Tea (rec.drink.tea) Discussion relating to tea, the world's second most consumed beverage (after water), made by infusing or boiling the leaves of the tea plant (C. sinensis or close relatives) in water.

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Default Cutty Sark

A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
said Chinese. Toci

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Cooked ???

;-))

...sorry, bad joke........ yes, was very saddened to hear of this on tonights
evening news - apparently there's a theory that it may have been arson -
unbelievable.

--
Cheers
Mal
Oz
(ex-pat Brit)

http://maloz.bigblog.com.au/index.do
"toci" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> said Chinese. Toci
>
>




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On May 21, 6:49 am, "Mal from Oz" > wrote:
> Cooked ???
>
> ;-))
>
> ..sorry, bad joke........ yes, was very saddened to hear of this on tonights
> evening news - apparently there's a theory that it may have been arson -
> unbelievable.
>
> --
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz
> (ex-pat Brit)
>
> http://maloz.bigblog.com.au/index.do"toci" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> >A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> > anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> > said Chinese. Toci- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -


Answering my own question- between 1870 and 1877, perhaps about two-
thirds green and one-third red (black). The greens were heavily
adulterated but thought to be benign and nobody cared, apparently.
The reds were supposed to be pure. After 1877 the Cutty Sark was
changed over to regular cargo. Toci

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toci > wrote:
>A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
>anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
>said Chinese. Toci


In the late 18th and early 19th century, the huge demand for tea in
the UK lead to just about anything available in China being imported.
This was the era of "young hyson," gunpowder greens, "bohea" and
just about anything that any exporter cold get their hands on being
shipped out.

But by the time the Cutty Sark was in business, the British had extensive
tea plantations in India and Ceylon, and the British tastes in tea had
turned greatly toward the Indian products. The stuff that was coming from
China by then were mostly black teas, including yunnans and fujians, as
well as some oddities like lapsang souchong that were made for the UK
market.

According to this web site:
http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/...utty-Sark.html
The Cutty Sark was only on the tea run from 1869 to 1877, a total of eight
years. Most of that trade was probably carried out from the British legate
port in Shanghai. And as I said, the Chinese tea trade was stagnating if
not dying at that point in time, due to competition from India.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On May 21, 10:07 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> toci > wrote:
> >A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> >anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> >said Chinese. Toci

>
> In the late 18th and early 19th century, the huge demand for tea in
> the UK lead to just about anything available in China being imported.
> This was the era of "young hyson," gunpowder greens, "bohea" and
> just about anything that any exporter cold get their hands on being
> shipped out.
>
> But by the time the Cutty Sark was in business, the British had extensive
> tea plantations in India and Ceylon, and the British tastes in tea had
> turned greatly toward the Indian products. The stuff that was coming from
> China by then were mostly black teas, including yunnans and fujians, as
> well as some oddities like lapsang souchong that were made for the UK
> market.
>
> According to this web site:http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/...File.39/Cutty-...
> The Cutty Sark was only on the tea run from 1869 to 1877, a total of eight
> years. Most of that trade was probably carried out from the British legate
> port in Shanghai. And as I said, the Chinese tea trade was stagnating if
> not dying at that point in time, due to competition from India.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."


An excellent book on the topic of the boom and bust of the coastal tea
trade in China, if anyone is interested in reading more, is
"Harvesting Mountains: Fujian and the China Tea Trade, 1757-1937", by
Robert Gardella. After you read it, remember to keep to yourself the
fact that tea cultivation in Taiwan was started by foreigners.



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Another good place to start is the Opium Wars on Wikipedia. The
British sold the Chinese opium from India so they could buy Indian
tea. You see that today with the Taliban selling the West all the
once religiously prohibited opium it wants. You don't have to count
casualties on the battlefield.

Jim

Alex wrote:
> On May 21, 10:07 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > toci > wrote:
> > >A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> > >anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> > >said Chinese. Toci

> >
> > In the late 18th and early 19th century, the huge demand for tea in
> > the UK lead to just about anything available in China being imported.
> > This was the era of "young hyson," gunpowder greens, "bohea" and
> > just about anything that any exporter cold get their hands on being
> > shipped out.
> >
> > But by the time the Cutty Sark was in business, the British had extensive
> > tea plantations in India and Ceylon, and the British tastes in tea had
> > turned greatly toward the Indian products. The stuff that was coming from
> > China by then were mostly black teas, including yunnans and fujians, as
> > well as some oddities like lapsang souchong that were made for the UK
> > market.
> >
> > According to this web site:http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/...File.39/Cutty-...
> > The Cutty Sark was only on the tea run from 1869 to 1877, a total of eight
> > years. Most of that trade was probably carried out from the British legate
> > port in Shanghai. And as I said, the Chinese tea trade was stagnating if
> > not dying at that point in time, due to competition from India.
> > --scott
> >
> > --
> > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

>
> An excellent book on the topic of the boom and bust of the coastal tea
> trade in China, if anyone is interested in reading more, is
> "Harvesting Mountains: Fujian and the China Tea Trade, 1757-1937", by
> Robert Gardella. After you read it, remember to keep to yourself the
> fact that tea cultivation in Taiwan was started by foreigners.


