Ever since I started drinking Darjeeling black teas, I've noticed they
always seem ot contain a variable mixture of dark brown and green
leaves. Looking more carefully at the unfurled leaves last weekend, I
found I could easily also pick out many partially oxidized (red-edged
green) leaves. This confuses me a bit, since I thought that black tea
was supposed to be completely oxidized and thus should have an even
dark brown colour like what we see in black teas from China or other
places in India.

Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
oxidized Darjeeling black tea?

Interesting question, actually I have some darjeeling teas which are
totally green, they are from the first flush which yields a very light
tatsing tea which is green but a dull green,however as I understand
these teas have been fermented as you pointed out fermentation or
oxidation turns the leaf brown but the darjeeling second flush the
leaf is thicker and stronger in flavor and does brown during the
fermentation.I have not seen much green tea come out of darjeeling
however the high altitude contributes to alot more moisture and the
leaf does grow alot quicker hence the lighter flavor of the tea as
against assam which is much stronger because of the different
conditions it grows in. So the green you see in the leaf is probably
leaves from the first flush. I stand to be corrected as I am not an
expert in the field (YET)

sjschen > wrote:
>
>Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
>partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
>Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
>oxidized Darjeeling black tea?

When I was a kid, typical Darjeeling teas were fully oxidized, but over
the years they have become greener and greener to the point where I would
not call a typical Darjeeling an actual black tea. It's... well... it's
New Darjeeling style.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Commercial brands of Darjeeling are fully oxidized. The dry and spent
leaf is black. Estate brands of Dareeling vary from green to oolong.
You can buy some that is even white. I think estate Darjeeling is
like Japanese sencha, what we get in th West is what the locals
followed by the Germans don't like. The real problem with Darjeeling
it might be something else especially if the leaf doesn't look
consistent. You also hear complaints it ain't what it use to be.
There are one or two who know their Darjeeling so maybe they'll chime
in. I prefer commerciall Darjeeling over estate flushes. The
competition guarantees the product.

Jim

On Mar 27, 1:49 am, "sjschen" > wrote:
> Ever since I started drinking Darjeeling black teas, I've noticed they
> always seem ot contain a variable mixture of dark brown and green
> leaves. Looking more carefully at the unfurled leaves last weekend, I
> found I could easily also pick out many partially oxidized (red-edged
> green) leaves. This confuses me a bit, since I thought that black tea
> was supposed to be completely oxidized and thus should have an even
> dark brown colour like what we see in black teas from China or other
> places in India.
>
> Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
> partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
> Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
> oxidized Darjeeling black tea?

On Mar 27, 10:17 am, "Space Cowboy" > wrote:
> Commercial brands of Darjeeling are fully oxidized. The dry and spent
> leaf is black. Estate brands of Dareeling vary from green to oolong.
> You can buy some that is even white. I think estate Darjeeling is
> like Japanese sencha, what we get in th West is what the locals
> followed by the Germans don't like. The real problem with Darjeeling
> it might be something else especially if the leaf doesn't look
> consistent. You also hear complaints it ain't what it use to be.
> There are one or two who know their Darjeeling so maybe they'll chime
> in. I prefer commerciall Darjeeling over estate flushes. The
> competition guarantees the product.
>
> Jim
>
> On Mar 27, 1:49 am, "sjschen" > wrote:
>
> > Ever since I started drinking Darjeeling black teas, I've noticed they
> > always seem ot contain a variable mixture of dark brown and green
> > leaves. Looking more carefully at the unfurled leaves last weekend, I
> > found I could easily also pick out many partially oxidized (red-edged
> > green) leaves. This confuses me a bit, since I thought that black tea
> > was supposed to be completely oxidized and thus should have an even
> > dark brown colour like what we see in black teas from China or other
> > places in India.
>
> > Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
> > partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
> > Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
> > oxidized Darjeeling black tea?

