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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Hard Crust
What is the secret in getting a hard crust?
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Hard Crust
"jim" > wrote in message ... > What is the secret in getting a hard crust? > > steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is also spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion. my dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam. my oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450 for 20 min and 400 for 25 min. dan w |
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dan w wrote:
> "jim" > wrote in message > ... >> What is the secret in getting a hard crust? >> >> > > steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom > portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also > spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is also > spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion. my > dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam. my > oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450 for > 20 min and 400 for 25 min. Could you share why you believe steam creates a hard crust? I've been getting what I would call a hard crust with no steam whatever and cold oven. Maybe my hard crust isn't relatively hard at all. |
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Hard Crust
"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message ... > dan w wrote: > > "jim" > wrote in message > > ... > >> What is the secret in getting a hard crust? > >> > >> > > > > steam. i take my broiler pan that cam with the oven, and use the bottom > > portion and pour 1-2 cups of boiling water in my preheated oven. i also > > spray the bread and oven just as i put the dough in. every 3-5 min is also > > spray the oven again. some ovens do a better job of steam conversion. my > > dad has a ge oven that has a left top vent, and it creates great steam. my > > oven doesn't do as good a job, but still works. my temp is usually 450 for > > 20 min and 400 for 25 min. > > Could you share why you believe steam creates a hard crust? > > I've been getting what I would call a hard crust with no steam whatever > and cold oven. Maybe my hard crust isn't relatively hard at all. i only know what the experts tell me, and what works for me. there may be other methods, but i don't know them. perhaps one of them (experts) will take pity on us and chime in dan w |
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Hard Crust
dan w wrote: > "Hans Fugal" > wrote in message > ... > > dan w wrote: > > > "jim" > wrote in message > > > ... >...... > take pity on us and chime in > > dan w HI, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't bother spraying at all, I've tried it, I've even tried the hot griddle pan and a cup of water at the bottom. Bit it doesn't seem to make much difference. I'm not saying it doesn't make any difference, just not much difference. See, the thing is about getting results from method A, unless you really test it properly, and that's not easy in a domestic kitchen who's to say that you didn't get result a from doing something else? There are loads of variables when baking. I got big improvements when I got the initial temp of the oven above 450F and got the internal temp of the crumb to between 93-97C. Sorry about the Mixed bag of temps they're just abstract numbers I se on my thermometers. : -) It's like hanging garlic bulbs at the windows to keep away the vampires, then in the morning when no vampires show saying, the garlic worked. : -) Anyway that's two penneth. In my oven that's the case. TG |
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"dan w" > wrote in message . .. > i only know what the experts tell me, and what works for me. there may be > other methods, but i don't know them. perhaps one of them (experts) will > take pity on us and chime in Well, here are some things to learn from the experts: 1. Getting the bread surface all soggy in the oven by infusing it with moisture makes the crust hard. 2. Rising the dough in the refrigerator makes the bread taste more sour. 3. A sour (tangy) starter makes the best (sourest) bread. 4. Souring a sponge for days is good, too. 5. Your mail-order dry start might take five days to revive. 6. Given enough time, the dough will knead itself sufficiently. 7. The more the dough is punched, the better the bread. This is but a partial list. I entreat the experts to send further advice to my email so that I can tabulate and publish it. I am not qualified as an expert, but I am not stupid either. Writing with capital letters, it is hoped, may enhance my credibility. -- Dicky <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com |
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Hard Crust
Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were
you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed. |
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Hard Crust
Trix wrote:
> Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were > you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you > regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed. > I would ponder Barnum's Dictum about how many what are born how often. B/ |
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does anyone with experience (forget experts), wan't to seriously reply?
