I have been drinking loose leaf tea daily for somewhere over a year
now, and have largely focused on developing a sense for what is out
there in the very broadest sense: Japanese Green, Chinese Green, light
oolong, dark oolong, pu-er (cooked, raw), assam, darjeeling, china
black(red), etc. Now I am at the point where I am trying to focus on
the finer distinctions in various teas, such as regional
characteristics, production techniques, time of harvest, etc. I am
doing this casually, mind you, but with an intent to slowly learn as
much as possible about tea for my own personal enjoyment. I have thus
far focused a bit on taste and I think my sense is developing. I have
some problems brewing consistently, but I now notice things that I
originally didn't even think about at all a year ago: e.g., mouth feel
rather than just taste.

In an attempt to evolve my evaluation of tea, I am thinking about
bringing a slightly more analytical focus to spent tea leaves. Does
anyone have any good resources in this regard? Here are some things I
have noticed:

1. tea leaf shape appears largely the same, but size varies. Oolongs
are larger leafed, greens are typically smaller, often with just tea
buds. Pu-er is typically large as well. I suppose this is related to
the ability of delicate young (i.e., small) teas being able to
withstand the harsher production techniques required in the oolong
manufacture.

2. whole leaf/part leaf: many teas, such as Japanese tea and India
tea, are not whole leaf. At first I thought of this as a negative
characteristic, but now I am more interested in learning what torn
leaves contribute to tea. I generally like Japanese greens and many
India teas, so how can the fact that they are cut (possibly machine
harvested?) be a bad thing?

3. leaf color: of course, green tea is largely green, but not all
green's are equal. Gyokuro is famous for being shaded and a darker
green. I had a longjing that was yellowish. Oolongs and black teas are
darker. Pu-er teas seem to reveal a lot regarding color. At some point
online, I even saw an analysis of color *patterns* on tea leaves
(e.g., examining where the leaves should be red in a properly
processed tea).

4. leaf condition: what really made me start thinking about tea leaves
more carefully is that I was drinking a tea after trying gongfu
brewing in a small cheap yixing-style pot for the first time and I
noticed that all of the leaves were crinkled and semi-furled
afterwards. I wondered if it was because I put too many in the pot,
but I don't think that is it. Why does some tea unfurl and some tea
not unfurl--is it a result of roasting? Some of the tea (my example is
a low grade Kings Tea dark oolong from Ten Ren) seems extraordinarily
dark--almost black. I have seen this in Pu-er as well. In the case of
pu-er, are there ways to determine wet storage/dry storage from leaf
condition after brewing?

5. miscellaneous. pouring from a gaiwan through a tea filter, I have
noticed that some teas produce a lot of white/yellow "fuzz" that I at
one point collected and rolled into a soft ball (not sure why). I
received lots of fuzz from green tea with lots of buds, so thought
the buds may be the source at first. But I have also seen it in
Oriental Beauty, which I had thought of as a dark oolong. What does it
signify? Also, some tea leaves seem shiny and firm after brewing, some
are dull and fall apart. I have seen some talk of differences in the
edge shape of leaves (jagged or not?). I have heard mention of certain
teas having holes in the leaves from tiny bugs--is this a sign that
the leaves are organic? picked at a certain time of year?

I often find myself looking at tea leaves after I drink tea, but I am
never sure what I am looking for. I know there are a ton of different
things that can likely be told from leaves, and maybe there is no easy
way to catalog it all into an easy reference. But if anyone has
resources on this topic, I would be interested in hearing more. If
anyone has thoughts about the observations above, or other
observations, I would also be curious to read them. Sorry for long
post.

Interesting subject! I always think you can read tea leaves

1) I think you are probably right in that many of the teas that
require heavier processing cannot use buds, but that is obviously not
always the case. I think in the case of oolongs, it will be difficult
to do what they do with the leaves with young buds. I suspect the
taste profile will be completely changed. Having had an Indian oolong
recently made mostly with buds, I have to say it tastes more like a
black tea. I think it's probably because fermentation level is
difficult to control with small buds? Puerh, and some other teas, on
the other hand, are large by nature. Even a small puerh bud is big
compared to a longjing bud.

2) Whole/part leaf depends a lot, afaik, on processing techniques.
If a tea is heavily roasted, for example, it will be odd if it were
still mostly whole leaves, as the process of roasting (and turning the
leaves) will inevitably result in broken leaves. CTC or other machine
processing will cause breakage, and so will manual process techniques
that do the same. I think for some Japanese teas, at least, they roll
it very, very vigorously, which I'd imagine will mean some leaves are
more broken?

