Sushi (alt.food.sushi) For talking sushi. (Sashimi, wasabi, miso soup, and other elements of the sushi experience are valid topics.) Sushi is a broad topic; discussions range from preparation to methods of eating to favorite kinds to good restaurants.

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Hello All!

I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd look it up on
Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping sauce (soy sauce
with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger root or gari, and ponzu)"
That doesn't fit with my tastes, ponzu might work for some things as
might tamari, which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari
in the dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.

--


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:58:35 -0500, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

> Hello All!
>
> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd look it up on
> Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping sauce (soy sauce
> with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger root or gari, and ponzu)"
> That doesn't fit with my tastes, ponzu might work for some things as
> might tamari, which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari
> in the dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.



I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I understand it,
that definition of the dipping sauce for sashimi is completely wrong.
Such a sauce may perhaps be used occasionally, but it's not the
standard.


--
Ken Blake
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Ken Blake wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:58:35 -0500, "James Silverton"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Hello All!
>>
>>I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd look it up on
>>Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping sauce (soy sauce
>>with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger root or gari, and ponzu)"
>>That doesn't fit with my tastes, ponzu might work for some things as
>>might tamari, which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari
>>in the dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.

>
> I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I understand it,
> that definition of the dipping sauce for sashimi is completely wrong.
> Such a sauce may perhaps be used occasionally, but it's not the
> standard.


I was once served Aji with a garlic ponzu sauce drizzled over the top.
At first I thought it was an odd thing to do, but it was really good.

--
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Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:40:39 -0700:

>> Hello All!
>>
>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger
>> root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my tastes,
>> ponzu might work for some things as might tamari, which is
>> not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
>> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.


> I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I
> understand it, that definition of the dipping sauce for
> sashimi is completely wrong. Such a sauce may perhaps be used
> occasionally, but it's not the standard.


The quite good sushi place where I bought my lunch supplies a small cup
of soy sauce and quite a lot of wasabi and gari but not mixed. I don't
find myself using very much wasabi but I'll admit that I tend to finish
off the gari *after* the meal!

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:50:42 -0500, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

> Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:40:39 -0700:
>
> >> Hello All!
> >>
> >> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
> >> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
> >> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger
> >> root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my tastes,
> >> ponzu might work for some things as might tamari, which is
> >> not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
> >> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.

>
> > I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I
> > understand it, that definition of the dipping sauce for
> > sashimi is completely wrong. Such a sauce may perhaps be used
> > occasionally, but it's not the standard.

>
> The quite good sushi place where I bought my lunch supplies a small cup
> of soy sauce and quite a lot of wasabi and gari but not mixed. I don't
> find myself using very much wasabi but I'll admit that I tend to finish
> off the gari *after* the meal!




I'm accustomed to getting a small *empty* container for soy sauce
along with a small pitcher of soy sauce to pour in as much as you
want. The plate of sashimi or sushi usually has a bunch of fake wasabi
paste, so you can add as much of it as you want to the soy sauce. I
use a fair amount in the soy sauce with sashimi, but little to nothing
if it's a good itamae who has already added the optimum amount to each
piece of nigiri.

I eat the gari between different types of fish to cleanse the palate
and get it ready for the next type.


--
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Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:48:23 -0700:

>> Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:40:39 -0700:
>>
> >>> Hello All!
> >>>
> >>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
> >>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
> >>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced
> >>> ginger root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my
> >>> tastes, ponzu might work for some things as might tamari,
> >>> which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari
> >>> in the dipping sauce does not seen to show much
> >>> understanding.

>>
> >> I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I
> >> understand it, that definition of the dipping sauce for
> >> sashimi is completely wrong. Such a sauce may perhaps be
> >> used occasionally, but it's not the standard.

>>
>> The quite good sushi place where I bought my lunch supplies a
>> small cup of soy sauce and quite a lot of wasabi and gari but
>> not mixed. I don't find myself using very much wasabi but
>> I'll admit that I tend to finish off the gari *after* the
>> meal!


> I'm accustomed to getting a small *empty* container for soy
> sauce along with a small pitcher of soy sauce to pour in as
> much as you want. The plate of sashimi or sushi usually has a
> bunch of fake wasabi paste, so you can add as much of it as
> you want to the soy sauce. I use a fair amount in the soy
> sauce with sashimi, but little to nothing if it's a good
> itamae who has already added the optimum amount to each piece
> of nigiri.


> I eat the gari between different types of fish to cleanse the
> palate and get it ready for the next type.


All very true since it does depend on taste. Nigiri differs from sashimi
in that for nigiri, the chef will have used some wasabi whereas for
sashimi it's up to you. I wish people would stop calling the green
horseradish paste "fake". It's almost always the only thing you can get,
a perfectly decent accompaniment and also what the itamae uses for
nigiri. There's only one place in the Bethesda/Rockvlle area where real
wasabi is supposed to be available at an exorbitant price and it loses
its taste very quickly.

