howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you about an
experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for about a year
now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the lack of
sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of things to get
the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and longer proof
times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.

so I spent some time researching souring my sd.. mike avery has a very nice
page with helpful suggestions he http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sour.html
So using some of the tips i gleaned, i went to work.

i first wanted to know if cooling the final dough had any major effect on
sour and overall taste, and also wanted to know how using my mixer (ka pro
5) compared to using the no mix method. since I have two active, and I think
stable starters, i decided to make four loaves at once. one from each
starter would be proofed and risen the same day, and the other two would be
identical except after dough stage, they would go in the refer 36 hrs.

my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro water // wait
for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro water //
wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt // add 1 c ww flour and
1 c ap flour // mix by hand and do 4 folds 45 min each or mix by dough hook
approx 4 min speed 2. form loaf, rise and bake at 450° 25 min and 400° 15
min, int temp 190°.

as a result of baking these loaves i made the following changes in the
recipe: salt from 3 tsp to 2 tsp // final flour mixture- 3/4 c ww flour and
1 c ap flour // oven temp 425° for 40 min.

loaves #1 and #2 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/bread12.jpg

these were the two i did without refer time. #1 i mixed by mixer and #2 by
no mix method. loaf #1
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read1crumb.jpg was shaped
into a batard style and had very little oven spring, dense crumb, heavy
crust, and nice sour. loaf #2 i did 45 min between folds, 4 folds, shaped
into boule. it had great oven spring, med chewy crumb , med crust and more
sour than #1, with better balance of flavors.

loaves #3 and #4 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/Bread34.jpg

both doughs were put in fere for 36 hours to ripen and taken out and allowed
to sit 2 hrs, shaped and allowed to rise additional 2 hrs. loaf #3
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read3crumb.jpg
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...372/Bread3.jpg was shaped into a
long french style loaf and did not hold shape very well. on baking- not much
oven spring, chewy crust, med sour, with better overall flavor than #1 and
#2. loaf #4 http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read4crumb.jpg -
i reformed after allowing to sit on counter for total of 4 hrs, after
reforming, i allowed to rise for additional hr, slashed and baked. result
was good sour taste, wheat very noticeable, dense crumb with chewy and nice
flavor holes, med-light crust, nice oven spring.

conclusion- biggest effect on sour seemed to be making the starter a smaller
portion of the recipe. formerly i used 1 c starter to begin same recipe.
there is a better balance of flavors when it sits in the refer. future
experiments i will try to determine the best refer time for my starters.
using ww flour also helped to get a better taste, as both of my starters are
ap flour base. also using the no mix method had a superior effect on the
final bread, larger holes and better crumb structure, although I will have
to adjust to working with higher hydration dough. my general reference for
determining a good sd bread is san francisco sd bread.

question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?

in taking pictures in my kitchen, I also found this interesting one
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1121372/breadfairy5(2).jpg

dan w

Well done, Dan! Although I had to diagram your sequences in order
to follow them...(:-o)!

I'm going to ponder your steps and see how they line up to what I've
been doing (and what I could change), to see if I can come up with
something similar. As I too, have been making great looking bread.
But only my Rye comes out a bit sour, not my "plain" SF SD. So I'm
also looking for "improvements"...

Dusty

"dan w" > wrote in message
. ..
> howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you
> about an
> experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for
> about a year
> now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the
> lack of
> sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of
> things to get
> the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and
> longer proof
> times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.
....

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
> Well done, Dan! Although I had to diagram your sequences in order
> to follow them...(:-o)!
>
> I'm going to ponder your steps and see how they line up to what I've
> been doing (and what I could change), to see if I can come up with
> something similar.

thx dusty. i would be very interested in what you come up with.

dan w

I am so glad for your post. I have been attempting the opposite;
trying to keep the bread from being too sour so my family will begin
eating it. I tried making my bread yesterday with 1/2 fresh ground
wheat and 1/2 UB AP flour. I let it rise once instead of twice and the
bread turned out the BEST ever for me. So I think I have an easy one
day bread recipe that I can live with but enough time that the wheat
loses most of the phytic acids.

