tasting a roasted oolong, i notice that it also has a rather strong
green flavor to it, so im wondering

when they roast the oolong, if the final flavor comes out roasted,
should it NOT have a green flavor?
is this due to incomplete/less roasting that leaves leaves partially
green?, even so-i suspect there should be only 1 dominant- either
green or roasted?

or is it from mixing with unroasted oolong...

On Jul 28, 4:02 am, SN > wrote:
> tasting a roasted oolong, i notice that it also has a rather strong
> green flavor to it, so im wondering
>
> when they roast the oolong, if the final flavor comes out roasted,
> should it NOT have a green flavor?
> is this due to incomplete/less roasting that leaves leaves partially
> green?, even so-i suspect there should be only 1 dominant- either
> green or roasted?
>
> or is it from mixing with unroasted oolong...

Perhaps...

Green flavor = related to oxidation level
Roasted = to bring out the fruitty sweetness in the tea, there are
broadly 3 levels of roasting: light, medium, heavy
It depends on what the tea maker wanted to produce, really. One can
have a green oolong with a light roast to bring out the floral and
leafy notes, or a green oolong with a medium roast to bring out a
level of sweetness in the aftertaste, etc etc.

Danny

I have visited a few factorys in china and there is a huge variation
in qulaity of different oolongs. Depending on what oxidation levels
the factory want to achieve will definately widen the variety
available and the taste . the Factory I saw had a wooden fire and a
round tumbler where the leaves are tumbled many times over a certain
heat. They are then taken out and put back in again for more
tumbling , after that they are rolled or twisted and then tumbled
again sometimes without heat and this can be done7 to 15 times. The
second issue is quality. There are many levels of qulaity and I have
found that there has been batches of tea that are mixed with different
batches, blended. Do you see different colors of very light leaf and
very dark leaf. The dark leaf is more oxidized the light greener leaf
is less and this will definately account for grassy taste if there is
green looking leaf there.
Maurice

www.tea-junction.com

SN

It really depends on the variety of oolong you are talking about.

It will help if you mention the type oolong you are drinking.

Generally speaking, in ascending order of oxidation levels:

wenshan baozhong (taiwan)
tie guan yin (south fujian)
feng huang dang cong (guangdong) / wu yi rock tea (north fujian)
bai hao wu long (or oriental beauty, champagne oolong etc) (taiwan)

As a rough guide, it ranges from 10% to 70% oxidation level.

Some vendor sells 99% oxidised oolong tea - I am not sure exactly what
that means.

Rolling has an effect on favor too (long versus semi-ball versus
ball), although it is more difficult to comment on if a lightly rolled
tea (says wuyi) is more green than a heavily rolled tea (say tie guan
yin).

I am still exploring this subject, so I am open to corrections from
far more knowledgeable drinkers than myself.



Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Jul 28, 5:24 pm, magicleaf > wrote:
> I have visited a few factorys in china and there is a huge variation
> in qulaity of different oolongs. Depending on what oxidation levels
> the factory want to achieve will definately widen the variety
> available and the taste . the Factory I saw had a wooden fire and a
> round tumbler where the leaves are tumbled many times over a certain
> heat. They are then taken out and put back in again for more
> tumbling , after that they are rolled or twisted and then tumbled
> again sometimes without heat and this can be done7 to 15 times. The
> second issue is quality. There are many levels of qulaity and I have
> found that there has been batches of tea that are mixed with different
> batches, blended. Do you see different colors of very light leaf and
> very dark leaf. The dark leaf is more oxidized the light greener leaf
> is less and this will definately account for grassy taste if there is
> green looking leaf there.
> Maurice
>
> www.tea-junction.com

Maurice,

That is not roasting, but using heat to soften the leaves, and then
when the leaves are rolled into desired shapes, to dry them to about a
0.6% moisture level...

Danny

SN wrote:
> tasting a roasted oolong, i notice that it also has a rather strong
> green flavor to it, so im wondering
>
> when they roast the oolong, if the final flavor comes out roasted,
> should it NOT have a green flavor?