I don't mix the (let's call it) green horseradish with soy sauce, I will
dip the sashimi in soy sauce, place it on the rice and pick it up again
with as much "wasabi" as I judge necessary, which depends on the fish. I
like more on salmon than on tuna. I sometimes also like to eat the fish
*with* some of the usually excessive amount of daikon, and if it is
tuna, shiro if the real thing is supplied.
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:23:16 -0500, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

> Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:48:23 -0700:
>
> >> Ken wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:40:39 -0700:
> >>
> > >>> Hello All!
> > >>>
> > >>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
> > >>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
> > >>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced
> > >>> ginger root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my
> > >>> tastes, ponzu might work for some things as might tamari,
> > >>> which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari
> > >>> in the dipping sauce does not seen to show much
> > >>> understanding.
> >>
> > >> I'm with your taste entirely this time. Moreover, as I
> > >> understand it, that definition of the dipping sauce for
> > >> sashimi is completely wrong. Such a sauce may perhaps be
> > >> used occasionally, but it's not the standard.
> >>
> >> The quite good sushi place where I bought my lunch supplies a
> >> small cup of soy sauce and quite a lot of wasabi and gari but
> >> not mixed. I don't find myself using very much wasabi but
> >> I'll admit that I tend to finish off the gari *after* the
> >> meal!

>
> > I'm accustomed to getting a small *empty* container for soy
> > sauce along with a small pitcher of soy sauce to pour in as
> > much as you want. The plate of sashimi or sushi usually has a
> > bunch of fake wasabi paste, so you can add as much of it as
> > you want to the soy sauce. I use a fair amount in the soy
> > sauce with sashimi, but little to nothing if it's a good
> > itamae who has already added the optimum amount to each piece
> > of nigiri.

>
> > I eat the gari between different types of fish to cleanse the
> > palate and get it ready for the next type.

>
> All very true since it does depend on taste. Nigiri differs from sashimi
> in that for nigiri, the chef will have used some wasabi whereas for
> sashimi it's up to you. I wish people would stop calling the green
> horseradish paste "fake". It's almost always the only thing you can get,



Although it is usually the only thing you can get, it *is* fake. I've
never had real wasabi myself, but I'd like to try it some time.


> a perfectly decent accompaniment



I don't object to it, but I haven't had the real thing to compare with
it. And how decent an accompaniment is has nothing to do with whether
it's real or fake.


> and also what the itamae uses for
> nigiri. There's only one place in the Bethesda/Rockvlle area where real
> wasabi is supposed to be available at an exorbitant price and it loses
> its taste very quickly.



I wouldn't want to pay the exorbitant price, but I would try it at
least once, if I ever got the opportunity,


> I don't mix the (let's call it) green horseradish with soy sauce, I will
> dip the sashimi in soy sauce, place it on the rice and pick it up again
> with as much "wasabi" as I judge necessary, which depends on the fish.



I'm not trying to tell you what to do--it's up to you--but as I
understand it, that's a very untraditional way to do it.


> I
> like more on salmon than on tuna. I sometimes also like to eat the fish
> *with* some of the usually excessive amount of daikon, and if it is
> tuna, shiro if the real thing is supplied.



With sashimi, I also like a lot of daikon with the fish, because the
daikon picks up a lot of the soy sauce-wasabi combination, which I
like.

--
Ken Blake
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Ken Blake wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:23:16 -0500, "James Silverton"
> > wrote:
>
>>All very true since it does depend on taste. Nigiri differs from sashimi
>>in that for nigiri, the chef will have used some wasabi whereas for
>>sashimi it's up to you. I wish people would stop calling the green
>>horseradish paste "fake". It's almost always the only thing you can get,

>
> Although it is usually the only thing you can get, it *is* fake. I've
> never had real wasabi myself, but I'd like to try it some time.


I've had it a few times, its a bit different. Its not as pungent and nasal
burning as horseradish, and more grainy or chunky since its coarse grated
fresh.

I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just different.

--
Dan
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Dan wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:45:41 -0500:

>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:23:16 -0500, "James Silverton"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> All very true since it does depend on taste. Nigiri differs from
>>> sashimi in that for nigiri, the chef will have used
>>> some wasabi whereas for sashimi it's up to you. I wish
>>> people would stop calling the green horseradish paste
>>> "fake". It's almost always the only thing you can get,

>>
>> Although it is usually the only thing you can get, it *is*
>> fake. I've never had real wasabi myself, but I'd like to try it some
>> time.


> I've had it a few times, its a bit different. Its not as
> pungent and nasal burning as horseradish, and more grainy or
> chunky since its coarse grated fresh.


> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
> different.


The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the associated
psychological baggage like the perceived (probably wrongly) superiority
of someone who knows what "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is
there a Japanese word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know,
for the green hot paste that is almost always served?