If I had used whole wheat in the starter, it would have created a bread
too sour for me, so I add the whole wheat during the day when I feed my
'sponge' every few hours until it is dough making time. That way the
wheat has about 6 or 8 hours to stay in the sponge or dough before
baking.

Thanks.

dan w wrote:

> question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
> certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?

Dan,

A while back Kenneth kindly sent me a sample of the Acme starter. My
first couple of trials produced what I would call "traditional" S.F.
flavor. But once I put the starter in my regular rotation, and it got
used once every two weeks, instead of every day, it began to produce
milder levain style breads... like the rest of my starters.

I speculate that starters find their own equilibrium based on use.
Starters used 24/7, as you'd expect in a production bakery, can hold a
stronger LB side. The occasional use, as in once a week, followed by
refrigerator storage, tend to yeastiness, I think.

My solution was to buy a $4.95 1.5 liter crockpot with low/high/warm
settings at Walmart and attach it to a light on-off timer system ($5).
I drilled a small hole in the plastic lid (don't get a glass lid model)
to insert a thermometer. With modest trialing, I could cycle the warm
setting on and off to generate a stable 90 degree water bath (or 80
degrees for an in-the-crock-pot-sponge). I moved from a two stage
refreshment practice to three over a 24 hour period. So a walnut sized
chunk of firm starter becomes a softball sized piece of very soft (wet)
dough. Then I picked up my standard build and retard routines. So...
step one is a warmer, more active refreshment. Get a look a Samartha's
detmold notes, this is basically a *******ized setup of his aquarium
system.

Next, I bought a Rubbermaid plastic box (another $4) and a small
heating pad ($15). After the build and 24 hour retard, I began warm
proofing the bread. The heating pad works really well since it doesn't
heat the air. It warms the baskets or cloches directly. I also took a
page from DickA's playbook and added a damp sponge to the box to
increase moisture. So... step two is a forced proof. By-the-by, that
light timer can cycle the heating pad for scheduling flexibility.

Result... the Acme returned to S.F. status. There is a bit more clutter
to deal with, but overall not more work. I find I am liking the forced
radiant proof. I should have gotten off my lazy duff and done this a
while back.

Will

BigJohn wrote:

>
> ... That way the
> wheat has about 6 or 8 hours to stay in the sponge or dough before
> baking.
>

Once upon a time I experimented briefly with soaking the Whole Wheat
portion of the flour with water overnight. No starter, just the water
and flour. I thought I got improved flavor and lighter bread. You
might want to give something like that a try if you are in the mood to
experiment.

Regards,

Charles

Hello Dan & all;

Okay, been readin' & ponderin'...

"dan w" > wrote in message
. ..
....
> now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the
> lack of
> sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of
> things to get
As have I.

....
> so I spent some time researching souring my sd.. mike avery has a
> very nice
> page with helpful suggestions he
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/sour.html
Yes he does. Also, Samarth has some excellent pages. Both are well
worth the time to browse.

....
> i first wanted to know if cooling the final dough had any major
> effect on
> sour and overall taste, and also wanted to know how using my mixer
> (ka pro
Yep. That's been a point of interest for me as well. I've read all
of the recommendations often posted here for those "retarded" rises
and how they help to sour the bread. I've tried them. And I never
got the results I was told to expect. In fact, it makes less sense.
Cuz, IIRC; the LB's are more active at a warmer temperature than the
yeasts. While cooling should retard the activity of the yeasts, it
would seem to me that the LB's would be even further retarded. So
it just didn't add up.

Please note; I'm not saying the "retarding" concept has no merit.
Only that in *my* experience, using *my* methods, and *my* starter;
it's been a dismal failure (at least so far). And if I have to
change anything in one or more of those variables, I will.