dan w "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message ... > Trix wrote: > > > Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were > > you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you > > regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed. > > > I would ponder Barnum's Dictum about how many what are born how often. > > B/ |
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dan w wrote:
> does anyone with experience (forget experts), wan't to seriously > reply? OK, I believe he wasn't serious. Except maybe about the capital letters. B/ |
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Hard Crust
> Dicky Adams wrote:
"Well, here are some things to learn from the experts:" Not ANYWHERE'S near an expert , I haven't been doing this anywhere near long enough to convincingly match wits with any of the resident sourdough legends, but long enough to know allot of what Dick wrote is intentional folly. Seeing as nobody else wanted to take the bait, I offer my own responces for Mr Adam's amusement. "1. Getting the bread surface all soggy in the oven by infusing it with moisture makes the crust hard." Actually, the steam thing as far as I know helps keep the dough surface from drying out too quickly, remaining elastic a little longer hopefully enough to withstand the stretching of oven spring. It doesn't give me a hard crust, actually my crust softens a bit after baking this way, during cooling. I have read that this can be avoided by cooling in the still warm oven after baking with the door open a bit. Keeping in plastic wrap makes the crust soft, my parents loaves go in plastic bags for this reason. My own I keep unwrapped or at least in paper bags, if I want a nice hard crust. "2. Rising the dough in the refrigerator makes the bread taste more sour." Is this what people say? I fridge retard my dough for convenience, and have never ever found it to create a more sour bread. Perhaps even the opposite may be true. "3. A sour (tangy) starter makes the best (sourest) bread." I have found Carl's to be about the blandest starter so far, and yet many experts here claim to make quite sour bread with it, I believe Samartha has documented results somewhere, so I would probably say that this is false. I wouldn't know, I don't really go for sourest. "4. Souring a sponge for days is good, too." Depends what "good" you are trying to accomplish. Dick is certainly the champion of skyscraper-like loftiness in his sourdough loaves, one would be hard pressed to come anywhere close with "spent" dough. But then there can be flavors and crust/crumb textures to explore that you may find just as elusive with a "young" sponge. "5. Your mail-order dry start might take five days to revive." The only dried starter I have received in the mail was Carl's OT. It was bubbling within the first day. That is just my one experience, but I think that 5 days is a long time. More than long enough in fact, for a resident culture already present in your flour to show itself, any mail order stuff may never have surfaced at all. "6. Given enough time, the dough will knead itself sufficiently." Ah yes, the "no knead" technique. I don't know well how this works for Dicky's loaf pan breads. Seems to work for "hearth" types. Remember everything still has to get mixed together sufficiently though, and stretch and folds are down the road too. I still think it all adds up to a little kneading, just differently. "7. The more the dough is punched, the better the bread." Dick, who punches down sourdough bread anymore? If I have been here bothering everybody for a year, I haven't read a single post recommending punch downs. Perhaps you are watching Julia Child reruns on the side. Bon Appetite! hutchndi |
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Hard Crust
hutchndi wrote: > > Dicky Adams wrote: > > "Well, here are some things to learn from the experts:" > > Not ANYWHERE'S near an expert .. > Dick, who punches down sourdough bread anymore? If I have been here > bothering everybody for a year, I haven't read a single post recommending > punch downs. Perhaps you are watching Julia Child reruns on the side. Bon > Appetite! > > hutchndi Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric. TG |
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Hard Crust
Trix wrote:
> Now the big question: Do you agree with any of those things? Or, were > you being sarcastic? OR sincere? I seem to think that the methods you > regularly use are different or opposed to those which you have listed. Trix, I don't know if you changed the subject line but your post doesn't appear in the Google site with the rest of the thread. All we have is your quote from others. TG |
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I thought better of it and deleted it. I guess it got quoted just
before I deleted it. Oh well. I know that some people recommend some to the techniques listed. I also suspect, after reading his Billowy Bread recipe as well as other posts that Dickie Adams is not one that uses any of those techniques or agrees with their use. |
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TG wrote: > Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly > writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing > sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric. can nobody imagine that dicky is having fun? i enjoyed that post. to add some favorites... the importance of micro-waving starter to keep it warm. the importance of wooden utensils, particularly chopsticks. the importance of volumetric measuring with old cans. the importance of a well designed faerie shrine. the importance of margarine... will |
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Hard Crust
"Will" > wrote in message oups.com... > > TG wrote: > >> Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly >> writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing >> sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric. > > can nobody imagine that dicky is having fun? i enjoyed that post. > > to add some favorites... > > the importance of micro-waving starter to keep it warm. > > the importance of wooden utensils, particularly chopsticks. > > the importance of volumetric measuring with old cans. > > the importance of a well designed faerie shrine. > > the importance of margarine... > > will > As I pointed out at first, I saw Dicks list as folly, and surly felt he meant it as such. Now about that shrine... hutchndi |
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Hard Crust
I think it was pretty obvious that he was using his sense of humor.
