Us "lucky" Western Pennsylvanians have finally received the wondrous
gift of having a Teavana open up in a local mall. I have had to endure
at least (truly) a hundred conversations in the past few months
because everyone knows I love tea. They are so happy and believe they
have had the greatest tea the world has to offer in their "green tea
mixed with fruit flavored rooibos" or some other god awful blend sold
for some exorbitant price. There is no way to then explain that the
subtlety of a real quality green tea is the true magic and that no
even their "pure German sugar crystals" are not necessary and
completely bogus.

I applaud a company for trying to bring tea to the masses but
Teavana's approach is just wrong. It is preying on unknowledgable
folks and essentially a wall of lies propagated on the simple fact of
the ignorance of their customers. Instead of actually trying to teach
them or clue them into the amazing world of tea the salespeople tout
the virtues of their ingenuitea-like devices and exotic made up tales
of their blends. They are rapidly expanding and opening new stores so
they are gaining quite a following, I guess I should just give in and
enjoy over-flavored blends and revel in the amazing "$220 tea of the
month club" as well as the $100+ cheap import Tetsubin everyone else
flocks to me in excitement about.

At first I tried to be happy for just the excitement about tea, then
as the multitudes kept coming with their stories and brochures they so
helpfully brought me I tried to explain that while it's cool they are
excited about tea there is much more there and much cheaper, better,
real teas, now I have resigned to Teavana and it's allure and just
feign happiness and discuss the latest "Honeydew White Tea with German
sugar crystals and milk" (that's really something they offer and I've
heard about twice already).

I get that folks like SquarePeg here and the many Joe Sixpacks could
care less about the magic and rich history and tradition and the
people and ceremony and on and on... but I just can't get behind it in
any way knowing what I know and having experienced what I have with
tea.

- Dominic

Ive been to Teavana once. Id go more often if they had a selection
that wasnt mostly blends. Ive gotten use to paying $10/oz for teas I
can find locally without waiting for China Post. My local tea shoppe
had a sale this weekend of discount blended teas the owner got from
his German supplier. I didnt even bother to go. I did ride by on the
bike and thought the place was a voting precinct. Nobody cares if I
think it is more fun to shop a herbal store and creating their own.
The only reason I dont run a tea shoppe is Id have to give people what
the want.

PS Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.

Jim

On Nov 4, 7:48 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> Us "lucky" Western Pennsylvanians have finally received the wondrous
> gift of having a Teavana open up in a local mall. I have had to endure
> at least (truly) a hundred conversations in the past few months
> because everyone knows I love tea. They are so happy and believe they
> have had the greatest tea the world has to offer in their "green tea
> mixed with fruit flavored rooibos" or some other god awful blend sold
> for some exorbitant price. There is no way to then explain that the
> subtlety of a real quality green tea is the true magic and that no
> even their "pure German sugar crystals" are not necessary and
> completely bogus.
>
> I applaud a company for trying to bring tea to the masses but
> Teavana's approach is just wrong. It is preying on unknowledgable
> folks and essentially a wall of lies propagated on the simple fact of
> the ignorance of their customers. Instead of actually trying to teach
> them or clue them into the amazing world of tea the salespeople tout
> the virtues of their ingenuitea-like devices and exotic made up tales
> of their blends. They are rapidly expanding and opening new stores so
> they are gaining quite a following, I guess I should just give in and
> enjoy over-flavored blends and revel in the amazing "$220 tea of the
> month club" as well as the $100+ cheap import Tetsubin everyone else
> flocks to me in excitement about.
>
> At first I tried to be happy for just the excitement about tea, then
> as the multitudes kept coming with their stories and brochures they so
> helpfully brought me I tried to explain that while it's cool they are
> excited about tea there is much more there and much cheaper, better,
> real teas, now I have resigned to Teavana and it's allure and just
> feign happiness and discuss the latest "Honeydew White Tea with German
> sugar crystals and milk" (that's really something they offer and I've
> heard about twice already).
>
> I get that folks like SquarePeg here and the many Joe Sixpacks could
> care less about the magic and rich history and tradition and the
> people and ceremony and on and on... but I just can't get behind it in
> any way knowing what I know and having experienced what I have with
> tea.
>
> - Dominic

On Nov 4, 12:46*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Ive been to Teavana once. *Id go more often if they had a selection
> that wasnt mostly blends. *Ive gotten use to paying $10/oz for teas I
> can find locally without waiting for China Post. *My local tea shoppe
> had a sale this weekend of discount blended teas the owner got from
> his German supplier. *I didnt even bother to go. *I did ride by on the
> bike and thought the place was a voting precinct. *Nobody cares if I
> think it is more fun to shop a herbal store and creating their own.
> The only reason I dont run a tea shoppe is Id have to give people what
> the want.
>
> PS *Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.
>
> Jim

I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
(like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
that goes along with it.

I buy tea at times from a few local coffee roasters that sell loose
tea. The tea is poor to passable in quality and most often grossly
overpriced but they sell it by the actual name and list the country or
estate of origin and even though they are coffee folks they do a very
good job of teaching and explaining the offerings even if it isn't a
masterclass. People walk out with barely passable tea but at least
some actual knowledge.

As you and others here know I have kicked around the idea of opening a
shop of my own for a few years, I've run the numbers many ways and
with many different angles. The problem always was to stay afloat you
have to either go evil like Teavana where it is about exploiting
customers or you go good and offer great tea with great atmosphere and
service but ultimately fail financially. I actually have a specific
account where I have been saving to, even at a loss, go that second
route eventually. My only hope is that my numbers and research proves
wrong and I surprise myself.