> 5) compared to using the no mix method. since I have two active,
> and I think
> stable starters, i decided to make four loaves at once. one from
> each
> starter would be proofed and risen the same day, and the other two
> would be
> identical except after dough stage, they would go in the refer 36
> hrs.
Wow! 36 hours! Did the dough rise much in the fridge? When you
took it out, did you notice any different or distinguishing aromas?

> my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro
> water // wait
> for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro
> water //
> wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt // add 1 c ww
> flour and
> 1 c ap flour // mix by hand and do 4 folds 45 min each or mix by
> dough hook
> approx 4 min speed 2. form loaf, rise and bake at 450° 25 min and
> 400° 15
> min, int temp 190°.
Yep. Sounds pretty straight-forward...

> as a result of baking these loaves i made the following changes in
> the
> recipe: salt from 3 tsp to 2 tsp // final flour mixture- 3/4 c ww
> flour and
3-tsp to 2-tsp? Why? What was your cue?

> 1 c ap flour // oven temp 425° for 40 min.
>
> loaves #1 and #2
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/bread12.jpg
>
> these were the two i did without refer time. #1 i mixed by mixer
> and #2 by
> no mix method. loaf #1
Wow! Your results were far more dramatic than my own. While I've
always gotten good loft--equal to or better than from mixing--since
I changed to "no-mixer", I can't say I got as much as you did. Good
job!

> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read1crumb.jpg was
> shaped
....
> loaves #3 and #4
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...72/Bread34.jpg
....
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read3crumb.jpg
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...372/Bread3.jpg was
> shaped into a
....
> #2. loaf #4
> http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-...read4crumb.jpg -
Good pix!

....
> reforming, i allowed to rise for additional hr, slashed and baked.
> result
> was good sour taste, wheat very noticeable, dense crumb with chewy
> and nice
> flavor holes, med-light crust, nice oven spring.
>
> conclusion- biggest effect on sour seemed to be making the starter
> a smaller
> portion of the recipe. formerly i used 1 c starter to begin same
> recipe.
A most interesting point. Given that this would most effect the
"working" time of the dough, that point certainly has legs...

> there is a better balance of flavors when it sits in the refer.
> future
> experiments i will try to determine the best refer time for my
> starters.
> using ww flour also helped to get a better taste, as both of my
> starters are
> ap flour base. also using the no mix method had a superior effect
> on the
Did you use "Stretch&Fold" or "Flatten&Fold"?

> final bread, larger holes and better crumb structure, although I
> will have
> to adjust to working with higher hydration dough. my general
> reference for
> determining a good sd bread is san francisco sd bread.
10-4 that!

> question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste
> with a
> certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?
Not yet. That's why I've been devouring your words on that
subject...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty

thx will for the details. much to my chagrin, i must admit that now that i
have gotten past the stage of making good looking bread and getting the
crust and crumb as i want it, it has become more evident that to attain the
consistant sour flavor and balance that i am looking for, i must pay more
attention to temp and proof times. this goes against my baking "by feel"
theory. i still believe that for a new baker, it is more helpful to know
what the the sponge and dough should look and feel like, but now i think to
get where i want to be i must get more technical so i thank you for
giving me some more techie info and will give it consideration. however my
goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no mixing
or any other devices, except possibly a refer.

