't even
notice that microbes caused diseases until the 19th century, after
all!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

i dont think the unhealthy effects are related to tea but to hot
beverages in genereal. i once red a scientific study (actually it was a
meta study, comparing and reviewieng a whole lot of different studies)
about mate that suggestet the same thing.

it also is in accordance with my basic understanding of things..
whenever you damage cells (which you do by drinking to hot, first your
tongue and then your throat) new cells have to be created, and whenever
you create a new cell there a chance of something going wrong
if enough goes wrong --> cancer

also you get more of the taste if you dont drink your tea to hot



> This "news" article passed me this morning so I took a few minutes and
> wrote down my thoughts on the subject at my teasphere.wordpress.com
> blog. I thought it might spur some discussion so I'll post it here,
> although I have a feeling most opinions will be similar on it.
>
>
> Let me start by saying that I don’t put much stock in the myriad
> health benefits/miracles made about tea, and similarly I disregard
> “studies” like this one released today on ABC’s site about a tea/
> throat cancer link: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerP...7182731&page=1
>
> I will never understand why folks need to believe a simple drink will
> somehow cure everything from obesity to bad skin to lack of friends. I
> drink liters of green and oolong tea every day and I still get sick
> throughout the year, I’m still a bit overweight, I’m beginning to
> bald, break out at times… I do have some good friends though. So
> there’s that. I always say that if all the tea I drink keeps me alive
> one extra day, then that is one more cup I get to drink. Nothing more,
> nothing less. However, I don’t blindly ignore the fact that I’ve
> probably ingested my share of toxic chemicals, heavy metals,
> pesticides, etc. as I steep and eek out every last drop from my leaf
> each day. Everything is always in balance. Yin and Yang.
>
> Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
> many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
> it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
> best. It couldn’t be the increase in air pollution and highly evolved
> mutant sicknesses. It couldn’t be the fact that we’ve been unknowing
> guinea pigs for so many untested and unregulated “advances” in the
> name of a quicker buck like genetically modified foods, chemical
> additives, or a whole host of other lovely things. It must be hot tea.
> That’s it. Surely.
>
> - Dominic

On Mar 27, 4:48*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> I've no idea how good that study was. *But to say it's *impossible*
> that tea-drinking humans over the millennia might have missed a link
> between tea drinking and incidence of throat cancer - a fairly rare
> disease - you should bring some evidence along. *Humans didn't even
> notice that microbes caused diseases until the 19th century, after
> all!
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

But do you honestly see large numbers of cases of throat cancer in
Chinese, or English, or Middle Eastern people? And over a prolonged
period of time? I know my family (Italian) will only drink coffee or
tee if it is "swearing hot" meaning like served just off rapid boil.
It's been that way for some time and my great-grandfather lived to
102+ and my grandmother is now 96 and no one has had throat cancer.

I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.

I have read similar studies where scientists try to claim that Koreans
suffer from tons more cases of stomach cancer than any other race due
to the prolific use of chilis/paste/powder. It's just silly. I guess
the Szechuan people are magical.

The point I was, and am, making is that none of these studies can
account for the million variables involved here. I'm not saying it is
impossible that it may happen, but I am saying it is completely
impossible to claim to have a decisive study on any such topic. At
best they are anecdotal and junk science, and at worst (as is often
the case) supposedly "safe" studied foods and chemicals end up doing
massive damage not realized until far too late.

- Dominic

On 2009-03-27, Dominic T. > wrote:
>
> But do you honestly see large numbers of cases of throat cancer in
> Chinese, or English, or Middle Eastern people? And over a prolonged
> period of time?

