I am about to re-start learning which teas I like and I would
appreciate some suggestions for which ones to try based on what I have
tried so far.

I have been following this group for 2-3 years and sampling teas
irregularly. I have purchased a couple of samplers online (Upton,
Adagio, Bigelow) and a few random teas in 4 oz tins from the local tea
shop.

I should have kept records -- not only of the teas but the brewing
parameters. I think I prefer the greens. I find the blacks too bitter
unless I brew them for fairly short times (less than advised) --
usually 60-90 seconds. I don't think I've tried any oolongs, puerhs,
or whites.

I do somewhat like Earl Grey and English and Irish Breakfast but only
if brewed for a very short time.

I like the tea they serve in Japanese restaurants and (somewhat less)
the tea they serve in Chinese restaurants.

So, based on that, any suggestions for a few varieties to try? I plan
to buy 4-5 different types and compare and contrast, as my science
professors used to say.

Thanks

PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
making?

For each type of tea, it would need to track brand, vendor, year?,
price, etc.

For each brewing, it would need to track amount, temp, time, etc.

If not, maybe I'll write one (some day). Would anyone use it?


--

LurfysMa wrote:
> I am about to re-start learning which teas I like and I would
> appreciate some suggestions for which ones to try based on what I have
> tried so far.
>
> I have been following this group for 2-3 years and sampling teas
> irregularly. I have purchased a couple of samplers online (Upton,
> Adagio, Bigelow) and a few random teas in 4 oz tins from the local tea
> shop.
>
> I should have kept records -- not only of the teas but the brewing
> parameters. I think I prefer the greens. I find the blacks too bitter
> unless I brew them for fairly short times (less than advised) --
> usually 60-90 seconds. I don't think I've tried any oolongs, puerhs,
> or whites.
>
> I do somewhat like Earl Grey and English and Irish Breakfast but only
> if brewed for a very short time.
>
> I like the tea they serve in Japanese restaurants and (somewhat less)
> the tea they serve in Chinese restaurants.
>
> So, based on that, any suggestions for a few varieties to try? I plan
> to buy 4-5 different types and compare and contrast, as my science
> professors used to say.
>
> Thanks
>
> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
> making?
>
> For each type of tea, it would need to track brand, vendor, year?,
> price, etc.
>
> For each brewing, it would need to track amount, temp, time, etc.
>
> If not, maybe I'll write one (some day). Would anyone use it?
>
>
> --

If you like stuff they serve you in Japanese restaurants, then you
might want to start with buying some sencha, and maybe for comparison,
some biluochun, which is a Chinese green.

I think keeping track of vendor, year, and price will be advisable.
Brewing parameters... if you're serious about tea and want to figure
out what you like the most, then I suppose you should keep a record,
although, I promise you you'll remember how you brewed a tea if you
really like it. More important than parameters is the taste, and
perhaps take some pictures. Pictures do wonders and will help you
remember a tea in ways that no written words ever will. At least
that's what I've found after I started blogging.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

LurfysMa wrote:
> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
> making?

One of our Pu-erh gurus developed such a system a couple of years back.
I saw the alpha version, and thought it excellent. Don't know if he
plans to release it generally. He'll reply here if he wants to.

-DM

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 12:08:10 GMT, DogMa >
wrote:

>LurfysMa wrote:
>> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
>> making?
>
>One of our Pu-erh gurus developed such a system a couple of years back.
>I saw the alpha version, and thought it excellent. Don't know if he
>plans to release it generally. He'll reply here if he wants to.

Here's hoping he sees this and has something others can use. I'm a
mediocre database programmer ;-)

--

> >> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
> >> making?
>
> >One of our Pu-erh gurus developed such a system a couple of years back.
> >I saw the alpha version, and thought it excellent. Don't know if he
> >plans to release it generally. He'll reply here if he wants to.
>
> Here's hoping he sees this and has something others can use. I'm a
> mediocre database programmer ;-)

I believe Dogma was referring to me. I wrote a Pu-erh Collectors
database a while back to keep track of my Puerh collection. It is
primarily a "collectors" database which concentrates on tracking teas,
vendors, and individual pieces of "inventory" much like a stamp or
coin collection application. It is not a Tea "Taster's" database by
any means.

Due to some personal reasons, a recent death in my family, I really
could use a diversion right now. I would be willing to write a
database application using MS Access runtime components. I am fairly
adept at writing User Interfaces in Access and wouldn't mind creating
a Personal Tea Tasters DB. It would only be for the PC platform
though, sorry all of you OS-X users out there.

Anyway, bounce it around on the group for a while and collectively
come up with a set specifications, or general wish list, of which
features a
a)mandatory
b)would be really nice
c)throw it in if you feel like it.

Then when the thread settles down I will whip up something based on
the groups consensus, and throw it out under a Creative Commons
license.
Call it my contribution to the group..........

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike Petro generously offered to take a crack at writing an Access
application to allow tea tasters and testers to keep track of what
they buy, what they try, and how they like it. (see below)

Thanks, Mike. I'll take a first crack at some requirements.

Tea Table (no, not one with napkins and spoons). One entry for each
tea. It should include:
Name of the tea
Type (green, oolong, etc.) (link to Type Table)
Description, In-stock (y/n), Comments, etc., whatever applies to the
tea itself.

Type Table. The types of teas (green, oolong, etc.). Fields:
Type (green, oolong, etc...)
Description
???