3) I think every tea has a particular colour pattern/hue. Colours do
change though. A yuqian longjing should be yellowish from what I've
seen before, but a stale longjing can also be yellowish (slightly
different kind of yellow, but hard to tell unless you've seen them).
Wuyi oolongs all look the same with the same blackish brownish tint,
but when unfurled they can look very different. Puerh runs the
gamut. Colour of dry leaves is a bad way to tell teas apart, IMHO.
Spent tea leaves do reveal a lot more that way....

4) In the case of puerh, I think you can definitely have some clues
with regards to storage condition just by looking at the spent
leaves. A rough way of telling them apart is that wet stored teas are
blacker, a little less flexible, with uneven colours and what not,
while dry stored leaves are more likely to be brownish and more
uniform in colour, as well as being a bit more flexible and retains a
certain sense of freshness that wet stored teas don't. I wouldn't say
this is all there is to it, but it is at least partly what you can use
to tell storage condition apart.

5) AFAIK having bug bites on the leaf is an Oriental Beauty
trademark... the bitten spots promote fermentation.

I think taking pictures of the spent leaves and storing them in an
archive has been a useful exercise for me to compare teas and keep my
memory fresh. Maybe you can do the same?

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

On Feb 26, 11:47 am, "cha bing" > wrote:
> I have been drinking loose leaf tea daily for somewhere over a year
> now, and have largely focused on developing a sense for what is out
> there in the very broadest sense: Japanese Green, Chinese Green, light
> oolong, dark oolong, pu-er (cooked, raw), assam, darjeeling, china
> black(red), etc. Now I am at the point where I am trying to focus on
> the finer distinctions in various teas, such as regional
> characteristics, production techniques, time of harvest, etc. I am
> doing this casually, mind you, but with an intent to slowly learn as
> much as possible about tea for my own personal enjoyment. I have thus
> far focused a bit on taste and I think my sense is developing. I have
> some problems brewing consistently, but I now notice things that I
> originally didn't even think about at all a year ago: e.g., mouth feel
> rather than just taste.
>
> In an attempt to evolve my evaluation of tea, I am thinking about
> bringing a slightly more analytical focus to spent tea leaves. Does
> anyone have any good resources in this regard? Here are some things I
> have noticed:
>
> 1. tea leaf shape appears largely the same, but size varies. Oolongs
> are larger leafed, greens are typically smaller, often with just tea
> buds. Pu-er is typically large as well. I suppose this is related to
> the ability of delicate young (i.e., small) teas being able to
> withstand the harsher production techniques required in the oolong
> manufacture.
>
> 2. whole leaf/part leaf: many teas, such as Japanese tea and India
> tea, are not whole leaf. At first I thought of this as a negative
> characteristic, but now I am more interested in learning what torn
> leaves contribute to tea. I generally like Japanese greens and many
> India teas, so how can the fact that they are cut (possibly machine
> harvested?) be a bad thing?
>
> 3. leaf color: of course, green tea is largely green, but not all
> green's are equal. Gyokuro is famous for being shaded and a darker
> green. I had a longjing that was yellowish. Oolongs and black teas are
> darker. Pu-er teas seem to reveal a lot regarding color. At some point
> online, I even saw an analysis of color *patterns* on tea leaves
> (e.g., examining where the leaves should be red in a properly
> processed tea).
>
> 4. leaf condition: what really made me start thinking about tea leaves
> more carefully is that I was drinking a tea after trying gongfu
> brewing in a small cheap yixing-style pot for the first time and I
> noticed that all of the leaves were crinkled and semi-furled
> afterwards. I wondered if it was because I put too many in the pot,
> but I don't think that is it. Why does some tea unfurl and some tea
> not unfurl--is it a result of roasting? Some of the tea (my example is
> a low grade Kings Tea dark oolong from Ten Ren) seems extraordinarily
> dark--almost black. I have seen this in Pu-er as well. In the case of
> pu-er, are there ways to determine wet storage/dry storage from leaf
> condition after brewing?
>
> 5. miscellaneous. pouring from a gaiwan through a tea filter, I have
> noticed that some teas produce a lot of white/yellow "fuzz" that I at
> one point collected and rolled into a soft ball (not sure why). I
> received lots of fuzz from green tea with lots of buds, so thought
> the buds may be the source at first. But I have also seen it in
> Oriental Beauty, which I had thought of as a dark oolong. What does it
> signify? Also, some tea leaves seem shiny and firm after brewing, some
> are dull and fall apart. I have seen some talk of differences in the
> edge shape of leaves (jagged or not?). I have heard mention of certain
> teas having holes in the leaves from tiny bugs--is this a sign that
> the leaves are organic? picked at a certain time of year?
>
> I often find myself looking at tea leaves after I drink tea, but I am
> never sure what I am looking for. I know there are a ton of different
> things that can likely be told from leaves, and maybe there is no easy
> way to catalog it all into an easy reference. But if anyone has
> resources on this topic, I would be interested in hearing more. If
> anyone has thoughts about the observations above, or other
> observations, I would also be curious to read them. Sorry for long
> post.