dan w
"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> dan w wrote:
>
> > question- has anyone else had good success getting sf style taste with a
> > certain method? grain type, proof time or temp, etc?
>
> Dan,
>
> A while back Kenneth kindly sent me a sample of the Acme starter. My
> first couple of trials produced what I would call "traditional" S.F.
> flavor. But once I put the starter in my regular rotation, and it got
> used once every two weeks, instead of every day, it began to produce
> milder levain style breads... like the rest of my starters.
>
> I speculate that starters find their own equilibrium based on use.
> Starters used 24/7, as you'd expect in a production bakery, can hold a
> stronger LB side. The occasional use, as in once a week, followed by
> refrigerator storage, tend to yeastiness, I think.
>
> My solution was to buy a $4.95 1.5 liter crockpot with low/high/warm
> settings at Walmart and attach it to a light on-off timer system ($5).
> I drilled a small hole in the plastic lid (don't get a glass lid model)
> to insert a thermometer. With modest trialing, I could cycle the warm
> setting on and off to generate a stable 90 degree water bath (or 80
> degrees for an in-the-crock-pot-sponge). I moved from a two stage
> refreshment practice to three over a 24 hour period. So a walnut sized
> chunk of firm starter becomes a softball sized piece of very soft (wet)
> dough. Then I picked up my standard build and retard routines. So...
> step one is a warmer, more active refreshment. Get a look a Samartha's
> detmold notes, this is basically a *******ized setup of his aquarium
> system.
>
> Next, I bought a Rubbermaid plastic box (another $4) and a small
> heating pad ($15). After the build and 24 hour retard, I began warm
> proofing the bread. The heating pad works really well since it doesn't
> heat the air. It warms the baskets or cloches directly. I also took a
> page from DickA's playbook and added a damp sponge to the box to
> increase moisture. So... step two is a forced proof. By-the-by, that
> light timer can cycle the heating pad for scheduling flexibility.
>
> Result... the Acme returned to S.F. status. There is a bit more clutter
> to deal with, but overall not more work. I find I am liking the forced
> radiant proof. I should have gotten off my lazy duff and done this a
> while back.
>
> Will
>

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
> Hello Dan & all;
>
> Okay, been readin' & ponderin'...
>
> Wow! 36 hours! Did the dough rise much in the fridge? When you
> took it out, did you notice any different or distinguishing aromas?

it rose approx 50%, i think, however i didn't especially look for how much
it rose at the time. i will track next time. i did not really check for a
particular smell either, but will try to remember to do so in the future.

> Did you use "Stretch&Fold" or "Flatten&Fold"?

i used what you probably would call Flatten&Fold. as to using this method,
which i really like(thx mike), the dough tends to allow for much higher
hydration, thus at least for me, better crumb. the only drawback has been
that forming is more difficult. for my round loaves i have resorted to
using a cheescake pan siding to give strength during final rising. i simply
spray oil on the inside and put it in with the bread during bake for about
20 min and then remove. results he
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1549611

dan w

dan w wrote:
> however my
> goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no mixing
> or any other devices, except possibly a refer.

Hey Dan... I understand that sentiment. I fought building the proofer
and resisted figuring out the crockpot waterbath starter. I kept
thinking, let the dough adjust to the conditions... go with it, keep it
simple.

Except now that I've crossed the control freak line, I am eating
really, really, good bread. It's another level. About $30 separates you
from enlightenment.

Will

i had no idea that enlightenment was so inexpensive i'm sure with more
gentle nudging, it will eventually end up in the "control freak" side, but i
continue to hope for a simpler solution.

dan w

"Will" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> dan w wrote:
> > however my
> > goal remains to make a sf style sd bread that requires little or no
mixing
> > or any other devices, except possibly a refer.
>
> Hey Dan... I understand that sentiment. I fought building the proofer
> and resisted figuring out the crockpot waterbath starter. I kept
> thinking, let the dough adjust to the conditions... go with it, keep it
> simple.
>
> Except now that I've crossed the control freak line, I am eating
> really, really, good bread. It's another level. About $30 separates you
> from enlightenment.
>
> Will
>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2005 18:32:51 -0800, "dan w"
> wrote:

>i had no idea that enlightenment was so inexpensive i'm sure with more
>gentle nudging, it will eventually end up in the "control freak" side, but i
>continue to hope for a simpler solution.
>
>dan w

Hi Dan,

I agree with Will on this issue...

Of course, good bread can be made simply, (but there will be
a lack of predictability.)