Some of us have wanted for years to find a manufacturer that would help
us with the following experiment:

- Start with one well-mixed lot of high-quality leaf

- Run through usual wither-roll-ferment process to make oolong

- Allow fermentation to proceed to three different levels, from
almost-green to dark brown, and half-way.

- Roast all three enough to stop enzymic activity.

Then either the manufacturer or we could roast part of each lot to low,
medium and high-roast. At least for that one kind of leaf, we would then
be able better to understand the roles of fermentation and roasting.

Personally, my favorite oolongs tend to be medium-ferment and
medium-roast, for maximum fragrance and complexity with minimal
astringency. But it would be nice better to understand the variables.

Anyone know a boutique manufacturer who would help out?

-DM

On Jul 28, 2:54 pm, wrote:
> On Jul 28, 5:24 pm, magicleaf > wrote:
>
>
>
> > I have visited a few factorys in china and there is a huge variation
> > in qulaity of different oolongs. Depending on what oxidation levels
> > the factory want to achieve will definately widen the variety
> > available and the taste . the Factory I saw had a wooden fire and a
> > round tumbler where the leaves are tumbled many times over a certain
> > heat. They are then taken out and put back in again for more
> > tumbling , after that they are rolled or twisted and then tumbled
> > again sometimes without heat and this can be done7 to 15 times. The
> > second issue is quality. There are many levels of qulaity and I have
> > found that there has been batches of tea that are mixed with different
> > batches, blended. Do you see different colors of very light leaf and
> > very dark leaf. The dark leaf is more oxidized the light greener leaf
> > is less and this will definately account for grassy taste if there is
> > green looking leaf there.
> > Maurice
>
> >www.tea-junction.com
>
> Maurice,
>
> That is not roasting, but using heat to soften the leaves, and then
> when the leaves are rolled into desired shapes, to dry them to about a
> 0.6% moisture level...
>
> Danny

Just add to Danny bit, it looks like Maurice is talking about the
roasting/rolling stage.

As Danny pointed out, the main purpose of this stage is shaping,
squeezing the juice out and let the tea absorbs it back again, some
drying, with the accompanying chemical reactions.

The main oxidation process actually takes place before this in the
withering/brusing stage (which is then followed by shaqing where high
heat is applied for short amount of time to kill the leaf enzymes and
greatly slow down the oxidation process.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

> Green flavor = related to oxidation level
> Roasted = to bring out the fruitty sweetness in the tea, there are
> broadly 3 levels of roasting: light, medium, heavy
> It depends on what the tea maker wanted to produce, really. One can
> have a green oolong with a light roast to bring out the floral and
> leafy notes, or a green oolong with a medium roast to bring out a
> level of sweetness in the aftertaste, etc etc.
>
> Danny

To add to this excellent assessment, it used to be that the best
wulongs were saved for heavy roasting when that type of tea was the
market trend. Mostly people in Taiwan preferred the smokey, heavy
flavor of the 'nong xiang' wulongs. The target market has switched
away from the rich folks in Taiwan to the mainland, a huge percentage
of the tea being sold in Guangdong, where the people like easier to
enjoy teas. Most lightly roasted or green wulong is much sweeter and
has a more simple flavor that even non-tea drinkers can enjoy whilst
the higher grades of heavy roasted tea can be quite complex.

But tea is no different from any market. It's supply and demand...and
the demand is from the slightly more uneducated Cantonese.

It is pretty harsh to call the Cantonese uneducated

After all they have produced the superb Phoenix Dangcong tea for so
hundred or more years.

It is an interesting point made there. I actually observe something
different.

It really depends on what you mean by roasting.

Does it refer to the final ovening stage where low heat for an
extended period of time to further stimulate the favors?

It seems that the better leaves (higher grade) tend to be less roasted
than the lower grades.

Probably because they tend to more tender.

This applies to green tea processing, in general, the higher the
grade, the lower the heat and handpressure in the making process.

It is something I still need to clarify with my tea garden about.



Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Aug 2, 3:33 pm, juliantai > wrote:
> It is pretty harsh to call the Cantonese uneducated
>
> After all they have produced the superb Phoenix Dangcong tea for so
> hundred or more years.

Not to pick nits or anything, but:

Not all people from Guangdong are considered "Cantonese". Canton was
the old name for Guangzhou so it mainly refers to people that are from
the Pearl River Delta Area; the stricter, older folks say it's only
people from Guangzhou that are the true Cantonese.

The area that Danchong is produced around ChaoShan; Chaozhou, Shantou,
JieYang and the like. Their first language isn't even Cantonese, and
they were born and raised speaking the Chaoshan dialect.

Most local Dongguan (city I'm in) people are dumber than mud and just
about as uncouth and there will be little anyone on the entire face of
the planet to change this in my mind. I am a teacher here. I have
seen it all. But, they are rich so they can afford rubbish tea and
wine that they think is good AND afford the mark-up from the shops
that want to cheat them. Why they are stupid is because they don't
even care.

> It is an interesting point made there. I actually observe something
> different.
>
> It really depends on what you mean by roasting.
>
> Does it refer to the final ovening stage where low heat for an
> extended period of time to further stimulate the favors?
>
> It seems that the better leaves (higher grade) tend to be less roasted
> than the lower grades.

Yes, this reflects the market trend. More people can appreciate the
simple flavors of the less roasted teas especially around this area.
Before the market was all about Tie Guan Yin and now its switched to
mainly Pu'er. There is SOME demand for what the locals consider as
"clean tea" and most consider Taiwan as being more clean than mainland
tea...which is true. Look at the trend of stuff from the mainland
these days that has been considered filthy. Toys..food...just about
everything.

Before ALL the better grade stuff out of Taiwan was heavy roasted.

> Probably because they tend to more tender.
>
> This applies to green tea processing, in general, the higher the
> grade, the lower the heat and handpressure in the making process.

Green tea is another ball game and there are a million of different
roasting styles and variants to consider before even getting into a
conversation about it.

> Not all people from Guangdong are considered "Cantonese". Canton was
> the old name for Guangzhou so it mainly refers to people that are from
> the Pearl River Delta Area; the stricter, older folks say it's only
> people from Guangzhou that are the true Cantonese.
>

Agree. I was aware I was making a simplication there.

I am not too familiar with the other Chinese provinces, but for
Guangdong and Fujian the diversity is truly staggering. I grow up in a
village in Malaysia. We are originally from Fuzhou. But then there
were the Chaozhou, Kejia and Yongchun. And when I look at the map, it
is truly amazing how each region speaks a different language.

Interestingly enough when I visit northern China in Dalian or Sichuan
Chengdu, I can understand their local directs - they sound remarkedly
similar to standard Mandarin.

What are you teaching over there and how is dongguan like?

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

> Interestingly enough when I visit northern China in Dalian or Sichuan
> Chengdu, I can understand their local directs - they sound remarkedly
> similar to standard Mandarin.
>
> What are you teaching over there and how is dongguan like?

Enough said about Dongguan. Read above. A trash hole not worth even
thinking about.

Sichuan has dozens of different dialects as well as it's "standard"
that is mostly spoken around its capital Chengdu and Chongqing. Those
languages have been strongly affected by Mandarin because of many
reasons like the Cultural Revolution, etc. It's the smaller towns
where you will find the real indigenous Sichuan dialects; more than
likely the truer versions of the language. Those dialects have their
own vocabulary and even words that are not used in Mandarin anymore.
Chengdu language is easy to understand...find some old people and try
to talk to them and see how easy you find that. Chongqing is also a
bit more difficult if you can find some of the real locals.

Just like the Meizhou Kejia language. They call their language
"standard" but it's so highly influenced by Cantonese and Mandarin
that it's much easier to understand than, say, my friend from the
North of Guangdong that grew up in an isolated mountain town.

On Aug 6, 3:48 am, Mydnight > wrote:
> > Interestingly enough when I visit northern China in Dalian or Sichuan
> > Chengdu, I can understand their local directs - they sound remarkedly
> > similar to standard Mandarin.
>
> > What are you teaching over there and how is dongguan like?
>
> Enough said about Dongguan. Read above. A trash hole not worth even
> thinking about.
>
> Sichuan has dozens of different dialects as well as it's "standard"
> that is mostly spoken around its capital Chengdu and Chongqing. Those
> languages have been strongly affected by Mandarin because of many
> reasons like the Cultural Revolution, etc. It's the smaller towns
> where you will find the real indigenous Sichuan dialects; more than
> likely the truer versions of the language. Those dialects have their
> own vocabulary and even words that are not used in Mandarin anymore.
> Chengdu language is easy to understand...find some old people and try
> to talk to them and see how easy you find that. Chongqing is also a
> bit more difficult if you can find some of the real locals.
>
> Just like the Meizhou Kejia language. They call their language
> "standard" but it's so highly influenced by Cantonese and Mandarin
> that it's much easier to understand than, say, my friend from the
> North of Guangdong that grew up in an isolated mountain town.

Mydnight,
I do appreciate everything you share about tea; however,
your postings are beginning to sound very biased, xenophobic and
prejudiced.
There is too much of that in the world without such animosity being in
a "tea" newsgroup.
Personally, I find it uncalled for here.
Shen

> own vocabulary and even words that are not used in Mandarin anymore.
> Chengdu language is easy to understand...find some old people and try
> to talk to them and see how easy you find that. Chongqing is also a
> bit more difficult if you can find some of the real locals.

Agree. But still not as "weird" as the mainstream guangdong and
fujian.

>
> Just like the Meizhou Kejia language. They call their language
> "standard" but it's so highly influenced by Cantonese and Mandarin
> that it's much easier to understand than, say, my friend from the
> North of Guangdong that grew up in an isolated mountain town.

I might have come across them in my younger days, although it is hard
to hear that now.
O you make me miss Asia so much!!!

I was surprised you haven't mentioned the staggering diversity of
yunan and guizhou

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Aug 6, 9:00 pm, Shen > wrote:
> On Aug 6, 3:48 am, Mydnight > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Interestingly enough when I visit northern China in Dalian or Sichuan
> > > Chengdu, I can understand their local directs - they sound remarkedly
> > > similar to standard Mandarin.
>
> > > What are you teaching over there and how is dongguan like?
>
> > Enough said about Dongguan. Read above. A trash hole not worth even
> > thinking about.
>
> > Sichuan has dozens of different dialects as well as it's "standard"
> > that is mostly spoken around its capital Chengdu and Chongqing. Those
> > languages have been strongly affected by Mandarin because of many
> > reasons like the Cultural Revolution, etc. It's the smaller towns
> > where you will find the real indigenous Sichuan dialects; more than
> > likely the truer versions of the language. Those dialects have their
> > own vocabulary and even words that are not used in Mandarin anymore.
> > Chengdu language is easy to understand...find some old people and try
> > to talk to them and see how easy you find that. Chongqing is also a
> > bit more difficult if you can find some of the real locals.
>
> > Just like the Meizhou Kejia language. They call their language
> > "standard" but it's so highly influenced by Cantonese and Mandarin
> > that it's much easier to understand than, say, my friend from the
> > North of Guangdong that grew up in an isolated mountain town.
>
> Mydnight,
> I do appreciate everything you share about tea; however,
> your postings are beginning to sound very biased, xenophobic and
> prejudiced.
> There is too much of that in the world without such animosity being in
> a "tea" newsgroup.
> Personally, I find it uncalled for here.
> Shen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Someone asked, so I told. And, you would only understand if you lived
here; can't expect you to.

Some of the environmental air and stream pollution looks nasty to me.
We know pollution from China is hitting the west coast which tells you
how bad it must be in some areas. I think in the end there are too
many of us. Even a pandemic won't do any good.

Jim

Mydnight wrote:
> On Aug 6, 9:00 pm, Shen > wrote:
>
> Someone asked, so I told. And, you would only understand if you lived
> here; can't expect you to.