Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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Old 01-04-2006, 08:28 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe, I must have overtaxed my KA - I had to divide
the dough in half when the motor started to smell. Years ago, I only
kneaded by hand, but now I have bilateral epicondilytis (aka tennis
elbow albeit I never played tennis). The stores around here only carry
Kitchen Aid Mixers. Thanks,
Diane


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Old 02-04-2006, 12:01 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On 1 Apr 2006 11:28:01 -0800, BestBread wrote:

Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe, I must have overtaxed my KA - I had to divide
the dough in half when the motor started to smell. Years ago, I only
kneaded by hand, but now I have bilateral epicondilytis (aka tennis
elbow albeit I never played tennis). The stores around here only carry
Kitchen Aid Mixers.



There are lots of on-line vendors who carry a variety of mixers. Check out
bizrate.com or google.

However, a few thoughts. KitchenAid mixers will do a decent job on bread
doughs IF you read the manual and stay within their guidelines. Each mixer
has a maximum amount of flour it is rated for. However, that is white
flour. If you are using whole wheat or rye, you need to cut that in half.
Next, the KA's have a limited duty cycle. They suggest you not knead too
long (check your manual for the limits here), and most also suggest no more
than 2 batches back to back, followed by a 45 minute or so cool-down period
(again, check your manual). I don't know why the call some of their
machines "professional" or "commercial" when they clearly aren't, but they
are adequate for most home mixing purposes.

Also, despite your elbow issues, I think that making bread by hand isn't out
of the question. I have two suggestions. One is, don't use your arms to
knead. In a martial arts class, my son was taught the arm is weak, but the
body is strong. So, don't hit with your arm, hit with your body, letting
your arm transmit the force. Similarly, you can knead by moving your body,
but not flexing - or putting strain on - your elbows. This will probably
work for you, but may not.

The second suggestion is, don't knead. It really isn't necessary. Instead
of kneading, use a stretch and fold technique. Mix your dough just enough
that the flour is hydrated (wet) and there are no puddles of unincorporated
water. It's OK if the dough is ugly and under-mixed. Really. It's OK if
your starter isn't mixed into the dough completely - even if it is still a
mass of gross strands through your dough. Once the flour is all wet,
transfer the dough to a bowl (if you didn't mix it in a bowl), cover it, and
let it sit for about 45 minutes.

Then remove the dough from the bowl and gently stretch it until it is about
3x as large as it started out in each direction. Try stretching it from the
underside, gently, teasing it, not forcing it. Fold the dough in from each
side like a letter, and place the fold side down in the bowl, cover and let
rest another 45 minutes.

Repeat the stretch and fold two more times. Each time you stretch and fold,
the dough is more developed. After the 3 stretch and folds, you'll be a
amazed to see it's as well developed as if you'd kneaded it - perhaps
better. Let the dough rise until doubled, and then handle it as you
normally would.

With practice, you may decide to do more, or less, stretch and folds. Pay
attention to your dough, it will tell you when it's ready. (That's a
metaphor, not an attempt to give human characteristics to something that is
not human....)

Again, if you use poolishes, starters, autolyse, bigas or other preferments,
don't worry about mixing them in completely at the first step. Even if they
are gloppy gross strands through your dough after the first rough mix,
they'll mix in nicely as you stretch and fold.

If you have a dough with seeds, nuts, grains, raisins or other stuff you'd
normally add at the end of kneading, add them at the start. Because you are
using a gentle non-kneading dough development, these ingredients won't
interfere with your dough development.

You may be surprised to find that your bread is better without kneading than
with it.

I've used this technique to make over 160 loaves of bread in a day pretty
much by myself. No mixer. My wife helps me for about an hour and a half at
the start by measuring ingredients while I do the first rough mixes.

How does this work? Many things can develop the gluten. In this case, the
simple act of wetting the flour does a lot of the work. More work is done
by the yeast's gas stretching the dough. More is done by the gentle
stretching and folding. Together these actions work very effectively to
gently develop the dough.

Good luck,
Mike

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Old 02-04-2006, 03:25 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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G'day all;

What Mike sez!

For years I lusted after a mixer. Kept reading here and other places that "the real bakers" all had 'em and used 'em. Then I got one. Then I discovered "stretch & fold" and "flatten & fold". Now my poor neglected mixer gathers dust waiting for me to make whipped cream or something...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty

"Mike Avery" wrote in message news:mailman.0.1143932505.92866.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
...
The second suggestion is, don't knead. It really isn't necessary. Instead of kneading, use a stretch and fold technique. Mix your dough just enough that the flour is hydrated (wet) and there are no puddles of unincorporated water. It's OK if the dough is ugly and under-mixed. Really. It's OK if your starter isn't mixed into the dough completely - even if it is still a mass of gross strands through your dough. Once the flour is all wet, transfer the dough to a bowl (if you didn't mix it in a bowl), cover it, and let it sit for about 45 minutes.
...
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Old 02-04-2006, 01:52 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Hi Mike,
Thank you so much for your detailed instructions! I will carefully try
your technique this week - unfortunately, my tendonitis is compounded
by a compressed nerve - in fact, I've learned to voice on the computer
and not shake hands (each of which I can't do without consequence), so
what may seem like a logical solution, may not work in my case. I am
most appreciative.
Diane

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Old 02-04-2006, 03:06 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Hello Diane,

I started with a Kitchen Aid mixer but then got a Magic Mill mixer (It's
from Electrolux and is now called "Assistant").