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Default Cutty Sark

Quick potted history...... Built 1869, the last of the clippers
designed for speed, with a metal hull -- and one of the first with
lavatories -- "heads". Carried 1,400 tons of tea from China from
Shanghai in a fast 109 days; cargo into China was alcohol. Quickly
obsolete as steamers could use the Suez Canal and halve the time, but
the clippers needed head winds. Surprisingly few tea trips -- maybe 8.
Became famous in its time for fast trips from Australia -- wool and
coal. Was`sold to a Portugese group, renamed, later used as a Royal
Navy training ship. Saw a crew mutiny -- skipper then committed
suicide, almost sank rounding the Horn, Tea trade limited as many
traders believed that tea needed wooden hulls and cargo space, not
metal.

UK Police assume this is arson.


On May 21, 7:30 am, toci > wrote:
> A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> said Chinese. Toci



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The opium wars actually preceded the India tea industry -- the opium
largely came from India. The issue was that China would accept payment
for tea only in silver and would not buy British goods. At one point
35% of all the revenues coming into the Exchequer -- the UK equivalent
of the Treasury Department -- came from the opium trade, which was
largely led by the missionary families, including what became Jardine
Mathieson (sp?) the first of the Hong Kong taipans. In the 1840s,
Indian tea took over -- after decades of efforts to find native bushes
and propogate them. Slavery had been abolished in the UK in several
waves, with Earl Grey -- he of all the absurd fictions about "his" tea
-- one of the great radical leaders of reform for 40 years, but
mantained in India till, if I recall correctly, 1837. Not a glorious
period in British history. Interestingly, just as the McCarthy period
or red-baiting and the suspension of so many rights, including the
Fifth Amendment, have been kind of airbrushed out of US historical
memory, as a kid in the UK I never heard of the Opium Wars and I am
fairly knowledgable about history. The geo-politics of tea are kinda
interesting. The Opium Wars began the long humiliation of China which
was at the time the largest economy in the world.


On May 22, 9:06 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Another good place to start is the Opium Wars on Wikipedia. The
> British sold the Chinese opium from India so they could buy Indian
> tea. You see that today with the Taliban selling the West all the
> once religiously prohibited opium it wants. You don't have to count
> casualties on the battlefield.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
> Alex wrote:
> > On May 21, 10:07 am, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
> > > toci > wrote:
> > > >A massive fire, but there's still hope it can be restored. Does
> > > >anybody know what kind of tea it carried? The article I read just
> > > >said Chinese. Toci

>
> > > In the late 18th and early 19th century, the huge demand for tea in
> > > the UK lead to just about anything available in China being imported.
> > > This was the era of "young hyson," gunpowder greens, "bohea" and
> > > just about anything that any exporter cold get their hands on being
> > > shipped out.

>
> > > But by the time the Cutty Sark was in business, the British had extensive
> > > tea plantations in India and Ceylon, and the British tastes in tea had
> > > turned greatly toward the Indian products. The stuff that was coming from
> > > China by then were mostly black teas, including yunnans and fujians, as
> > > well as some oddities like lapsang souchong that were made for the UK
> > > market.

>
> > > According to this web site:http://www.portcities.org.uk/london/...File.39/Cutty-...
> > > The Cutty Sark was only on the tea run from 1869 to 1877, a total of eight
> > > years. Most of that trade was probably carried out from the British legate
> > > port in Shanghai. And as I said, the Chinese tea trade was stagnating if
> > > not dying at that point in time, due to competition from India.
> > > --scott

>
> > > --
> > > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

>
> > An excellent book on the topic of the boom and bust of the coastal tea
> > trade in China, if anyone is interested in reading more, is
> > "Harvesting Mountains: Fujian and the China Tea Trade, 1757-1937", by
> > Robert Gardella. After you read it, remember to keep to yourself the
> > fact that tea cultivation in Taiwan was started by foreigners.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -



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On May 22, 12:38 pm, pgwk > wrote:
> The opium wars actually preceded the India tea industry -- the opium
> largely came from India. The issue was that China would accept payment
> for tea only in silver and would not buy British goods. At one point
> 35% of all the revenues coming into the Exchequer -- the UK equivalent
> of the Treasury Department -- came from the opium trade, which was
> largely led by the missionary families, including what became Jardine
> Mathieson (sp?) the first of the Hong Kong taipans. In the 1840s,
> Indian tea took over -- after decades of efforts to find native bushes
> and propogate them. Slavery had been abolished in the UK in several
> waves, with Earl Grey -- he of all the absurd fictions about "his" tea
> -- one of the great radical leaders of reform for 40 years, but
> mantained in India till, if I recall correctly, 1837. Not a glorious
> period in British history. Interestingly, just as the McCarthy period
> or red-baiting and the suspension of so many rights, including the
> Fifth Amendment, have been kind of airbrushed out of US historical
> memory, as a kid in the UK I never heard of the Opium Wars and I am
> fairly knowledgable about history. The geo-politics of tea are kinda
> interesting. The Opium Wars began the long humiliation of China which
> was at the time the largest economy in the world.


Great summary. The silver imbalance was I think due to tea, silk, and
porcelain going out and nothing going in. The causes of the war were
complex, and cannot be boiled down to British imperialism; again I
would recommend reading a whole book about it. I can't remember the
author of the one I read most recently.

Also I think it's unlikely that late Qing China had the largest
economy in the world on a dollar basis, and I'm not sure that the
Fifth Amendment has been "airbrushed out of US historical memory,"
whatever that means.

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On May 23, 4:17 am, Alex > wrote:

> Great summary. The silver imbalance was I think due to tea, silk, and
> porcelain going out and nothing going in. The causes of the war were
> complex, and cannot be boiled down to British imperialism; again I
> would recommend reading a whole book about it. I can't remember the
> author of the one I read most recently.
>
> Also I think it's unlikely that late Qing China had the largest
> economy in the world on a dollar basis, and I'm not sure that the
> Fifth Amendment has been "airbrushed out of US historical memory,"
> whatever that means.


There's almost no doubt that mid-Qing China had the largest economy in
the world. Whether late-Qing China did or not depends greatly, I
think, on your exact definition of "late".

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN



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On May 22, 9:24 pm, MarshalN > wrote:
> On May 23, 4:17 am, Alex > wrote:
>
> > Great summary. The silver imbalance was I think due to tea, silk, and
> > porcelain going out and nothing going in. The causes of the war were
> > complex, and cannot be boiled down to British imperialism; again I
> > would recommend reading a whole book about it. I can't remember the
> > author of the one I read most recently.

>
> > Also I think it's unlikely that late Qing China had the largest
> > economy in the world on a dollar basis, and I'm not sure that the
> > Fifth Amendment has been "airbrushed out of US historical memory,"
> > whatever that means.

>
> There's almost no doubt that mid-Qing China had the largest economy in
> the world. Whether late-Qing China did or not depends greatly, I
> think, on your exact definition of "late".
>
> MarshalNhttp://www.xanga.com/MarshalN


I think we were talking about at the time of the Opium Wars, and I
don't have any problem calling that period "late", whether "late"
means "towards the end", "after the middle" or "in an advanced state
of decay". As to the size of its economy relative to England or the
US, I will demur to economists, but I do think it is unlikely that it
would be larger in terms of the monetary value of its output. I
wouldn't make the same assertion if we were talking about the
Yongzheng reign, but then we weren't.

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On Mon, 21 May 2007 08:07:28 -0700, Alex wrote:

> An excellent book on the topic of the boom and bust of the coastal tea
> trade in China, if anyone is interested in reading more, is "Harvesting
> Mountains: Fujian and the China Tea Trade, 1757-1937", by Robert Gardella.
> After you read it, remember to keep to yourself the fact that tea
> cultivation in Taiwan was started by foreigners.


Just how excellent is this book? I'm very interested in reading it, but
it's proving to be hard to track down. A UK seller through Amazon has a
copy, but it's £41. I'm not really _that_ interested. Is it worth me
scouring the web for another copy from somewhere?

Alternatively, does anyone have another recommendation for a good book
on this topic?

--
Joss Wright
Comp. Science Department http://www.pseudonymity.net/~joss
York University http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/~joss

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Joss Wright > wrote:
>On Mon, 21 May 2007 08:07:28 -0700, Alex wrote:
>
>> An excellent book on the topic of the boom and bust of the coastal tea
>> trade in China, if anyone is interested in reading more, is "Harvesting
>> Mountains: Fujian and the China Tea Trade, 1757-1937", by Robert Gardella.
>> After you read it, remember to keep to yourself the fact that tea
>> cultivation in Taiwan was started by foreigners.

>
>Just how excellent is this book? I'm very interested in reading it, but
>it's proving to be hard to track down. A UK seller through Amazon has a
>copy, but it's £41. I'm not really _that_ interested. Is it worth me
>scouring the web for another copy from somewhere?