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:

>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
>> different.


> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
> associated psychological baggage like the perceived (probably wrongly)
> superiority of someone who knows what "real wasabi"
> tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese word, whose real meaning
> practically no-one will know, for the green hot paste that is almost
> always served?



Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a possibility where
someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real wasabi" and that could be
acceptable with "wasabi" kept for green-colored horseradish, which is
obviously a perfectly acceptable condiment for most people.
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not



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On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:45:50 -0500, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
>
> >> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
> >> different.

>
> > The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
> > associated psychological baggage like the perceived (probably wrongly)
> > superiority of someone who knows what "real wasabi"
> > tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese word, whose real meaning
> > practically no-one will know, for the green hot paste that is almost
> > always served?

>
>
> Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a possibility where
> someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real wasabi" and that could be
> acceptable with "wasabi" kept for green-colored horseradish, which is
> obviously a perfectly acceptable condiment for most people.




That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be called a
"real mink coat," and that a coat made out of acrylic fake fur should
be called a "mink coat."

Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I completely
disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and not using the word
(or a similar one like "imitation") to describe something fake can do
nothing good, just suggest that what is actually fake is real.

--
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Ken wrote on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700:

>> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
>>
> >>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
> >>> different.

>>
> >> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
> >> associated psychological baggage like the perceived
> >> (probably wrongly) superiority of someone who knows what
> >> "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese
> >> word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know, for
> >> the green hot paste that is almost always served?

>>
>> Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a
>> possibility where someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real
>> wasabi" and that could be acceptable with "wasabi" kept for
>> green-colored horseradish, which is obviously a perfectly
>> acceptable condiment for most people.


> That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be
> called a "real mink coat," and that a coat made out of acrylic
> fake fur should be called a "mink coat."


> Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I
> completely disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and
> not using the word (or a similar one like "imitation") to
> describe something fake can do nothing good, just suggest that
> what is actually fake is real.


Leaving aside my disapproval of real mink, the trouble with the English
language is that it is democratic and popular usage (thank heaven)
determines what is *right*. Real wasabi is very expensive to grow and
buy and needs to be ritually grated with a shark hide just before it
used. People like green horseradish, itamaes use it and you are never
going to get hon wasabi (if that term is correct) in popular restaurants
in the US.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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James Silverton wrote:

> Ken wrote on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700:
>
>>> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
>>>
>> >>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
>> >>> different.

>>
>>>
>> >> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
>> >> associated psychological baggage like the perceived
>> >> (probably wrongly) superiority of someone who knows what
>> >> "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese
>> >> word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know, for
>> >> the green hot paste that is almost always served?

>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a
>>> possibility where someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real
>>> wasabi" and that could be acceptable with "wasabi" kept for
>>> green-colored horseradish, which is obviously a perfectly
>>> acceptable condiment for most people.

>
>
>> That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be
>> called a "real mink coat," and that a coat made out of acrylic
>> fake fur should be called a "mink coat."

>
>
>> Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I
>> completely disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and
>> not using the word (or a similar one like "imitation") to
>> describe something fake can do nothing good, just suggest that
>> what is actually fake is real.

>
>
> Leaving aside my disapproval of real mink, the trouble with the English
> language is that it is democratic and popular usage (thank heaven)
> determines what is *right*. Real wasabi is very expensive to grow and
> buy and needs to be ritually grated with a shark hide just before it
> used. People like green horseradish, itamaes use it and you are never
> going to get hon wasabi (if that term is correct) in popular restaurants
> in the US.


But that doesn't make horseradish wasabi real..

I understand that for all intents and purposes people refer to the horseradish
version as wasabi, since for most people here will probably not have the real
thing anytime soon. And I'm fine with that, otherwise we'll confuse people or
get into arguments.

--
Dan
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Dan Logcher > wrote:
> James Silverton wrote:
> > Ken wrote on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700:
> >>> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
> >>>
> >> >>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
> >> >>> different.


> >> >> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
> >> >> associated psychological baggage like the perceived
> >> >> (probably wrongly) superiority of someone who knows what
> >> >> "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese
> >> >> word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know, for
> >> >> the green hot paste that is almost always served?


> >>> Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a
> >>> possibility where someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real
> >>> wasabi" and that could be acceptable with "wasabi" kept for
> >>> green-colored horseradish, which is obviously a perfectly
> >>> acceptable condiment for most people.


> >> That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be
> >> called a "real mink coat," and that a coat made out of acrylic
> >> fake fur should be called a "mink coat."


> >> Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I
> >> completely disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and
> >> not using the word (or a similar one like "imitation") to
> >> describe something fake can do nothing good, just suggest that
> >> what is actually fake is real.


> > Leaving aside my disapproval of real mink, the trouble with the English
> > language is that it is democratic and popular usage (thank heaven)
> > determines what is *right*. Real wasabi is very expensive to grow and
> > buy and needs to be ritually grated with a shark hide just before it
> > used. People like green horseradish, itamaes use it and you are never
> > going to get hon wasabi (if that term is correct) in popular
> > restaurants in the US.

