Hello, members of the group.

Nice to see so active group on the subject. I am a beginner sourdough
enthusiast . I am experimenting and searching for as much information
I can find and this group is an excellent source.

I have some questions (well... I have a lot ), but I will post them
one by one. I will gladly accept references to sources of info that I
might have missed, including in this group.

I would like to ask what exactly the alcoholic smell of the culture
means? Is it a evidence of the yeast only, but not necessary LB? I
mean when I am starting a culture from scratch (mostly from whole rye)
I get alcoholic smell pretty quickly, but I still haven't got very
active culture like I see is described in many places... I mean all
that thick foam and many bubbles that should be. So I am thinking how I
can know that I have the right symbiotic relationship established. Does
alcoholic smell is enough?


Many thanks.

"VVizard" > wrote in message oups.com...

> [ ... ]

> I get alcoholic smell pretty quickly, but I still haven't got very
> active culture like I see is described in many places... I mean all
> that thick foam and many bubbles that should be. So I am thinking how I
> can know that I have the right symbiotic relationship established. Does
> alcoholic smell is enough?

One possibility is to start with a known and trusted culture. After that,
you know how a culture should behave. Then you are smarter than this
perpetual fringe of startermuckers, and you move on to bread making.

--
Dicky

VVizard wrote:
[...]
>
> I would like to ask what exactly the alcoholic smell of the culture
> means? Is it a evidence of the yeast only, but not necessary LB?

No, LB's produce alcohol as well. What it means is that "something" is
working. I'd see it as a good sign and play some more.

> I
> mean when I am starting a culture from scratch (mostly from whole rye)
> I get alcoholic smell pretty quickly, but I still haven't got very
> active culture like I see is described in many places... I mean all
> that thick foam and many bubbles that should be.

You may have a certain idea how things "should" be but isn't this idea
preventing you from seeing other possibilities?

If you have an overall boring white flour starter, think that's how it
"should" be and then come across something different, you may think that
is wrong because it smells fruity, alcoholic, maybe with acetonic
tendency, and you freak out.

> So I am thinking how I
> can know that I have the right symbiotic relationship established.

How would you recognize a "right" symbiotic relationship other than by
making bread and seeing the result?

> Does
> alcoholic smell is enough?

No, getting the final result - bread - should do the trick better.

Samartha

Hi. Thanks for the replies.

Well, of course, I do bread The problem is that I have so little
experience (also tasting real sourdough) that I can't be sure... The
last two times it finally came out something I can call 'good'. I
mean the bread had a character rich taste and nice texture... so I
am probably in the right direction. I am playing around with many
variables so I can't tell right away what went wrong or what was
right. To your question why I am doing this that way, because I am
doing it for fun and don't want to make it science experiment

Are there some properties of starter that can only appear after long
time of feeding... I mean, is it should become livelier only with time?
Months? Right now I start a new one every couple weeks... just to see
what happens if you start it differently.

What is hooch exactly? Is it bad or good?


Thanks.

On 15 Jan 2006 14:57:21 -0800, "VVizard"
> wrote:

>What is hooch exactly? Is it bad or good?

Howdy,

Hooch is the liquid that sometimes forms at the top of a
stored starter.

Its formation indicates that the starter has not been fed
sufficiently.

Its appearance signals the start of the process of
deterioration of the starter caused by "starvation."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi Samartha & all;

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in
message
news:mailman.1137250326.347.rec.food.sourdough@www .mountainbitwarrior.com...
....
>> I would like to ask what exactly the alcoholic smell of the
>> culture
>> means? Is it a evidence of the yeast only, but not necessary LB?
>
> No, LB's produce alcohol as well. What it means is that
> "something" is
Samartha, can you point me to something that substantiates that?
LB's making ethanol seems to contradict what I thought I knew...

> working. I'd see it as a good sign and play some more.
Yep. Agreed!

....
> If you have an overall boring white flour starter, think that's
> how it "should" be and then come across something different, you
> may think that is wrong because it smells fruity, alcoholic, maybe
> with acetonic tendency, and you freak out.
BTDT! (:-o)!

>> So I am thinking how I
>> can know that I have the right symbiotic relationship
>> established.
>
> How would you recognize a "right" symbiotic relationship other
> than by making bread and seeing the result?
Spot-on!


L8r all,
Dusty
....

Dusty Bleher wrote:
> Hi Samartha & all;
>
> "Samartha Deva" > wrote in
> message
> news:mailman.1137250326.347.rec.food.sourdough@www .mountainbitwarrior.com...
> ...
>>> I would like to ask what exactly the alcoholic smell of the
>>> culture
>>> means? Is it a evidence of the yeast only, but not necessary LB?
>> No, LB's produce alcohol as well. What it means is that
>> "something" is
> Samartha, can you point me to something that substantiates that?
> LB's making ethanol seems to contradict what I thought I knew...

Heterofermentatives LB's do, when they metabolize Maltose or Glucose.

In my wise sourdough bible, I find this summary:

C6H12O6 (Glucose)
-> CH3-CHOH-COOH (lactic acid)
+ CH3COOH/CH3 - CH2OH (acetic acid/ethanol)
+ CO2 (carbondioxide)


Seems when they produce acetic acid, they can get more ATP but if they
produce and what the ratios of lactic acid/acetic acid seems to depend
on process factors - availability of electron acceptors (oxygen,
fructose, malic acid, citrate..).

So, here is another knob to turn: electron acceptors.

