Many oolongs and Pu'ers, especially aged Pu'ers, can be steeped many
times, with late steeps yielding liquor as good, or even better than,
early ones. This doesn't seem to happen with other styles of tea.
I've often wondered why this is so. One thing these two classes of
tea have in common is that they tend to be manufactured from big
leaves, so perhaps they release their juice slower than small-leaf
teas, but the big-leaf green Taiping Houkui won't go twenty steeps, in
my experience.

Anyone have an idea about this?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.

"Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
"
> Many oolongs and Pu'ers, especially aged Pu'ers, can be steeped many
> times, with late steeps yielding liquor as good, or even better than,
> early ones. This doesn't seem to happen with other styles of tea.
> I've often wondered why this is so. One thing these two classes of
> tea have in common is that they tend to be manufactured from big
> leaves, so perhaps they release their juice slower than small-leaf
> teas, but the big-leaf green Taiping Houkui won't go twenty steeps, in
> my experience.
>
> Anyone have an idea about this?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Dear Lou- Nice to make your aquantance. I love your traslator tool,
thank you. I find that in the green variety, only young Pu-erh's will
wash many times. Even some Lui An teas which are well aged will only
steep a few times. I think it has a lot to do with the leaf base
itself, don't you? No Longjing will steep more than a few times, even
though all the steeps have big flavor.
Of course, a real wild Pu-erh will give many steeps (I steeped a
Simplified CHaracter Pu-erh and it steeped more than 20 times!) I could
not believe it myself, but I did use 10+ grams, and because the cake is
so compressed it took more than 10 times for the leaves to fall apart.
WHen they did they showed great whole leaf formation with great deep
brown color.
Rolled oolongs also give many steeps, but not to the degree of a real
good Pu-erh. I find that each tea needs it's own particular attention
to time and ammount of leaf, there is no real rule from tea to tea. To
me, that is the art of tea, finding the perfect balance of tea, water
and steep time. Thanks...
Indra wrote:
> because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
> technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
> slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.
>
> "Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
> "
> > Many oolongs and Pu'ers, especially aged Pu'ers, can be steeped many
> > times, with late steeps yielding liquor as good, or even better than,
> > early ones. This doesn't seem to happen with other styles of tea.
> > I've often wondered why this is so. One thing these two classes of
> > tea have in common is that they tend to be manufactured from big
> > leaves, so perhaps they release their juice slower than small-leaf
> > teas, but the big-leaf green Taiping Houkui won't go twenty steeps, in
> > my experience.
> >
> > Anyone have an idea about this?
> >
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
> > http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Sorry Lew...not Lou (maybe you CHinese name is Luo!!)
ocp wrote:
> Dear Lou- Nice to make your aquantance. I love your traslator tool,
> thank you. I find that in the green variety, only young Pu-erh's will
> wash many times. Even some Lui An teas which are well aged will only
> steep a few times. I think it has a lot to do with the leaf base
> itself, don't you? No Longjing will steep more than a few times, even
> though all the steeps have big flavor.
> Of course, a real wild Pu-erh will give many steeps (I steeped a
> Simplified CHaracter Pu-erh and it steeped more than 20 times!) I could
> not believe it myself, but I did use 10+ grams, and because the cake is
> so compressed it took more than 10 times for the leaves to fall apart.
> WHen they did they showed great whole leaf formation with great deep
> brown color.
> Rolled oolongs also give many steeps, but not to the degree of a real
> good Pu-erh. I find that each tea needs it's own particular attention
> to time and ammount of leaf, there is no real rule from tea to tea. To
> me, that is the art of tea, finding the perfect balance of tea, water
> and steep time. Thanks...
> Indra wrote:
> > because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
> > technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
> > slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.
> >
> > "Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
> > "
> > > Many oolongs and Pu'ers, especially aged Pu'ers, can be steeped many
> > > times, with late steeps yielding liquor as good, or even better than,
> > > early ones. This doesn't seem to happen with other styles of tea.
> > > I've often wondered why this is so. One thing these two classes of
> > > tea have in common is that they tend to be manufactured from big
> > > leaves, so perhaps they release their juice slower than small-leaf
> > > teas, but the big-leaf green Taiping Houkui won't go twenty steeps, in
> > > my experience.
> > >
> > > Anyone have an idea about this?
> > >
> > > /Lew
> > > ---
> > > Lew Perin /
> > > http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Indra" > writes:
>
> "Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
> "
> > [...why are oolongs and pu'ers so steepy?...]
>
> because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
> technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
> slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.

By that logic, black/red teas should do better than oolongs and
Pu'ers, and they don't.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"ocp" > writes:

> Dear Lou- Nice to make your aquantance. I love your traslator tool,
> thank you.

You're very welcome.

> I find that in the green variety, only young Pu-erh's will wash many
> times. Even some Lui An teas which are well aged will only steep a
> few times. I think it has a lot to do with the leaf base itself,
> don't you?

Yes, I do, and Liu An heicha is a very different leaf from Pu'er.

> [...]
> Of course, a real wild Pu-erh will give many steeps (I steeped a
> Simplified CHaracter Pu-erh and it steeped more than 20 times!) I
> could not believe it myself, but I did use 10+ grams, and because
> the cake is so compressed it took more than 10 times for the leaves
> to fall apart. WHen they did they showed great whole leaf formation
> with great deep brown color.

If the leaves are deep brown, isn't it aged then?

> Rolled oolongs also give many steeps, but not to the degree of a real
> good Pu-erh.

I find a good Phoenix oolong will.

> I find that each tea needs it's own particular attention to time and
> ammount of leaf, there is no real rule from tea to tea. To me, that
> is the art of tea, finding the perfect balance of tea, water and
> steep time.