I'm constantly amazed at the behavior of tea leaves in a pot. I'll
agree with your general conclusions but each pot is entertaining. I
often guage brewing time by tea leaf behavior. When the leaves start
to look water logged I pour. I just had some Yunnan silver needles
and I'd say it took less than a minute for them to form a dam. They
don't bob like the Fujian version. I can say each tea has it's own
density. I also had a pot of BiLoChun and I could count the snails in
my palm but the infused leaf wouldn't. If the infused leaf clings to
the side of the pot when I finish pouring it means to me another
infusion. Spent leaf will loose its stickyness and will fall back in
the pot. Besides leaf in a pot you can tell much about lesser grades
like fines and CTC. The smaller grades that can spin back up in the
pot mean longer brewing times. The ones that don't shorter. I think
each pot is a unique experience. The more action in the pot the more
taste in the cup.

Jim

On Feb 25, 8:47 pm, "cha bing" > wrote:
....I delete you...
> I often find myself looking at tea leaves after I drink tea, but I am
> never sure what I am looking for. I know there are a ton of different
> things that can likely be told from leaves, and maybe there is no easy
> way to catalog it all into an easy reference. But if anyone has
> resources on this topic, I would be interested in hearing more. If
> anyone has thoughts about the observations above, or other
> observations, I would also be curious to read them. Sorry for long
> post.

"MarshalN" > writes:

> [...leaf appearance...]
> 5) AFAIK having bug bites on the leaf is an Oriental Beauty
> trademark... the bitten spots promote fermentation.

Yes, the bug bites are the key to OB, but I don't think greater
fermentation is what makes the difference. I once saw a scientific
presentation that established experimentally (!) that the bug bites
encourage the living leaf to produce greater amounts of some aromatic
compounds. Presumably, from an evolutionary standpoint, these
compounds are "intended" as a bug repellent. In any case, this
happens in the living leaf, before any fermentation happens during
manufacture.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
recent addition: tai di cha

"MarshalN" > writes:

> [...leaf appearance...]
> 4) In the case of puerh, I think you can definitely have some clues
> with regards to storage condition just by looking at the spent
> leaves. A rough way of telling them apart is that wet stored teas are
> blacker, a little less flexible, with uneven colours and what not,
> while dry stored leaves are more likely to be brownish and more
> uniform in colour, as well as being a bit more flexible and retains a
> certain sense of freshness that wet stored teas don't. I wouldn't say
> this is all there is to it, but it is at least partly what you can use
> to tell storage condition apart.

Speaking of diminished flexibility, I've noticed that with non-Pu'er
heicha it's common to find spent leaves that are remarkably stiff. I
sometimes wonder, did this leaf ever live? I don't recall running
into this with cooked Pu'er, which I *think* is manufactured in a
similar way. But who knows, really?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Cha Bing/Marshall

What a fascinating topic. Very vast. I'll add my bits below for (1)
and (3):

1. Oolong tea is made from slightly more matured leaves with a
different chemical profile, that when processed, resulted in a richer
fragrance. Hence the leaves are larger than green tea.

Black tea and (I think) pu-er teas are made from the Assam variety,
which is faster growing and have larger leaves than the sinesis
variety for the Chinese and Japanese green tea.

Contrary to what you said, shape is a big factor when classifying
green tea leaves. Other ways of classifications are processing methods
and regions of production.

3. Colour depends on many factors, such as origin and processing.
White tea is white because it is covered with hairs, which tea makers
left alone when they make them. Some green tea can appears white. Of
course, black tea is black because of fermentation. Gyugaro is darker
green because they are shaded away from the sun.

Longjing can have different colour because they are basically
different type of longjing, as well as due to age as Marshall kindly
mention.

For Xihu Longjing tea, the yellowish type is ShiFeng Longjing and is
the most esteemed in China. The greenish type is known as MeiWu
Longjing or just Xihu Longjing. They look better but taste less good.