It's good enough to ask your college library to get you a copy. That's
what the library is for, so you don't have to go spending money on books
you don't know if you want.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
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On Wed, 23 May 2007 11:42:11 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote:

> Joss Wright > wrote:
>>On Mon, 21 May 2007 08:07:28 -0700, Alex wrote:


> It's good enough to ask your college library to get you a copy. That's
> what the library is for, so you don't have to go spending money on books
> you don't know if you want.
> --scott


Ah, I always feel guilty getting my university to track down and obtain
copies of books that I want for personal reasons. Thanks for the
suggestion, though.

--
Joss Wright
Comp. Science Department http://www.pseudonymity.net/~joss
York University http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/~joss

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Agreed. The wars were very much part of imperialism in general, with
the French, Americans and Dutch all jostling to benefit from the
ending of the British East Indies monopoly relationship. The overt
issue was the surrender of 20,000 chests of opium after a 47-day siege
of the British factories. As I recall, the underlying issue was the
trade imbalance: India produced cotton which China bought in
quantities but not enough to equal the value of the tea the UK bought.
Pre-opium, Britain shipped around 100 tons of silver a year to China.
Around 1840, China was exporting 40 tons a year, net, to Britain. in
1830, Britain imported 30 million pounds of tea from China. In 1879,
it was 136 million.

Re the McCarthy period, I didn't mean the 5th Amendment was airbrushed
out --just that the era where it happened is conveniently blanked out
of most peoples' knowledge, just as my Chinese aquaintances are
beginning to talk as if the Cultural Revolution never happened. And if
you poll most Brits, they've never heard of the Opium Wars.

Re Cutty Sark. It's amazing that it was able to stuff close to a
million pounds of tea in its hold.

On May 22, 9:24 pm, MarshalN > wrote:
> On May 23, 4:17 am, Alex > wrote:
>
> > Great summary. The silver imbalance was I think due to tea, silk, and
> > porcelain going out and nothing going in. The causes of the war were
> > complex, and cannot be boiled down to British imperialism; again I
> > would recommend reading a whole book about it. I can't remember the
> > author of the one I read most recently.

>
> > Also I think it's unlikely that late Qing China had the largest
> > economy in the world on a dollar basis, and I'm not sure that the
> > Fifth Amendment has been "airbrushed out of US historical memory,"
> > whatever that means.

>
> There's almost no doubt that mid-Qing China had the largest economy in
> the world. Whether late-Qing China did or not depends greatly, I
> think, on your exact definition of "late".
>
> MarshalNhttp://www.xanga.com/MarshalN





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Here are some tea and opium numbers:
"Between 1781 and 1790, the total amount of tea China shiped to
England was valued at 96,267,833 yuan. Meanwhile, between 1781 and
1793, the total amount of woolens and spices that China imported from
England was value at only 16,871,592 yuan, or one-sixth of what China
sold to England. To eliminate the deficit, England began to ship
large quantities of opium to China. The shipment was 200 chests in
1787, 2000 chests in 1800, 5147 chests in 1820, 7000 chests in 1821,
12639 chests in 1824, 21785 chests in 1820, 7000 chests in 1821, 12639
chests in 1824, 21785 chests in 1834 and 39000 chests in 1837."
An Outline History of China, Foreign Language Press, Beijing,
Translated First Edition 1982,Editor Bai ShouYi,Shanghai People's
Publishing House,1980,Printed People's Republic of China, ISBN
0-8351-1000-1

Jim

On May 22, 10:38 am, pgwk > wrote:
> The opium wars actually preceded the India tea industry -- the opium
> largely came from India. The issue was that China would accept payment
> for tea only in silver and would not buy British goods. At one point
> 35% of all the revenues coming into the Exchequer -- the UK equivalent
> of the Treasury Department -- came from the opium trade, which was
> largely led by the missionary families, including what became Jardine
> Mathieson (sp?) the first of the Hong Kong taipans. In the 1840s,
> Indian tea took over -- after decades of efforts to find native bushes
> and propogate them. Slavery had been abolished in the UK in several
> waves, with Earl Grey -- he of all the absurd fictions about "his" tea
> -- one of the great radical leaders of reform for 40 years, but
> mantained in India till, if I recall correctly, 1837. Not a glorious
> period in British history. Interestingly, just as the McCarthy period
> or red-baiting and the suspension of so many rights, including the
> Fifth Amendment, have been kind of airbrushed out of US historical
> memory, as a kid in the UK I never heard of the Opium Wars and I am
> fairly knowledgable about history. The geo-politics of tea are kinda
> interesting. The Opium Wars began the long humiliation of China which
> was at the time the largest economy in the world.
>
> On May 22, 9:06 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Another good place to start is the Opium Wars on Wikipedia. The
> > British sold the Chinese opium from India so they could buy Indian
> > tea. You see that today with the Taliban selling the West all the
> > once religiously prohibited opium it wants. You don't have to count
> > casualties on the battlefield.

>
> > Jim


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