I have a buttermilk pancake recipe that I like, and I am hard to please
with pancakes. Buttermilk is such a pain, I'd rather use sourdough start
which I have handy anytime (provided I put it out the night before). I'd
like to keep the creamy taste, have some of the good sourdough/sour
taste, and most importantly not end up with rubbery or too fluffy pancakes.

I think the rubber effect I so often observe when I try to make
sourdough pancakes is due to the gluten formed in the start, so I think
one needs to use some start and some fresh flour to offset this.

Here's the original recipe:

3c flour
1T soda
1t salt

3c buttermilk
4 eggs
1/3c oil

This makes way too much for just the two of us, so I quarter the recipe.
To make the measurements easier I then 4/3 the recipe (so 1/3
altogether), except the egg, but I think it's ok, and I fudge on the oil
by 1/3t.

So here's my plan:

1c start

1/2c flour
1t soda
1/3t salt

1 egg
1/2c milk
5t oil


My questions: do you think it's a good plan (tomorrow I'll find out
empirically), specifically is the soda amount still relevant and is the
flour/start proportion good for flavor and non-rubberiness? Mostly I'm
interested in your pontificating theories for the sake of speculation.

Hans Fugal wrote:

> So here's my plan:
>
> 1c start
>
> 1/2c flour
> 1t soda
> 1/3t salt
>
> 1 egg
> 1/2c milk
> 5t oil
>
>
> My questions: do you think it's a good plan (tomorrow I'll find out
> empirically), specifically is the soda amount still relevant and is the
> flour/start proportion good for flavor and non-rubberiness? Mostly I'm
> interested in your pontificating theories for the sake of speculation.
-----------------------


<ok... pontification alert>

Nope. About half of your total flour is committed to water before the
batter is made. Gluten will form and the pancakes will not be tender. I
suppose if you made an extremely thin starter to reduce the flour but
still generate acid it might go.

Why not just work on the buttermilk end? The result is best with no
water, all buttermilk. I would culture some whole milk with a
tablespoon or two of buttermilk and leave it out (covered) overnight.
In the morning you should be at the thick, sweet smelling stage. There
will be plenty of acid for the rise and with whole milk you can omit
the oil as well. The pancakes will be much lighter and still have
plenty of mouth-feel. Save your oil use for the pan. Makes the cakes
crisper, gives them a visually pleasing surface.

100% white flour pancakes aren't so hot either. Freshly milled corn
flour is a terrific addition. 35% corn flour is a good place to start.


Baking soda leavens well but can add odd flavors (which is why folks
add oil + too much sugar to the batter). Try a 50-50 blend of baking
soda and cream of tartar instead.

If whole corn for milling is hard to find perhaps you can get buckwheat
groats. Buckwheat pancakes are a lost art and represent the finest
pancake experience. They are best at 100% buckwheat. No flour
what-so-ever. The buckwheat should be milled coarsely, not like meal,
but between flour and meal. Mill too fine and the batter gets glue-y.
If you nail the milling, they are light enough to float off the plate.

<end pont. >

Will wrote:
> Hans Fugal wrote:
>
>> So here's my plan:
>>
>> 1c start
>>
>> 1/2c flour
>> 1t soda
>> 1/3t salt
>>
>> 1 egg
>> 1/2c milk
>> 5t oil
>>
>>
>> My questions: do you think it's a good plan (tomorrow I'll find out
>> empirically), specifically is the soda amount still relevant and is the
>> flour/start proportion good for flavor and non-rubberiness? Mostly I'm
>> interested in your pontificating theories for the sake of speculation.
> -----------------------
>
>
> <ok... pontification alert>
>
> Nope. About half of your total flour is committed to water before the
> batter is made. Gluten will form and the pancakes will not be tender. I
> suppose if you made an extremely thin starter to reduce the flour but
> still generate acid it might go.`

The thin starter is a good idea, I may try it. I wonder what the
thinnest you could go while still getting a good culture would be...

> Why not just work on the buttermilk end? The result is best with no

What, ditch sourdough altogether? Actually sourdough pancakes (so far)
have not ranked high on my list of great things to make with sourdough,
but I have to wonder if all sourdough pancakes are rubbery disasters
that people love anyway because of the sourdough taste.