Vendor Table (again, not something at a trade show). One entry for
each Vendor. It should include:
Name
Phone
Website
Email
Phone
Fax
???
Comments

Purchase Table. One entry each time a tea is purchased. Fields:
Date
Tea (link to Tea Table)
Vendor (link to Vendor Table)
Amount (units and container, probably not numeric)
Price
Rating (0-10 w/decimals)
???
Comments

Brew Table. One entry each time a tea is brewed (for which data is
desired). I'm not sure how many of these individual parameters are
worth tracking. Each one is more to enter.
Date
Time (some teas may be better in the morning)
Tea (link to Tea Table)
Amount of tea (selectable units)
Amount of water (selectable units)
Infusion# (1, 2, 3, ...)
Type of water (link to Water Table: tap, bottled, ???, )
Temperature (at start)
Heating method (pan, kettle, microwave, ???) (link to table?)
Vessel (Type of teapot)
Time (mm:ss)
???

Ratings: I suggest an 11-point scale (0-10) with labels like:
0 Worthless
1 Terrible
2 Very poor
3 Poor
4 Below average
5 Average
6 Above average
7 Good
8 Very good
9 Excellent
10 Perfect
This is not a table that will be linked to, but maybe to display.

I have used these ratings many times. They work very well. I like to
allow the user to enter non-integers (7.5) so they can select ratings
in between the ones labelled. These are then averaged:
Average the purchase ratings to rate the vendors.
Average the Brew ratings to rate a tea. Etc.

The main screen would show as many of the top-rated "tests" as will
fit on the screen. This will allow us to select a good tea right away.

There would be a button for a new test. It would open up a new record
which could be filled in as we go. Links would go to the proper
tables.

There would be other buttons to show various stats.

How's that?

On 16 Apr 2007 12:12:08 -0700, "Mike Petro" >
wrote:

>> >> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
>> >> making?
>>
>> >One of our Pu-erh gurus developed such a system a couple of years back.
>> >I saw the alpha version, and thought it excellent. Don't know if he
>> >plans to release it generally. He'll reply here if he wants to.
>>
>> Here's hoping he sees this and has something others can use. I'm a
>> mediocre database programmer ;-)
>
>I believe Dogma was referring to me. I wrote a Pu-erh Collectors
>database a while back to keep track of my Puerh collection. It is
>primarily a "collectors" database which concentrates on tracking teas,
>vendors, and individual pieces of "inventory" much like a stamp or
>coin collection application. It is not a Tea "Taster's" database by
>any means.
>
>Due to some personal reasons, a recent death in my family, I really
>could use a diversion right now. I would be willing to write a
>database application using MS Access runtime components. I am fairly
>adept at writing User Interfaces in Access and wouldn't mind creating
>a Personal Tea Tasters DB. It would only be for the PC platform
>though, sorry all of you OS-X users out there.
>
>Anyway, bounce it around on the group for a while and collectively
>come up with a set specifications, or general wish list, of which
>features a
>a)mandatory
>b)would be really nice
>c)throw it in if you feel like it.
>
>Then when the thread settles down I will whip up something based on
>the groups consensus, and throw it out under a Creative Commons
>license.
>Call it my contribution to the group..........
>
>Mike
>http://www.pu-erh.net


--

LurfysMa > writes:

> Mike Petro generously offered to take a crack at writing an Access
> application to allow tea tasters and testers to keep track of what
> they buy, what they try, and how they like it. (see below)
>
> Thanks, Mike. I'll take a first crack at some requirements.
> [...]
> Brew Table. One entry each time a tea is brewed (for which data is
> desired). I'm not sure how many of these individual parameters are
> worth tracking. Each one is more to enter.
> Date
> Time (some teas may be better in the morning)
> Tea (link to Tea Table)

Don't you want a reference to the Purchase table rather than the Tea
table here? Two lots from the same vendor, let alone different
vendors, will often differ dramatically.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On 16 Apr 2007 18:32:51 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:

>LurfysMa > writes:
>
>> Mike Petro generously offered to take a crack at writing an Access
>> application to allow tea tasters and testers to keep track of what
>> they buy, what they try, and how they like it. (see below)
>>
>> Thanks, Mike. I'll take a first crack at some requirements.
>> [...]
>> Brew Table. One entry each time a tea is brewed (for which data is
>> desired). I'm not sure how many of these individual parameters are
>> worth tracking. Each one is more to enter.
>> Date
>> Time (some teas may be better in the morning)
>> Tea (link to Tea Table)
>
>Don't you want a reference to the Purchase table rather than the Tea
>table here? Two lots from the same vendor, let alone different
>vendors, will often differ dramatically.

Hmmm... Good catch. The application can chase the links back to the
Tea Table to get aggregate ratings for the same tea across multiple
purchases.

Now come on and add 5-6 fields. It's not nearly complicated enough yet
to be a suitable "diversion" for Mike. Let's all pitch in and help him
out. ;-)

--

On Apr 17, 3:12 am, "Mike Petro" > wrote:

> Anyway, bounce it around on the group for a while and collectively
> come up with a set specifications, or general wish list, of which
> features a
> a)mandatory
> b)would be really nice
> c)throw it in if you feel like it.
>
> Then when the thread settles down I will whip up something based on
> the groups consensus, and throw it out under a Creative Commons
> license.
> Call it my contribution to the group..........
>
> Mikehttp://www.pu-erh.net

Me stupid, me no programmer, me no know what you people are talking
about this and that table. Me no understand.

Me wonder if pictures can be attached to Access DBs. Pictures are
nice. Yum.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

I think I would use a Web 2.0 spreadsheet.