Great bread, well, that seems to take a bit more effort of
control.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

dan w wrote:
> howdy all. i finally decided to come out of lurk mode and tell you about an
> experiment i have been wanting to try. i have been baking for about a year
> now, almost exclusively sd, and i have been disappointed with the lack of
> sour taste in my bread. in the past i have tried a number of things to get
> the sour the way i personally want it, such as refer time, and longer proof
> times, all to my continuing dissatisfaction.

Here another experiment is brought that could help understanding SD
sour taste development.

"Influence and Interactions of Processing Conditions and Starter
Culture
on Formation of Acids, Volatile Compounds and Amino Acids in Wheat
Sourdoughs"
Katina Kati, Poutanen Kaisa, Autio Karin

http://199.86.26.71/cerealchemistry/...4/0728-02R.pdf

I personally liked much the following lines:

"Wheat sourdough has a strong acidic flavor which is not appreciated by
consumers in most countries. Extensive acidity formation thus limits
the amount of sourdough that
can be used in the actual bread dough and may cause bitter bread flavor
(Salovaara and Valjakka 1987; Meignen et al 2001)."

and

"Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and yeast used in these studies were
Lactobacillus plantarum VTT E 78076, L. brevis VTT E 95612, and
Saccharomyces cerevisiaey VTT B81047. Selected strains originated from
Finnish rye sourdoughs."

I.e., not LB SF and not Candida millery.

Leonid

hofer wrote:

> I personally liked much the following lines:
>
> "Wheat sourdough has a strong acidic flavor which is not appreciated by
> consumers in most countries.
>

I have always argued that "sour" is a taste, akin to salty, bitter,
sweet, and possibly meaty. whereas flavor is the aggregation of the more
complex and sophisticated aromatic flavors such as nutty and wheaty
combined with the basic tastes. A popular fixation on "sour" misses the
whole point of good bread flavor.

This can be compared to music where the base line rhythum is like the
basic tastes, however the melody is where the real and sophisticated
action is going on. Primitives, of course, focus on the rhythums, or in
this case, sour taste.

>
>
> ... I.e., not LB SF and not Candida millery.
>

One has to at least allow for the possibility that LB SF and Candida
millery are modern myths. Honestly, don't you think that san franciscus
and millery are names that are just a little too cute? Certainly
Lactobacillus and yeast exist, but obviously LB SF and Candida millery
are made up names.

Made up modern names in an old language could be just a ploy to lend a
mantle of reality to a figment of somebodys imagination. After all it
is only in the last decade or so that there is any mention of these
creatures. Contrast this to the case of the Bread Faeries. The wee folk
are mentioned in the Old Celtic language that predates Latin by some
years. They have been known for thousands of years, not just decades.

Perhaps the modern world demands that we invent cute modern names for
the ancient creatures that raise the bread. Can you imagine Megan
O'Malty or Bridget Browning? Of course they would have to be translated
into Old Celtic to give them gravitas. I am not going to risk messing
with them, but a braver person might.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:

> A popular fixation on "sour" misses the
> whole point of good bread flavor.

I agree.

My sense was that Dan, the original poster for this thread, wasn't
looking for sour as much as he was looking for robust.

I would like to think that flavor comes from simple technique, done
well. But like Kenneth, I have come to believe it takes a more
considered approach, that temperature and hydration must be modulated.
Taken one more step, this suggests a different paradigm than
simplicity. It suggests bread that is more expressive of the baker and
less of the materials.

Leonid's pdf was interesting, especially the ash aspects. It tells me
there is room to work on blending flours.

Now somewhere in all of this, the faeries keep coming up. My kitchen
hasn't got any, my wife is Irish and she told me so. What's up with
that?

Will

"Will" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Charles Perry wrote:
>
> > A popular fixation on "sour" misses the
> > whole point of good bread flavor.
>
> I agree.
>
> My sense was that Dan, the original poster for this thread, wasn't
> looking for sour as much as he was looking for robust.

actually the flavor i am looking to reproduce is san francisco style sd.
describing it in words is difficult for me, as it seems everyone has a
different reference point for the actual flavor. one of the predominate
qualities is a type of sour. my bread looks good and has great texture, yet
lacks the basic sour that i associate with sd. the sour then is step one,
the next step is fuller flavor development and then consistent reproduction
of a method (simple as possible) that will be a balance of the above. the
basic motivation here is that my wife likes non-sour (sweet?) bread and i
prefer the opposite, so i need to be able to do both.