I'm sure the folks at Teavana started off right, but found that the
top sellers (and top profit margins) were the flavor blends and rather
than try to correct that they went with it and then began exploiting
it further and further. I'll be placing an order with Seven Cups and
Stephane Erler this week happily.

- Dominic

Im not that hung up on pedigrees. I need to know country of origin at
a minimum. I know selling a mysterious high price specialty tea is
not that uncommon. I think a vendor can have connections and doesnt
want his competition to know. I dont think it is fool the public
perse. What I cant forgive is a markup of everyday teas even allowing
for expenses. As I said before my local tea shoppe is about ready to
start franchising. Their business model, suburbia with disposable
income and enough on the shelf to keep types like me interested. Ill
send that inlaw in Taiwan an email and see what he knows about Six
Summits.

Jim

On Nov 4, 4:39 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Nov 4, 12:46 pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
....Teavana sticker shock at the mall...

> I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
> though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
> imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
> no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
> (like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
> elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
> that goes along with it.
>
> I buy tea at times from a few local coffee roasters that sell loose
> tea. The tea is poor to passable in quality and most often grossly
> overpriced but they sell it by the actual name and list the country or
> estate of origin and even though they are coffee folks they do a very
> good job of teaching and explaining the offerings even if it isn't a
> masterclass. People walk out with barely passable tea but at least
> some actual knowledge.
>
> As you and others here know I have kicked around the idea of opening a
> shop of my own for a few years, I've run the numbers many ways and
> with many different angles. The problem always was to stay afloat you
> have to either go evil like Teavana where it is about exploiting
> customers or you go good and offer great tea with great atmosphere and
> service but ultimately fail financially. I actually have a specific
> account where I have been saving to, even at a loss, go that second
> route eventually. My only hope is that my numbers and research proves
> wrong and I surprise myself.
>
> I'm sure the folks at Teavana started off right, but found that the
> top sellers (and top profit margins) were the flavor blends and rather
> than try to correct that they went with it and then began exploiting
> it further and further. I'll be placing an order with Seven Cups and
> Stephane Erler this week happily.
>
> - Dominic

"Dominic T." > writes:

> On Nov 4, 12:46*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > [...Teavana...]
> > PS *Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.
>
> I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
> though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
> imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
> no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
> (like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
> elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
> that goes along with it.

For me, this is an important issue. When a vendor conceals
information that would enable me look elsewhere to try other teas that
might be comparable to the vendor's own, I feel betrayed. In my
experience, there are very few vendors in the USA who never hide the
rightful names of teas. (Note that I'm not asking for detailed
information like which wholesaler or farmer they bought from.)

I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
rightful names.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
Post-election tea: 30-year old Pu'er bought in Taiwan by a friend - thanks!

On Nov 5, 9:54*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "Dominic T." > writes:
> > On Nov 4, 12:46*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > > [...Teavana...]
> > > PS *Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.
>
> > I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
> > though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
> > imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
> > no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
> > (like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
> > elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
> > that goes along with it.
>
> For me, this is an important issue. *When a vendor conceals
> information that would enable me look elsewhere to try other teas that
> might be comparable to the vendor's own, I feel betrayed. *In my
> experience, there are very few vendors in the USA who never hide the
> rightful names of teas. *(Note that I'm not asking for detailed
> information like which wholesaler or farmer they bought from.)
>
> I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
> rightful names.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> Post-election tea: 30-year old Pu'er bought in Taiwan by a friend - thanks!

I don't have a list of domestic vendors and as I tried to think of
them I realized I was coming up with a mix of domestic and overseas so
I just gave up I think most of the higher touted vendors we all
deal with and discuss all do this properly. And most of them can and
will happily even give you that deeper info if you ask. The only time
I care about farmer/wholesaler is for a particular tea I truly love (a
top 10 personal favorite) and then it is only because I'd love to know
more about a tea I treasure. I don't need it to make the initial
purchase. I want the real tea name and the country or location of
origin, I don't need any more or less. It comes down to honesty and
good business and I'll support that anyday domestic or not. I wish
more American businesses would get over this secrecy==sales mentality,
how many of our most beloved tea vendors have been around a long time
and doing just fine without that.

- Dominic

Yes, I'm also a Open Source/Creative Commons fan... and extremely
happy today.

"Dominic T." > writes:

> On Nov 5, 9:54*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > "Dominic T." > writes:
> > > On Nov 4, 12:46*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > > > [...Teavana...]
> > > > PS *Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.
> >
> > > I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
> > > though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
> > > imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
> > > no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
> > > (like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
> > > elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
> > > that goes along with it.
> >
> > For me, this is an important issue. *When a vendor conceals
> > information that would enable me look elsewhere to try other teas that
> > might be comparable to the vendor's own, I feel betrayed. *In my
> > experience, there are very few vendors in the USA who never hide the
> > rightful names of teas. *(Note that I'm not asking for detailed
> > information like which wholesaler or farmer they bought from.)
> >
> > I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
> > rightful names.
>
> I don't have a list of domestic vendors and as I tried to think of
> them I realized I was coming up with a mix of domestic and overseas so
> I just gave up I think most of the higher touted vendors we all
> deal with and discuss all do this properly.