The Kitchenaid is a planetary mixer which drives it's dough hook through
the dough in a stationary bowl and needs a lot of power to do that.

My Kitchenaid started to smoke as well. There is a table of flour
weights dependent on hydration for making bread in the manual for the
Kitchenaid and if one goes over the amounts, the machine gets
overloaded. I think that Kitchenaid mixers can be good for making
smaller amounts of bread dough.

The Magic Mill (and others) spin the bowl and the friction between bowl
and dough moves the dough around a dough hook.

This requires much less power and when comparing the Kitchenaid and
Magic Mill, the Magic Mill is much smoother on the dough, does more
stretching/pressing whereas the Kitchenaid cuts with it's dough hook
through the dough.

With the Magic Mill, I can mix 3500 - 4000 g dough, something which
could never be achieve with the Kitchenaid I had - I think it was a 600
W mixer.

Another comparative Mixer I know about would be the Bosch, but this
mixer hat a stud in the middle of the bowl which I did not like.

There are other, more heavy duty mixers, like spiral mixers for small
lab quantities - but they are much more expensive (I think, over $ 1000,-).

Samartha

With your tennis elbow - I had one and it got healed. You can email me
by removing the "-nospam" from the above email, maybe I can tell you a
few things.


BestBread wrote:
Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe, I must have overtaxed my KA - I had to divide
the dough in half when the motor started to smell. Years ago, I only
kneaded by hand, but now I have bilateral epicondilytis (aka tennis
elbow albeit I never played tennis). The stores around here only carry
Kitchen Aid Mixers. Thanks,
Diane






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Old 02-04-2006, 05:37 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:06:12 -0600, Samartha Deva
wrote:

Hello Diane,

I started with a Kitchen Aid mixer but then got a Magic Mill mixer (It's
from Electrolux and is now called "Assistant").

I, too, have a Magic Mill and find it quite remarkable.

I have arthritis which can sometimes make the simplest bread-making
tasks seem insurmountable. The Magic Mill has made a favorable
difference, but lifting the bowl filled with dough to scrape it out
can be a challenge and the mixer itself is heavy.

Granted, the removal of dough and the moving around of the mixer are
not too different from KA to MM to my Kenwood, but it should be noted.
Before investing in a MM, it would be great if the OP could find out
exactly what body movements are required for set up and use. They may
be ones that are easily accomplished or particularly difficult for
her.

Boron
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Old 02-04-2006, 06:44 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On 4/2/06, Samartha Deva wrote:

Hello Diane,

I started with a Kitchen Aid mixer but then got a Magic Mill mixer (It's
from Electrolux and is now called "Assistant").



Actually, the Swede's can't spell and it's "Assistent". Who knows why?

The Magic Mill (and others) spin the bowl and the friction between bowl
and dough moves the dough around a dough hook.

This requires much less power and when comparing the Kitchenaid and
Magic Mill, the Magic Mill is much smoother on the dough, does more
stretching/pressing whereas the Kitchenaid cuts with it's dough hook
through the dough.

With the Magic Mill, I can mix 3500 - 4000 g dough, something which
could never be achieve with the Kitchenaid I had - I think it was a 600
W mixer.



Thanks for your comments on the Assistent/Magic Mill. I'll have to keep an
eye out for one for a friend.

Have you ever made very low hydration doughs with it - such as bagels or
Challah which hover around 50 - 55% hydration? If so, how did it go? If
you feel like experimenting, I can send you my sourdough bagel recipe.

Another comparative Mixer I know about would be the Bosch, but this
mixer hat a stud in the middle of the bowl which I did not like.



I had a Bosch, and sold it on eBay. It heated the dough excessively, and
didn't develop the dough very well. I also didn't like how the plastic bowl
flexed, so I bought a stainless steel bowl, only to find that parts of the
center post were made with bakelite, which shattered the first time an
employee put the bowl back together incorrectly and used it. Also, the
whisk beaters can not cope with any but the softest butter without
self-destructing. All in all, I was not at all impressed with the Bosch and
do not recommend them to anyone.

Mike

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Old 02-04-2006, 11:39 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe,


I have a K-Tech mixer and I use it almost every day. It mixes up six
pounds of dough without any problem. It probably will do more, but I
leave my dough in the bowl to rise so I have it half empty for that
purpose. I make three 2 pound loaves each time I use it. I never take
more than five minutes to mix. I love my mixer, and would rather use
that then knead by hand.It is so quick and easy for me. I have
directions for using the mixer with sourdough breads at:
http://www.northwestsourdough.com/techniques.html if you would like to
see what I do for mixing sourdoughs.
Have a great day,
Teresa

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Old 03-04-2006, 12:03 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Wow. That's a huge amount of dough. How easily does it clean?
Thanks,
Diane

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Old 03-04-2006, 12:03 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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northwestsourdough.com wrote:
Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe,


I have a K-Tech mixer and I use it almost every day. It mixes up six
pounds of dough without any problem.