> water, all buttermilk. I would culture some whole milk with a
> tablespoon or two of buttermilk and leave it out (covered) overnight.
> In the morning you should be at the thick, sweet smelling stage. There
> will be plenty of acid for the rise and with whole milk you can omit
> the oil as well. The pancakes will be much lighter and still have
> plenty of mouth-feel. Save your oil use for the pan. Makes the cakes
> crisper, gives them a visually pleasing surface.

FBOW whole milk is just as hard to come by in my house as buttermilk.
Actually harder, because not only do I have to remember to request it
before shopping day, but I have to convince my wife I actually need
_whole_ milk.

> 100% white flour pancakes aren't so hot either. Freshly milled corn
> flour is a terrific addition. 35% corn flour is a good place to start.

We often use various kinds of whole grain mixed. Much more intresting.

> Baking soda leavens well but can add odd flavors (which is why folks
> add oil + too much sugar to the batter). Try a 50-50 blend of baking
> soda and cream of tartar instead.

Hmm, methinks you are confused here. Mixing soda and cream of tartar is
a substitute for baking powder, which is basically baking soda and a
powdered acid like cream of tartar. If the soda adds odd flavors then
you have too much soda or not enough acid.

> If you nail the milling, they are light enough to float off the plate.

Which sounds absolutely dreadful. If there's one thing I can't stand
it's a pancake so light and fluffy that it absorbs 3 cups of syrup and
still tastes dry.

Hans Fugal wrote:

> Hmm, methinks you are confused here. Mixing soda and cream of tartar is
> a substitute for baking powder, which is basically baking soda and a
> powdered acid like cream of tartar. If the soda adds odd flavors then
> you have too much soda or not enough acid.
-----------------
Indeed... it is a substitute for baking powder. My bad, I should have
stated that.
And since my results have been better with this substitute, I think you
are right. I must have been using too much soda before... or maybe the
buttermilk was too mild. I have shifted to culturing my own since
Nightingale posted that little gem a while back. I will try soda alone
next time.
------------------
>
> > If you nail the milling, they are light enough to float off the plate.
>
> Which sounds absolutely dreadful. If there's one thing I can't stand
> it's a pancake so light and fluffy that it absorbs 3 cups of syrup and
> still tastes dry.
---------------------

<pontification alert>

Who said anything about syrup? You can't use syrup on a pancake, you
get glop. Fruit and well drained yogurt cheese. The closest we get to
syrup is soaking (and blending) dried fruit for a sweet sauce... Prunes
are great or even a bit of crushed poppy seed with butter. No syrup.
Might as well go to IHOP.

<end alert>

Hans Fugal wrote:
> I have a buttermilk pancake recipe that I like, and I am hard to please
> with pancakes. Buttermilk is such a pain, I'd rather use sourdough start
> which I have handy anytime (provided I put it out the night before). I'd
> like to keep the creamy taste, have some of the good sourdough/sour
> taste, and most importantly not end up with rubbery or too fluffy pancakes.
>
> I think the rubber effect I so often observe when I try to make
> sourdough pancakes is due to the gluten formed in the start, so I think
> one needs to use some start and some fresh flour to offset this.

OK, after reading your exchange with Will, I thought 'd throw this into
the ring. Despite the title, it is not a true sourdough, as it only
ferments overnight with the organisms in the flour, and is boosted by a
tiny bit of yeast. They are *very* good pancakes, though! Since pancake
style is probably even more of a religious issue than Sourdough, they
will not conform to everyone's taste, but I have found hardly any family
or guests that don't inhale them...

Dave

OVERNIGHT SOURDOUGH PANCAKES

Makes about 24, 2 1/2" pancakes.

Starter: (The night before)

1 Cup Unbleached flour
2 Tbl Sugar
1 Cup Warm water
1 tiny bit, 0.1 gram or less, dry yeast
I add about a 1/4" diameter single layer on the end
of a knife point. Can't weigh it, myself.

Water needs to be "baby bath" temp, about 90 - 95F, and should be
bottled water, or boiled and cooled tap water. The chlorine in tap water
will kill the natural yeasts and bacteria that make the sourdough!

Batter: (When ready to cook)

1 Lrg Egg, beaten
1 Tbl Honey or brown sugar
1 tsp Salt
1/2 tsp baking soda
1/2 tsp baking powder
3 Tbl Melted butter

The sourdough starter will have most likely settled out overnight.
Simply stir the liquid on top back into the flour batter.
Add the beaten egg and mix in the honey or sugar and salt.
Add the baking powder and soda, stirring just to mix thoroughly.
Finally, mix the melted butter into the starter.