On 21 Dec 2005 08:57:38 -0800, "Will"
> wrote:

>But like Kenneth, I have come to believe it takes a more
>considered approach, that temperature and hydration must be modulated.
>Taken one more step, this suggests a different paradigm than
>simplicity. It suggests bread that is more expressive of the baker and
>less of the materials.

Hi Will,

Sometimes (here and elsewhere) care and reproducibility are
confused with complexity.

Too often I've seen folks who bake something that they like
(and, to me, that is really all that counts) but then cannot
reproduce it.

Ah, if only they had jotted down the specifics...<g>

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Will wrote:

> I would like to think that flavor comes from simple technique, done
> well. But like Kenneth, I have come to believe it takes a more
> considered approach, that temperature and hydration must be modulated.
> Taken one more step, this suggests a different paradigm than
> simplicity. It suggests bread that is more expressive of the baker and
> less of the materials.

Making good sourdough bread is simple. It is only when we try to bend
the process to our will that the real difficulties emerge. It is not
only that the things that we think we know may or may not be true, it is
also what we don't know that we don't know that can get in the way.
>
>
> Now somewhere in all of this, the faeries keep coming up. My kitchen
> hasn't got any, my wife is Irish and she told me so. What's up with
> that?
>

Aposty abounds. What can I say? Take comfort in the fact that if your
bread is raising, they are there. Once you have observed the sunrise,
you can argue its nature, but not reasonably its existance.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:

> Making good sourdough bread is simple. It is only when we try to bend
> the process to our will that the real difficulties emerge. It is not
> only that the things that we think we know may or may not be true, it is
> also what we don't know that we don't know that can get in the way.

Will writes...

Making good bread might be simple for you Charles. God Bless. But for
me it has been hard.

It was hard to leave that 450 watt KA mixer. Watching the big hook
thump the muck around provided assurance: the dough was kneaded, the
gluten provided for.

It was hard to believe that hand folding and shaping would be so
significant.

Harder still to learn those bench mysteries. How many loaves must be
scaled before one can eye ball volume? How many folded before one
realizes the salt is just so and the water right?

I mean I've had a time of it.

It is true that what I don't know often gets in the way. And it's
embarassing when I don't know that I don't know. Take the proofing box
for instance. I was sure that adding a box and a heating pad was silly.


Will

> Will writes...
>
> Making good bread might be simple .... for
> me it has been hard.

I did not start out with simple. It was a long hard road to get to
simple. I really wanted science and its tools to be the answer. I
failed until I overcame what I knew and found my Grandmothers advice
still lurking in my memory.
>
>
> Harder still to learn those bench mysteries. How many loaves must be
> scaled before one can eye ball volume?

It can't be done. I once had a great head baker when I was working in
food service. He made the same kinds of breads every working day for a
quater century. He still would put every third lump of dough on an
actual scale or he would drift in the weight. What can be done is
realise that, if you are baking for yourself, it doesn't really matter
if one loaf is bigger than the other.
>
>
> Take the proofing box for instance. I was sure that adding a box and a heating pad was silly.
>

If you are working with rye, or you are on a tight schedule, or you need
consistant, repeatable results, temperature control can be valuable. If
you can live with variable process times and end results, temperature
control is not needed. There were no electric proofing boxes on the
goldrush or Oregon trails. What I discovered is that even when I miss
the mark in my head, others probably think the bread is great.

Regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote:

> If you are working with rye, or you are on a tight schedule, or you need
> consistant, repeatable results, temperature control can be valuable. If
> you can live with variable process times and end results, temperature
> control is not needed. There were no electric proofing boxes on the
> goldrush or Oregon trails. What I discovered is that even when I miss
> the mark in my head, others probably think the bread is great.