They are lots of fake Shifeng Longjing - people would over pan fry
them yellow to sell them as one.

Hope it adds to the discussion.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

" > writes:

> [...]
> Black tea and (I think) pu-er teas are made from the Assam variety,
> which is faster growing and have larger leaves than the sinesis
> variety for the Chinese and Japanese green tea.

If by "black" you mean "fully oxidized", I'm afraid there are Chinese
blacks ("red" in Chinese classification) that are made from small-leaf
cultivars also used for greens and whites, e.g. Keemun (Qimen.) And
I've read that the famous seeds taken from China and planted in
Darjeeling for the best Indian black tea were C. sinensis sinensis.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Feb 26, 7:57 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "MarshalN" > writes:
> > [...leaf appearance...]
> > 5) AFAIK having bug bites on the leaf is an Oriental Beauty
> > trademark... the bitten spots promote fermentation.
>
> Yes, the bug bites are the key to OB, but I don't think greater
> fermentation is what makes the difference. I once saw a scientific
> presentation that established experimentally (!) that the bug bites
> encourage the living leaf to produce greater amounts of some aromatic
> compounds. Presumably, from an evolutionary standpoint, these
> compounds are "intended" as a bug repellent. In any case, this
> happens in the living leaf, before any fermentation happens during
> manufacture.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> recent addition: tai di cha

AFAIK, on non-OB teas, bug bites is an indication of less reliance on
using insecticide by the farmer.

Thanks all for the very interesting posts. Tea seems so much more
cerebal than that other popular caffeinated beverage (which I
occasionally drink and appreciate greatly). I particularly liked the
idea about watching how the leaves react to the water and the sides of
the cup. I have read about the joys of watching certain green teas
when brewed in a clear glass, but I have never thought much about how
the way a tea reacts to water might tell me about the leaf.

I also like the idea of cataloguing tea photos. In fact, I began
reading MarshalN's blog some time ago primarily because I found the
photos so fascinating. (What kind of lighting do you use to take those
pictures, anyway?)

At one point, when I first started drinking tea and trying to figure
out what it was all about, I sorted through each spent pile of leaves
to find the best representatives of each kind of tea I had. I took the
leaves, pressed them in a book over night, and scotch taped them to a
sheet of paper, which I proceeded to pull out and show to everyone in
my office who hinted that they might like tea. Generally, the sheet of
tea leaves may have been a bit over-the-top for the casual drinker
(judging from the looks of concern I received whenever I brought it
out). But the reason I did it, and that reason has been affirmed by
these posts, is because having that visual reminder of where the brew
came from somehow made tea-drinking seem more intriguing--something to
ponder and figure out.

Anyone know of any books that have a strong photographic component,
sort of like a field guide for tea drinkers? One thing that is clear
from everyone's posts is that this subject is indeed (as Julian
stated) "very vast." Creating my own log may take some time,
especially since I never seem to have a camera ready when I am
drinking tea.

http://houdeasianart.com/download/Oolong_Species.pdf

I just found the above interesting article, which shows some great
pictures of different oolong cultivars--leaves are indeed shaped very
differently from one cultivar to the next.

Cha Bing

Great find.

The varieties of of tea shapes after processing are even greater.
Broadly speaking they can be classified further into three types:
broad/flat (e.g. dragonwell), rounded (e.g. gunpowder) and thread-
like. A Chinese tea book even classified them into eleven shapes -
just for green tea alone. Quite staggering.

Pretty much of the books I use are Chinese, and it is such a hassle to
order from China. Sorry wasn't able to give any references to help.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

How does the opacity of the tea when it is poured define the quality,
like for example I had a high quality japanese sencha and it was light
green yellow and very clear then I had one which was lower quality and
it was a little cloudy. I s this true of all teas in general?

"magicleaf" > writes:

> How does the opacity of the tea when it is poured define the quality,
> like for example I had a high quality japanese sencha and it was light
> green yellow and very clear then I had one which was lower quality and
> it was a little cloudy. I s this true of all teas in general?

No, not even for sencha, in my opinion. A tea can be cloudy because
of the tiny "hairs" characteristic of buds and young leaves.