Jim

On Apr 17, 3:37 am, MarshalN > wrote:
> On Apr 17, 3:12 am, "Mike Petro" > wrote:
>
> > Anyway, bounce it around on the group for a while and collectively
> > come up with a set specifications, or general wish list, of which
> > features a
> > a)mandatory
> > b)would be really nice
> > c)throw it in if you feel like it.
>
> > Then when the thread settles down I will whip up something based on
> > the groups consensus, and throw it out under a Creative Commons
> > license.
> > Call it my contribution to the group..........
>
> > Mikehttp://www.pu-erh.net
>
> Me stupid, me no programmer, me no know what you people are talking
> about this and that table. Me no understand.
>
> Me wonder if pictures can be attached to Access DBs. Pictures are
> nice. Yum.
>
> MarshalNhttp://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

LurfysMa > writes:

> On 16 Apr 2007 18:32:51 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> >LurfysMa > writes:
> >
> >> Mike Petro generously offered to take a crack at writing an Access
> >> application to allow tea tasters and testers to keep track of what
> >> they buy, what they try, and how they like it. (see below)
> >>
> >> Thanks, Mike. I'll take a first crack at some requirements.
> >> [...]
> >> Brew Table. One entry each time a tea is brewed (for which data is
> >> desired). I'm not sure how many of these individual parameters are
> >> worth tracking. Each one is more to enter.
> >> Date
> >> Time (some teas may be better in the morning)
> >> Tea (link to Tea Table)
> >
> >Don't you want a reference to the Purchase table rather than the Tea
> >table here? Two lots from the same vendor, let alone different
> >vendors, will often differ dramatically.
>
> Hmmm... Good catch. The application can chase the links back to the
> Tea Table to get aggregate ratings for the same tea across multiple
> purchases.

What would be even more useful, though much more ambitious, would be
some globally accessible registry of types of tea, vendors, etc., so
your data would be comparable and mergeable with someone else's.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

MarshalN > writes:

> [...]
>
> Me stupid, me no programmer, me no know what you people are talking
> about this and that table. Me no understand.
>
> Me wonder if pictures can be attached to Access DBs. Pictures are
> nice. Yum.

Pictures data. Database have data. Data good!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Apr 17, 9:47 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> MarshalN > writes:
> > [...]
>
> > Me stupid, me no programmer, me no know what you people are talking
> > about this and that table. Me no understand.
>
> > Me wonder if pictures can be attached to Access DBs. Pictures are
> > nice. Yum.
>
> Pictures data. Database have data. Data good!
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

I concur with the web 2.0 thing - I think something like a Google
Spreadsheet will be ideal - whoever administers it can assign the
appropriate read/write permissions. That way it ends up being more of
a community tool.

On Apr 17, 8:19 am, "
> wrote:
> On Apr 17, 9:47 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> > MarshalN > writes:
> > > [...]
>
> > > Me stupid, me no programmer, me no know what you people are talking
> > > about this and that table. Me no understand.
>
> > > Me wonder if pictures can be attached to Access DBs. Pictures are
> > > nice. Yum.
>
> > Pictures data. Database have data. Data good!
>
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
>
> I concur with the web 2.0 thing - I think something like a Google
> Spreadsheet will be ideal - whoever administers it can assign the
> appropriate read/write permissions. That way it ends up being more of
> a community tool.

I need to check what this web 2.0 "thing" is. I keep track of my
pu'er stash and wine bottles with MS Excel.
One of the best web community software out there to keep track of wine
collection and tasting notes is Cellar Tracker (http://
www.cellartracker.com). It's got quite extensive features and members
can let others view their collection, too, if they let is so.

Maybe something like it should be created...teatracker.com?

Stupit people unide!

Phyll

PS: I'm sorry to hear of your loss, Mike. My condolences.

On Apr 18, 12:13 am, Phyll > wrote:

> I need to check what this web 2.0 "thing" is. I keep track of my
> pu'er stash and wine bottles with MS Excel.
> One of the best web community software out there to keep track of wine
> collection and tasting notes is Cellar Tracker (http://www.cellartracker.com). It's got quite extensive features and members
> can let others view their collection, too, if they let is so.
>
> Maybe something like it should be created...teatracker.com?
>
> Stupit people unide!
>
> Phyll
>
> PS: I'm sorry to hear of your loss, Mike. My condolences.

VL of Tealogic.blogspot.com has mentioned to me before the idea of a
wiki. Not quite the same thing as a tea database, but a teawiki (he
was thinking only puerh, but I think it can be expanded a bit to
include all kinds of teas) will be an interesting project.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

On Apr 17, 1:23 pm, MarshalN > wrote:
> On Apr 18, 12:13 am, Phyll > wrote:
>
> > I need to check what this web 2.0 "thing" is. I keep track of my
> > pu'er stash and wine bottles with MS Excel.
> > One of the best web community software out there to keep track of wine
> > collection and tasting notes is Cellar Tracker (http://www.cellartracker.com). It's got quite extensive features and members
> > can let others view their collection, too, if they let is so.
>
> > Maybe something like it should be created...teatracker.com?
>
> > Stupit people unide!
>
> > Phyll
>
> > PS: I'm sorry to hear of your loss, Mike. My condolences.
>
> VL of Tealogic.blogspot.com has mentioned to me before the idea of a
> wiki. Not quite the same thing as a tea database, but a teawiki (he
> was thinking only puerh, but I think it can be expanded a bit to
> include all kinds of teas) will be an interesting project.
>
> MarshalNhttp://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

I personally like what the pipe tobacco community has done with:
http://www.tobaccoreviews.com/
People can stick in different tobaccos and everyone has the chance of
reviewing that tobacco and updating their reviews. Though it appears
to be somewhat lean on features, it seems to work well enough.

On 2007-04-17, MarshalN > wrote:

> VL of Tealogic.blogspot.com has mentioned to me before the idea of a
> wiki. Not quite the same thing as a tea database, but a teawiki (he
> was thinking only puerh, but I think it can be expanded a bit to
> include all kinds of teas) will be an interesting project.

I setup a simple one (using doku wiki) for our local tastings (though we
haven't been using it yet). I could easily setup a tea wiki somewhere if
it would help folks out, and we could see if people actually ended up
using it.

w

> I concur with the web 2.0 thing - I think something like a Google
> Spreadsheet will be ideal - whoever administers it can assign the
> appropriate read/write permissions. That way it ends up being more of
> a community tool.

