What a dilemma!

We're trying to do our own Swedish smörgåsbord with pickled herring. We
use to eat it at the now-closed Gustaf-Anders restaurant, one of the
finest Swedish restaurants outside Sweden. So we know what it tastes
like. It doesn't taste as mushy as the packated Russian salted/oiled
herring and it doesn't taste as "toothy" as the Polish vinegared. These
we've tried from the local Russion deli.

We'd like to start with fresh herring, but being located in Southern
California, we can forget that. Still, frozen herring filets are fine,
since we intend to pickle and prepare them ourselves. So far, the only
place I can find that ships is Lake Superior Seafood. I thought
herring were strictly fresh-water and expected them to be coming from
the North Atlantic or Baltic.

Assuming there is a fresh-water version in Lake Superior, is it a
reasonable substitution for Atlantic herring?

Any thoughts on the varied confusing matters would be appreciated.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

"Gerry" > wrote in message
news:2008111014230516807-somewhere@sunnycalif...

> I thought herring were strictly fresh-water


No, they are never fresh water. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring


> and expected them to be coming from the North Atlantic or Baltic.


Often, but not always. And the North Atlantic and Baltic are not fresh
water.

What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.

> wrote in message
...

> What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
> Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.


I'm not a giant herring fan, but in that respect, I'm the same as you. I
like that a lot too. Haven't had it in years, though.

>> I thought herring were strictly fresh-water
>
> No, they are never fresh water. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring

Even Baltic herring which lives in brackish water.

Baltic herring is often considered as 'poor man's salmon' here in Finland but it is excellent as sushi if marinated a minute or so in (slightly sweetened) rice vinegar. Longer time will soften the beautiful blue-silver skin and it will turn to smudge very easily.

Jukka

On 2008-11-11 06:37:58 -0800, "Ken Blake"
> said:

> "Gerry" > wrote in message
> news:2008111014230516807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
>
>> I thought herring were strictly fresh-water

I said that upside down. I thought they were salt-water only from the
Atlantic and Baltic.

> No, they are never fresh water. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring
>
>
>> and expected them to be coming from the North Atlantic or Baltic.
>
>
> Often, but not always. And the North Atlantic and Baltic are not fresh
> water.

Yes, I find that they are in the Pacific as well, but I guess they
aren't worthy of sale here for some reason...
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

"Gerry" > wrote in message
news:2008111014230516807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
> What a dilemma!
>
> We're trying to do our own Swedish smörgåsbord with pickled herring. We
> use to eat it at the now-closed Gustaf-Anders restaurant, one of the
> finest Swedish restaurants outside Sweden. So we know what it tastes
> like. It doesn't taste as mushy as the packated Russian salted/oiled
> herring and it doesn't taste as "toothy" as the Polish vinegared. These
> we've tried from the local Russion deli.
>
> We'd like to start with fresh herring, but being located in Southern
> California, we can forget that. Still, frozen herring filets are fine,
> since we intend to pickle and prepare them ourselves. So far, the only
> place I can find that ships is Lake Superior Seafood. I thought herring
> were strictly fresh-water and expected them to be coming from the North
> Atlantic or Baltic.
>
> Assuming there is a fresh-water version in Lake Superior, is it a
> reasonable substitution for Atlantic herring?
>
> Any thoughts on the varied confusing matters would be appreciated.
> --
> Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
>

Gerry,

Lake Superior Foods most likely ships Lake Herring, which is not the
same fish as the Herring of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.
I believe it has an adipose fin making it a relative of the Whitefish and
Cisco.
Whereas the Herring has none as it is related to Sardines, Shad, Alewives
and Tarpon.
I've heard of Lake Herring as a smoked product, but I have no experience
with it's taste. It may or may not be an acceptable substitute, although as
you intend
to pickle it I tend to think it would be acceptable.
Ocean Herring, both Atlantic and Pacific are sal****er fish which tolerate
brackish waters
and will often come up rivers. But they can't survive pure fresh water.
One of the largest Herring industries is British Colombia, which ships alot
of Herring
and Herring Roe to the Japanese market. Perhaps there might be a West Coast
Canada
supplier that can ship pcean herring.

Musashi

On 2008-11-10 14:23:05 -0800, Gerry > said:

The stew thickens...

