As my second batch of "real" pumpernickel (à la Samartha) is starting
to get fragrant in the oven, and with another ~40 hours to go before I
can actually slice into it, I find myself wondering what would happen
if I made this recipe with all or part coarsely ground or cracked
whole wheat instead of 100% rye. Perhaps it would be a bit less dense
and gummy, but still moist and chewy? Presumably it would still
darken all the way through via Maillard reactions and take on a
complex flavor -- probably a rather different one than rye produces.
I would not, of course, dare to call such a creation "pumpernickel",
for fear of inviting the Wrath of the Teutons, so I would have to come
up with a different name.

Any thoughts?

--
Randall

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:04:02 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>I would not, of course, dare to call such a creation "pumpernickel",
>for fear of inviting the Wrath of the Teutons, so I would have to come
>up with a different name.
>
>Any thoughts?

nortmanickel...?
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 2006-01-21, Kenneth > wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:04:02 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:
>
>>I would not, of course, dare to call such a creation "pumpernickel",
>>for fear of inviting the Wrath of the Teutons, so I would have to come
>>up with a different name.
>>
>>Any thoughts?
>
> nortmanickel...?

Actually, I was asking for thoughts on the idea, not the name, but
thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping somebody can convince me not to
bother before I waste 1.3kg of wheat and 24 hours of oven time on a
stupid idea.

How about "NortmanSoft Pumpernickel XP 2006 Home Edition"?

--
Randall

On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 23:00:41 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>On 2006-01-21, Kenneth > wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Jan 2006 22:04:02 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:
>>
>>>I would not, of course, dare to call such a creation "pumpernickel",
>>>for fear of inviting the Wrath of the Teutons, so I would have to come
>>>up with a different name.
>>>
>>>Any thoughts?
>>
>> nortmanickel...?
>
>Actually, I was asking for thoughts on the idea, not the name, but
>thanks for the suggestion. I'm hoping somebody can convince me not to
>bother before I waste 1.3kg of wheat and 24 hours of oven time on a
>stupid idea.
>
>How about "NortmanSoft Pumpernickel XP 2006 Home Edition"?

Hi Randall,

I can't see a way around the 24 hours (though it is at a
relatively low temperature.

But you certainly need not "waste 1.3kg" of wheat.

Why not just try a cup of the dough and see if it produces
something interesting?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Randall Nortman wrote:

> I'm hoping somebody can convince me not to
> bother before I waste 1.3kg of wheat and 24 hours of oven time on a
> stupid idea.

Randall,

I have made "pumpernickel" with a mixed blend: rye, wheat, spelt,
barley, millet and kamut. I have made it 80% kamut, the balance rye. I
have made it pure rye. My preference is the mixed blend. I realize it
is not German standard, but the preparation follows the rules. Long
slow water bake. Long rest before eating. I think the process dominates
the grain. The bread always turns chocolate brown, tastes and smells
more like ripe fruit than bread. I figure as long as you use coarse
meal and chops, and bake very slowly for a long time you will get
something special. I used to innoculate my soaker with starter. No
longer. I let the cracked grains soak until they start fermenting on
their own. Takes 4 or 5 days. I am sure wheat or wheat with a bit of
rye would work fine.

You should bag the oven. Look into a GE 20 quart tabletop roaster.
Decent thermostat, works great for the long waterbath bake. $28 at
WalMart. Can serve as a bulk proofer too...

Will

On 2006-01-22, Will > wrote:
>
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>> I'm hoping somebody can convince me not to
>> bother before I waste 1.3kg of wheat and 24 hours of oven time on a
>> stupid idea.
>
> Randall,
>
> I have made "pumpernickel" with a mixed blend: rye, wheat, spelt,
> barley, millet and kamut. I have made it 80% kamut, the balance rye. I
> have made it pure rye. My preference is the mixed blend. I realize it
> is not German standard, but the preparation follows the rules. Long
> slow water bake. Long rest before eating. I think the process dominates
> the grain. The bread always turns chocolate brown, tastes and smells
> more like ripe fruit than bread. I figure as long as you use coarse
> meal and chops, and bake very slowly for a long time you will get
> something special. I used to innoculate my soaker with starter. No
> longer. I let the cracked grains soak until they start fermenting on
> their own. Takes 4 or 5 days. I am sure wheat or wheat with a bit of
> rye would work fine.