>From what I can see Web 2.0 is more of a concept than anything else.
It seems to me that it would amount to little more than many of us are
already doing, allowing the user community to add and/or modify data.
For example I have a Tea Review section on my Pu-erh.Net wesbite that
allows anyone to enter their own review.

I could easily do a database using mySQL and put a php front end
(webpage) on it, after all that is essentially the engine that runs Pu-
erh.Net. This approach requires an ongoing commitment though, it is
not the one-off project I had envisioned when I stepped up. It would
require a database hosting space, monthly allotment of bandwidth,
ongoing maintenance, etc. While I certainly "could" do this, I am
somewhat reluctant as I have seen many similar Tea Review database
sites fail, and I am not sure that I see where this one would be much
different other than maybe being a little more full featured. The
database would only be as good as the Community that continued to
support it. However, I will not eliminate the idea either.

I still think developing a "personal" stand-alone Tea Journal
application would fulfill a purpose. One advantage of stand-alone is
that the database would represent "a" particular users personal tastes
and metrics. It would also persevere where a Community based project
could easily fizzle through lack of support. This type of application
could easily be ported over to a mySQL/php environment if the interest
were strong enough. What I dont want to do is spend a lot of time and
effort creating yet an other flash-in-the-pan online database that
becomes stale after 6 months.

As for Google Spreadsheets, cool idea but I honestly think that a
spreadsheet is the wrong tool for doing this type of project. It is my
opinion that you truly need the power of a relational database to
satisfy this particular concept. I do like the idea of online
applications though, especially when they are being hosted for free.
When "Google Databases" gets created then I think it would be an
appropriate tool for this type of endeavor.

I guess the first dilemma is to decide whether to make this a
Community based AND supported project, or a stand-alone project.

Just my random thoughts at this moment, the whole concept is still
open for comment.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike Petro > writes:

> [...community sites vs. personal ones...]
>
> I still think developing a "personal" stand-alone Tea Journal
> application would fulfill a purpose. One advantage of stand-alone is
> that the database would represent "a" particular users personal
> tastes and metrics. It would also persevere where a Community based
> project could easily fizzle through lack of support.

Oh, but personal projects don't necessarily persevere. It's just that
nobody else notices when they go stale.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 14:57:34 -0700, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>Tea Table (no, not one with napkins and spoons). One entry for each
>tea. It should include:
> Name of the tea

I think it would be good to have a field for secondary name for the
same tea. Not that I know it for sure but it seems quite likely that
the same tea would go under more than one name.

I also think it would be a good idea for a text field where one could
write any type of comment.

It is so much easier to have these fields in there from the start
rather than having to add them later on.


Lars
Stockholm

On Apr 15, 11:10 pm, LurfysMa > wrote:
> I am about to re-start learning which teas I like and I would
> appreciate some suggestions for which ones to try based on what I have
> tried so far.
>
> I have been following this group for 2-3 years and sampling teas
> irregularly. I have purchased a couple of samplers online (Upton,
> Adagio, Bigelow) and a few random teas in 4 oz tins from the local tea
> shop.
>
> I should have kept records -- not only of the teas but the brewing
> parameters. I think I prefer the greens. I find the blacks too bitter
> unless I brew them for fairly short times (less than advised) --
> usually 60-90 seconds. I don't think I've tried any oolongs, puerhs,
> or whites.
>
> I do somewhat like Earl Grey and English and Irish Breakfast but only
> if brewed for a very short time.
>
> I like the tea they serve in Japanese restaurants and (somewhat less)
> the tea they serve in Chinese restaurants.
>
> So, based on that, any suggestions for a few varieties to try? I plan
> to buy 4-5 different types and compare and contrast, as my science
> professors used to say.
>
A suggestion......

Much as I hate to recommend a Microsoft option and am allergic to
Windows, I think that MIcrosoft Works Database, which comes with your
PC (check Start button, All programs and look for Works, then pick the
database option) could be a simple and free choice for you. You aren't
going to have thousands of records to manage so don't really really
need a relational query capability -- just "sort" by Key , Key 2 --
and can choose a few simple keys plus data and text fields. You can
find a short and nice little tutorial on risman.ca/database, which
uses as its example cataloguing a record collection, which is not
structurally dissimilar to cataloguing tea samples. One nice feature
is you can switch from the spreadsheet-like database layout to the
"form" display, which presents your information simply and clearly. I
suggest you use multiple keys -- perhaps Tea name 1/Alternate name 2/
Supplier/Date/Infusion #/........ then the items of interest for you
-- plus text fields for you to provide comments and commentary.

Good luck
Peter


> Thanks
>
> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
> making?
>
> For each type of tea, it would need to track brand, vendor, year?,
> price, etc.
>
> For each brewing, it would need to track amount, temp, time, etc.
>
> If not, maybe I'll write one (some day). Would anyone use it?
>
> --

On 17 Apr 2007 18:39:44 -0700, pgwk > wrote:

>On Apr 15, 11:10 pm, LurfysMa > wrote:
>> I am about to re-start learning which teas I like and I would
>> appreciate some suggestions for which ones to try based on what I have
>> tried so far.
>>
>> I have been following this group for 2-3 years and sampling teas
>> irregularly. I have purchased a couple of samplers online (Upton,
>> Adagio, Bigelow) and a few random teas in 4 oz tins from the local tea
>> shop.
>>
>> I should have kept records -- not only of the teas but the brewing
>> parameters. I think I prefer the greens. I find the blacks too bitter
>> unless I brew them for fairly short times (less than advised) --
>> usually 60-90 seconds. I don't think I've tried any oolongs, puerhs,
>> or whites.
>>
>> I do somewhat like Earl Grey and English and Irish Breakfast but only
>> if brewed for a very short time.
>>
>> I like the tea they serve in Japanese restaurants and (somewhat less)
>> the tea they serve in Chinese restaurants.
>>
>> So, based on that, any suggestions for a few varieties to try? I plan
>> to buy 4-5 different types and compare and contrast, as my science
>> professors used to say.
>>
>A suggestion......
>
>Much as I hate to recommend a Microsoft option and am allergic to
>Windows, I think that MIcrosoft Works Database, which comes with your
>PC (check Start button, All programs and look for Works, then pick the
>database option) could be a simple and free choice for you.