Charles,

I am glad, and not at all surprised, to see that we agree that the road
to simplicity is challenging.
I meant what I said about the KA mixer. Leaving it was hard. And like
your baker, I will never scale with precision. I am sure his folding
and shaping put mine to shame.

But on the matter of the proof box I disagree. It's not used for time
or consistency. It's about flavor and crumb structure. Oregan Trail is
irrelevant. We are not seeking gold, we are seeking great bread. What
impresses me, and what I'd like Dan to consider, is that heat has as
much to offer flavor as cold, that rebalancing starter after storage
and counterpointing a long cool retard generates flavor.

When I miss the mark, I know. What others think is merely gratifying.

Will

On Thu, 22 Dec 2005 00:05:06 GMT, Charles Perry
> wrote:

>There were no electric proofing boxes on the
>goldrush or Oregon trails.

Hi Charles,

Of course that is true, but I want to make bread far better
than what the original "Sourdoughs" ate. Let's remember that
many of them starved <g>.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 21 Dec 2005 17:12:49 -0800, "Will"
> wrote:

>
>
>
>But on the matter of the proof box I disagree. It's not used for time
>or consistency. It's about flavor and crumb structure. Oregan Trail is
>irrelevant. We are not seeking gold, we are seeking great bread. What
>impresses me, and what I'd like Dan to consider, is that heat has as
>much to offer flavor as cold, that rebalancing starter after storage
>and counterpointing a long cool retard generates flavor.
>
>When I miss the mark, I know. What others think is merely gratifying.
>
>Will

Hi Will,

I would not have made my comment a moment ago had I read
yours first.

We agree completely.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> We are not seeking gold, we are seeking great bread. What
> impresses me, and what I'd like Dan to consider, is that heat has as
> much to offer flavor as cold, that rebalancing starter after storage
> and counterpointing a long cool retard generates flavor.
>
> When I miss the mark, I know. What others think is merely gratifying.
>
> Will

very interesting that you should mention that, heat/cold that is. right now
i am doing a test with the same recipe and proofing times with two breads,
one done in one day and the other one in refer for 36 hours and finished
after in the same manner as the first, except for the retard time. i will
report the results and pics, and my impression of the difference in taste.
it is my hope that retarding is not necessary for great bread, yet i wait.

dan w

Will wrote:

>
>
> But on the matter of the proof box I disagree. It's not used for time
> or consistency. It's about flavor and crumb structure.

What can I say? I have made some pretty good bread and my proof box is
a plastic bag used to keep a humid environment.

> What impresses me, and what I'd like Dan to consider, is that heat has as
> much to offer flavor as cold, that rebalancing starter after storage
> and counterpointing a long cool retard generates flavor.
>

I am not sure what you are saying here. I have come to the process of
building a starter for each bake from a small (teaspoon or less) amount
of storage culture.

In general, and it does not seem to work for everybody, I have observed
more of the aromatic flavor development when the fermentation time is
extended. This is usually accomplished with various starter schemes
such as preferments or stages before the final mix or retards or cool
fermentation after the final mix. You can get some of this by getting
some part of the flour wet without any starter at all. Just a period of
time when the natural enzymes of the grain can work.

Sour taste and additional flavor seems to be enhanced by extending the
process, not necessarily in time, closer to the point of dough collapse.
This is where warmth can play a part because a warmer final rise seems
to contribute to the sour taste. I personally get all the sour taste I
want with final fermetation at room temperature.

> When I miss the mark, I know. What others think is merely gratifying.
>

Neither man nor bread is perfectable. Both can usually be improved.
What I had to learn was not to focus on the lack of perfection and enjoy
what was there. Others did not have their enjoyment constrained by
the vision of perfection in my head.