If that's the one advertised on the bottom of the page you give below,
that looks just like the one Mike Avery was talking about - the one with
the plastic bowl bending and the post in the middle....

Just out of interest - aren't you making a buck (or a fraction of it)
every time someone clicks on one of your links to Amazon, or is it if
somebody actually buys something?

I always wonder about those things.

S.

It probably will do more, but I
leave my dough in the bowl to rise so I have it half empty for that
purpose. I make three 2 pound loaves each time I use it. I never take
more than five minutes to mix. I love my mixer, and would rather use
that then knead by hand.It is so quick and easy for me. I have
directions for using the mixer with sourdough breads at:
http://www.northwestsourdough.com/techniques.html if you would like to
see what I do for mixing sourdoughs.
Have a great day,
Teresa






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Old 03-04-2006, 12:08 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Oh, I can't seem to figure out how to send you an email. I thought I
knew what I was doing, but the email I sent got bounced back. My
husband is working on taxes, so I'll have to wait to get his techie
assistance. Thanks for your offer of help. I have read just about
every book on the subject and have seen scores of OTs and PTs. Using
Kineseotape has been quite helpful - it's made in Japan, but most
American MDs and therapists don't know about this simple technique.

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Old 03-04-2006, 01:45 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On 4/2/06, Samartha Deva wrote:

northwestsourdough.com wrote:
Can anyone recommend a heavy-duty mixer? This morning when I was
mixing a new SD recipe,


I have a K-Tech mixer and I use it almost every day. It mixes up six
pounds of dough without any problem.


If that's the one advertised on the bottom of the page you give below,
that looks just like the one Mike Avery was talking about - the one with
the plastic bowl bending and the post in the middle....



The one she is using is not the same as the one Amazon is advertising on her
page. The one Amazon is advertizing, at least when I visited the page, is
the same model Bosch that I used and sold on eBay because I really didn't
like it.

Just out of interest - aren't you making a buck (or a fraction of it)
every time someone clicks on one of your links to Amazon, or is it if
somebody actually buys something?



I have some links to half.com for book sales on books I recommend. If
anyone ever uses one of those links and buys a book, I'll get a few pennies
(so far, in 3 or 4 years, no one has followed my book links and bought a
book). I'm also using google ads - it brings in a few bucks a day (please
click the links and make me rich!), enough to cover my dsl costs and a
little bit more.

I only found one company who wanted to support my web page, and when their
ownership changed, they stopped advertising. Actually, they stopped paying
me. After I asked them for clarification and received neither payment nor
clarification, I dropped their ads....

Anyway, someone has to pay for web pages, whether it's the hosts out of the
goodness of their hearts, advertisers, or sales..... in the end, I decided
my page has to at least pay for itself. All of this goes to say that I
personally don't have a problem with Teresa selling things or running
advertising on her page. We're all free to either visit her page or not, to
buy her poroducts or not....

Mike

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Old 03-04-2006, 02:12 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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This is getting confusing. Teresa recommends a KTec, but it turns out
it looks like a Bosch, but isn't. Teresa gave us a link for KTec on a
website which I think belongs to either Teresa or Mike. I'm not sure
because there is no name, but there is a photograph of a female. The
Magic Mill is highly rated as well. I checked out Bakers Catalogue and
they state that the Viking is their "mixer of choice" but also
recommend the Electrolux Assistent (with the non-English spelling) if
you "can't afford a Hobart". I think I'm going to work on writing this
week's grammar test where only pronouns can be ambiguous.
;-)

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Old 03-04-2006, 04:02 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Not sure if this is the exact mixer you are looking at, but Breadbeckers.com
has it for sale and has some detailed info on it.


"BestBread" wrote in message
oups.com...
Wow. That's a huge amount of dough. How easily does it clean?
Thanks,
Diane



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Old 03-04-2006, 04:51 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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If that's the one advertised on the bottom of the page you give below,

that looks just like the one Mike Avery was talking about - the one
with
the plastic bowl bending and the post in the middle....

Just out of interest - aren't you making a buck (or a fraction of it)
every time someone clicks on one of your links to Amazon, or is it if
somebody actually buys something?

Hi The one advertised by Amazon on my website is a Bosch, I tried to
find a company to advertise a K-Tec but so far I haven't been able to.
I have never had a Bosch, so the reviews given here are the ones I
would go by. The K-Tec works great , and I just soak it in warm water
and use a kitchen brush to get the dough off. I got mine off of Ebay
years ago and it has never once given me any problems. So if you can
find one somewhere, I certainly would give it a go. (If you find a
source, drop me an email and I would be happy to see if the company
wanted to advertise on my site). As for making money on Amazon, I have
made 18.33 dollars since I set up my site in January,and sold 22 items
which helps pay for Domanin Name fees,Ebay/Paypal fees for me to be
able to list my sourdough starter.It isn't much but it helps out.
Teresa
So it isn't much, but



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