> Still, frozen herring filets are fine, since we intend to pickle and
> prepare them ourselves. So far, the only place I can find that ships
> is Lake Superior Seafood. I thought herring were strictly [SALT-WATER]
> and expected them to be coming from the North Atlantic or Baltic.
>
> Assuming there is a fresh-water version in Lake Superior, is it a
> reasonable substitution for Atlantic herring?

Others have now clarified, wiki entry in hand, that herring are
salt-water. I sent an email to Lake Superior Seafood. It said, in
part:

> Yours is the only concern that seems to ship frozen herring. But it
> apparently comes from Lake Superior. I thought herring was a north
> Atlantic salt-water fish, not a freshwater fish. Am I on the right
> track or should I be snooping elsewhere?

Their response:

> I think you are looking for the salt water fish, our herring does come
> from Lake Superior, it is a relative of the whitefish.

Whaaat? Either herring is a sometimes fresh-water fish or they aren't
selling herring. Take your pick. So strange...
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

On 2008-11-11 13:54:08 -0800, "Musashi" > said:

>> Assuming there is a fresh-water version in Lake Superior, is it a
>> reasonable substitution for Atlantic herring?
>>
>> Any thoughts on the varied confusing matters would be appreciated.
>
> Lake Superior Foods most likely ships Lake Herring, which is not the
> same fish as the Herring of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.
> I believe it has an adipose fin making it a relative of the Whitefish and
> Cisco.

I just called them up real time. Great people on the phone. They
explained that these herring that they have are in fact not herring,
they are cisco. I don't know wy they don't say cisco instead of
herring on their website.

> Whereas the Herring has none as it is related to Sardines, Shad, Alewives
> and Tarpon.
> I've heard of Lake Herring as a smoked product, but I have no experience
> with it's taste. It may or may not be an acceptable substitute, although as
> you intendto pickle it I tend to think it would be acceptable.

These people do the bulk of their business in various kinds of smoked
fish. Which I happen to love, anyway. I'll give their sturgeon and
trout a look once my current dilemma is addressed.

> Ocean Herring, both Atlantic and Pacific are sal****er fish which tolerate
> brackish waters and will often come up rivers. But they can't survive
> pure fresh water.
> One of the largest Herring industries is British Colombia, which ships alot
> of Herring and Herring Roe to the Japanese market. Perhaps there might
> be a West Coast
> Canadasupplier that can ship pcean herring.

Many thanks, Musashi. If you can come up with a name for such
companies, let me know. I've been googling this thing for days and am
about to give up and go with dressing jarred herring. I can't imagine
that's what the Swedes do...
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

wrote:
> What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
> Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.

Yeah! Me too.. so good!

--
Dan

"Gerry" > wrote in message
news:2008111112061750073-somewhere@sunnycalif...

> On 2008-11-11 06:37:58 -0800, "Ken Blake"
> > said:
>
>> "Gerry" > wrote in message
>> news:2008111014230516807-somewhere@sunnycalif...
>>
>>> I thought herring were strictly fresh-water
>
> I said that upside down. I thought they were salt-water only from the
> Atlantic and Baltic.


OK, thanks for the clarification.



>> No, they are never fresh water. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herring
>>
>>
>>> and expected them to be coming from the North Atlantic or Baltic.
>>
>>
>> Often, but not always. And the North Atlantic and Baltic are not fresh
>> water.
>
> Yes, I find that they are in the Pacific as well, but I guess they aren't
> worthy of sale here for some reason...
> --
> Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
>