Yes, you do, though in the cases I heard about, diet in that area may
also be a contributing factor.

http://www.teadrunk.org/viewtopic.php?id=41
(links to http://www.mingpaotor.com/htm/News/20081201/tcbk1.htm (Chinese
language)

w

On Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:35:15 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
> wrote:

>On Mar 27, 4:48*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>> I've no idea how good that study was. *But to say it's *impossible*
>> that tea-drinking humans over the millennia might have missed a link
>> between tea drinking and incidence of throat cancer - a fairly rare
>> disease - you should bring some evidence along. *Humans didn't even
>> notice that microbes caused diseases until the 19th century, after
>> all!
>>
>> /Lew
>> ---
>> Lew Perin /
>
>But do you honestly see large numbers of cases of throat cancer in
>Chinese, or English, or Middle Eastern people? And over a prolonged
>period of time? I know my family (Italian) will only drink coffee or
>tee if it is "swearing hot" meaning like served just off rapid boil.
>It's been that way for some time and my great-grandfather lived to
>102+ and my grandmother is now 96 and no one has had throat cancer.
>
>I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
>family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.

Maybe very hot drinks actually prevent throat cancer! Maybe cancer
cells can't handle heat as well as normal cells. After all, the body
raises its own temperature when it's sick. ;-)

On Mar 27, 6:35*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> The point I was, and am, making is that none of these studies can
> account for the million variables involved here. I'm not saying it is
> impossible that it may happen, but I am saying it is completely
> impossible to claim to have a decisive study on any such topic. At
> best they are anecdotal and junk science, and at worst (as is often
> the case) supposedly "safe" studied foods and chemicals end up doing
> massive damage not realized until far too late.
>
> - Dominic

studies are there to try to link, cause & effect blah blah blah
you never know if the risk factors and exposures are going to apply to
a person.
some smokers never get lung cancer
some who never smoked get lung cancer

there is a causal relationship mucosal damage in the esophagus leading
to cancer.
smoking
alcohol
smoking+alcohol together are even "worse" offenders
hot liquids
acid reflux
esophageal cancer is a terrible situation.

it just depends how much "risk" you're willing to assume from the
"exposures".

i dont drink HOT HOT because i cant really enjoy all the flavor and
aromas
and then it also burns my tongue so that doesnt help.

"The perfect temperature for tea is two degrees hotter than just
right". ~ attributed to Terri Guillemets.

Nigel at Teacraft

"Dominic T." > writes:

> On Mar 27, 4:48Â*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > I've no idea how good that study was. Â*But to say it's *impossible*
> > that tea-drinking humans over the millennia might have missed a link
> > between tea drinking and incidence of throat cancer - a fairly rare
> > disease - you should bring some evidence along. Â*Humans didn't even
> > notice that microbes caused diseases until the 19th century, after
> > all!
> >
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
>
> But do you honestly see large numbers of cases of throat cancer in
> Chinese, or English, or Middle Eastern people? And over a prolonged
> period of time? I know my family (Italian) will only drink coffee or
> tee if it is "swearing hot" meaning like served just off rapid boil.
> It's been that way for some time and my great-grandfather lived to
> 102+ and my grandmother is now 96 and no one has had throat cancer.
>
> I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
> family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.
>
> I have read similar studies where scientists try to claim that Koreans
> suffer from tons more cases of stomach cancer than any other race due
> to the prolific use of chilis/paste/powder. It's just silly. I guess
> the Szechuan people are magical.
>
> The point I was, and am, making is that none of these studies can
> account for the million variables involved here. I'm not saying it is
> impossible that it may happen, but I am saying it is completely
> impossible to claim to have a decisive study on any such topic. At
> best they are anecdotal and junk science, and at worst (as is often
> the case) supposedly "safe" studied foods and chemicals end up doing
> massive damage not realized until far too late.

I'm well aware that if you want to show one thing causes another, no
retrospective study can supply the level of statistical support of a
randomized prospective study. But it's a long way from that to
calling a given retrospective study "laughable" without going into the
details at all. There are good retrospective studies and bad ones.
If you asked a medical researcher if it would be better to do away
with retrospective studies altogether, you'd get a withering stare.