>
> But that doesn't make horseradish wasabi real..
>
> I understand that for all intents and purposes people refer to the
> horseradish version as wasabi, since for most people here will probably
> not have the real thing anytime soon. And I'm fine with that, otherwise
> we'll confuse people or get into arguments.


http://www.freshwasabi.com/

http://www.realwasabi.com/

A friend sent me a plant from the former. It was coming along beautifully.
Then one morning, I went out and discovered that some critter had dug it up
and eaten all the roots and leaves. <sigh>

--
Nick, KI6VAV. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their
families: https://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/ Thank a Veteran!
Support Our Troops: http://anymarine.com/ You are not forgotten.
Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~ USMC 1365061
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Nick Cramer wrote:
> Dan Logcher > wrote:
>
>>James Silverton wrote:
>>
>>>Ken wrote on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700:
>>>
>>>>> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
>>>>>>>different.

>
>
>>>>>>The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
>>>>>>associated psychological baggage like the perceived
>>>>>>(probably wrongly) superiority of someone who knows what
>>>>>>"real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is there a Japanese
>>>>>>word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know, for
>>>>>>the green hot paste that is almost always served?

>
>
>>>>>Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a
>>>>>possibility where someone said that "hon wasabi" means "real
>>>>>wasabi" and that could be acceptable with "wasabi" kept for
>>>>>green-colored horseradish, which is obviously a perfectly
>>>>>acceptable condiment for most people.

>
>
>>>>That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be
>>>>called a "real mink coat," and that a coat made out of acrylic
>>>>fake fur should be called a "mink coat."

>
>
>>>>Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I
>>>>completely disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and
>>>>not using the word (or a similar one like "imitation") to
>>>>describe something fake can do nothing good, just suggest that
>>>>what is actually fake is real.

>
>
>>>Leaving aside my disapproval of real mink, the trouble with the English
>>>language is that it is democratic and popular usage (thank heaven)
>>>determines what is *right*. Real wasabi is very expensive to grow and
>>>buy and needs to be ritually grated with a shark hide just before it
>>>used. People like green horseradish, itamaes use it and you are never
>>>going to get hon wasabi (if that term is correct) in popular
>>>restaurants in the US.

>>
>>But that doesn't make horseradish wasabi real..
>>
>>I understand that for all intents and purposes people refer to the
>>horseradish version as wasabi, since for most people here will probably
>>not have the real thing anytime soon. And I'm fine with that, otherwise
>>we'll confuse people or get into arguments.

>
>
> http://www.freshwasabi.com/
>
> http://www.realwasabi.com/
>
> A friend sent me a plant from the former. It was coming along beautifully.
> Then one morning, I went out and discovered that some critter had dug it up
> and eaten all the roots and leaves. <sigh>


Aw that sucks! I guess that's what guns and chicken wire were invented for..

--
Dan


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Dan Logcher > wrote:
> Nick Cramer wrote:
> > [ . . . ]
> > http://www.freshwasabi.com/
> >
> > http://www.realwasabi.com/
> >
> > A friend sent me a plant from the former. It was coming along
> > beautifully. Then one morning, I went out and discovered that some
> > critter had dug it up and eaten all the roots and leaves. <sigh>

>
> Aw that sucks! I guess that's what guns and chicken wire were invented
> for..


http://www.tinypic.info/files/389chvxlq22ysltihz4s.jpg

Unfortunately, I was asleep and had no chicken wire. ;-/

--
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Zaghadka wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 05:49:34 GMT:

>> Ken wrote on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:14:15 -0700:
>>
>>>> James wrote to Dan Lecher on Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:39:01 -0500:
>>>>
>> >>>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
>> >>>> different.
>>>>
>> >>> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the
>> >>> associated psychological baggage like the perceived
>> >>> (probably wrongly) superiority of someone who knows what
>> >>> "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is there a
>> >>> Japanese word, whose real meaning practically no-one will
>> >>> know, for the green hot paste that is almost always
>> >>> served?
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, adding to my own post, I just came across a
>>>> possibility where someone said that "hon wasabi" means
>>>> "real wasabi" and that could be acceptable with "wasabi"
>>>> kept for green-colored horseradish, which is obviously a
>>>> perfectly acceptable condiment for most people.

>>
>>> That kind of thinking suggests that a mink coat should be
>>> called a "real mink coat," and that a coat made out of
>>> acrylic fake fur should be called a "mink coat."

>>
>>> Despite the fake wasabi being perfectly acceptable to me, I
>>> completely disagree with your suggestion. Fake is fake, and
>>> not using the word (or a similar one like "imitation") to
>>> describe something fake can do nothing good, just suggest
>>> that what is actually fake is real.