"Gerry" > wrote in message
news:2008111114081875249-somewhere@sunnycalif...
> On 2008-11-11 13:54:08 -0800, "Musashi" > said:
>
>>> Assuming there is a fresh-water version in Lake Superior, is it a
>>> reasonable substitution for Atlantic herring?
>>>
>>> Any thoughts on the varied confusing matters would be appreciated.
>>
>> Lake Superior Foods most likely ships Lake Herring, which is not the
>> same fish as the Herring of the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans.
>> I believe it has an adipose fin making it a relative of the Whitefish and
>> Cisco.
>
> I just called them up real time. Great people on the phone. They
> explained that these herring that they have are in fact not herring, they
> are cisco. I don't know wy they don't say cisco instead of herring on
> their website.
>
>> Whereas the Herring has none as it is related to Sardines, Shad, Alewives
>> and Tarpon.
>> I've heard of Lake Herring as a smoked product, but I have no experience
>> with it's taste. It may or may not be an acceptable substitute, although
>> as
>> you intendto pickle it I tend to think it would be acceptable.
>
> These people do the bulk of their business in various kinds of smoked
> fish. Which I happen to love, anyway. I'll give their sturgeon and trout
> a look once my current dilemma is addressed.
>
>> Ocean Herring, both Atlantic and Pacific are sal****er fish which
>> tolerate
>> brackish waters and will often come up rivers. But they can't survive
>> pure fresh water.
>> One of the largest Herring industries is British Colombia, which ships
>> alot
>> of Herring and Herring Roe to the Japanese market. Perhaps there might be
>> a West Coast
>> Canadasupplier that can ship pcean herring.
>
> Many thanks, Musashi. If you can come up with a name for such companies,
> let me know. I've been googling this thing for days and am about to give
> up and go with dressing jarred herring. I can't imagine that's what the
> Swedes do...
> --
> Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
>

Have you tried this?
http://www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com/herring.htm

> wrote in message
...
> What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
> Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.

The Oyster Bar in New York City's Grand Central Station
still does New Herring in season which is I think end of May through
June. When I first discovered this they were anout $4.00 each but I think
now they are more like 7-8.00 each as they are airfreighted from Holland.
This is the only place I know of in the US that carries it.

Musashi

On 2008-11-12 09:06:22 -0800, "Musashi" > said:

>> Many thanks, Musashi. If you can come up with a name for such companies,
>> let me know. I've been googling this thing for days and am about to give
>> up and go with dressing jarred herring. I can't imagine that's what the
>> Swedes do...
>
> Have you tried this?
> http://www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com/herring.htm

I hadn't seen it, no. But I've now requested a quote. Thanks anew!
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

On Nov 12, 10:09*am, "Musashi" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
> > Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.
>
> The Oyster Bar in New York City's Grand Central Station
> still does New Herring in season which is I think end of May through
> June. When I first discovered this they were anout $4.00 each but I think
> now they are more like 7-8.00 each as they are airfreighted from Holland.
> This is the only place I know of in the US that carries it.
>
> Musashi



We talked about this subject a while back here. Why is it that sushi
achieved such popularity here, but not raw herring?

> wrote in message
...
On Nov 12, 10:09 am, "Musashi" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > What I'd like is the raw green herring that they sell on the street in
> > Amsterdam, but I've never seen it here.
>
> The Oyster Bar in New York City's Grand Central Station
> still does New Herring in season which is I think end of May through
> June. When I first discovered this they were anout $4.00 each but I think
> now they are more like 7-8.00 each as they are airfreighted from Holland.
> This is the only place I know of in the US that carries it.
>
> Musashi



>We talked about this subject a while back here. Why is it that sushi
>achieved such popularity here, but not raw herring?

Very good question. With so many people of Dutch descent from Pennsylvania
to Michigan and beyond,
one would have thought they would have brought this tradition with them. Of
course, the immigrants
may not have been from the coastal areas where the herring tradition
prevails. Even then why it didn't
spread directly from Holland to the US afterwards, as sushi did, is also a
mystery.

M

On 2008-11-13 10:35:25 -0800, "Musashi" > said:
>> We talked about this subject a while back here. Why is it that sushi
>> achieved such popularity here, but not raw herring?
>
> Very good question. With so many people of Dutch descent from
> Pennsylvania to Michigan and beyond, one would have thought they would
> have brought this tradition with them. Of course, the immigrants may
> not have been from the coastal areas where the herring tradition
> prevails. Even then why it didn't spread directly from Holland to the
> US afterwards, as sushi did, is also a mystery.

There certainly have been a lost of Swedes in the country too, but you
don't get much of an opportunity to find Swedish food. Why isn't gravad
lax or gravlax more prevalent.