I'm having trouble thinking of one that *always* does this properly.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Nov 5, 12:17*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "Dominic T." > writes:
> > On Nov 5, 9:54*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > > "Dominic T." > writes:
> > > > On Nov 4, 12:46*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > > > > [...Teavana...]
> > > > > PS *Try their Six Summits and tell me what you think.
>
> > > > I honestly don't think I'll be spending any of my money there, even
> > > > though I'd imagine the six summits is good to some degree... I'd
> > > > imagine it has a proper tea analog under the proper name but I'd have
> > > > no way of knowing or country of origin from their secretive nature
> > > > (like Adagio) which I guess they think keeps customers from going
> > > > elsewhere or ever becoming knowledgeable about the tea and the story
> > > > that goes along with it.
>
> > > For me, this is an important issue. *When a vendor conceals
> > > information that would enable me look elsewhere to try other teas that
> > > might be comparable to the vendor's own, I feel betrayed. *In my
> > > experience, there are very few vendors in the USA who never hide the
> > > rightful names of teas. *(Note that I'm not asking for detailed
> > > information like which wholesaler or farmer they bought from.)
>
> > > I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
> > > rightful names.
>
> > I don't have a list of domestic vendors and as I tried to think of
> > them I realized I was coming up with a mix of domestic and overseas so
> > I just gave up I think most of the higher touted vendors we all
> > deal with and discuss all do this properly.
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of one that *always* does this properly.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

I'd say Seven Cups and IPOT (In Pursuit of Tea) are two domestic
options with proper info, Seven Cups maybe a bit moreso but both
fit... Those two came to mind quickly initially, if I thought on it I
could probably come up with a couple more.

- Dominic

I walk into Seven Cups and recognize every Chinese tea on the shelf.
I walk into Red Blossom and never heard of their proprietary specialty
Heirloom San Ling Xi. The fact that there is even less Google
information than Six Summits doesnt mean the vendor is pulling a fast
one. When I go into a tea store Im looking for something I dont
have.

Jim

On Nov 5, 1:01 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Nov 5, 12:17 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> > > > I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
> > > > rightful names.
>
> > > I don't have a list of domestic vendors and as I tried to think of
> > > them I realized I was coming up with a mix of domestic and overseas so
> > > I just gave up I think most of the higher touted vendors we all
> > > deal with and discuss all do this properly.
>
> > I'm having trouble thinking of one that *always* does this properly.
>
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
>
> I'd say Seven Cups and IPOT (In Pursuit of Tea) are two domestic
> options with proper info, Seven Cups maybe a bit moreso but both
> fit... Those two came to mind quickly initially, if I thought on it I
> could probably come up with a couple more.
>
> - Dominic

Space Cowboy > writes:

> I walk into Seven Cups and recognize every Chinese tea on the shelf.
> I walk into Red Blossom and never heard of their proprietary specialty
> Heirloom San Ling Xi. The fact that there is even less Google
> information than Six Summits doesnt mean the vendor is pulling a fast
> one. When I go into a tea store Im looking for something I dont
> have.

I tried Googling in Chinese for Six Summits using a few different
Chinese renderings I could think of. I came up empty. Especially
with my limited Chinese, this isn't conclusive, but I'm suspicious.
Some people reading this are fluent in Chinese and could improve on
my, uh, quest. Any volunteers for this mission?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Me too. There are a couple of single characters and three double
characters meaning summit. I was looking at the .TW sites. One of
them indicated six summits was a tourist site from the nature of the
URLS. I have to go back and run the permutations. I also looked for
six summits tea no hits. I should have been looking for six summits
oolong from the nature of what little is said about it elsewhere
besides Teavana.

Jim

On Nov 6, 9:00 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Space Cowboy > writes:
> > I walk into Seven Cups and recognize every Chinese tea on the shelf.
> > I walk into Red Blossom and never heard of their proprietary specialty
> > Heirloom San Ling Xi. The fact that there is even less Google
> > information than Six Summits doesnt mean the vendor is pulling a fast
> > one. When I go into a tea store Im looking for something I dont
> > have.
>
> I tried Googling in Chinese for Six Summits using a few different
> Chinese renderings I could think of. I came up empty. Especially
> with my limited Chinese, this isn't conclusive, but I'm suspicious.
> Some people reading this are fluent in Chinese and could improve on
> my, uh, quest. Any volunteers for this mission?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

> I tried Googling in Chinese for Six Summits using a few different
> Chinese renderings I could think of. *I came up empty. *Especially
> with my limited Chinese, this isn't conclusive, but I'm suspicious.
> Some people reading this are fluent in Chinese and could improve on
> my, uh, quest. *Any volunteers for this mission?

That's interesting that Teavana has registered "six summits oolong" as
a trademark.

But lots of famous places in China are so numbered. Like "six peaks",
"three rivers", or whatever. Name a geographical feature, add a number
to it, and then you come up with a number of the famous places.
Chinese are into numbers.

For example, in Fujian, there is a place in the northeast part of
Pingnan county (in Fujian's northeast) called "six cliffs" (liu yan)
- but may be also translated as "six peaks" in english . It's in a
provicial park. Each one of those cliffs has a separate name, like
"Big White Cliff", "Guanyin Cliff", "Hexagon Cliff", "Maitreya Cliff",
"Giant Buddha Cliff'", "Snake Group Cliff". I've never been there. But
it sounds like an interesting place to visit.

BTW, there are a few words that literally mean "summit" in Chinese.
First, there is ding "¶¥", then there is dian "µß", and there is also
another dian "áÛ", and then there are also various alternate character
variants of those. And there is also feng "·å", which can alternatively
be written as "�o", and there are other variants of that character.

I've had the same problem with Teavana. The only way I could think to
"solve" the problem is the online tea rating service I mentioned
earlier, perhaps at some point branching out into a magazine for tea
'snobs' that like something other than over-flavored over-sugared
teas. I'm still not sure how best to approach the issue, but I tend to
think that some sort of internet option is best, especially if persons
have saved up money and considered bricks and mortar. I can't think
of any reason off-hand why various existing tea blogs couldn't be
combined, or various persons who contribute to this list could also
contribute to a magazine of sorts.