So all the green and partially oxidized leaves in Darjeeling black
teas are really not intentional... meaning that the mixed oxidation
leaves from what we are seeing in single-estate Darjeelings is from
bad quality control? That would be kinda sad indeed. I'm hoping for
sanity sake that it's more like what Scott said above in that this is
the "New Darjeeling style" for making "black tea".

"sjschen" > writes:

> So all the green and partially oxidized leaves in Darjeeling black
> teas are really not intentional... meaning that the mixed oxidation
> leaves from what we are seeing in single-estate Darjeelings is from
> bad quality control? That would be kinda sad indeed. I'm hoping for
> sanity sake that it's more like what Scott said above in that this is
> the "New Darjeeling style" for making "black tea".

Sure, they're intentional. The market for high-end Darjeeling, which,
as Jim noted, is led by Japanese and German customers, *wants* those
green leaves in the mix with the darker ones. There's been a similar
trend over recent decades in Taiwanese and Chinese oolongs.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 27, 7:17 am, "Space Cowboy" > wrote:
> Commercial brands of Darjeeling are fully oxidized. The dry and spent
> leaf is black. Estate brands of Dareeling vary from green to oolong.
> You can buy some that is even white. I think estate Darjeeling is
> like Japanese sencha, what we get in th West is what the locals
> followed by the Germans don't like. The real problem with Darjeeling
> it might be something else especially if the leaf doesn't look
> consistent. You also hear complaints it ain't what it use to be.
> There are one or two who know their Darjeeling so maybe they'll chime
> in. I prefer commerciall Darjeeling over estate flushes. The
> competition guarantees the product.
>
> Jim
>
> On Mar 27, 1:49 am, "sjschen" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ever since I started drinking Darjeeling black teas, I've noticed they
> > always seem ot contain a variable mixture of dark brown and green
> > leaves. Looking more carefully at the unfurled leaves last weekend, I
> > found I could easily also pick out many partially oxidized (red-edged
> > green) leaves. This confuses me a bit, since I thought that black tea
> > was supposed to be completely oxidized and thus should have an even
> > dark brown colour like what we see in black teas from China or other
> > places in India.
>
> > Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
> > partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
> > Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
> > oxidized Darjeeling black tea?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ah,....very interesting. I just received a parcel of Darjeelings that
I ordered directly from India. The estate Darjeelings:Rohini, Goomtee,
Maikaibari, Hillton etc. are a finer quality leaf - bronzed, red and
green partially oxidized and quite tasty. Several of these, were,
indeed, called "oolongs". These were, for me, lacking what I would
call "a finish" and could not be infused more than three or four times
without becoming truly insipid.
In the same order, I purchased "gift packages". These are absolutely
lovely little brocade bags, zippered with tiny bells, that are often
"taken with" for travel in India. The Darjeelings in these bags was
much more like my childhood Darjeeling tea - darker, not very complex
and can be infused several times (because of the stronger
oxidation ?). Although, very wrapped in very pretty packaging, the tea
was more one-dimensional and not marked to any particular estate.
Just my opinion.
Shen

On Mar 27, 11:11 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "sjschen" > writes:
> > So all the green and partially oxidized leaves in Darjeeling black
> > teas are really not intentional... meaning that the mixed oxidation
> > leaves from what we are seeing in single-estate Darjeelings is from
> > bad quality control? That would be kinda sad indeed. I'm hoping for
> > sanity sake that it's more like what Scott said above in that this is
> > the "New Darjeeling style" for making "black tea".
>
> Sure, they're intentional. The market for high-end Darjeeling, which,
> as Jim noted, is led by Japanese and German customers, *wants* those
> green leaves in the mix with the darker ones. There's been a similar
> trend over recent decades in Taiwanese and Chinese oolongs.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Hmm... that would mean that calling most of the Darjeelings we consume
"black tea" is a misnomer. Maybe, one should consider it to be more of
an "estate blend" or an oolong then. To me, the latte sorta makes
sense, since the Darjeeling oolongs that I've tried really reminded me
much of their black teas, as well as vice-versa.