Nothing like that on my Windows 2000 machine.


--

A Relational Database would be powerful compared to MS Works, Excel etc.
Would also take some committment from someone keen to embark on such a
venture. One also needs to remember the more complex the solution adopted,
the more likely the product incurs problems (no disrespect to the
programmers on the group) and the harder it is to make changes to it as time
goes on..

My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows based.
With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
something to consider. This way you can take your 'database' with you on
shopping trips etc.

But hey, irrespective of the outcome, some great ideas and enthusiasm here.
Cheers
Mal
Oz


"pgwk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Apr 15, 11:10 pm, LurfysMa > wrote:
>> I am about to re-start learning which teas I like and I would
>> appreciate some suggestions for which ones to try based on what I have
>> tried so far.
>>
>> I have been following this group for 2-3 years and sampling teas
>> irregularly. I have purchased a couple of samplers online (Upton,
>> Adagio, Bigelow) and a few random teas in 4 oz tins from the local tea
>> shop.
>>
>> I should have kept records -- not only of the teas but the brewing
>> parameters. I think I prefer the greens. I find the blacks too bitter
>> unless I brew them for fairly short times (less than advised) --
>> usually 60-90 seconds. I don't think I've tried any oolongs, puerhs,
>> or whites.
>>
>> I do somewhat like Earl Grey and English and Irish Breakfast but only
>> if brewed for a very short time.
>>
>> I like the tea they serve in Japanese restaurants and (somewhat less)
>> the tea they serve in Chinese restaurants.
>>
>> So, based on that, any suggestions for a few varieties to try? I plan
>> to buy 4-5 different types and compare and contrast, as my science
>> professors used to say.
>>
> A suggestion......
>
> Much as I hate to recommend a Microsoft option and am allergic to
> Windows, I think that MIcrosoft Works Database, which comes with your
> PC (check Start button, All programs and look for Works, then pick the
> database option) could be a simple and free choice for you. You aren't
> going to have thousands of records to manage so don't really really
> need a relational query capability -- just "sort" by Key , Key 2 --
> and can choose a few simple keys plus data and text fields. You can
> find a short and nice little tutorial on risman.ca/database, which
> uses as its example cataloguing a record collection, which is not
> structurally dissimilar to cataloguing tea samples. One nice feature
> is you can switch from the spreadsheet-like database layout to the
> "form" display, which presents your information simply and clearly. I
> suggest you use multiple keys -- perhaps Tea name 1/Alternate name 2/
> Supplier/Date/Infusion #/........ then the items of interest for you
> -- plus text fields for you to provide comments and commentary.
>
> Good luck
> Peter
>
>
>> Thanks
>>
>> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
>> making?
>>
>> For each type of tea, it would need to track brand, vendor, year?,
>> price, etc.
>>
>> For each brewing, it would need to track amount, temp, time, etc.
>>
>> If not, maybe I'll write one (some day). Would anyone use it?
>>
>> --
>
>

Does anybody know if I could view Chinese email over a typical US cell
phone? Does the network provider show the glyphs or do I a special
phone with a Chinese fontset installed?

Jim

On Apr 19, 1:22 am, "Mal from Oz" > wrote:
> My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows based.
> With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
> simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
> something to consider. This way you can take your 'database' with you on
> shopping trips etc.
>
> But hey, irrespective of the outcome, some great ideas and enthusiasm here.
> Cheers
> Mal
> Oz

"Mal from Oz" > writes:

> A Relational Database would be powerful compared to MS Works, Excel etc.
> Would also take some committment from someone keen to embark on such a
> venture. One also needs to remember the more complex the solution adopted,
> the more likely the product incurs problems (no disrespect to the
> programmers on the group) and the harder it is to make changes to it as time
> goes on..
>
> My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows based.
> With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
> simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
> something to consider.

Portable? Excel?!

OK, I've counted to ten and calmed down. Look, Excel is portable only
in an all-Microsoft world. Leaving aside all the, uh, philosophical
objections many people have towards a Microsoft monoculture, you don't
have to be a very keen observer of the world of computing to realize
that Microsoft's power and reach have ebbed over the last several
years.

Sorry about what might be considered off-topic ranting, but we *are*
talking about a potential tool for those reading this newsgroup.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.glencove.com/95nworkTCPIP.html#c5

On Apr 19, 10:37 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "Mal from Oz" > writes:
>
> > A Relational Database would be powerful compared to MS Works, Excel etc.
> > Would also take some committment from someone keen to embark on such a
> > venture. One also needs to remember the more complex the solution adopted,
> > the more likely the product incurs problems (no disrespect to the
> > programmers on the group) and the harder it is to make changes to it as time
> > goes on..
>
> > My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows based.
> > With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
> > simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
> > something to consider.
>
> Portable? Excel?!
>
I'm with you, Lew, but had to count to twenty. Whatever solution
members of our group adopts shoudl be very simple. Smartphones have a
long way to go in terms of display, true compatibility and even data
entry. Relastional DBMS would be a complete overkill -- we are not
talking about hundreds of thousands of records, with complex query
needs and conditional Boolean search features, plus why would anyone
need to normalize the data as tables? I suggested a straightforward
Micorosoft Works DB option, which is not portable, however. I assumed
that all PCs come with Works but that may be incorrect.