Although last time I brought this up someone (Spacecowboy? Dominic?)
mentioned that they had relative success with google searches. I have
not and am tired of more or less all the brick and mortar options I
have encountered more or less everywhere I have lived (except Tokyo,
which I suspect continues to offer better than Western PA).

Here is what I am using assuming my Wee Eee from Taiwan can handle
Chinese:

·å ·å [feng1] /peak/summit/
Žp áÛ [dian1] /summit/
í”·å ¶¥·å [ding3 feng1] /peak/summit/
í”¶Ë ¶¥¶Ë [ding3 duan1] /summit/peak/
í”üc ¶¥µã [ding3 dian3] /summit/peak/
¸ß·å ¸ß·å [gao1 feng1] /peak/summit/height/

While I am here does anybody know the £Â£ï£Ð£ï£Í£ï£Æ£ï¡¡£æ£ï£ò¡¡²è

£Ê£é£í

On Nov 6, 11:35 am, niisonge > wrote:
> BTW, there are a few words that literally mean "summit" in Chinese.
> First, there is ding "¶¥", then there is dian "µß", and there is also
> another dian "áÛ", and then there are also various alternate character
> variants of those. And there is also feng "·å", which can alternatively
> be written as "�o", and there are other variants of that character.

On Nov 6, 2:15*pm, wrote:
> Although last time I brought this up someone (Spacecowboy? Dominic?)
> mentioned that they had relative success with google searches. *I have
> not and am tired of more or less all the brick and mortar options I
> have encountered more or less everywhere I have lived (except Tokyo,
> which I suspect continues to offer better than Western PA).

Hey Joel, no wasn't me... in fact I was the one who mentioned I had
tried the same thing and have the scars to prove it It is almost
impossible to properly catalog and offer "reviews" for tea. It is just
so vastly different than wine or even food. It is like trying to hit a
fast moving target. Each vendor, each batch from each vendor, each
season, each year, each estate, etc. all have huge influence on
everything from taste, color, roasting, handling, and on and on... and
that is all *before* you get to the insanity-inducing problem of
individual brewing (water quality and type, temp, teaware, different
senses, etc.). There are just so many variables.

I keep trying to think up a unique way to handle the problem because
it intrigues me, but every time I hit a major snag which spells death.
Basically it is a schema/design issue. Sorting by tea estate/source
would naturally be first, but that is so hard to determine that it
causes the first big hurdle. So you can categorize by year and
region... then season and then the different teas but there has to be
some note as to the vendor or the actual estate/source as well
somewhere in there. A well taken photo of the dry leaf and color of
the liquor is also very important for both documentation and to have
something to compare your efforts to. The only real "standard" is in
the brewing if one uses the international competition method of 3g tea/
150cc boiling water/6 minutes steep time. This generally produces a
result that isn't what you would normally drink for pleasure, but it
is the standard and has been in use for a long time successfully.

Even with the loss of a few highly respected members over time there
is still a wealth of knowledge and experience here and enough to
easily produce a high quality production (Magazine, book, what have
you) but I think the coordination and logistics would be a high
hurdle... I'd love to be wrong here As for combining blogs, most of
us who blog link to other blogs on tea and since there are relatively
few the web works pretty well... but I find new ones all the time. I
too am from Western PA (I work in Pittsburgh and live about 30-45
minutes NE of the city) so I feel your pain in regards to tea
availability locally... which is why I'd love to open a shop. I share
your passion and ideas but I have just not been able to bring them to
life by myself so far.

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2:15�pm, wrote:
> > Although last time I brought this up someone (Spacecowboy? Dominic?)
> > mentioned that they had relative success with google searches. �I have
> > not and am tired of more or less all the brick and mortar options I
> > have encountered more or less everywhere I have lived (except Tokyo,
> > which I suspect continues to offer better than Western PA).
>
> Hey Joel, no wasn't me... in fact I was the one who mentioned I had
> tried the same thing and have the scars to prove it It is almost
> impossible to properly catalog and offer "reviews" for tea. It is just
> so vastly different than wine or even food. It is like trying to hit a
> fast moving target. Each vendor, each batch from each vendor, each
> season, each year, each estate, etc. all have huge influence on
> everything from taste, color, roasting, handling, and on and on... and
> that is all *before* you get to the insanity-inducing problem of
> individual brewing (water quality and type, temp, teaware, different
> senses, etc.). There are just so many variables.
>
> I keep trying to think up a unique way to handle the problem because
> it intrigues me, but every time I hit a major snag which spells death.
> Basically it is a schema/design issue. Sorting by tea estate/source
> would naturally be first, but that is so hard to determine that it
> causes the first big hurdle. So you can categorize by year and
> region... then season and then the different teas but there has to be
> some note as to the vendor or the actual estate/source as well
> somewhere in there. A well taken photo of the dry leaf and color of
> the liquor is also very important for both documentation and to have
> something to compare your efforts to. The only real "standard" is in
> the brewing if one uses the international competition method of 3g tea/
> 150cc boiling water/6 minutes steep time. This generally produces a
> result that isn't what you would normally drink for pleasure, but it
> is the standard and has been in use for a long time successfully.
>
> Even with the loss of a few highly respected members over time there
> is still a wealth of knowledge and experience here and enough to
> easily produce a high quality production (Magazine, book, what have
> you) but I think the coordination and logistics would be a high
> hurdle... I'd love to be wrong here As for combining blogs, most of
> us who blog link to other blogs on tea and since there are relatively
> few the web works pretty well... but I find new ones all the time. I
> too am from Western PA (I work in Pittsburgh and live about 30-45
> minutes NE of the city) so I feel your pain in regards to tea
> availability locally... which is why I'd love to open a shop. I share
> your passion and ideas but I have just not been able to bring them to
> life by myself so far.
>
> - Dominic