>>
>> Leaving aside my disapproval of real mink, the trouble with
>> the English language is that it is democratic and popular
>> usage (thank heaven) determines what is *right*.


> If I may add 2 cents the There is a difference between what is
> right, and what is correct. I prefer to be "correct."


> That is, I seek to adjust my attitude, as what is "right" is
> often as intangible and ephemeral as vernacular language.


> IOW, "tomorrow it's wrong, and everything old is new again."
> You *can* continue to correct for that problem, as long as you
> draw breath.


>> Real wasabi is very expensive to grow and
>> buy and needs to be ritually grated with a shark hide just
>> before it used. People like green horseradish, itamaes use it
>> and you are never going to get hon wasabi (if that term is
>> correct) in popular restaurants in the US.


> That is correct. Just as it would be incorrect to call the
> paste "wasabi" if that is at odds with what you *know*. When I
> ask my local chef for more "wasabi," I _know_ I'm not going to
> get actual "wasabi." This is the nature of the problem.


> Sorry to sound like a fortune cookie. <G>


I think this argument will not come to any definite conclusion. However,
I wonder if people would actually ask a waiter or chef for "fake
wasabi"?,

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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I think this argument will not come to any definite conclusion.
However,
> I wonder if people would actually ask a waiter or chef for "fake
> wasabi"?,
>
> --
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
> Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



James, etal,

Legend has it that when the Japanese were first introduced to
horseradish (Armoracia rusticana), they referred to it as Seiyo Wasabi
because it had somewhat similar taste (but not appearance) to their
native wasabi (Wasabia japonica). Somewhere along the way the preface
was conveniently dropped form labels for export and the lines were
blurred. There are, however, significant and noteworthy differences
betweet these two Brassica cousins.

While there is little likelihood the world will catch on and start
differentiating between real and faux wasabi enmasse, anymore than we
will see a groundswell of effort to differentiate "real" vanilla or
"real" crabmeat, discerning chefs, foodies and consumers who
appreciate the not so subtle nuances will seek out the real deal.

Asking for Hon Wasabi may get you little more than a raised eyebrow,
but if you are lucky enough to be at one of the many restaurants that
do carry authentic fresh wasabi, you are in for a true treat. The
nuanced, clean flavor of real wasabi has never been well imitated.
Most substitutes are mere shadows of autenticity.

P.S. We grow authenitc wasabi on our farm in western NC, send it out
every week to fine restaurants and chefs and will begin offering
rooted plantlets this spring.


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"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> Hello All!
>
> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd look it up on
> Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping sauce (soy sauce with
> wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger root or gari, and ponzu)" That
> doesn't fit with my tastes, ponzu might work for some things as might
> tamari, which is not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.
>


The above two sauces for dipping sashimi are the most common.
Shoyu (soy sauce) and wasabi is obviously THE most common.
Ponzu, usually with condiments including GRATED GINGER is another.
I think the above reference to gari is a clear mistake as it's never used
together with the shoyu.
Certain dishes always call for Ponzu rather than wasabi-jouyu. (soy sauce &
wasabi),
such as all ultra-thin sliced sashimi called usu-zukuri. The most well known
of these
would be Hirame and Suzuki. Fugu is also served this way.
Katsuo no Tataki is also always served with ponzu while the added condiments
vary
according to region.

While Wasabi-jouyu (soy sauce & wasabi) is the most common dip, there are in
fact
perhaps a dozen or more other soy sauce & somethinng mixtures which one
normally
doesn't see, such as shouga-jouyu (soy sauice & ginger), negi-jouyu (soy
sauce & scallions), etc.
Depending on the region in Japan the local people may use a different
dipping sauce.
In Kagoshima, the southernost end of Kyushu, sashimi is usually eaten dipped
in
Karashi-jouyu (soy sauce & hot mustard) rather than wasabi.
In Okinawa they use a miso sauce rather than soy sauce.

Musashi




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Musashi wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:43:49 -0500:


> "James Silverton" > wrote in
> message ...
>> Hello All!
>>
>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger
>> root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my tastes,
>> ponzu might work for some things as might tamari, which is
>> not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
>> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.
>>

> The above two sauces for dipping sashimi are the most common.
> Shoyu (soy sauce) and wasabi is obviously THE most common.
> Ponzu, usually with condiments including GRATED GINGER is
> another. I think the above reference to gari is a clear
> mistake as it's never used together with the shoyu.
> Certain dishes always call for Ponzu rather than wasabi-jouyu.
> (soy sauce & wasabi),
> such as all ultra-thin sliced sashimi called usu-zukuri. The
> most well known of these
> would be Hirame and Suzuki. Fugu is also served this way.
> Katsuo no Tataki is also always served with ponzu while the
> added condiments vary
> according to region.