Look, Dominic, we all live our lives largely guided by intuitions of
what's safe and reasonable. It would be impractical to devote
conscious thought to every little thing we do. But that doesn't mean
our intuitions are always right. And over time, folk wisdom does
change, sometimes because of medical research.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

This or a similar article made the front page of the SF Chronicle. My
father-in-law said he knew tea causes cancer. It doesnt matter Id
never win any argument anyway. I got grilled on how hot I drink tea.
Smug coffee drinkers. I have a young nephew who is the only other one
who drinks tea on a regular basis because last year I gave him some
tea blossoms. I gave him a hard won toucha won in save face
negotations over some puer in Chinatown. I started out in San Diego
and ended up in SF visiting the in-laws saving on more hotel bills. I
get to the SD airport and found out our 3 billion dollar all weather
airport was closed due to a snow storm. Technically it was still open
but nobody could get to work. They didnt think that one out.

Jim

Dominic T. wrote:
> This "news" article passed me this morning so I took a few minutes and
> wrote down my thoughts on the subject at my teasphere.wordpress.com
> blog. I thought it might spur some discussion so I'll post it here,
> although I have a feeling most opinions will be similar on it.
>
>
> Let me start by saying that I don’t put much stock in the myriad
> health benefits/miracles made about tea, and similarly I disregard
> “studies” like this one released today on ABC’s site about a tea/
> throat cancer link: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/CancerP...7182731&page=1
>
> I will never understand why folks need to believe a simple drink will
> somehow cure everything from obesity to bad skin to lack of friends. I
> drink liters of green and oolong tea every day and I still get sick
> throughout the year, I’m still a bit overweight, I’m beginning to
> bald, break out at times… I do have some good friends though. So
> there’s that. I always say that if all the tea I drink keeps me alive
> one extra day, then that is one more cup I get to drink. Nothing more,
> nothing less. However, I don’t blindly ignore the fact that I’ve
> probably ingested my share of toxic chemicals, heavy metals,
> pesticides, etc. as I steep and eek out every last drop from my leaf
> each day. Everything is always in balance. Yin and Yang.
>
> Tea (not to mention tons of other hot beverages) has been drunk in
> many degrees of temperature for millenia, and to believe that just now
> it can somehow be definitively linked to throat cancer is laughable at
> best. It couldn’t be the increase in air pollution and highly evolved
> mutant sicknesses. It couldn’t be the fact that we’ve been unknowing
> guinea pigs for so many untested and unregulated “advances” in the
> name of a quicker buck like genetically modified foods, chemical
> additives, or a whole host of other lovely things. It must be hot tea.
> That’s it. Surely.
>
> - Dominic

On Mar 27, 11:35*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> I know my family (Italian) will only drink coffee or
> tee if it is "swearing hot" meaning like served just off rapid boil.
> It's been that way for some time and my great-grandfather lived to
> 102+ and my grandmother is now 96 and no one has had throat cancer.
>
> I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
> family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.


The report in question (quoted in Science Daily) concerns tea as drunk
in Iran. From experience most tea offered to me in Iran was from a
samovar - concentrate topped up with ever heated water from the spigot
- and yes it was hot (I never actually measured its temperature) but I
certainly let it cool before drinking it. I confess that my personal
preference is for hot tea and I have always had at the back of my mind
the damage that over hot food and beverages can cause on ingestion -
some work was published on this years ago relating to esophageal
cancer in yerba mate drinkers. The Iran report mentions several
temperatures for tea - Warm or Lukewarm (65 deg C or less). Hot tea
(65-69 deg C) and Very Hot tea (70 deg C or more) and, in my ignorance
I expected when I checked the temperatures of several of my mugs of
tea today, to find them Very Hot. Actually I find that what I
consider to be "as hot as I can handle" is 62 deg C, and "comfortably
hot" is 58 deg C. The Science Daily summary mentions that in the UK
there is "an average temperature preference of 56-60 deg C among
healthy populations" - which puts me at the hot end of average - but
routinely drinking it at 70 deg C plus beggars belief !

Nigel at Teacraft

I think the reason the Brits dont run around with trachea tubes is
because they add cream to their tea or to protect their eggshell
porcelain cups whichever comes first.