I was thinking about this problem too, and here are some thoughts:
First, only current season matters. It would be impossible to
cover all or even most teas so it's best to concentrate on a few
from each popular type, e.g. take silver needles and have ratings
of it from several vendors for current season. Then take Yunnan
Gold and also have ratings on it from a few good vendors. For
my taste, I would like to see ratings for Pai Mutan, Assam,
Darjeeling, BLC, dragon well. Actually there was a site a while
ago called 'We Review Teas', they had the right idea. It wasn't
perfect but it was pretty close. One crucial thing is that old
seasons don't show up at all unless you specifically search
for them. It should be possible to make a sortable, filterable
results page, so that you can sort by vendor, by price, by score,
by value (i.e. cheap but pretty good), by type and maybe
something else.

I don't know that much about pu-erhs and aged oolongs. How
much do the offerings change from season to season?

One other thing is that you have to somehow prevent people
from tea shops giving ratings and writing reviews (unless
they disclose from which shop they come from). If there are
2-3 dozen reviewers that should be fine because if one
person constantly gives high ratings to lousy teas from
one store, the bias will become apparent. Therefore
there should be a fairly low limit to reviewers.

The main issue is that there's just not enough people here.
It seems like there's only about 10 people posting semi-
regularly?

Another idea: we should have a seasonal thread that
would give advice for newbies in regard to what teas
are good as an introduction, i.e. not too expensive,
good, tolerant of imprecise brewing, cheap and
fast shipping here in US (and separately noted
UK stores for european tea drinkers).

Just as a quick example: I would recommend
Silver needles and yunnan gold from Hou De,
2003 chen guang he tang green puerh also
from Hou De, and Darjeeling 2nd flush from
IPOT for current season.

And when a new season starts, we would make
a new thread.

> Here is what I am using assuming my Wee Eee from Taiwan can handle
> Chinese:
> ·å ·å [feng1] /peak/summit/
> Žp áÛ [dian1] /summit/
> í”·å ¶¥·å [ding3 feng1] /peak/summit/
> í”¶Ë ¶¥¶Ë [ding3 duan1] /summit/peak/
> í”üc ¶¥µã [ding3 dian3] /summit/peak/
> ¸ß·å ¸ß·å [gao1 feng1] /peak/summit/height/

For a tea name, you wouldn't find so many characters. They reduce to
one character to make it more concise. So it won't be Áù¸ß·åÎÚÁú or Áù¶¥·åÎÚÁú,
it would be more like Áù·åÎÚÁú or Áù¶¥ÎÚÁú or ÁùáÛÎÚÁú or something like that.

Don't forget, you can also add the mountain character "shan" in front
of those too:
ɽ·å
ɽµß
ɽáÛ
ɽ¶¥

And these would also mean summit - or more precisely, the summit of a
mountain.

But again, no Áùɽ·åÎÚÁú or ÁùɽáÛÎÚÁú or Áùɽ¶¥ÎÚÁú.



> While I am here does anybody know the £Â£ï£Ð£ï£Í£ï£Æ£ï¡¡£æ£ï£ò¡¡²è
That would be:
¨Ô¨Ú¨@

"Dominic T." > writes:

> On Nov 5, 12:17*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > "Dominic T." > writes:
> > > On Nov 5, 9:54*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > > > [...]
> > > > I would be interested to have a list of vendors who *always* use teas'
> > > > rightful names.
> >
> > > I don't have a list of domestic vendors and as I tried to think of
> > > them I realized I was coming up with a mix of domestic and overseas so
> > > I just gave up I think most of the higher touted vendors we all
> > > deal with and discuss all do this properly.
> >
> > I'm having trouble thinking of one that *always* does this properly.
>
> I'd say Seven Cups and IPOT (In Pursuit of Tea) are two domestic
> options with proper info, Seven Cups maybe a bit moreso but both
> fit... Those two came to mind quickly initially, if I thought on it I
> could probably come up with a couple more.

I just had a look, and I'm glad to say you're right. Thanks!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

It took most of the afternoon to make sense. I finally got the drop
down box for all the cha2 characters. BoPoMoFo is the only IME that
comes with my Wee Eee.

ллÄã
Jim

On Nov 6, 3:13 pm, niisonge > wrote:
>
> > While I am here does anybody know the £Â£ï£Ð£ï£Í£ï£Æ£ï¡¡£æ£ï£ò¡¡²è
>
> That would be:
> ¨Ô¨Ú¨@