> While Wasabi-jouyu (soy sauce & wasabi) is the most common
> dip, there are in fact
> perhaps a dozen or more other soy sauce & somethinng mixtures which
> one normally
> doesn't see, such as shouga-jouyu (soy sauice & ginger),
> negi-jouyu (soy sauce & scallions), etc.
> Depending on the region in Japan the local people may use a
> different dipping sauce.
> In Kagoshima, the southernost end of Kyushu, sashimi is
> usually eaten dipped in
> Karashi-jouyu (soy sauce & hot mustard) rather than wasabi.
> In Okinawa they use a miso sauce rather than soy sauce.


Thanks, very interesting indeed! I can't see any objection to grated
*fresh* ginger if you want to prepare a dipping sauce. It's certainly
used with soy sauce and other ingredients in Chinese stir-fry and fried
rice dishes. However, to me, a universal dipping sauce for all sorts of
fish in a mixed sashimi platter is not particularly attractive. There
are certain types of sashimi, like octopus, where a slice of lemon
served with it is appropriate, AFAIAC. I think I mentioned that tuna
with real shiso, dipped in shoyu is pleasant.

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not



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wasabi wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:42:20 -0800 (PST):

> I think this argument will not come to any definite
> conclusion. However,
>> I wonder if people would actually ask a waiter or chef for
>> "fake wasabi"?,


> Asking for Hon Wasabi may get you little more than a raised
> eyebrow, but if you are lucky enough to be at one of the many
> restaurants that do carry authentic fresh wasabi, you are in
> for a true treat. The nuanced, clean flavor of real wasabi
> has never been well imitated. Most substitutes are mere
> shadows of autenticity.


I admitted that "hon wasabi" was something I read and I know no
Japanese. What would be the polite way to ask if a restaurant can
provide real wasabi? It would also be better to see it on a menu so that
I could know the price but I never have :-(

--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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Zag - I agree that asking for seiyo wasabi or fake wasabi would likely
come off as cheeky or even rude. I don't, however, think it an
affront to ask for the real deal, but have observed some curious
reactions or embarrsment amongst sushi chefs at establishments that
either don't know or acknowledge the difference or whose owners decide
that they don't want to support such. This scenario is not exclusive
to wasabi by the way... I've experienced frequent substitution of
masago for tobiko and even had one chef argue they were the
same...then there is "kani" which is almost always "faux".

JS - I believe the polite way would be to quietly ask if real wasabi
or hon wasabi is available. You may still elicit a raised eyebrow,
but that may be because they are surprised (but not offended) that you
know the difference. While still not available at most restaurants,
even some of the best, the word is spreading, largely due to consumer
awareness and more frequent requests. Real wasabi is also
increasingly showing up on more menus, typically with an upcharge of
$3 to $5 per serving, however, quite a few chefs still keep it under
wraps in the fridge for select presentations, to delights special
customers or to provide for those that request it. If you don't ask,
you might never know...on the other hand if you do, you might be
pleasantly surprised.

Clearly costs are a driving force in these scenarios, but IMHO
consumers should not have to be sommeliers or gourmands to justify
their pursuit of authenticity.
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James Silverton wrote:
> Dan wrote on Sat, 21 Feb 2009 23:45:41 -0500:
>
>>> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:23:16 -0500, "James Silverton"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> All very true since it does depend on taste. Nigiri differs from
>>>> sashimi in that for nigiri, the chef will have used
>>>> some wasabi whereas for sashimi it's up to you. I wish
>>>> people would stop calling the green horseradish paste
>>>> "fake". It's almost always the only thing you can get,
>>>
>>> Although it is usually the only thing you can get, it *is*
>>> fake. I've never had real wasabi myself, but I'd like to try it some
>>> time.

>
>> I've had it a few times, its a bit different. Its not as
>> pungent and nasal burning as horseradish, and more grainy or
>> chunky since its coarse grated fresh.

>
>> I don't think I prefer real of "fake", they are just
>> different.

>
> The trouble about "real" and "fake" for wasabi is the associated
> psychological baggage like the perceived (probably wrongly) superiority
> of someone who knows what "real wasabi" tastes like :-) I wonder is
> there a Japanese word, whose real meaning practically no-one will know,
> for the green hot paste that is almost always served?
>

The "fake" wasabi is called seiyÅ wasabi (€œwestern wasabi€). And the
real thing is infinitely better, in my opinion. But then again I am
spoiled as I live in CT and spend most of my time in NYC where it is
available in most places I eat sushi. It really is a different beast to
me, though. I also buy the root at a local Japanese grocer for when I
make sushi at home. It is surprisingly not expensive when you do that
(not cheap, but reasonably expensive for an occasional evening).