Jim

On Apr 3, 1:40 am, Nigel > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:35 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
> > family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.
>
> The Science Daily summary mentions that in the UK
> there is "an average temperature preference of 56-60 deg C among
> healthy populations" - which puts me at the hot end of average - but
> routinely drinking it at 70 deg C plus beggars belief !
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

On Apr 3, 1:55*pm, wrote:
> I think the reason the Brits dont run around with trachea tubes is
> because they add cream to their tea or to protect their eggshell
> porcelain cups whichever comes first.
>
> Jim
>
> On Apr 3, 1:40 am, Nigel > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 11:35 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > > I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
> > > family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.
>
> > The Science Daily summary mentions that in the UK
> > there is "an average temperature preference of 56-60 deg C among
> > healthy populations" - which puts me at the hot end of average - but
> > routinely drinking it at 70 deg C plus beggars belief !
>
> > Nigel at Teacraft- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Brits do not put cream into their tea, they use milk, however some
Germans put cream into tea - personally do not care for either.

usually tea goes down the esophagus
unless you enjoy tea in your lungs- then you choose to snort it into
the trachea

i seem to like mine no hotter than 55C

On Apr 3, 12:40*pm, Nigel > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:35*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > I know my family (Italian) will only drink coffee or
> > tee if it is "swearing hot" meaning like served just off rapid boil.
> > It's been that way for some time and my great-grandfather lived to
> > 102+ and my grandmother is now 96 and no one has had throat cancer.
>
> > I drink things very hot as well, shy of what other members of my
> > family drink but still very very hot. I'll take my chances.
>
> The report in question (quoted in Science Daily) concerns tea as drunk
> in Iran. *From experience most tea offered to me in Iran was from a
> samovar - concentrate topped up with ever heated water from the spigot
> - and yes it was hot (I never actually measured its temperature) but I
> certainly let it cool before drinking it. *I confess that my personal
> preference is for hot tea and I have always had at the back of my mind
> the damage that over hot food and beverages can cause on ingestion -
> some work was published on this years ago relating to esophageal
> cancer in yerba mate drinkers. *The Iran report mentions several
> temperatures for tea - Warm or Lukewarm *(65 deg C or less). Hot tea
> (65-69 deg C) and Very Hot tea (70 deg C or more) and, in my ignorance
> I expected when I checked the temperatures of several of my mugs of
> tea today, to find them Very Hot. *Actually I find that what I
> consider to be "as hot as I can handle" is 62 deg C, and "comfortably
> hot" is 58 deg C. *The Science Daily summary mentions that in the UK
> there is "an average temperature preference of 56-60 deg C among
> healthy populations" - which puts me at the hot end of average - but
> routinely drinking it at 70 deg C plus beggars belief !
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

How hot would your Tea be at higher altitudes?
Or how rapidly will your "hot" tea cool in temperatures below, lets
say, 10 degrees C?
What will be the temperature of that first sip and the last drop?
Dont we "cup our palm around" and use a hot cup of tea to also warm us
up on a cold wintry night?
Dont we nurse our tea, as we do a good scotch?
Dont you wish tea remained hot till you dip the last piece of toast or
biscuit in it - its done, and you know it!
Have you seen people "sucking" hot tea into their mouth with a sound
and drinking it?
Or for that matter, pouring it out on the saucer and then drinking it?
This guy would have finished his cup and be on his way, before I
contemplate raising my steaming hot cup for that first cautious sip.
Now, who has it hotter?
What I mean to say here is that not only the temperature, but even the
"habits" of the people need to be examined. Temperature alone as a
criteria appears too abstract to me.
And drinking very hot tea in the desert heat, and thereby scalding
your innards sounds like inviting trouble in any case.
As per Ayurveda, the right temperature to consume any food is your
body temperatue. And also as per ayurveda, all food and herbs have
medicinal properties. And when used as a medicine, the method of use
varies as per conditions and symptoms.

Tea Cheers!
Jayesh S Pandya