On Nov 6, 4:31*pm, Rainy > wrote:
> Dominic T. wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 2:15 pm, wrote:
> > > Although last time I brought this up someone (Spacecowboy? Dominic?)
> > > mentioned that they had relative success with google searches. I have
> > > not and am tired of more or less all the brick and mortar options I
> > > have encountered more or less everywhere I have lived (except Tokyo,
> > > which I suspect continues to offer better than Western PA).
>
> > Hey Joel, no wasn't me... in fact I was the one who mentioned I had
> > tried the same thing and have the scars to prove it It is almost
> > impossible to properly catalog and offer "reviews" for tea. It is just
> > so vastly different than wine or even food. It is like trying to hit a
> > fast moving target. Each vendor, each batch from each vendor, each
> > season, each year, each estate, etc. all have huge influence on
> > everything from taste, color, roasting, handling, and on and on... and
> > that is all *before* you get to the insanity-inducing problem of
> > individual brewing (water quality and type, temp, teaware, different
> > senses, etc.). There are just so many variables.
>
> > I keep trying to think up a unique way to handle the problem because
> > it intrigues me, but every time I hit a major snag which spells death.
> > Basically it is a schema/design issue. Sorting by tea estate/source
> > would naturally be first, but that is so hard to determine that it
> > causes the first big hurdle. So you can categorize by year and
> > region... then season and then the different teas but there has to be
> > some note as to the vendor or the actual estate/source as well
> > somewhere in there. A well taken photo of the dry leaf and color of
> > the liquor is also very important for both documentation and to have
> > something to compare your efforts to. The only real "standard" is in
> > the brewing if one uses the international competition method of 3g tea/
> > 150cc boiling water/6 minutes steep time. This generally produces a
> > result that isn't what you would normally drink for pleasure, but it
> > is the standard and has been in use for a long time successfully.
>
> > Even with the loss of a few highly respected members over time there
> > is still a wealth of knowledge and experience here and enough to
> > easily produce a high quality production (Magazine, book, what have
> > you) but I think the coordination and logistics would be a high
> > hurdle... I'd love to be wrong here As for combining blogs, most of
> > us who blog link to other blogs on tea and since there are relatively
> > few the web works pretty well... but I find new ones all the time. I
> > too am from Western PA (I work in Pittsburgh and live about 30-45
> > minutes NE of the city) so I feel your pain in regards to tea
> > availability locally... which is why I'd love to open a shop. I share
> > your passion and ideas but I have just not been able to bring them to
> > life by myself so far.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> I was thinking about this problem too, and here are some thoughts:
> First, only current season matters. It would be impossible to
> cover all or even most teas so it's best to concentrate on a few
> from each popular type, e.g. take silver needles and have ratings
> of it from several vendors for current season. Then take Yunnan
> Gold and also have ratings on it from a few good vendors. For
> my taste, I would like to see ratings for Pai Mutan, Assam,
> Darjeeling, BLC, dragon well. Actually there was a site a while
> ago called 'We Review Teas', they had the right idea. It wasn't
> perfect but it was pretty close. One crucial thing is that old
> seasons don't show up at all unless you specifically search
> for them. It should be possible to make a sortable, filterable
> results page, so that you can sort by vendor, by price, by score,
> by value (i.e. cheap but pretty good), by type and maybe
> something else.
>
> I don't know that much about pu-erhs and aged oolongs. How
> much do the offerings change from season to season?
>
> One other thing is that you have to somehow prevent people
> from tea shops giving ratings and writing reviews (unless
> they disclose from which shop they come from). If there are
> 2-3 dozen reviewers that should be fine because if one
> person constantly gives high ratings to lousy teas from
> one store, the bias will become apparent. Therefore
> there should be a fairly low limit to reviewers.
>
> The main issue is that there's just not enough people here.
> It seems like there's only about 10 people posting semi-
> regularly?
>
> Another idea: we should have a seasonal thread that
> would give advice for newbies in regard to what teas
> are good as an introduction, i.e. not too expensive,
> good, tolerant of imprecise brewing, cheap and
> fast shipping here in US (and separately noted
> UK stores for european tea drinkers).
>
> Just as a quick example: I would recommend
> Silver needles and yunnan gold from Hou De,
> 2003 chen guang he tang green puerh also
> from Hou De, and Darjeeling 2nd flush from
> IPOT for current season.
>
> And when a new season starts, we would make
> a new thread.

All good ideas.

Sadly a ton of the great posters have either moved on or left for
other reasons and this place is becoming a shell of what it once was.
Honestly, I've wanted to just give up and move on myself lately but
I've tried to hang around in hopes things might change... but it's not
looking like it. It really pains me to even say it. I have learned so
much here and my tastes have grown and changed in ways that they
hadn't over 12+ years like they did here in just a few.

I don't know what the answer is. I miss the Mike Petros, Michael
Plants, Karstens, Dogmas, etc... I miss really talking and hearing
about tea. Real conversations and knowledge... There are still glowing
embers here and I just wish they'd fan into a flame again.

- Dominic

On 2008-11-07, Dominic T. > wrote:

> Sadly a ton of the great posters have either moved on or left for
> other reasons and this place is becoming a shell of what it once was.
> Honestly, I've wanted to just give up and move on myself lately but
> I've tried to hang around in hopes things might change... but it's not
> looking like it. It really pains me to even say it. I have learned so
> much here and my tastes have grown and changed in ways that they
> hadn't over 12+ years like they did here in just a few.

I have to agree 100% on this.

I feel like the quality of discussion on this newsgroup has gone way
downhill; a lot of the folks who used to post here pretty regularly have
moved to teachat, I think.

For those who are interested in Chinese teas (and, to a lesser extent,
Japanese teas), I guess this is a good time to plug my current project:
http://teadrunk.org/
http://teadrunk.org/viewtopic.php?pid=2

I know not everyone likes web based forums (I don't love them myself),
but I felt like there was a gap in the various online communities out
there, and I am hoping that this one might be able to pick up critical
mass to the point where it becomes useful.

It's still in the early phases; I hope to add more features and improve
the look and feel of the site as time goes on... I'm always happy to
listen to feedback about the site, either by private email or on the
forum for "help / suggestions" on the site.

w

> Sadly a ton of the great posters have either moved on or left for
> other reasons and this place is becoming a shell of what it once was.