Fry on a lightly greased or buttered griddle, until bubbles start to
break and the edges begin to crisp.
Turn and cook another 30 seconds or so.

The cakes will be very thin, but tender, not rubbery.
My preference is to eat them with fruit, preserves, a little powdered
sugar, or just lightly buttered.

Will wrote:

> Who said anything about syrup? You can't use syrup on a pancake, you
> get glop.

That depends on your definition of pancake. Maybe that's where my
trouble is. A modest amount of real maple syrup on pancakes that aren't
too fluffy is divine.

> Might as well go to IHOP.

Now that's an insult. ;-)

"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message
...
> Will wrote:
>
>> Might as well go to IHOP.
>
> Now that's an insult. ;-)

I have been making pancakes with fresh ground flour for a few weeks now.
Actually fresh wheat flour, flour I make from grinding rolled oats, and
fresh ground flax seeds. I use all buttermilk and fresh eggs (from the farm
down the street), and a little baking soda. Home made strawberry rhubarb
syrup tops them off great.

hutchndi

Hans Fugal wrote:
> I have a buttermilk pancake recipe that I like, and I am hard to please
> with pancakes. Buttermilk is such a pain, I'd rather use sourdough start
> which I have handy anytime (provided I put it out the night before). I'd
> like to keep the creamy taste, have some of the good sourdough/sour
> taste, and most importantly not end up with rubbery or too fluffy pancakes.
>


Hans,

I am with you on the fluffiness of pancakes. My Norwegian grandmother
made the best moistest, flatest buttermilk pancakes ever. She never
used a recipe, but I loved them so much that one day I measured all her
ingredients before she used them and then measured them, again, when
she was done. I now have "her" recipe. Of course, now I use kefir
instead of buttermilk.

Anyway, I make the recipe, as is, if I am in the mood for very flat,
very moist pancakes (which is most of the time). This batter is quite
thin and doesn't remind me of standard pancake batter. However, when I
have guests that are not used to this type of pancake, I add a little
extra flour to make it like the standard batter. This makes a
fluffier, but yet very moist pancake. So, what I am getting at after
this long-winded preface is, maybe you just need to add a little more
liquid to your sourdough pancake batter to make it moister and not as
fluffy.

Nancy

naschol wrote:
> So, what I am getting at after
> this long-winded preface is, maybe you just need to add a little more
> liquid to your sourdough pancake batter to make it moister and not as
> fluffy.

Thanks for the ideas. Actually the sourdough pancake recipe my family
uses is quite runny (primarily I think because they or the instructions
they got confuse 100% hydration with 1:1 volume), and it makes a flat
pancake, but it is still rubbery.

Today's experiment turned out quite well. I took one part of my wife's
multigrain homemade pancake mix, which includes various kinds of flour,
some baking soda and powder, some buttermilk powder, etc., and I added
one part by flour of start, and the egg, oil, and enough water to make a
batter the consistency I like. The first pancake was a little too flat,
so I added a small pinch of baking powder (I only had half a cup of
batter to start with) and the rest were just right. Not rubbery, nice
sour taste, the other hearty tastes were still there, and not too
fluffy. That mix is usually too hearty and serious for my taste, but
this was delicious.

Nancy wrote:

> I now have [my norwegian grandma's] recipe.

Care to share?

Cheers,

--
Klaus Alexander Seistrup
Copenhagen, Denmark
http://surdej.dk/

We have always used the pancake recipe from the "Better Crocker" cookbook.
Of course, it has no sourdough in the recipe, but I modify it with freshly
ground whole wheat flour, nuts, berries, etc. It is a "killer" recipe, very
similar to this one you have mentioned. I believe the only ingredient not
mentioned in your recipe that is included in the BC recipe is baking powder.
Cooked pancakes freeze so well. When I make a big batch I go ahead and cook
the rest of the batter and freeze in plastic bags. A couple of minutes in
the microwave and they taste exactly like I just took them off of the
griddle ................... So good and sooooo fattening. But at least
they contain whole wheat!