What do we have besides bread fairies:

starter culture,
hydration,
temperature,
time,
flour type

and now the electron acceptors. If they are present, acetic acid (and
alcohol) is produced, as they are used up, lactic acid production
overtakes acetic acid production.

Simplified for the home baker: Stir your starter and whip your dough,
you'll get more acetic acid and alcohol.

- almost rhymes.. well, not really.

Take care,

Samartha

Hello Samartha & all;

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in
message
news:mailman.1137647589.31603.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
....
>> Samartha, can you point me to something that substantiates that?
>> LB's making ethanol seems to contradict what I thought I knew...
>
> Heterofermentatives LB's do, when they metabolize Maltose or
> Glucose.
>
> In my wise sourdough bible, I find this summary:
>
> C6H12O6 (Glucose) -> CH3-CHOH-COOH (lactic acid)
> + CH3COOH/CH3 - CH2OH (acetic acid/ethanol)
> + CO2 (carbondioxide)
That certainly looks correct. But methinks that's the combined
cycle: yeasts+LB's.

I went through all of my MB books, and couldn't find any mention
that LB's could manufacture ethanol. They make lotsa different
stuff, to be sure. But I've never heard of them making alcohol...

> Seems when they produce acetic acid, they can get more ATP but if
> they produce and what the ratios of lactic acid/acetic acid seems
> to depend on process factors - availability of electron acceptors
> (oxygen, fructose, malic acid, citrate..).
Yep. Found some mention about that as well.

> So, here is another knob to turn: electron acceptors.

> What do we have besides bread fairies:

>
> starter culture,
> hydration,
> temperature,
> time,
> flour type
>
> and now the electron acceptors. If they are present, acetic acid
> (and alcohol) is produced, as they are used up, lactic acid
> production overtakes acetic acid production.

Damn it, Samarth! Now, along with the high-precision digital
scales, pH meters, digital temp gauges, and atomic clocks to obtain
suitable periodic references for final proofing time...now I'm gonna
hafta catalog and deal with "electron acceptors" as well? (:-o)!

I think I prefer "Dicky's" faeries...they're simpler...(:-{})!

> Simplified for the home baker: Stir your starter and whip your
> dough, you'll get more acetic acid and alcohol.
Hmmmm...interesting tip. I'm gonna hafta try that one out...

> - almost rhymes.. well, not really.
>
> Take care,
And you as well.

Dusty
....

Dusty Bleher wrote:
> Hello Samartha & all;
>
> "Samartha Deva" > wrote in
> message
>
news:mailman.1137647589.31603.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> ...
>>> Samartha, can you point me to something that substantiates that?
>>> LB's making ethanol seems to contradict what I thought I knew...
>>
>> Heterofermentatives LB's do, when they metabolize Maltose or
>> Glucose.
>>
>> In my wise sourdough bible, I find this summary:
>>
>> C6H12O6 (Glucose) -> CH3-CHOH-COOH (lactic acid)
>> + CH3COOH/CH3 - CH2OH (acetic acid/ethanol)
>> + CO2 (carbondioxide)
> That certainly looks correct. But methinks that's the combined
> cycle: yeasts+LB's.
>
> I went through all of my MB books, and couldn't find any mention
> that LB's could manufacture ethanol. They make lotsa different
> stuff, to be sure. But I've never heard of them making alcohol...

Well, some of them LB's is moonshiners, then!

Sorry. I'm from the part of the South where people once used their yeast for
other purposes.

Dusty Bleher wrote:

> "Samartha Deva" > wrote in
[...]
>> In my wise sourdough bible, I find this summary:
>>
>> C6H12O6 (Glucose) -> CH3-CHOH-COOH (lactic acid)
>> + CH3COOH/CH3 - CH2OH (acetic acid/ethanol)
>> + CO2 (carbondioxide)

> That certainly looks correct. But methinks that's the combined
> cycle: yeasts+LB's.

That's fine with me. Freedom of thought (still possible within limits as
long as ...).

The only thing is that the summary above is from what's happening inside
the bacteria's cell membrane.

How a yeast cell would get under the skin of a LB would probably need
the adoption of a miracle thought model. How was that? Strong believe
does everything.

> I went through all of my MB books, and couldn't find any mention
> that LB's could manufacture ethanol. They make lotsa different
> stuff, to be sure. But I've never heard of them making alcohol...

Probably not the right books. Seems the Germans are deeper into
sourdough than elsewhere in some corners.

>> Seems when they produce acetic acid, they can get more ATP but if
>> they produce and what the ratios of lactic acid/acetic acid seems
>> to depend on process factors - availability of electron acceptors
>> (oxygen, fructose, malic acid, citrate..).
> Yep. Found some mention about that as well.

Well, isn't this great! Some common ground at least somewhere.

>> So, here is another knob to turn: electron acceptors.
>
>> What do we have besides bread fairies:
>
>> starter culture,
>> hydration,
>> temperature,
>> time,
>> flour type
>>
>> and now the electron acceptors. If they are present, acetic acid
>> (and alcohol) is produced, as they are used up, lactic acid
>> production overtakes acetic acid production.
>
> Damn it, Samarth! Now, along with the high-precision digital
> scales, pH meters, digital temp gauges, and atomic clocks to obtain
> suitable periodic references for final proofing time...now I'm gonna
> hafta catalog and deal with "electron acceptors" as well? (:-o)!

I am not advocation this - you asked!

Samartha