Excellent, I will give it a try with wheat next time a 24-hour bake
window opens up. (Ground control to Pumpernickel IV, you are go for
bake... Uh, ground control, this is Pumpernickel IV, there seem to be
some wheat berries in the cargo bay... Pumpernickel IV, this is ground
control -- ABORT! ABORT!)

Interesting that you say it smells like ripe fruit -- I find mine is
more like dried or spiced fruit, like dates and figs. Of course, I've
only done it once, so we'll see what happens this time.

> You should bag the oven. Look into a GE 20 quart tabletop roaster.
> Decent thermostat, works great for the long waterbath bake. $28 at
> WalMart. Can serve as a bulk proofer too...

Sounds like a good idea, except I have no room left in my kitchen for
such a beast, nor anywhere else in my house, really.

As for the proofer, I have another idea for that, currently awaiting
final construction. I'm using a 40qt cooler with a thermoelectric
(peltier) device that can both heat and cool, depending on which
direction electricity flows through it. I just need to rig up a
controller and I'll have a programmable proofer/retarder that can
retard dough and then automatically bring it up to proofing
temperature on whatever schedule I program, meaning it can switch to
proofing mode while I'm still in bed. I also expect it to be useful
for storing starter at, say, 50F instead of much colder refrigerator
temperatures, which I think will keep the yeast and LB quite a bit
happier, while still storing for a decent amount of time. Will post
details when the project is complete...

--
Randall

Randall Nortman wrote:

> As for the proofer, I have another idea for that, currently awaiting
> final construction. I'm using a 40qt cooler with a thermoelectric
> (peltier) device that can both heat and cool, depending on which
> direction electricity flows through it. I just need to rig up a
> controller and I'll have a programmable proofer/retarder that can
> retard dough and then automatically bring it up to proofing
> temperature on whatever schedule I program, meaning it can switch to
> proofing mode while I'm still in bed. I also expect it to be useful
> for storing starter at, say, 50F instead of much colder refrigerator
> temperatures, which I think will keep the yeast and LB quite a bit
> happier, while still storing for a decent amount of time. Will post
> details when the project is complete...

Randall,

Please do this project! This would be perfect, particularly if the
components weren't an arm and a leg. I was looking at setting up an
induction unit attached to one of these:

http://www.espressoparts.com/product/V_PXR3_PID

or (same but w/tech specs)

http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=4714

for controlling a fermenter. But the idea of being able to run hot or
cold trumps that notion big time. A lot of coffee jocks are using PID
controllers to drive espresso machines. No reason why they couldn't run
fermenter/proofing gear... This particular unit is capable of sync'ing
to a PC...
(So instead of posting bread pics you could post proof logs <g>)
Will

Randall Nortman wrote:
> I'm using a 40qt cooler with a thermoelectric
> (peltier) device that can both heat and cool, depending on which
> direction electricity flows through it. I just need to rig up a
> controller and I'll have a programmable proofer/retarder that can
> retard dough and then automatically bring it up to proofing
> temperature on whatever schedule I program, meaning it can switch to
> proofing mode while I'm still in bed. I also expect it to be useful
> for storing starter at, say, 50F instead of much colder refrigerator
> temperatures, which I think will keep the yeast and LB quite a bit
> happier, while still storing for a decent amount of time. Will post
> details when the project is complete...

Yes - please do post details! Sounds like a very cool project, and one
I'd knock together for sure. Considering how many beater PCs I have
archived (laying around, gathering dust!), I really should try it myself...

Dave

Will wrote:
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>
>>As for the proofer, I have another idea for that, currently awaiting
>>final construction. I'm using a 40qt cooler with a thermoelectric
>>(peltier) device that can both heat and cool, depending on which
>>direction electricity flows through it. I just need to rig up a
>>controller and I'll have a programmable proofer/retarder that can
>>retard dough and then automatically bring it up to proofing
>>temperature on whatever schedule I program, meaning it can switch to
>>proofing mode while I'm still in bed. I also expect it to be useful
>>for storing starter at, say, 50F instead of much colder refrigerator
>>temperatures, which I think will keep the yeast and LB quite a bit
>>happier, while still storing for a decent amount of time. Will post
>>details when the project is complete...
>
>
> Randall,
>
> Please do this project! This would be perfect, particularly if the
> components weren't an arm and a leg. I was looking at setting up an
> induction unit attached to one of these:
>
> http://www.espressoparts.com/product/V_PXR3_PID
>
> or (same but w/tech specs)
>
> http://www.ttiglobal.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=4714
>
> for controlling a fermenter. But the idea of being able to run hot or
> cold trumps that notion big time. A lot of coffee jocks are using PID
> controllers to drive espresso machines. No reason why they couldn't run
> fermenter/proofing gear... This particular unit is capable of sync'ing
> to a PC...
> (So instead of posting bread pics you could post proof logs <g>)
> Will