On 2007-03-28, sjschen > wrote:
> On Mar 27, 11:11 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>> "sjschen" > writes:

>> > So all the green and partially oxidized leaves in Darjeeling black
>> > teas are really not intentional... meaning that the mixed oxidation
>> > leaves from what we are seeing in single-estate Darjeelings is from
>> > bad quality control? That would be kinda sad indeed. I'm hoping for
>> > sanity sake that it's more like what Scott said above in that this
>> > is the "New Darjeeling style" for making "black tea".

>> Sure, they're intentional. The market for high-end Darjeeling,
>> which, as Jim noted, is led by Japanese and German customers, *wants*
>> those green leaves in the mix with the darker ones. There's been a
>> similar trend over recent decades in Taiwanese and Chinese oolongs.

> Hmm... that would mean that calling most of the Darjeelings we consume
> "black tea" is a misnomer. Maybe, one should consider it to be more of
> an "estate blend" or an oolong then.

I had never really tried a Darjeeling, so when I was at Chado tearoom
recently, I got a Castleton (sp?) first flush to try (I just asked the
guy there to recommend something, and he suggested that one, after I
said that I didn't drink my tea w/ milk or sugar).

I believe they have it classified as a black tea. To me, it seems very
delicate, with similarities to Bai Hao ("Oriental Beauty"), and even
some white teas I've tried. The leaves / buds are small, and they don't
seem completely oxidized to me.

w

The magic of Darjeeling tea is "At what time should you arrest the
fermentation". Technically 90% of Darjeeling black teas are Oolong
because they are fermented only upto a certain percentage.

In my words : In Darjeeling - The master tea maker called the Factory
Babu - becomes the one who performs the miracle of Darjeeling Tea, he
ensures that every roll - imparts an aroma with its own personality.
The slow, natural forces of dying, is - accelerated by heat, light and
humidity, and at a critical time of climax - this fusion is arrested.
The process is a mystery, the quality is the manifestation of the
magic.

Playing with fermentation has always been the key factor in Darjeeling
teas. No one till date has been able to determine - the time or
percentage - something that only comes with experience - for that you
need to stand and make tea for several years.

So ......... Darjeeling tea is a mystery...............

www.lochantea.com

sjschen wrote:
> ... To me, the latte sorta makes sense ...

Please remember that this is a TEA group, with or without milk.

On Apr 1, 11:01 am, DogMa > wrote:
> sjschen wrote:
> > ... To me, the latte sorta makes sense ...
>
> Please remember that this is a TEA group, with or without milk.


Of course it is. "Latter" was what I meant, " "latte" was typo on my
part. If you reread the post, you'll see it makes more sense

Space Cowboy schrieb:
> Commercial brands of Darjeeling are fully oxidized. The dry and spent
> leaf is black. Estate brands of Dareeling vary from green to oolong.
> You can buy some that is even white. I think estate Darjeeling is
> like Japanese sencha, what we get in th West is what the locals
> followed by the Germans don't like.

Hi and sorry,

I'd like some help in interpretation. The locals, presumably of India,
don't like their black tea green, so the Germans don't either, and the
green stuff goes the West, which excludes Germany?

For the record, I in Germany noticed a trend towards a more colorful
Darjeeling, too, but that may be due more to my purely biographical
changing my sources than to a trend in general. On the other hand,
what Indians seem to miss in Germany so they have it shipped from
their families is CTC tea for their chai.

klaus

On Mar 27, 3:49 am, "sjschen" > wrote:
> Ever since I started drinking Darjeeling black teas, I've noticed they
> always seem ot contain a variable mixture of dark brown and green
> leaves. Looking more carefully at the unfurled leaves last weekend, I
> found I could easily also pick out many partially oxidized (red-edged
> green) leaves. This confuses me a bit, since I thought that black tea
> was supposed to be completely oxidized and thus should have an even
> dark brown colour like what we see in black teas from China or other
> places in India.
>
> Or is Darjeeling black tea supposed to be a mix of un-oxidized,
> partially oxidized, and fully oxidized leaves? Or is it the climate in
> Darjeeling that contributes to the a special colour of a fully
> oxidized Darjeeling black tea?