--
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wasabi wrote:
> Zag - I agree that asking for seiyo wasabi or fake wasabi would likely
> come off as cheeky or even rude. I don't, however, think it an
> affront to ask for the real deal, but have observed some curious
> reactions or embarrsment amongst sushi chefs at establishments that
> either don't know or acknowledge the difference or whose owners decide
> that they don't want to support such. This scenario is not exclusive
> to wasabi by the way... I've experienced frequent substitution of
> masago for tobiko and even had one chef argue they were the
> same...then there is "kani" which is almost always "faux".
>
> JS - I believe the polite way would be to quietly ask if real wasabi
> or hon wasabi is available. You may still elicit a raised eyebrow,
> but that may be because they are surprised (but not offended) that you
> know the difference. While still not available at most restaurants,
> even some of the best, the word is spreading, largely due to consumer
> awareness and more frequent requests. Real wasabi is also
> increasingly showing up on more menus, typically with an upcharge of
> $3 to $5 per serving, however, quite a few chefs still keep it under
> wraps in the fridge for select presentations, to delights special
> customers or to provide for those that request it. If you don't ask,
> you might never know...on the other hand if you do, you might be
> pleasantly surprised.
>
> Clearly costs are a driving force in these scenarios, but IMHO
> consumers should not have to be sommeliers or gourmands to justify
> their pursuit of authenticity.


I have what consider an acceptable solution. I usually don't ask for
"real wasabi," I ask if they have "fresh wasabi" and they know what I
mean. Sometimes I have asked for "Real wasabi" and I've never had any
raised eyebrows, but then again, I don't know what they are thinking

I may be a snob, but I definitely prefer the real thing to American
horseradish coloured green. It has an entirely different taste and while
I don't make a big deal of it when I can't get the real thing, if it is
available I always ask for it. And most places don't charge me for it,
though some will add $5 or $10 to the meal for it, but it's worth it for me.



--
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Warren wrote on Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:47:26 -0500:

>
> I may be a snob, but I definitely prefer the real thing to
> American horseradish coloured green.


What's American about it? I have a tube of Japanese-made green wasabi
paste that I bought in a Chinese supermarket that has a large section
for Japanese foods.

> It has an entirely different taste and while I don't make a big deal
> of it when I can't get the real thing, if it is available I always ask
> for it. And most places don't charge me for it, though some will
> add $5 or $10 to the meal for it, but it's worth it for me.




--

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Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not



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James Silverton wrote:
> Warren wrote on Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:47:26 -0500:
>
>>
>> I may be a snob, but I definitely prefer the real thing to
>> American horseradish coloured green.

>
> What's American about it? I have a tube of Japanese-made green wasabi
> paste that I bought in a Chinese supermarket that has a large section
> for Japanese foods.

Right, and it's usually American horseradish that they use.


>
>> It has an entirely different taste and while I don't make a big deal
>> of it when I can't get the real thing, if it is available I always ask
>> for it. And most places don't charge me for it, though some will
>> add $5 or $10 to the meal for it, but it's worth it for me.

>
>
>



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"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> Musashi wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:43:49 -0500:
>
>
>> "James Silverton" > wrote in
>> message ...
>>> Hello All!
>>>
>>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
>>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
>>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger
>>> root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my tastes,
>>> ponzu might work for some things as might tamari, which is
>>> not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
>>> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.
>>>

>> The above two sauces for dipping sashimi are the most common.
>> Shoyu (soy sauce) and wasabi is obviously THE most common.
>> Ponzu, usually with condiments including GRATED GINGER is
>> another. I think the above reference to gari is a clear
>> mistake as it's never used together with the shoyu.
>> Certain dishes always call for Ponzu rather than wasabi-jouyu.
>> (soy sauce & wasabi),
>> such as all ultra-thin sliced sashimi called usu-zukuri. The
>> most well known of these
>> would be Hirame and Suzuki. Fugu is also served this way.
>> Katsuo no Tataki is also always served with ponzu while the
>> added condiments vary
>> according to region.

>
>> While Wasabi-jouyu (soy sauce & wasabi) is the most common
>> dip, there are in fact
>> perhaps a dozen or more other soy sauce & somethinng mixtures which one
>> normally
>> doesn't see, such as shouga-jouyu (soy sauice & ginger),
>> negi-jouyu (soy sauce & scallions), etc.
>> Depending on the region in Japan the local people may use a
>> different dipping sauce.
>> In Kagoshima, the southernost end of Kyushu, sashimi is
>> usually eaten dipped in
>> Karashi-jouyu (soy sauce & hot mustard) rather than wasabi.
>> In Okinawa they use a miso sauce rather than soy sauce.

>
> Thanks, very interesting indeed! I can't see any objection to grated
> *fresh* ginger if you want to prepare a dipping sauce. It's certainly used
> with soy sauce and other ingredients in Chinese stir-fry and fried rice
> dishes. However, to me, a universal dipping sauce for all sorts of fish in
> a mixed sashimi platter is not particularly attractive. There are certain
> types of sashimi, like octopus, where a slice of lemon served with it is
> appropriate, AFAIAC. I think I mentioned that tuna with real shiso, dipped
> in shoyu is pleasant.