Agreed. But I don't think you are saying generalizations are
completely useless.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew -

I think that the fact that black teas are broken in the process for the
tealeaf juice to come out an have contact with oxygen is the answer. That
breaking:

1. Creates easy passages into the inside capillary system of the leaf this
tremendously increasing the permeability of such.
2. Breaks up the internal cell walls which makes the leaf almost an open
system for a liquid solute.
3. Because the leaf juice is partially squeezed out and almost completely
oxidized, the oxides are easier soluble in hot water and little remain
dissolved after the first brew.

Also there is a psychological twist here - with black teas we are used to a
very strong, dark and astringent taste of the first brew. Second and third
brews are quite weak and literally pale in comparison with the first one,
while consequent brews of green teas are, although even weaker, are not as
contrasty with the first one and thus do not feel "dead".

Sasha.



"Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
news
> "Indra" > writes:
>>
>> "Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
>> "
>> > [...why are oolongs and pu'ers so steepy?...]
>>
>> because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
>> technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
>> slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.
>
> By that logic, black/red teas should do better than oolongs and
> Pu'ers, and they don't.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Dear Lew-My Simplified Character cake was from the 70's, so I did have
a brown natural fermented color. I also agree some oolongs really do
stand up to a few steeps and they are not rolled, so maybe fermentation
does lock in the theanine and other flavors of the tea. I am drinking
some Liu An from the 80's and it also holds it's flavor, but not more
than three or four times, I find. Thanks again for your input.


Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Lew -
>
> I think that the fact that black teas are broken in the process for the
> tealeaf juice to come out an have contact with oxygen is the answer. That
> breaking:
>
> 1. Creates easy passages into the inside capillary system of the leaf this
> tremendously increasing the permeability of such.
> 2. Breaks up the internal cell walls which makes the leaf almost an open
> system for a liquid solute.
> 3. Because the leaf juice is partially squeezed out and almost completely
> oxidized, the oxides are easier soluble in hot water and little remain
> dissolved after the first brew.
>
> Also there is a psychological twist here - with black teas we are used to a
> very strong, dark and astringent taste of the first brew. Second and third
> brews are quite weak and literally pale in comparison with the first one,
> while consequent brews of green teas are, although even weaker, are not as
> contrasty with the first one and thus do not feel "dead".
>
> Sasha.
>
>
>
> "Lewis Perin" > wrote in message
> news
> > "Indra" > writes:
> >>
> >> "Lewis Perin дµÀ£º
> >> "
> >> > [...why are oolongs and pu'ers so steepy?...]
> >>
> >> because they have experienced different manufacture. the decisive
> >> technical tache is ferment. green teas, since all of them are
> >> slightly fermented, therefore can't endure a long soakage.
> >
> > By that logic, black/red teas should do better than oolongs and
> > Pu'ers, and they don't.
> >
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
> > http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Alex Chaihorsky" > writes:

> Lew -
>
> I think that the fact that black teas are broken in the process for the
> tealeaf juice to come out an have contact with oxygen is the answer. That
> breaking:
>
> 1. Creates easy passages into the inside capillary system of the leaf this
> tremendously increasing the permeability of such.
> 2. Breaks up the internal cell walls which makes the leaf almost an open
> system for a liquid solute.
> 3. Because the leaf juice is partially squeezed out and almost completely
> oxidized, the oxides are easier soluble in hot water and little remain
> dissolved after the first brew.

This makes sense to me.

> Also there is a psychological twist here - with black teas we are used to a
> very strong, dark and astringent taste of the first brew. Second and third
> brews are quite weak and literally pale in comparison with the first one,
> while consequent brews of green teas are, although even weaker, are not as
> contrasty with the first one and thus do not feel "dead".

I find this less persuasive. I think most of us who are accustomed to
lots of steeps are willing - even eager - to accept different
qualities from successive steeps. And I've never tried a black/red
tea worth more than six steeps, and that only for some Darjeelings,
which are arguably more like oolongs anyway.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Alex Chaihorsky" > writes:

> I think that the fact that black teas are broken in the process for the
> tealeaf juice to come out an have contact with oxygen is the answer. That
> breaking:
>
> 1. Creates easy passages into the inside capillary system of the leaf this
> tremendously increasing the permeability of such.
> 2. Breaks up the internal cell walls which makes the leaf almost an open
> system for a liquid solute.
> 3. Because the leaf juice is partially squeezed out and almost completely
> oxidized, the oxides are easier soluble in hot water and little remain
> dissolved after the first brew.

On second thought, I'm less persuaded by this argument. For one
thing, oolongs too are partially broken during manufacture. For
another, Phoenixes, which yield lots of steeps, are typically close to
black, while greener oolongs are less steepy.

(I'm assuming that when you say "broken" you aren't referring to
chopping the leaves, which is typically done in India but not China;
rather, I think, you mean the partial crushing to release the juice
so it can mix with the oxidase enzymes on the surface of the leaves.)

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Sasha wrote:
> 1. Creates easy passages into the inside capillary system of the leaf this
> tremendously increasing the permeability of such.
> 2. Breaks up the internal cell walls which makes the leaf almost an open
> system for a liquid solute.
> 3. Because the leaf juice is partially squeezed out and almost completely
> oxidized, the oxides are easier soluble in hot water and little remain
> dissolved after the first brew.

Hi,
let me add #4 for a middle-of-the-road Darjeeling.
4. The average thickness of a Darjeeling leave is way thinner compared
to say an Assam leave, not to mention those you can find in the
Southwest of China or on the hills of Taiwan.

Karsten [Ossi blend / cream / rock sugar]