I can enjoy humorous posts. Someone unfamiliar with Dicky's style may misunderstand some of his posts. Too bad we don't have emoticons on this forum. |
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Hard Crust
Will wrote:
> > the importance of micro-waving starter to keep it warm. a. tasting it for 'sourness' to determine the final taste of the bread. |
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Hard Crust
Will wrote: > TG wrote: > > > Come on Hutch, you know not to take anything seriously that old Grizzly > > writes or at least not before reversing the meaning. The only thing > > sour about Mr Adams is his rhetoric. > > can nobody imagine that dicky is having fun? i enjoyed that post. > > to add some favorites... > > the importance of micro-waving starter to keep it warm. > > the importance of wooden utensils, particularly chopsticks. > > the importance of volumetric measuring with old cans. > > the importance of a well designed faerie shrine. > > the importance of margarine... > > will Hi Will, Of course we know that Dicky is having fun. Just like the hunters in their red coats chasing a fox across the countryside 'til it can't run any more then sit and watch as the hounds rip it apart. They're having fun too. Just like the group of lads stood round the new girl at school, taunting and poking, humiliating her. They're having fun too. Just like the guys in the army who strip their prisoners bare, tie them up and beat them. They're having fun too. It's good to have fun isn't it? TG |
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We do, but somehow I doubt Dicky is the type to use them. : -(
TG Trix wrote: > I think it was pretty obvious that he was using his sense of humor. > > I can enjoy humorous posts. > > Someone unfamiliar with Dicky's style may misunderstand some of his > posts. Too bad we don't have emoticons on this forum. |
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TG wrote: > It's good to have fun isn't it? I'm right with you. Even my stand mixer has been retired from punition <g>. Will |
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Hard Crust
Will wrote: > TG wrote: > > > It's good to have fun isn't it? > > I'm right with you. Even my stand mixer has been retired from punition > <g>. > > Will lol, and I thought I might have put the cat amongst the pigeons. : -) TG |
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Will wrote: > TG wrote: > > > It's good to have fun isn't it? > > I'm right with you. Even my stand mixer has been retired from punition > <g>. > > Will lol, and I thought I might have put the cat amongst the pigeons. : -) TG |
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Hard Crust
jim wrote:
> What is the secret in getting a hard crust? Ed Replies: Last time I read this debate I believe the answer was to turn the oven off at end of baking cycle, then prop door a couple inches with an oven mitt. Let the loaf stay in the oven for quite a while. I'll make up a number, 30 minutes. I like steam for a blistery crust, but it doesn't make a crispy crust. I also find that spaying the loaves just makes a thick leathery crust which is technically tough but not hard. Ed Bechtel |
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Hard Crust
Ed Bechtel wrote: > jim wrote: > > What is the secret in getting a hard crust? > > > Ed Replies: > > Last time I read this debate I believe the answer was to turn the oven > off at end of baking cycle, then prop door a couple inches with an oven > mitt. Let the loaf stay in the oven for quite a while. I'll make up a > number, 30 minutes. > > I like steam for a blistery crust, but it doesn't make a crispy crust. > I also find that spaying the loaves just makes a thick leathery crust > which is technically tough but not hard. > > > Ed Bechtel Well, here's a pretty obvious remedy if you find your crust is not crisp enough. Put the loaf back in the oven for five - ten minutes. Turning the oven off and leaving the loaves in there for up to ten minutes with the door closed or turn the oven down to 350 helps concentrate flavour. Not sure if it helps with the crust as it's seldom a problem for me. I seem to remember if you bake to hot or too quickly the crust will be thin and so go soft quickly. I get the oven first over 450 then reduce that down a bit 400-425. I only take the loaves out of the oven when the internal temp is close to 97 C if the crust is to dark before this point you can put some foil over to protect it or turn the oven lower. But this isn't usually a problem unless you've had the temp too high for too long. Obviously don't based the crust in butter or oil. Though a little oil will help browning. The couple of times when I was too mean with the oil I barely had any browning but a very hard-brake-your-teeth-and-slash-your-lips crust. This really didn't look very appetising so I don't recommend it. By the way, asking 'Experts' to comment is a sure fired way of getting no comment at all. As it comes across as sarcastic. : -) Just my thoughts. TG |
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