Yeah. It is getting pretty dead here. Now, I mostly post on Sanzui.
They got a ton of interesting discussions there. You couldn't read all
of the threads in one day.

I still remember the day I stepped out of the wilderness and found
this group in 95. I think the sum total of what has been said here
will be the reference for all things said about tea. I remember the
first Chinese tea characters I saw posted here by Kuri from Japan.
Yesterday I generated my first tea character using BoPoMoFo without a
copy and paste from some Chinese file. I sometimes wonder about the
people who disappear like Wesley Neal Willams who knew everything
about Yixing but couldnt find any tea in VanCouver BC. I know people
have a life and move on. Maybe theyll come back when they have time
to sit down and think.

Jim

PS I remember my most humiliating momemnt. It was one of those
flames where nobody takes my side and someone said You Helped Me A
Couple Of Years Ago.

On Nov 6, 5:40 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> I don't know what the answer is. I miss the Mike Petros, Michael
> Plants, Karstens, Dogmas, etc... I miss really talking and hearing
> about tea. Real conversations and knowledge... There are still glowing
> embers here and I just wish they'd fan into a flame again.
>
> - Dominic

Can you give me a link where I can find one of your posts there. I
need to study Chinese grammar besides the textbooks.

Jim

On Nov 7, 4:52 am, niisonge > wrote:
> > Sadly a ton of the great posters have either moved on or left for
> > other reasons and this place is becoming a shell of what it once was.
>
> Yeah. It is getting pretty dead here. Now, I mostly post on Sanzui.
> They got a ton of interesting discussions there. You couldn't read all
> of the threads in one day.

> Can you give me a link where I can find one of your posts there.

Sure. Mostly I just reply to other's posts. But occasionally I do post
a question.

Here are a couple I posted responses to:
http://www.sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=65895
http://www.sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=93951

And here is a thread I started:
http://www.sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=90986

I cant see any thread. I also cant get any dialog boxes for Search or
Subscribe. The site must not like overseas traffic.

Jim

PS What about you Lew?

On Nov 7, 7:03 am, niisonge > wrote:
> > Can you give me a link where I can find one of your posts there.
>
> Sure. Mostly I just reply to other's posts. But occasionally I do post
> a question.
>
> Here are a couple I posted responses to:http://www.sanzui.com/bbs/showthread...ad.php?t=93951
>
> And here is a thread I started:http://www.sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=90986

> I cant see any thread. I also cant get any dialog boxes for Search or
> Subscribe. The site must not like overseas traffic.

Oh, I signed out, and now I see what you mean. You get a sign-in
screen. So you have to sign-in before you can see it. If you don't
have an account, then you would have to go to sanzui.com and sign up
for one. Then, at the very top left side you see: ×¢²á. Click on that
and you can sign up.

On 2008-11-07, niisonge > wrote:
>> I cant see any thread. I also cant get any dialog boxes for Search or
>> Subscribe. The site must not like overseas traffic.

> Oh, I signed out, and now I see what you mean. You get a sign-in
> screen. So you have to sign-in before you can see it. If you don't
> have an account, then you would have to go to sanzui.com and sign up
> for one. Then, at the very top left side you see: ????. Click on that
> and you can sign up.

There's also an issue with logging on from Firefox, at least I haven't
been able to login successfully *at all* on Mac or Linux / BSD Firefox,
and neither have others. It works fine in Safari and in other browsers.

w

Looks like you are right. Im using FireFox on my Wee Eee Linux. I
dont even see the characters ×¢²á. I still bet on country blocking..
Okay make me fire up Vista later on today.

Jim

On Nov 7, 8:35 am, Will Yardley >
wrote:
> On 2008-11-07, niisonge > wrote:
>
> >> I cant see any thread. I also cant get any dialog boxes for Search or
> >> Subscribe. The site must not like overseas traffic.
> > Oh, I signed out, and now I see what you mean. You get a sign-in
> > screen. So you have to sign-in before you can see it. If you don't
> > have an account, then you would have to go to sanzui.com and sign up
> > for one. Then, at the very top left side you see: ????. Click on that
> > and you can sign up.
>
> There's also an issue with logging on from Firefox, at least I haven't
> been able to login successfully *at all* on Mac or Linux / BSD Firefox,
> and neither have others. It works fine in Safari and in other browsers.
>
> w

Okay I had to Register on SanZui.Com using Vista IE. While its fresh
there is a terms and agreement window. There is a form for Userid
where you enter the PW and EMAIL twice. I tried to make Google
translator follow the links but got an error from the website. Youll
have to follow the Chinese. It'll take me awhile to figure out the
thread structure. It looks like from the showthread dropdown list
there are arbitrary topics? I bet the software looks at the web
browser id and hasnt added FireFox.

Jim

PS Niisonge if that is a real picture you look like an action hero.

On Nov 7, 9:04 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Looks like you are right. Im using FireFox on my Wee Eee Linux. I
> dont even see the characters ×¢²á. I still bet on country blocking.
> Okay make me fire up Vista later on today.
>
> Jim
>
> On Nov 7, 8:35 am, Will Yardley >
> wrote:
>
> > On 2008-11-07, niisonge > wrote:
>
> > >> I cant see any thread. I also cant get any dialog boxes for Search or
> > >> Subscribe. The site must not like overseas traffic.
> > > Oh, I signed out, and now I see what you mean. You get a sign-in
> > > screen. So you have to sign-in before you can see it. If you don't
> > > have an account, then you would have to go to sanzui.com and sign up
> > > for one. Then, at the very top left side you see: ????. Click on that
> > > and you can sign up.
>
> > There's also an issue with logging on from Firefox, at least I haven't
> > been able to login successfully *at all* on Mac or Linux / BSD Firefox,
> > and neither have others. It works fine in Safari and in other browsers.
>
> > w

My lord guys this sounds like a eulogy. Maybe I dont post often but
read it everytime Im on. I think most of the tea places I have been
reading are having less postings. Give us a few links to some of the
teablogs that are lively you see good discussions on please.
Jenn

> PS Niisonge if that is a real picture you look like an action hero.