To me, personally, Darjeeling means too delicate, light, or, well,
weak for a morning tea. After that, I don't care whether it's called
black, green, or something else. I think there are thousands of
people out there who are happy to take my share of Darjeeling, and
leave me to my Ceylons, Nilgiris, and Assams. Toci

klaus schmirler > writes:

> Space Cowboy schrieb:
> > Commercial brands of Darjeeling are fully oxidized. The dry and spent
> > leaf is black. Estate brands of Dareeling vary from green to oolong.
> > You can buy some that is even white. I think estate Darjeeling is
> > like Japanese sencha, what we get in th West is what the locals
> > followed by the Germans don't like.
>
> Hi and sorry,
>
> I'd like some help in interpretation. The locals, presumably of India,
> don't like their black tea green, so the Germans don't either, and the
> green stuff goes the West, which excludes Germany?
>
> For the record, I in Germany noticed a trend towards a more colorful
> Darjeeling, too, but that may be due more to my purely biographical
> changing my sources than to a trend in general. On the other hand,
> what Indians seem to miss in Germany so they have it shipped from
> their families is CTC tea for their chai.

I've ordered a cup or pot of Darjeeling a few times in Germany. Each
time, it was pretty close to the green end of the scale.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Well, this is an interesting topic.

My understanding of the Darjeeling mystery:

Darjeeling is traditionally a black tea. Due to this tradition it
remains a black tea, but thanks to the trends that Scott mentioned up
top towards a 'new darjeeling', a variety of teas made from the CS in
that region, which are technically green or oolong, are uniformly
called darjeeling. Thanks to this, depending on how focused your local
tea seller is on breadth of darjeeling, we are blessed to be able to
find a full spectrum of very green to black first flush teas. From the
second flush on, the trend seems to be to follow with stronger
oxidations. Many American sellers, depending on taste of course, tend
to choose a greener first flush to show off the marked difference
between it and the follow harvests. Of course their European (more UK
than anywhere else) counterparts tend to prefer the darker, more
wholesome first flush.

Shen's mention of an "insipid" quality after a few steeps could either
be due to the infusing of the tea with boiling water, which is great
if you have one of the more traditional black darjeelings, but can
adversely affect the greener modern varieties, or of course it may
just not be good tea? I would love to hear if you try out other
temperatures Shen.

I have tried a few of the first flush darjeelings for the season, does
anyone have any thoughts on those they have tried? I have enjoyed the
lemon grass aromas and the sweet citrus mouth of the second and third
infusions in the greener styles, any thoughts?

AMA

Ravenna Roller > wrote:
>I have tried a few of the first flush darjeelings for the season, does
>anyone have any thoughts on those they have tried? I have enjoyed the
>lemon grass aromas and the sweet citrus mouth of the second and third
>infusions in the greener styles, any thoughts?

I just want to say that I have just recently tried the Rohini Enigma,
and it's not exactly like the darjeeling I drank as a kid, but it seems
like a much higher grade version of that. Very open and flowery, with
an incredibly strong fruit and floral flavour when you first sip it,
which decays down into a tannic tea aftertaste but without the grass clipping
sort of flavour that I am accustomed to with modern Darjeelings. Highly
recommended.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

> I just want to say that I have just recently tried the Rohini Enigma,
> and it's not exactly like the darjeeling I drank as a kid, but it seems
> like a much higher grade version of that. Very open and flowery, with
> an incredibly strong fruit and floral flavour when you first sip it,
> which decays down into a tannic tea aftertaste but without the grass clipping
> sort of flavour that I am accustomed to with modern Darjeelings. Highly
> recommended.
> --scott


I will second that opinion. Many of the Darjeelings I have tasted
recently are more reminiscent of oolongs than of red teas. I have been
very impressed by some of the Rohini estate teas of late. There is one
that I nicknamed "Juicy Fruit" because it is so lively. Another very
interesting darjeeling is called "Silver Thunder" which I "think" is
processed more like a white tea.