Hell, if you're going to link it to a PC, don't bother with an external
PID controller. A PID is great, but gross overkill for a simple temp
controller, unless you want 1 degree or better stability. Two output
bits from the printer port can control the thermoelectric cooler in an
ON/OFF mode, and reading the temp is not much more trouble. I will
say,though, that $139 is a terrific price for an industrial controller!

Dave

On 2006-01-22, Will > wrote:
>
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>> As for the proofer, I have another idea for that, currently awaiting
>> final construction. I'm using a 40qt cooler with a thermoelectric
>> (peltier) device that can both heat and cool, depending on which
>> direction electricity flows through it. I just need to rig up a
>> controller and I'll have a programmable proofer/retarder that can
>> retard dough and then automatically bring it up to proofing
>> temperature on whatever schedule I program, meaning it can switch to
>> proofing mode while I'm still in bed. I also expect it to be useful
>> for storing starter at, say, 50F instead of much colder refrigerator
>> temperatures, which I think will keep the yeast and LB quite a bit
>> happier, while still storing for a decent amount of time. Will post
>> details when the project is complete...
>
> Randall,
>
> Please do this project! This would be perfect, particularly if the
> components weren't an arm and a leg. I was looking at setting up an
> induction unit attached to one of these:
>
> http://www.espressoparts.com/product/V_PXR3_PID
[...]

Well, I haven't finished yet, but I can already describe my plan.
Initially, I had intended to get a cheap styrofoam cooler, cut a hole
in it, and install a peltier junction (purchased separately, probably
from a surplus seller) with heatsinks and fans on each side. However,
I was lucky enough to find an "Igloo KoolMate 40" on clearance at
Target, which is a much nicer solution as it has the thermoelectric
device already installed, and is a more attractive and durable cooler.
It normally sells for about $100, but this one was in a very beat up
box that had obviously been opened and re-taped, so it was only $35.
But the cooler itself is in good shape and functions perfectly.
However, it has no thermostat in it -- the thing is either full-heat
or full-cool, depending on how you plug in the cord. (It does have a
thermal cut-off switch in it that prevents it from overheating, but it
gets up to 155F, which is plenty for dough.)

So, it needs a controller. I am lucky enough to be currently in the
process of co-founding a company that builds residential climate
control systems. I've designed (and assembled/soldered a few by hand,
in a toaster oven) a little 1.75"x3.75" circuit board that has a 50MHz
ARM7 CPU and a 10/100 Ethernet interface onboard, plus a solid-state
relay (low current, bud I'd use it to drive an external relay to
switch the 5A@12VDC that the thermoelectric device draws), plus analog
inputs for 2 thermistors. (Plus some other I/O that won't be needed
in this application.) So, I'll just use a spare one of those. I
might even stick an LCD display and some buttons on the thing
eventually, but at first I'll just control it via the Ethernet
interface.

You could certainly do a decent job controlling relays from the
parallel port, as Dave mentioned, though you'll have a harder time
getting good temperature readings without some extra circuitry.
Still, it could be done pretty cheaply, if you have some
gadget-hacking experience. Alternatively, one of those industrial
controllers you mentioned could do it, though you really want
something you can program with schedules for maximum usefulness. You
might talk me into selling you one of our controllers, though I'd have
to run that by my partner.

I am a little concerned about how quickly the little peltier junction
will be able to ramp the temperature up and down. Dough has a pretty
high heat capacity, so it might be slower to change temperatures than
I'd like, especially when cooling warm dough. I'll only know after I
experiment and get some data. I could always replace the junction
with something beefier, or just cool the dough quickly in my
refrigerator and then transfer it to the proofer/retarder for holding.

The only thing missing is humidity control, but a wet towel with one
end in a jar of water should keep it pretty moist, and why would you
ever want it dry?