I think you'll have a hard time coming up with a rule, however trivial,
that really applies to the whole range of tea.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

oleg shteynbuk > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > No, not even for sencha, in my opinion. A tea can be cloudy because
> > of the tiny "hairs" characteristic of buds and young leaves.
> > I think you'll have a hard time coming up with a rule, however
> > trivial,
> > that really applies to the whole range of tea.
>
> what about pu-erh, i usually look if tea is clear or cloudy but there
> are pu-erh with buds too, probably not too many of them as i have only
> one or two with buds and haven't tried them for a while.

Yes, there's a genre of Pu'er often called Silver Tips that's
basically all-bud. But that isn't all; lots of cakes and bricks have
buds in the mix along with mature leaves. And who knows, with Pu'er I
wouldn't be surprised if there were other good reasons for the liquor
being cloudy. (Not to mention that virtually all cooked Pu'er is
cloudy.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
> No, not even for sencha, in my opinion. A tea can be cloudy because
> of the tiny "hairs" characteristic of buds and young leaves.
>
> I think you'll have a hard time coming up with a rule, however trivial,
> that really applies to the whole range of tea.

what about pu-erh, i usually look if tea is clear or cloudy but there
are pu-erh with buds too, probably not too many of them as i have only
one or two with buds and haven't tried them for a while.

Lewis Perin wrote:
> oleg shteynbuk > writes:
>
>> Lewis Perin wrote:
>>> No, not even for sencha, in my opinion. A tea can be cloudy because
>>> of the tiny "hairs" characteristic of buds and young leaves.
>>> I think you'll have a hard time coming up with a rule, however
>>> trivial,
>>> that really applies to the whole range of tea.
>> what about pu-erh, i usually look if tea is clear or cloudy but there
>> are pu-erh with buds too, probably not too many of them as i have only
>> one or two with buds and haven't tried them for a while.
>
> Yes, there's a genre of Pu'er often called Silver Tips that's
> basically all-bud. But that isn't all; lots of cakes and bricks have
> buds in the mix along with mature leaves. And who knows, with Pu'er I
> wouldn't be surprised if there were other good reasons for the liquor
> being cloudy. (Not to mention that virtually all cooked Pu'er is
> cloudy.)
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

once bought same cake with and without buds, of course ancient wild,
etc.. with buds was more expensive but jury is still out which of
them is better, at least for me it make sense to get cakes without buds.

for cooked i have some pretty good ones that tea doesn't look cloudy
just dark, if you can see thru dark

also read, don't remember the source, that by pu-erh tea liquor you can
judge factory processing skills, like kill green process,it should be
clear - if cloudy no good, maybe it was about cakes without buds.

Interesting, As far as black teas go, certain regions or qualities
are rated better for iced tea as they do not cloud up when iced, I was
told argentina has a very good base tea for these ice teas.
I have just started learning about tea and actually find all the
different aspects of it quite fascinating.

magicleaf > wrote:
>How does the opacity of the tea when it is poured define the quality,
>like for example I had a high quality japanese sencha and it was light
>green yellow and very clear then I had one which was lower quality and
>it was a little cloudy. I s this true of all teas in general?

Not really. Cloudiness is usually the result of dissolved tannins linking
up together and not staying dissolved. It an also be the result of hard
water.

A tea that is more tannic will tend to be more cloudy. If you ice tea
down, it will tend to become cloudy too since the tannins don't stay in
solution as well at the lower temperature.

For a sencha, I could believe that the higher quality ones would have
less tannin, but the same may not be the case for an assam.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

magicleaf > wrote:
>Interesting, As far as black teas go, certain regions or qualities
>are rated better for iced tea as they do not cloud up when iced, I was
>told argentina has a very good base tea for these ice teas.

Argentina has a lot of very cheap low grade tea without a lot of big tannins.
The Lipton's blend sold in the US is has a huge amount of that stuff,
presumably because it's marketed to people who will ice a lot of it and
don't want to spend much money.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Thanks scott,

While we on the subject of leaves, I had drank two different batches
of Jasmine pearl yesterday, some really nice ones too, very white
tippy ends, delicious. The two teas were hard to tell apart other than
the one batch had smaller leaves , than the other but interestingly I
left them to dry on the edge of the table and notice that they
shriveld up like new plant growing from a seed, The base was dark
green and then slowly shaded over to white in a curled looking
shape . What was different here was that the smaller leaf had a much
lighter or whiter tip than the large leaf . Is there a reason for
this, is the white an indication of a higher quality. the jasine had
sweet fragrance and it cam e out on the tongue. i have seen around
some tiny bal and some big ones too. I intend to try em all as this
is god drinking.
I have enjoyed leaving the bals in a sealed bottle sparkling water
over night, makes very refreshing drink.