Now you went and got me in the mood for some, will have to brew it up
after work tonight.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

On May 31, 12:40 am, Mike Petro > wrote:
> > I just want to say that I have just recently tried the Rohini Enigma,
> > and it's not exactly like the darjeeling I drank as a kid, but it seems
> > like a much higher grade version of that. Very open and flowery, with
> > an incredibly strong fruit and floral flavour when you first sip it,
> > which decays down into a tannic tea aftertaste but without the grass clipping
> > sort of flavour that I am accustomed to with modern Darjeelings. Highly
> > recommended.
> > --scott
>
> I will second that opinion. Many of the Darjeelings I have tasted
> recently are more reminiscent of oolongs than of red teas. I have been
> very impressed by some of the Rohini estate teas of late. There is one
> that I nicknamed "Juicy Fruit" because it is so lively. Another very
> interesting darjeeling is called "Silver Thunder" which I "think" is
> processed more like a white tea.
>
> Now you went and got me in the mood for some, will have to brew it up
> after work tonight.
>
> Mikehttp://www.pu-erh.net

Dear friends,

Ankit Lochan has posted an observation which indeed is from up close!
However, let me try to Demystify the Green in Darjeeling Black.
Traditionally, Darjeeling Planters pluck very fine. And then these
tender shoots, which as it is comes from the tiny chinary varieties,
are subjected to high degree of Withering. Withered Leaf : Made Tea
ratio of 60 % is not uncommon.
What happens due to such high degree of wither is that the shoots have
just sufficient amount of juice concentrates in them to ooze out and
cover itself when rolled under pressure.
Now comes the cach ; when the average recovery is 60 %, it is but
natural that there would be some shoots which have virtually dried up
during withering. These shoots are the ones which do get cell damage
and subsequent Oxidation, but lack the juices to cover themselves
with.
And hence, they remain Green inspite of being Black!

Any comments?

Regards,
Jayesh pandya.

I've had every major estate green or oolong Darjeeling over the past
couple of years since my local tea shoppe opened. I can say none
really ever made me regret when I ran out including Rohini. I keep
reading about the wonderful taste of Darjeeling. There was the one
poster who traveled between Darjeeling and Germany who seemed to make
the point the second flush (after the rains) is the desirable
Darjeeling. I checked my old labels and everything is first flush.
So I'm curious what flush is this?

Jim

PS It looks like to me a great Darjeeling would have to fall in your
lap more than what is available in the market place.

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> I just want to say that I have just recently tried the Rohini Enigma,
> and it's not exactly like the darjeeling I drank as a kid, but it seems
> like a much higher grade version of that. Very open and flowery, with
> an incredibly strong fruit and floral flavour when you first sip it,
> which decays down into a tannic tea aftertaste but without the grass clipping
> sort of flavour that I am accustomed to with modern Darjeelings. Highly
> recommended.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On May 31, 9:01 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:

> PS It looks like to me a great Darjeeling would have to fall in your
> lap more than what is available in the market place.

This is definitely true in my case. I have some friends, with direct
estate connections, who have hooked me up some "pride of the estate"
lots. A marked difference from the average online fare. I have one
friend in particular who has started retailing these truly exclusive
lots, often only a kg or two is made available but they are truly
spectacular as far as the genre goes. One particularly noteworthy one
(Red Thunder I think) was bought entirely by TTG in NYC. So they are
around, just not plentiful.