Well I just corrected the Wikipedia entry on Sashimi concerning that
erroneous
reference to gari. I did most of the history portion of the sushi entry and
it never
occurred to me to look at the sashimi page.
Musashi



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Mustache wrote on Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:40:47 -0500:


>Well I just corrected the Wikipedia entry on Sashimi concerning that
>erroneous reference to gari. I did most of the history portion of the
>sushi
> entry and it never occurred to me to look at the sashimi page.




Thanks for the notification. I think the sashimi entry is much improved
and overall the article is most informative. I don't mean to sound
condescending; I'd be the first to admit you know much more about sushi
and sashimi that I do. However, we may differ a little on tastes.

--

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Potomac, Maryland

Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

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"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
> Mustache wrote on Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:40:47 -0500:
>
>
>>Well I just corrected the Wikipedia entry on Sashimi concerning that
>>erroneous reference to gari. I did most of the history portion of the
>>sushi
>> entry and it never occurred to me to look at the sashimi page.

>
>
>
> Thanks for the notification. I think the sashimi entry is much improved
> and overall the article is most informative. I don't mean to sound
> condescending; I'd be the first to admit you know much more about sushi
> and sashimi that I do. However, we may differ a little on tastes.
>


That's a good thing.
If we didn't have different tastes I don't think there would be so many
varieties.

Musashi



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"Zaghadka" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:40:47 -0500, in alt.food.sushi, Musashi wrote:
>
>>
>>"James Silverton" > wrote in message
...
>>> Musashi wrote on Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:43:49 -0500:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "James Silverton" > wrote in
>>>> message ...
>>>>> Hello All!
>>>>>
>>>>> I just enjoyed a lunch of take-out sashimi and thought I'd
>>>>> look it up on Wikipedia. A phrase caught my attention: "a dipping
>>>>> sauce (soy sauce with wasabi paste and thinly-sliced ginger
>>>>> root or gari, and ponzu)" That doesn't fit with my tastes,
>>>>> ponzu might work for some things as might tamari, which is
>>>>> not mentioned, but not for all and putting gari in the
>>>>> dipping sauce does not seen to show much understanding.
>>>>>
>>>> The above two sauces for dipping sashimi are the most common.
>>>> Shoyu (soy sauce) and wasabi is obviously THE most common.
>>>> Ponzu, usually with condiments including GRATED GINGER is
>>>> another. I think the above reference to gari is a clear
>>>> mistake as it's never used together with the shoyu.
>>>> Certain dishes always call for Ponzu rather than wasabi-jouyu.
>>>> (soy sauce & wasabi),
>>>> such as all ultra-thin sliced sashimi called usu-zukuri. The
>>>> most well known of these
>>>> would be Hirame and Suzuki. Fugu is also served this way.
>>>> Katsuo no Tataki is also always served with ponzu while the
>>>> added condiments vary
>>>> according to region.
>>>
>>>> While Wasabi-jouyu (soy sauce & wasabi) is the most common
>>>> dip, there are in fact
>>>> perhaps a dozen or more other soy sauce & somethinng mixtures which one
>>>> normally
>>>> doesn't see, such as shouga-jouyu (soy sauice & ginger),
>>>> negi-jouyu (soy sauce & scallions), etc.
>>>> Depending on the region in Japan the local people may use a
>>>> different dipping sauce.
>>>> In Kagoshima, the southernost end of Kyushu, sashimi is
>>>> usually eaten dipped in
>>>> Karashi-jouyu (soy sauce & hot mustard) rather than wasabi.
>>>> In Okinawa they use a miso sauce rather than soy sauce.
>>>
>>> Thanks, very interesting indeed! I can't see any objection to grated
>>> *fresh* ginger if you want to prepare a dipping sauce. It's certainly
>>> used
>>> with soy sauce and other ingredients in Chinese stir-fry and fried rice
>>> dishes. However, to me, a universal dipping sauce for all sorts of fish
>>> in
>>> a mixed sashimi platter is not particularly attractive. There are
>>> certain
>>> types of sashimi, like octopus, where a slice of lemon served with it is
>>> appropriate, AFAIAC. I think I mentioned that tuna with real shiso,
>>> dipped
>>> in shoyu is pleasant.

>>
>>
>>Well I just corrected the Wikipedia entry on Sashimi concerning that
>>erroneous
>>reference to gari. I did most of the history portion of the sushi entry
>>and
>>it never
>>occurred to me to look at the sashimi page.
>>

>
> Go Wikipedia. I'll have to read through your contributions. I've been
> studying.
> I just started eating nigiri with my fingers (which I prefer), asking for
> wasabi under the fish, and heck, even knowing that it's called "nigiri" in
> the
> first place. ;^)
>
> --
> Zag


That's the great thing about Nigiri Zushi. It's really a finger food.
And it's not some stiff pompous "for royalty only" type of food.
Everyone should enjoy in a relaxed atmnosphere.

Musashi



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