"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message
...
>I have a buttermilk pancake recipe that I like, and I am hard to please
>with pancakes. Buttermilk is such a pain, I'd rather use sourdough start
>which I have handy anytime (provided I put it out the night before). I'd
>like to keep the creamy taste, have some of the good sourdough/sour taste,
>and most importantly not end up with rubbery or too fluffy pancakes.
>
> I think the rubber effect I so often observe when I try to make sourdough
> pancakes is due to the gluten formed in the start, so I think one needs to
> use some start and some fresh flour to offset this.
>
> Here's the original recipe:
>
> 3c flour
> 1T soda
> 1t salt
>
> 3c buttermilk
> 4 eggs
> 1/3c oil
>
> This makes way too much for just the two of us, so I quarter the recipe.
> To make the measurements easier I then 4/3 the recipe (so 1/3 altogether),
> except the egg, but I think it's ok, and I fudge on the oil by 1/3t.
>
> So here's my plan:
>
> 1c start
>
> 1/2c flour
> 1t soda
> 1/3t salt
>
> 1 egg
> 1/2c milk
> 5t oil
>
>
> My questions: do you think it's a good plan (tomorrow I'll find out
> empirically), specifically is the soda amount still relevant and is the
> flour/start proportion good for flavor and non-rubberiness? Mostly I'm
> interested in your pontificating theories for the sake of speculation.

BigJohn wrote:
> We have always used the pancake recipe from the "Better Crocker" cookbook.
> Of course, it has no sourdough in the recipe, but I modify it with freshly
> ground whole wheat flour, nuts, berries, etc. It is a "killer" recipe, very
> similar to this one you have mentioned. I believe the only ingredient not
> mentioned in your recipe that is included in the BC recipe is baking powder.
> Cooked pancakes freeze so well. When I make a big batch I go ahead and cook
> the rest of the batter and freeze in plastic bags. A couple of minutes in
> the microwave and they taste exactly like I just took them off of the
> griddle ................... So good and sooooo fattening. But at least
> they contain whole wheat!

I think my mom probably got it from there originally. It does call for
baking powder in the original but I was already experimenting with
replacing it with soda. Incidentally the recipe I posted calls for too
much soda, at least for the buttermilk I have this time.

Pancakery is not a high skill, being but slightly more
advanced than startermuckery. Anything wetted and
mixed with some flour will fry. Drenched with syrup,
it may be coaxed down the gullet. Therefore you
become a culinary creator? Guess again!

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
news:HErsg.3222$Th7.606@trnddc05...
Pancakery is not a high skill, being but slightly more
advanced than startermuckery. Anything wetted and
mixed with some flour will fry. Drenched with syrup,
it may be coaxed down the gullet. Therefore you
become a culinary creator? Guess again!

--
Dicky

The need of drenching with enough syrup to render something palatable is
precisely the reason culanary elevation of pancakery should recieve higher
importance. Myself I have decided I care less for sourdough pancakes after
running through many of the recipes available, fresh wholegrain buttermilk
pancakes are so much better. If your pancakes need a flood of goo to help
them down, perhaps your spending to much time on sourdough.

hutchndi ;-)

hutchndi wrote:

>
> The need of drenching with enough syrup to render something palatable is
> precisely the reason culanary elevation of pancakery should recieve higher
> importance. Myself I have decided I care less for sourdough pancakes after
> running through many of the recipes available, fresh wholegrain buttermilk
> pancakes are so much better. If your pancakes need a flood of goo to help
> them down, perhaps your spending to much time on sourdough.

Exactly. The expense and health reasons for not using a cup of syrup per
pancake aside, the whole experience is just so much better when the
pancake is more than a syrup vehicle.

"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message ...

>The expense and health reasons for not using a cup of syrup per
> pancake aside, the whole experience is just so much better when the
> pancake is more than a syrup vehicle.

Yes -- anybody who cannot eat his natural SD pancake does not belong
here. Eating it raw earns extra points (qualify as a startermucksucker).

--
Dicky

"hutchndi" > wrote in message news:lKwsg.97506$IZ2.58981@dukeread07...

> If your pancakes need a flood of goo to help them down, perhaps
> your spending to much time on sourdough.

They need something.

Strawberry pancakes from failed starter batch:
http://mysite.verizon.net/DickyA/StrawBPancake.jpg

Soured failed starter
Sodium bicarbonate dispersed in water
Cornstarch (against stringyness)
Salt
(sugared sliced strawberries and whipped cream)

Just hated to throw the starter away.

No other reason.

--
Dicky