A tea DB is basically just a simple set of records, so all that is
needed is a simple data entry mechanism, search capability and display
output. The only non-simple issue is coming up with a list of the
fields and keys you want to use.



> OK, I've counted to ten and calmed down. Look, Excel is portable only
> in an all-Microsoft world. Leaving aside all the, uh, philosophical
> objections many people have towards a Microsoft monoculture, you don't
> have to be a very keen observer of the world of computing to realize
> that Microsoft's power and reach have ebbed over the last several
> years.
>
> Sorry about what might be considered off-topic ranting, but we *are*
> talking about a potential tool for those reading this newsgroup.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / #c5

pgwk > writes:

> [...Microsoft...]
>
> Whatever solution members of our group adopts shoudl be very
> simple. Smartphones have a long way to go in terms of display, true
> compatibility and even data entry. Relastional DBMS would be a
> complete overkill -- we are not talking about hundreds of thousands
> of records, with complex query needs and conditional Boolean search
> features,

Not unless there's more than one user/taster. Do you want to
foreclose that possibility at the outset?

> plus why would anyone need to normalize the data as tables?

One reason is that you might want to be sure when you're talking about
the same thing and when you're talking about different things. For a
concrete example, there's the exchange I had with LurfysMa about
purchases (or lots) vs. types of tea.

> [...]
>
> A tea DB is basically just a simple set of records, so all that is
> needed is a simple data entry mechanism, search capability and
> display output. The only non-simple issue is coming up with a list
> of the fields and keys you want to use.

Well, that's one way to do it, and a valid way, but hardly the only
one. There are lots of free-form blogs featuring people's tasting
notes out there. I read some of them with pleasure and profit. But I
fear that a quick-n-dirty "database" for tea tasting would suck all
the flavorsome virtues out of the blog approach without much
offsetting usefulness.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.glencove.com/95nworkTCPIP.html#c5

Good points.... I was thinking about a single user application. Multi-
user/blogs changes the game entirely and would involve creative work
on defining metadata and on standardizing terms, which would be a
challenge but a rewarding one -- and a large effort. Given how many
tea taste terms are "subjective" and adjectival, I'm cautious about
the practicality of this. It would indeed be useful to get some degree
of structure and standardization of vocabulary. Maybe a company like
Adagio would be receptive to such an initiative from an
entrepreneurial real lover. Its large number of customer reviews are
just free-form comments which very much limits their value.

On Apr 19, 2:51 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> pgwk > writes:
> > [...Microsoft...]
>
> > Whatever solution members of our group adopts shoudl be very
> > simple. Smartphones have a long way to go in terms of display, true
> > compatibility and even data entry. Relastional DBMS would be a
> > complete overkill -- we are not talking about hundreds of thousands
> > of records, with complex query needs and conditional Boolean search
> > features,
>
> Not unless there's more than one user/taster. Do you want to
> foreclose that possibility at the outset?
>
> > plus why would anyone need to normalize the data as tables?
>
> One reason is that you might want to be sure when you're talking about
> the same thing and when you're talking about different things. For a
> concrete example, there's the exchange I had with LurfysMa about
> purchases (or lots) vs. types of tea.
>
> > [...]
>
> > A tea DB is basically just a simple set of records, so all that is
> > needed is a simple data entry mechanism, search capability and
> > display output. The only non-simple issue is coming up with a list
> > of the fields and keys you want to use.
>
> Well, that's one way to do it, and a valid way, but hardly the only
> one. There are lots of free-form blogs featuring people's tasting
> notes out there. I read some of them with pleasure and profit. But I
> fear that a quick-n-dirty "database" for tea tasting would suck all
> the flavorsome virtues out of the blog approach without much
> offsetting usefulness.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin / #c5

On Apr 17, 2:26 pm, Mike Petro > wrote:
> > I concur with the web 2.0 thing - I think something like a Google
> > Spreadsheet will be ideal - whoever administers it can assign the
> > appropriate read/write permissions. That way it ends up being more of
> > a community tool.
> >From what I can see Web 2.0 is more of a concept than anything else.
>
> It seems to me that it would amount to little more than many of us are
> already doing, allowing the user community to add and/or modify data.
> For example I have a Tea Review section on my Pu-erh.Net wesbite that
> allows anyone to enter their own review.
>
> I could easily do a database using mySQL and put a php front end
> (webpage) on it, after all that is essentially the engine that runs Pu-
> erh.Net. This approach requires an ongoing commitment though, it is
> not the one-off project I had envisioned when I stepped up. It would
> require a database hosting space, monthly allotment of bandwidth,
> ongoing maintenance, etc. While I certainly "could" do this, I am
> somewhat reluctant as I have seen many similar Tea Review database
> sites fail, and I am not sure that I see where this one would be much
> different other than maybe being a little more full featured. The
> database would only be as good as the Community that continued to
> support it. However, I will not eliminate the idea either.
>
> I still think developing a "personal" stand-alone Tea Journal
> application would fulfill a purpose. One advantage of stand-alone is
> that the database would represent "a" particular users personal tastes
> and metrics. It would also persevere where a Community based project
> could easily fizzle through lack of support. This type of application
> could easily be ported over to a mySQL/php environment if the interest
> were strong enough. What I dont want to do is spend a lot of time and
> effort creating yet an other flash-in-the-pan online database that
> becomes stale after 6 months.
>
> As for Google Spreadsheets, cool idea but I honestly think that a
> spreadsheet is the wrong tool for doing this type of project. It is my
> opinion that you truly need the power of a relational database to
> satisfy this particular concept. I do like the idea of online
> applications though, especially when they are being hosted for free.
> When "Google Databases" gets created then I think it would be an
> appropriate tool for this type of endeavor.
>
> I guess the first dilemma is to decide whether to make this a
> Community based AND supported project, or a stand-alone project.
>
> Just my random thoughts at this moment, the whole concept is still
> open for comment.
>
> Mikehttp://www.pu-erh.net

I created a 'personal' stand-alone 'Tea Journal' using MS Excel using
many of the fields suggested by the other members, but, since I'm an
ol' mainframe programmer/analyst who now uses MS Access frequently at
work, the Access DB idea sounds great.

er yea, it is actually quite portable Lew, and it's not restricted any more
to Windows platforms (at least in the mobile device space).
But I was actually thinking of a Windows Mobile or Palm based PDA/Phone.
There are even viewers for Symbian based devices.
These all handle basic spreadsheets remarkably well but you may have a point
when it comes to handling Excel applications, those with embedded controls
and code etc.

I port many spreadsheets to my Windows Mobile based phone and also did so on
my old Palm device for years (using a 3rd party Excel viewer - later
versions of which actually allowed you to read/edit excel files in Windows
Native mode). Viewing and editing was very simple, but as you say, screen
size is an issue.

If the tea application we are discussing requires a few bells and whistles,
then I concur that Excel is probably not the way forward. If the potential
users want something that is very simple (and perhaps readily portable),
then maybe Excel is an option.

Just a thought, not an edict.

Cheers
Mal
Oz


"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> "Mal from Oz" > writes:
>
>> A Relational Database would be powerful compared to MS Works, Excel etc.
>> Would also take some committment from someone keen to embark on such a
>> venture. One also needs to remember the more complex the solution
>> adopted,
>> the more likely the product incurs problems (no disrespect to the
>> programmers on the group) and the harder it is to make changes to it as
>> time
>> goes on..
>>
>> My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows
>> based.
>> With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
>> simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
>> something to consider.
>
> Portable? Excel?!
>
> OK, I've counted to ten and calmed down. Look, Excel is portable only
> in an all-Microsoft world. Leaving aside all the, uh, philosophical
> objections many people have towards a Microsoft monoculture, you don't
> have to be a very keen observer of the world of computing to realize
> that Microsoft's power and reach have ebbed over the last several
> years.
>
> Sorry about what might be considered off-topic ranting, but we *are*
> talking about a potential tool for those reading this newsgroup.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.glencove.com/95nworkTCPIP.html#c5

"parislexi" > wrote in message
<snip>
>since I'm an ol' mainframe programmer/analyst who now ...>

yay !
...go Big Blue !..

Cheers
Mal
Oz
(...going back to hide under the Z890 now...)

"Mal from Oz" > writes:

> [...Excel pluses and minuses...]
>
> Just a thought, not an edict.

Right; we don't do edicts around here. Wait - was that an edict?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Excellent this sounds great let me jump in )

I agree with Mike in that the focus for this should remain a personal
journal application, which as he says would be easily portable to a
community database in future if demand is great enough. Lots of other
fantastic ideas coming out of this though but probably best to keep
the focus on what is a nice simple but useful personal tool... and
yeah the relational database will be good for searching, matching...
especially if adding/growing the functions in future.

I reckon we need a table for 'Tasting Notes' as part of the ratings
process:

It could be split into the three main categories of:
1. Dry Leaf - (consisting of)
a.) Desirable characteristics: Curly, wiry, neat, blackish, bloom,
clean, leafy, nose, tip, well twisted
b.) Undesirable characteristics: Mushy, ragged, grey, light, uneven
c.) own notes

2. Infused Leaf - (consisting of)
a.) Desirable: biscuity, bright, coppery, smooth, self drinking, full,
rich, soothing, smokey
b.) Undesirable: dull, dark, tarry
c.) own notes

3. Liquor / Brew - (options consisting of)
a.) Desirable: body, bright, brisk, character, coloury, muscatel,
point, pungent, quality, strength, thick, flavour, full, malty,
mature, self-drinking, smokey
b.) Undesirable: baggy, bakey, bitter, brassy, burned, coarse, common,
dry, dull, musty, plain, raw, soft, stewed, sweaty, taint, weedy,
thin, earthy, empty, fruity, hard, harsh, heavy, lacking, green
(referring to black tea)
c.) own notes

Any other characteristics as there are so many descriptive terms!?
.................................................. ..........

Also a 'Leaf Grade' table with the usual suspects:

Pekoe
TGFOP
Orange Pekoe (OP)
Fannings
Dust
Loose Tea
Processed Tea
Souchong
Broken Grades

etc.......

.................................................. .........................

And finally a few options like:

1.) The ability to select or de-select a particular tea as a favourite
(general and/or within specific tea category) so your not searching
through the whole history later to find them.

2.) The ability to add the teas origin estate / grower... especially
as I for one am big on 'Single Estate' or 'Single Region' tea... and
within that to be able to say whether it is processed Organic, CTC,
Fair Trade, Ethical etc
.................................................. .........................

Ok sorry that's enough from me I think )

Jon

jonny kane > writes:

> [...]
> 3. Liquor / Brew - (options consisting of)
> [...]
> b.) Undesirable: baggy, bakey, bitter, brassy, burned, coarse, common,
> dry, dull, musty, plain, raw, soft, stewed, sweaty, taint, weedy,
> thin, earthy, empty, fruity, hard, harsh, heavy, lacking, green
> (referring to black tea)

I'm afraid many of the words in this list of tea tasters' terms of
disapproval appliy to black tea almost exclusively. In other genres
of tea, "bitter", "soft", "earthy", "fruity" could be fine.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Hi Lewis, sure... indeed it could be sub-divided into a selectable
list of terms for specific types of tea. Perhaps you can provide a
more complete list of terms for the database related to Chinese teas,
'Desirable' & 'Undesirable' - Chinese teas are admittedly not my area
of expertise )