--
Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Jayesh has hit the nail on the head. Very hard wither causes some
fine leaf to be so dry it cannot ferment, so remains green. For those
who are picky about nomenclature these particles are actualy White
Tea. The moisture, less fine leaf, does ferment to become Black Tea.
Unlike an Oolong which may be 50% fermented overall (all the particles
the same fermentation) the early flush Darjeeling is 50% fermented on
AVERAGE. I resurrect an old post (10 Jan 2004) below - Darjeeling
results from Cause No. 6. Incidently the main reason for change from a
fully fermented to a patchily fermented Darjeeling was that Lyons
imported vast amounts of fully fermented Darjeeling into UK for their
Maison Lyon blend - fully fermented as in those days Darjeeling was
taken with milk. When Lyons discontinued their blend (in the 1960s
(?)) the Darjeeling producers had quickly to find a new market - they
found Gemany and had to lighten the cup as it was to be drunk without
milk. Anyone looking for the "old fashioned" Darjeeling taste should
specify an Autumnal flush - for example Darjeeling Autumn Leaves
(Code: BI07) from www.nbtea.co.uk

Quote from rfdt Archives:

Yes Jon, these teas are indeed less fermented "greenish blacks".
There
are several ways to make a "green" tea (which is essentially a tea
without oxidation) or a "greenish tea" which is a tea with minimal
oxidation. In a tea factory some of these are purposeful methods,
others the results of poor processing.

The main causes a
1. Inactivate oxidising enzymes before rolling using steam (Japanese
method)= green tea
2. Inactivate oxidising enzymes using dry heat (Chinese panning or
roasting method) = green tea
3. Avoid initiating oxidation by very gentle handling and drying =
white tea (a variant of green).
4. Oxidise for a very short time (minimal rolling, or CTC cutting) -
dry as soon as short rolling or CTC cutting is complete =
insufficient
time for full oxidation to black = anything from a green to a
greenish
black tea.
5. Oxidise at low temperature - this slows down enzyme action =
partial oxidation only = greenish black.
6. Hard wither (to a very low leaf moisture content) - this inhibits
enzyme action = partial oxidation only = greenish black
7. Insufficient oxygen present during oxidation (fermenting layers
too
thick) = partial oxidation only = anything from green to greenish
black

The partially oxidised oolongs fall into group 4. above though they
have other processing inputs (sun withering and leaf agitation and
high firing) that give their unique character.

The "greenish blacks" you find at high elevations in Sri Lanka and
Darjeeling are the result of partial oxidation due to very hard
withers and cool ambient temperature. It is perfectly possible to
make
a fully oxidised (black) Uva or Darjeeling, and in fact during the
rains in Darjeeling when a hard wither cannot be achieved, this is
exactly what happens (but these are not exported). Similarly we had
to heat up fermenter air to 90 deg F in early spring in Turkey as the
cool weather gave us a greenish tea - not at all what the Turks like
to drink.

The type of tea and degree of oxidation required is driven by the
market (or the producer's perception of the market). As increasingly
Darjeelings and flavoury high grown Ceylons are bought by non-milked
tea markets, so the dark srong liquors required in the English market
have given way to lighter ones, and the dry leaf shows green colour
rather than jet black . Producers could revert if the market
required
- the process is flexible and a skilled manager can alter his teas at
will. My point (in my previous posting) was to remind tea lovers that
a
tea's characteristics may change with time even if the names stay the
same.

Unquote


Nigel at Teacraft




On May 31, 12:48 pm, teapandya > wrote:

>
> Ankit Lochan has posted an observation which indeed is from up close!
> However, let me try to Demystify the Green in Darjeeling Black.
> Traditionally, Darjeeling Planters pluck very fine. And then these
> tender shoots, which as it is comes from the tiny chinary varieties,
> are subjected to high degree of Withering. Withered Leaf : Made Tea
> ratio of 60 % is not uncommon.
> What happens due to such high degree of wither is that the shoots have
> just sufficient amount of juice concentrates in them to ooze out and
> cover itself when rolled under pressure.
> Now comes the cach ; when the average recovery is 60 %, it is but
> natural that there would be some shoots which have virtually dried up
> during withering. These shoots are the ones which do get cell damage
> and subsequent Oxidation, but lack the juices to cover themselves
> with.
> And hence, they remain Green inspite of being Black!
>
> Any comments?
>
> Regards,
> Jayesh pandya.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -