Dear all,

there was recently a discussion about the two methods
of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.

1) let the water boil and then let it cool down

2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only


Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
the discussion has disappeared.

Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
there any definite conclusion?

Thanks in advance,

Bernd

On 05/22/2007 06:01:42 Bernd Pollermann > wrote:

there was recently a discussion about the two methods of making tea with

> let's say 80 centigrade water.

> 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down

> 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only

> Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now the
> discussion has disappeared.

> Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't there any
> definite conclusion?

> Thanks in advance,

> Bernd


Bernd, there is *never* a definitive conclusion for these issues. Some go one way, some go the other. That was the gist of the end of the discussion. Rationale behind the boil and let the water cool down solution is thought to derive from areas and times where and when water was bad and needed to be boiled. Some people said that in China "fish eye" water is considered bad water and full roiling water is considered good -- whatever that means. Personally, I often boil the water and let it cool, although our water here in New York City is just fine and quite healthy -- whatever that means. This is all from memory, so it might be less than perfect, as am I.
Michael

And the rationale behind bringing the water up to the desired temp
without letting it boil (assuming the water is from a safe source) is
that this retains more of the dissolved oxygen. Of course, it requires
a bit of attention to stop the heating at the right time. Some people
feel it is easier to allow the water to boil, especially if one has a
kettle which automagically cuts off once the water boils, and then
keep an eye on it as it cools.

Alan

On May 22, 3:53 am, Michael Plant > wrote:
> On 05/22/2007 06:01:42 Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
>
> there was recently a discussion about the two methods of making tea with
>
> > let's say 80 centigrade water.
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now the
> > discussion has disappeared.
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't there any
> > definite conclusion?
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Bernd
>
> Bernd, there is *never* a definitive conclusion for these issues. Some go one way, some go the other. That was the gist of the end of the discussion. Rationale behind the boil and let the water cool down solution is thought to derive from areas and times where and when water was bad and needed to be boiled. Some people said that in China "fish eye" water is considered bad water and full roiling water is considered good -- whatever that means. Personally, I often boil the water and let it cool, although our water here in New York City is just fine and quite healthy -- whatever that means. This is all from memory, so it might be less than perfect, as am I.
> Michael

Michael Plant wrote:

>
>
> On 05/22/2007 06:01:42 Bernd Pollermann >
> wrote:
>
> there was recently a discussion about the two methods of making tea
> with
>
> > let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now the
> > discussion has disappeared.
>
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> > there any definite conclusion?
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Bernd
>
>
> Bernd, there is never a definitive conclusion for these issues. Some
> go one way, some go the other. That was the gist of the end of the
> discussion. Rationale behind the boil and let the water cool down
> solution is thought to derive from areas and times where and when
> water was bad and needed to be boiled. Some people said that in China
> "fish eye" water is considered bad water and full roiling water is
> considered good -- whatever that means. Personally, I often boil the
> water and let it cool, although our water here in New York City is
> just fine and quite healthy -- whatever that means. This is all from
> memory, so it might be less than perfect, as am I. Michael

"Fish-eye water" is good and full boiling water is NOT considered to be
good! As always in real life, there's not only black and white,
different shades of gray fill out most of the middle ground. In the
case of heating water for tea, there are 3 main stages based on the
appearance of the water. The first stage is called "crab-eye water",
referring to the size of bubbles that form at this particular stage.
According to my random measurements, that's usually somewhere between
85° and 90°C. It is considered to be unhealthy water by the Chinese.
The next stage is called "fish-eye water", this time forming a bit
larger bubbles that break through to the surface in a semi-steady
stream. This stage is considered to be the ideal for making tea. If you
don't stop the heating process, you'll end up with "old man water" (a
full rolling boil) which is considered to be worthless for making tea.
There are other methods like judging the stage by the sound of the
kettle (you'll probably have noticed that the kettle ramps up to a the
maximum noise level at about the 2/3 mark, then slowly decreasing until
boiling) or the appearence of the emitted steam. You can find a very
good introduction to this subject in Master Lam Kam Chuen's book "The
way of tea".
Traditionally, water is always brought to (the right level of) a boil,
then cooled down. As we discussed previously, this is probably related
to health concerns (killing off bacteria). But I haven't read any
conclusive explanation of this. On the other hand, the oxygen-holding
capacity of water decreases with temperature. Therefore, bringing the
water just to the desired temperature should result in a higher oxygen
concentration in the water and a better tasting tea.
I think everyone concerned with this issue should make some tea both
ways and try them side by side. Then judge for yourself (and possibly
post on RFDT) if there is a difference in taste.

BTW, the level of boiling when a regular electric kettle cuts itself
off would be considered "old man water", so it's worth paying attention
and shutting it off before the rolling boil.

The old discussion that Bernd refered to can be found at
http://groups.google.co.nz/group/rec..._thread/thread
/a7019978841cd19c/7b634e2aa29bc550?lnk=gst&q=cooling&rnum=9&hl=en#7b 634e
2aa29bc550
--

On 2007-05-23, Jo > wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:

>> That was the gist of the end of the discussion. Rationale behind the
>> boil and let the water cool down solution is thought to derive from
>> areas and times where and when water was bad and needed to be boiled.
>> Some people said that in China "fish eye" water is considered bad
>> water and full roiling water is considered good -- whatever that
>> means. Personally, I often boil the water and let it cool, although
>> our water here in New York City is just fine and quite healthy --
>> whatever that means. This is all from memory, so it might be less
>> than perfect, as am I. Michael

> "Fish-eye water" is good and full boiling water is NOT considered to
> be good! As always in real life, there's not only black and white,
> different shades of gray fill out most of the middle ground. In the
> case of heating water for tea, there are 3 main stages based on the
> appearance of the water. The first stage is called "crab-eye water",
> referring to the size of bubbles that form at this particular stage.
> According to my random measurements, that's usually somewhere between
> 85° and 90°C. It is considered to be unhealthy water by the Chinese.
> The next stage is called "fish-eye water", this time forming a bit
> larger bubbles that break through to the surface in a semi-steady
> stream. This stage is considered to be the ideal for making tea. If
> you don't stop the heating process, you'll end up with "old man water"
> (a full rolling boil) which is considered to be worthless for making
> tea.

"...worthless for making tea" is a strong statement to make. IMO, the
type of water to use depends who you ask, what type of tea you're
talking about, and what you're using the water for.

I have seen people who definitely know what they're doing (for example,
Michael from the Tea Gallery in NY) use water that's at a full rolling
boil to open the leaves (for example, the leaves of a relatively light
TGY), and I've also heard of some people who use much less than boiling
water for teas that most folks would probably use boiling or
near-boiling water for. I tend to use boiling water for the rinse for
all but the most delicate oolongs (especially tightly rolled ones), to
help open the leaves, and I haven't seen any big problems from it. Most
of the experienced people I've watched brew seem to use a lot hotter
water than you might guess was ideal from what you read.

I also let the water come to a full boil before rinsing / heating my
teaware. The water has usually cooled down enough (for most of the stuff
I brew, anyway) by the time I get to the first post-rinse infusion. When
brewing a delicate green, I'd definitely be more conservative with my
water temperature.

I don't usually use a thermometer, but once in a while, I'll put one in
to check, and assuming my thermometer (a typical commercial kitchen type
one) is accurate, temperatures in my kettle are usually 5-10 degrees
below what I'd guess they are.

Another thing (that a friend here in LA pointed out to me) is that you
can do a lot with HOW you pour the water - so even if the water has just
come from a full boil, you can pour along the rim of the teapot or on
the side of the gaiwan, which will cool it down a bit.

As far as I understand, full-boiling water is ideal for red (black) tea,
and a lot of people seem to recommend boiling water for pu'er of all
types... that's what I usually do. Danica told me once that Roy Fong
likes to brew a lot of pu'ers (young ones, especially, IIRC) with
substantially cooler water, though - closer to green tea temperature,
and that he has good results with this.

With the electric kettle I have (standard metal Chinese electric kettle
type deal), there's not much room between crab eyes and a rolling boil,
especially if it's not entirely full.

One thing that folks definitely seem to agree is bad is RE-boiling
water.

w

On Tue, 22 May 2007, Michael Plant wrote:

>
>
> On 05/22/2007 06:01:42 Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
>
> there was recently a discussion about the two methods of making tea with
>
> > let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now the
> > discussion has disappeared.
>
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't there any
> > definite conclusion?
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Bernd
>
>
> Bernd, there is *never* a definitive conclusion for these issues. Some go one way,
> some go the other. That was the gist of the end of the discussion.
> Rationale behind the boil and let the water cool down solution is thought
> to derive from areas and times where and when water was bad and needed to be boiled.
> Some people said that in China "fish eye" water is considered bad water
> and full roiling water is considered good -- whatever that means.
> Personally, I often boil the water and let it cool, although our water
> here in New York City is just fine and quite healthy -- whatever that
> means. This is all from memory, so it might be less than perfect,
> as am I.

Thanks to you Michael and the others who responded to my question.

I nevertheless came to some conclusion, in the sense that one should try
to keep as much oxygen in the water as possible. But, as also was pointed
out, this is not so easy because the automatic heaters switch off only
when the water has been boiling for a while.

For practical reasons it is difficult to stop the heater just before the
water starts boiling violently (I have been trying now for a few days)
but, after all, preparing tea carefully (not just drinking it afterwards) is
part of the deal ...

Btw.: I found very interesting this idea that the rule
1) first boil
2) let it cool
might have come from areas where the water wasn't safe. Gives us
a hint how prejudices may have emerged.

Bernd
>

--

On May 22, 3:01 am, Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> there was recently a discussion about the two methods
> of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
> the discussion has disappeared.
>
> Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> there any definite conclusion?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bernd

I have a wonderful Kamjove kettle from China (Dragon Tea House on
eBay- $29.00). I learned a trick that works well for me from Roy Fong
just recently: rather than checking for "animal eyed-bubbles", watch
the stream - a lazy, nearly-horizontal, soft cloudy dance of slow
moving steam = "stop for greens". A more sturdy coming to vertical
shoot of steam= "stop for oolongs". Strong, robust, steady steam =
"stop for "eds/blacks".
This seems to work pretty well. Remember to keep the lid up.
Shen

On May 22, 3:01 am, Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> there was recently a discussion about the two methods
> of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
> the discussion has disappeared.
>
> Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> there any definite conclusion?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> Bernd

BTW, you can even make a very good green by using room temp water and
letting it steep a bit longer. We did this with a bunch of 2007 greens
at Imperial Tea Court recently and I must say, "mighty tasty!'.
Shen

On May 31, 3:31 pm, Shen > wrote:
> On May 22, 3:01 am, Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear all,
>
> > there was recently a discussion about the two methods
> > of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
> > the discussion has disappeared.
>
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> > there any definite conclusion?
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Bernd
>
> BTW, you can even make a very good green by using room temp water and
> letting it steep a bit longer. We did this with a bunch of 2007 greens
> at Imperial Tea Court recently and I must say, "mighty tasty!'.
> Shen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Shen, what was the "room temperature" you used for the green teas at
ITC? Interesting!

Phyll

I've been using electric kettles for about a year. Still like any
stove kettle they make the sounds indicating water temperature. My
favorite sound absolute silence before the boil and shutoff. My
previous Kamjove had a colored fill level so it was hard to see the
bubbles. My current SS Cooks from JCP has a prominent clear level
chamber protruding from the pot so I can see the size of the bubbles.
A couple of weeks ago I started to notice the steam coming from the
spout little,more,lot over the last minute and half till shutoff.
1500W doesn't waste time making water holy.

Jim

Shen wrote:
> I have a wonderful Kamjove kettle from China (Dragon Tea House on
> eBay- $29.00). I learned a trick that works well for me from Roy Fong
> just recently: rather than checking for "animal eyed-bubbles", watch
> the stream - a lazy, nearly-horizontal, soft cloudy dance of slow
> moving steam = "stop for greens". A more sturdy coming to vertical
> shoot of steam= "stop for oolongs". Strong, robust, steady steam =
> "stop for "eds/blacks".
> This seems to work pretty well. Remember to keep the lid up.
> Shen

On May 31, 5:31 pm, Shen > wrote:
> On May 22, 3:01 am, Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear all,
>
> > there was recently a discussion about the two methods
> > of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
> > the discussion has disappeared.
>
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> > there any definite conclusion?
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Bernd
>
> BTW, you can even make a very good green by using room temp water and
> letting it steep a bit longer. We did this with a bunch of 2007 greens
> at Imperial Tea Court recently and I must say, "mighty tasty!'.
> Shen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

That's called "sun tea" in Texas. There's usually less tannin taste
than in a heat-brewed tea. Toi

On May 31, 6:31 pm, Shen > wrote:
> On May 22, 3:01 am, Bernd Pollermann > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Dear all,
>
> > there was recently a discussion about the two methods
> > of making tea with let's say 80 centigrade water.
>
> > 1) let the water boil and then let it cool down
>
> > 2) heat the water up to 80 centigrade only
>
> > Unfortunately I was cut off the news group for a while, and now
> > the discussion has disappeared.
>
> > Could anybody give me the result of this discussion? Or wasn't
> > there any definite conclusion?
>
> > Thanks in advance,
>
> > Bernd
>
> BTW, you can even make a very good green by using room temp water and
> letting it steep a bit longer. We did this with a bunch of 2007 greens
> at Imperial Tea Court recently and I must say, "mighty tasty!'.
> Shen- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I do that with pu'er from time to time. I put a couple grams in maybe
8 oz of room temperature water and leave it overnight. Some
interesting flavors that are normally in the background come out in a
more pronounced fashion. Not bitter, very tasty, a good thing to have
around if you are exercising or need to focus. Lew has also been
known to advocate drinking green tea that way.