Jon


> > b.) Undesirable: baggy, bakey, bitter, brassy, burned, coarse, common,
> > dry, dull, musty, plain, raw, soft, stewed, sweaty, taint, weedy,
> > thin, earthy, empty, fruity, hard, harsh, heavy, lacking, green
> > (referring to black tea)
>
> I'm afraid many of the words in this list of tea tasters' terms of
> disapproval appliy to black tea almost exclusively. In other genres
> of tea, "bitter", "soft", "earthy", "fruity" could be fine.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Leaving out the Origin? I'm surprised.
Country
Region
Plantation
Harvest
Processor

....stuff like that


"LurfysMa" > wrote in message news | Mike Petro generously offered to take a crack at writing an Access
| application to allow tea tasters and testers to keep track of what
| they buy, what they try, and how they like it. (see below)
|
| Thanks, Mike. I'll take a first crack at some requirements.
|
| Tea Table (no, not one with napkins and spoons). One entry for each
| tea. It should include:
| Name of the tea
| Type (green, oolong, etc.) (link to Type Table)
| Description, In-stock (y/n), Comments, etc., whatever applies to the
| tea itself.
|
| Type Table. The types of teas (green, oolong, etc.). Fields:
| Type (green, oolong, etc...)
| Description
| ???
|
| Vendor Table (again, not something at a trade show). One entry for
| each Vendor. It should include:
| Name
| Phone
| Website
| Email
| Phone
| Fax
| ???
| Comments
|
| Purchase Table. One entry each time a tea is purchased. Fields:
| Date
| Tea (link to Tea Table)
| Vendor (link to Vendor Table)
| Amount (units and container, probably not numeric)
| Price
| Rating (0-10 w/decimals)
| ???
| Comments
|
| Brew Table. One entry each time a tea is brewed (for which data is
| desired). I'm not sure how many of these individual parameters are
| worth tracking. Each one is more to enter.
| Date
| Time (some teas may be better in the morning)
| Tea (link to Tea Table)
| Amount of tea (selectable units)
| Amount of water (selectable units)
| Infusion# (1, 2, 3, ...)
| Type of water (link to Water Table: tap, bottled, ???, )
| Temperature (at start)
| Heating method (pan, kettle, microwave, ???) (link to table?)
| Vessel (Type of teapot)
| Time (mm:ss)
| ???
|
| Ratings: I suggest an 11-point scale (0-10) with labels like:
| 0 Worthless
| 1 Terrible
| 2 Very poor
| 3 Poor
| 4 Below average
| 5 Average
| 6 Above average
| 7 Good
| 8 Very good
| 9 Excellent
| 10 Perfect
| This is not a table that will be linked to, but maybe to display.
|
| I have used these ratings many times. They work very well. I like to
| allow the user to enter non-integers (7.5) so they can select ratings
| in between the ones labelled. These are then averaged:
| Average the purchase ratings to rate the vendors.
| Average the Brew ratings to rate a tea. Etc.
|
| The main screen would show as many of the top-rated "tests" as will
| fit on the screen. This will allow us to select a good tea right away.
|
| There would be a button for a new test. It would open up a new record
| which could be filled in as we go. Links would go to the proper
| tables.
|
| There would be other buttons to show various stats.
|
| How's that?
|
| On 16 Apr 2007 12:12:08 -0700, "Mike Petro" >
| wrote:
|
| >> >> PS: Is anyone aware of any software for keeping track of teas and tea
| >> >> making?
| >>
| >> >One of our Pu-erh gurus developed such a system a couple of years back.
| >> >I saw the alpha version, and thought it excellent. Don't know if he
| >> >plans to release it generally. He'll reply here if he wants to.
| >>
| >> Here's hoping he sees this and has something others can use. I'm a
| >> mediocre database programmer ;-)
| >
| >I believe Dogma was referring to me. I wrote a Pu-erh Collectors
| >database a while back to keep track of my Puerh collection. It is
| >primarily a "collectors" database which concentrates on tracking teas,
| >vendors, and individual pieces of "inventory" much like a stamp or
| >coin collection application. It is not a Tea "Taster's" database by
| >any means.
| >
| >Due to some personal reasons, a recent death in my family, I really
| >could use a diversion right now. I would be willing to write a
| >database application using MS Access runtime components. I am fairly
| >adept at writing User Interfaces in Access and wouldn't mind creating
| >a Personal Tea Tasters DB. It would only be for the PC platform
| >though, sorry all of you OS-X users out there.
| >
| >Anyway, bounce it around on the group for a while and collectively
| >come up with a set specifications, or general wish list, of which
| >features a
| >a)mandatory
| >b)would be really nice
| >c)throw it in if you feel like it.
| >
| >Then when the thread settles down I will whip up something based on
| >the groups consensus, and throw it out under a Creative Commons
| >license.
| >Call it my contribution to the group..........
| >
| >Mike
| >http://www.pu-erh.net
|
|
| --

I had a girlfriend who sent me email that I never could read. It was usually just a few symbols. She never asked me why I couldn't read it and I guess she couldn't read mine either. Short relationship there.
This isn't supposed to happen in the MIME world, is it?

"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message ps.com...
| Does anybody know if I could view Chinese email over a typical US cell
| phone? Does the network provider show the glyphs or do I a special
| phone with a Chinese fontset installed?
|
| Jim
|
| On Apr 19, 1:22 am, "Mal from Oz" > wrote:
| > My PDA/Phone goes with me everywhere and just happens to be Windows based.
| > With the increasing number of smartphones on the market perhaps a more
| > simpler approach using a more portable platform such as Excel might be
| > something to consider. This way you can take your 'database' with you on
| > shopping trips etc.
| >
| > But hey, irrespective of the outcome, some great ideas and enthusiasm here.
| > Cheers
| > Mal
| > Oz
|