Are you talking about the avatar? Gimme a break, the real me is much
better looking than that. LOL.

If you want to see my pic, you can go he
http://picasaweb.google.com/floating...geagle/Family#

When the blogs disappear they come here.

Jim

On Nov 7, 12:36 pm, Jenn > wrote:
> My lord guys this sounds like a eulogy. Maybe I dont post often but
> read it everytime Im on. I think most of the tea places I have been
> reading are having less postings. Give us a few links to some of the
> teablogs that are lively you see good discussions on please.
> Jenn

On Nov 8, 7:56*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> When the blogs disappear they come here.
>
> Jim
>
> On Nov 7, 12:36 pm, Jenn > wrote:
>
> > My lord guys this sounds like a eulogy. Maybe I dont post often but
> > read it everytime Im on. I think most of the tea places I have been
> > reading are having less postings. Give us a few links to some of the
> > teablogs that are lively you see good discussions on please.
> > Jenn

Well, that and I also would rather it be about the information and
resources in one place which is much more powerful than a million
individual bits of unconnected insight. My other big problem is that
"teachat" is run by Adagio, a company I do not support and by using
their forum every page view puts money in their pocket... here it is
purely about the information. No money no hidden agendas.

I don't think i will get anyone to change their minds though but I
would rather my tea chatting be sponsored by a tea vendor we all
actually respect and use.

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> On Nov 8, 7:56�am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > When the blogs disappear they come here.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > On Nov 7, 12:36 pm, Jenn > wrote:
> >
> > > My lord guys this sounds like a eulogy. Maybe I dont post often but
> > > read it everytime Im on. I think most of the tea places I have been
> > > reading are having less postings. Give us a few links to some of the
> > > teablogs that are lively you see good discussions on please.
> > > Jenn
>
> Well, that and I also would rather it be about the information and
> resources in one place which is much more powerful than a million
> individual bits of unconnected insight. My other big problem is that
> "teachat" is run by Adagio, a company I do not support and by using
> their forum every page view puts money in their pocket... here it is
> purely about the information. No money no hidden agendas.
>
> I don't think i will get anyone to change their minds though but I
> would rather my tea chatting be sponsored by a tea vendor we all
> actually respect and use.
>
> - Dominic

I doubt they make anything significant over site maintenance
costs. It would not be surprising if they were losing money
on it. They run it so that people exchange info about their
teas and buy more of 'em. Seems like they're being good-
natured in allowing discussion and recommendation of other
vendors.

I only had a few teas from Adagio, one oolong that I liked
very much and wasn't able to find a similar one anywhere
else, and kind of jasmine tea which was average and
a white tea that was just plain bad. I don't think they
really have anything close to top notch teas but that
one oolong was real nice. And they send them in nice
cans!

For those keeping track the Wee Eee also handles Pinyin to Chinese.
BoPoMoFo requires a tone to narrow down the character selection set.
Unfortunately the Pinyin IME doesnt so the character set is mixed by
tones based on some frequency criteria. Im not complaining since the
various characters I want are at the front of the pack if not the
default first position.

Jim

PS I can see why Lew had an easier time with Chinese on Linux than I
did on Windows. I did learn some stuff on the way which will pay off
on Linux like the Mac already.

On Nov 7, 6:14 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
....WARNING Me talking about Me, I should start my own blog...
> Yesterday I generated my first tea character usingBoPoMoFo without a
> copy and paste from some Chinese file.

> For those keeping track the Wee Eee also handles Pinyin to Chinese.
> BoPoMoFo requires a tone to narrow down the character selection set.
> Unfortunately the Pinyin IME doesnt so the character set is mixed by
> tones based on some frequency criteria. Im not complaining since the
> various characters I want are at the front of the pack if not the
> default first position.

If you're using Windows, there should be various pinyin IMEs that you
can turn on (or off). Right now, I'm using the Microsoft Pinyin IME.
Although, I can use just about any IME. But the Microsoft one works
fine - unless I want to type in Cantonese - then I gotta switch to
another IME. Although that Chinese Pingjam (CPIME) is kind of weird to
use. And that's another point. There are all kinds of IMES that you
can download for free too - and free fonts too.

Another thing, the Microsoft Pinyin IME allows you to switch from
Simplified characters to Traditional characters - while at the same
time still allowing pinyin input. Then, there are is a user-defined
phrase tool - so you can add in combinations of characters that aren't
in the IME already (say like zisha hu) - or something like that. And
in simplified chinese, it has natural learning, so it will learn a lot
of repetitive phrases that you use constantly. Only thing though, it
doesn't switch commonly typed words to the top of the list - and
that's annoying.

So check it out.

BTW, most people in Chinese don't actually use a pinyin IME, they use
WuBi, because they can type faster without inputting full pinyin. And
man, are they fast.

On Nov 10, 9:32*am, niisonge > wrote:
> BTW, most people in Chinese don't actually use a pinyin IME, they use
> WuBi, because they can type faster without inputting full pinyin. And
> man, are they fast.

Sorry, I meant most people in China.