--
Randall

Randall Nortman wrote:

> You could certainly do a decent job controlling relays from the
> parallel port, as Dave mentioned, though you'll have a harder time
> getting good temperature readings without some extra circuitry.
> Still, it could be done pretty cheaply, if you have some
> gadget-hacking experience.

I figured an inexpensive digital temp sensor, like the Dallas/Maxim
DS18S20 would do fine. Add a second sensor (they're only about $2.50),
and you can get a wet-bulb for practically no extra effort, and at least
monitor your humidity.

Dave

Randall Nortman wrote:

> I am a little concerned about how quickly the little peltier junction
> will be able to ramp the temperature up and down. Dough has a pretty
> high heat capacity, so it might be slower to change temperatures than
> I'd like, especially when cooling warm dough. I'll only know after I
> experiment and get some data.

What wattage does your peltier element have?

You also need to consider transport of heat from/to the dough/starter
with the media "air" which may require forced air flow to move an
adequate heat volume.

What's your temperature range you want to control with which dough volume?

I've got parts from an abandoned proofing chamber project:

Thermocouples, AD595 controller with cold junction compensation, Falcon
DPM922 display.

Samartha

Randall Nortman wrote:

> You
> might talk me into selling you one of our controllers, though I'd have
> to run that by my partner.

I might try. I did a little looking around after your initial post and
came up with this:

http://www.electronickits.com/kit/co...tier/ck500.htm

This place sells interesting hobby kits and they also have plans for
things... ray guns, taser like gadgets for bad dogs and... they have a
pdf download for a peltier heater/chiller.

I'm not looking to use fans, moving air around dough, even wet air, is
bad. I'd like some thoughts on laying an aluminum sheet pan across a
couple of these peltier units though. I am using a hot pad now and
getting good results. So I'd like to keep conducting if possible. The
possibility of heating and/or cooling with the same box is quite
attractive.

On 2006-01-22, Samartha Deva > wrote:
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>> I am a little concerned about how quickly the little peltier junction
>> will be able to ramp the temperature up and down. Dough has a pretty
>> high heat capacity, so it might be slower to change temperatures than
>> I'd like, especially when cooling warm dough. I'll only know after I
>> experiment and get some data.
>
> What wattage does your peltier element have?

All I know is that the specified power draw for peltier plus fan motor
is 5A at 12VDC. That's 60W max, and we can assume that the fan motor
draws very little power (very small brushless DC fan). Of course,
that's a maximum current draw, so we're probably looking at a 40-50W
junction. Note, though, that since it operates as a heat pump, a 40W
peltier should heat up much faster than, say, a 40W light bulb.

> You also need to consider transport of heat from/to the dough/starter
> with the media "air" which may require forced air flow to move an
> adequate heat volume.

The cooler has a fan motor which turns two blowers at once -- one on
the outside of the unit and one on the inside. Each pulls air over a
heatsink connected to the peltier junction.

> What's your temperature range you want to control with which dough volume?

I figure starter storage at 45-50F, retarding down to 55F, proofing up
to 90F, but I may want to initially pull the air temp below/above
where I want the dough to be, in order to get it there faster. To do
this properly would require either a probe in the middle of the dough,
or a complete model of heat conduction through the dough, including
the exact volume and surface area of the dough. I'm not going to do
it properly (except maybe with the probe in the center, but that's
only useful for bulk fermentation; I don't want to stick something
into a formed loaf).

I usually make batches of about 1700kg dough, usually divided into two
loaves, but it varies. My doughs are usually quite wet, which should
help with thermal conduction.

--
Randall

Randall Nortman wrote:

> I usually make batches of about 1700kg dough, usually divided into two
> loaves, but it varies.

Do you need a sling and crane to lift something so massive? Would look
like that poor whale they lifted over the weekend....

B/

On 2006-01-23, Brian Mailman > wrote:
> Randall Nortman wrote:
>
>> I usually make batches of about 1700kg dough, usually divided into two
>> loaves, but it varies.
>
> Do you need a sling and crane to lift something so massive? Would look
> like that poor whale they lifted over the weekend....

Er, yeah, good eye. That would be 1700g dough, of course, or 1.7kg.

--
Randall

Will wrote:
>
> You should bag the oven. Look into a GE 20 quart tabletop roaster.
> Decent thermostat, works great for the long waterbath bake. $28 at
> WalMart. Can serve as a bulk proofer too...


Oh, PLEASE tell me where I can find instructions on how to use my
roaster as a proofer....