I think that sushi brought it's own little all-inclusive environment
with it. Where as Scandanavian food, or Dutch food, hasn't really even
attempted that.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

Gerry wrote:
> On 2008-11-13 10:35:25 -0800, "Musashi" > said:
>>> We talked about this subject a while back here. Why is it that sushi
>>> achieved such popularity here, but not raw herring?
>>
>> Very good question. With so many people of Dutch descent from
>> Pennsylvania to Michigan and beyond, one would have thought they would
>> have brought this tradition with them. Of course, the immigrants may
>> not have been from the coastal areas where the herring tradition
>> prevails. Even then why it didn't spread directly from Holland to the
>> US afterwards, as sushi did, is also a mystery.
>
> There certainly have been a lost of Swedes in the country too, but you
> don't get much of an opportunity to find Swedish food. Why isn't gravad
> lax or gravlax more prevalent.
>
> I think that sushi brought it's own little all-inclusive environment
> with it. Where as Scandanavian food, or Dutch food, hasn't really even
> attempted that.

Don't forget the lutefisk festival in Wisconsin! Fine Scandinavian food
is not completely absent from the States

In the NYC metro area, Gravlax is pretty easy to find. I should know, I
live there, I'm of Swedish descent and can't get enough of the stuff.
And, of course, we've got Aquavit, the fine Swedish restaurant started
by Marcus Samuelsson.

And don't forget Swedish fish! (yes, they actually came from Sweden)

--
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/ The Sushi FAQ ...><((((º>
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiotaku/ The Sushi Otaku Blog
HTTP://www.sushifaq.com/sushiyapedia/ Sushi-Ya-Pedia Restaurant Finder
HTTP://www.theteafaq.com/ The Tea FAQ
HTTP://www.jerkyfaq.com/ The Jerky FAQ
HTTP://www.omega3faq.com/ The Omega 3 Fatty Acids FAQ

On 2008-11-12 09:06:22 -0800, "Musashi" > said:

> Have you tried this?
> http://www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com/herring.htm

For the record, they have not responded to the request-for-quote I
entered at their website. I called the number I managed to find despite
the fact that their base website ( just the
www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com part) is blank. The phone number is "no
longer in service".

I sent a last-ditch email directly to the address I found, but I have
my doubts I'll get a response.

Any others with ideas for frozen herring filets greatly appreciated.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

On 2008-11-15 09:05:39 -0800, Gerry > said:

> On 2008-11-12 09:06:22 -0800, "Musashi" > said:
>
>> Have you tried this?
>> http://www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com/herring.htm
>
> For the record, they have not responded to the request-for-quote I
> entered at their website. I called the number I managed to find despite
> the fact that their base website ( just the
> www.starvinmarvinsseafoods.com part) is blank. The phone number is "no
> longer in service".
>
> I sent a last-ditch email directly to the address I found, but I have
> my doubts I'll get a response.
>
> Any others with ideas for frozen herring filets greatly appreciated.

The saga continue. Marvin responds via email that he isn't out of
business and doesn't know what's up with the phone, since it rings
every 2 seconds he says. I tried again and found it fact that it says
"all circuits are busy". My bad.

He doesn't sell retail but in 40-ft containers! He provided another
wing of his company that might be able to help retail. I'll report
news as it comes in.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.

On 2008-11-10 14:23:05 -0800, Gerry > said:

> We're trying to do our own Swedish smörgåsbord with pickled herring. We
> use to eat it at the now-closed Gustaf-Anders restaurant, one of the
> finest Swedish restaurants outside Sweden. So we know what it tastes
> like. It doesn't taste as mushy as the packated Russian salted/oiled
> herring and it doesn't taste as "toothy" as the Polish vinegared. These
> we've tried from the local Russion deli.
>
> We'd like to start with fresh herring, but being located in Southern
> California, we can forget that. Still, frozen herring filets are fine,
> since we intend to pickle and prepare them ourselves. So far, the only
> place I can find that ships is Lake Superior Seafood. I thought
> herring were strictly fresh-water and expected them to be coming from
> the North Atlantic or Baltic.

As a follow-up our problems are solved.

We went to Olson's Deli in Los Angeles last weekend and besides the
many other delightful items they had, they had their own pickled
herring in a few varities, packed in one-pound plastic take-out
containers. It was great stuff. We asked where they got the fish they
used and it was packaged matjes herring, though admittedly they got the
herring from larger continers that the 8 oz. jars or tins one might
find at Ikea and the local supermarkets.

But that's where they start with a lightly pickled fish. They 5-6
pound tubs of this stuff, from a supplier in Sweden likely, for about
$28. So we'll get one of those, slice the fillets up to appropriate
size, then put some in a mustard sauce, some in a dill sauce, etc. and
have it read fro the smörgåsbord.

Case closed.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.