Regards,

Charles

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
What
> impresses me, and what I'd like Dan to consider, is that heat has as
> much to offer flavor as cold, that rebalancing starter after storage
> and counterpointing a long cool retard generates flavor.
>


Not that long ago I was doing some experiments with really long fridge
retarding, to the point of going with basically no warm proofing at all.
Although I acheived some very interesting flavor variations, I must agree
with Will here, heat and cool are important and work together. While I
occasionally met with some success in trying to get my elusive "champagne
"
flavor, more often than not I ended up eating a rather bland bread,
definately missing something. But the other extreme of hot days and really
warm ferments can sometimes leave strong unpleasant flavors. Right now my
house stays pretty cool, so a fridge retard isnt really needed unless I
need
to delay a bake, but it gets warm enough so that warmth does whatever it
does to add flavor. In warmer months I will be using a combination.

hutchndi

dan w wrote:

> my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro water // wait
> for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro water //
> wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt //

How long (roughly) is it from the previous stage to the 'peak activity'
stage for you? I know that it depends on starter/temps/etc. but I'm
trying to get a ballpark idea so I don't run off for a while and come
back to a pooped out starter...

Thanks!
TL
--

Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist
the black flag, and begin slitting throats.

H.L. Mencken

Typhoon Longwang wrote:

> Thanks!
> TL
> --
>
> Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist
> the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
>
> H.L. Mencken

What a cheery quote.
Thank goodness I'm not normal : -)

TG

here is the latest: i have been running continual tests to see if i can get
better sour and balance of flavors by adjusting the recepie. i have found
that putting the mixed dough in the refer for at least 30 hrs gives a better
sour and balance than same dough that is finished without retarding. of
course ymmv.

here is my adjusted recipe: 2tbs starter from fridge added to 1c ap fl and
1c ro water// wait 10 hrs 80° environment in oven heated with light only//
take 2tbs of this mixture and 1/2c ro water and 1c ap flour// 80° 12hrs//
add 1/2c ro water and 1/2c ww flour 80° for 3 hrs (or good activity)// add
2tsp kosher salt, 1/2c ro water, 1 1/4c ap flour and mix by hand to get good
glop, higher hydration is better// cover with plastic in glass bowl and put
in refer for at least 30 hrs// remove from refer and put in 80° environment
for two hrs// strech and fold 30-45 min apart at least 4 times// form and
allow to rise on counter at 70° covered with oiled plastic. slash and bake
for 25 min at 450° with steam and 15-20 min 400°.

taste notes: wonderful dark crust and good oven spring. chewy crumb, med+
sour, great balance of flavor with sour not overpowering other flavors.
light wheat taste.

i plan on repacing one of the 1/2c of ww in above recipe with 1/2c of dark
rye flour in my next tests. here are the pics:
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrow...der_id=1560362

"Typhoon Longwang" > wrote in message
news:_sVqf.3494$nj1.2058@fed1read07...
> dan w wrote:
>
> > my general recipe was as follows: 1/4 c sd, 1c ap flour, 1c ro water //
wait
> > for good activity (4-6 hrs) and then add ½ c ww flour and ½ c ro water
//
> > wait for peak activity and stir in 3 tsp kosher salt //
>
> How long (roughly) is it from the previous stage to the 'peak activity'
> stage for you? I know that it depends on starter/temps/etc. but I'm
> trying to get a ballpark idea so I don't run off for a while and come
> back to a pooped out starter...
>
> Thanks!
> TL
> --
>
> Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist
> the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
>
> H.L. Mencken

dan w wrote:

> here is my adjusted recipe:

> 1) 2tbs starter from fridge added to 1c ap fl and 1c ro water wait 10 hrs 80° environment in
> oven heated with light only
>
> 2) take 2tbs of this mixture and 1/2c ro water and 1c ap flour, 80° 12hrs
>
> 3) add 1/2c ro water and 1/2c ww flour 80° for 3 hrs (or good activity)
>
> 4) add 2tsp kosher salt, 1/2c ro water, 1 1/4c ap flour and mix by hand to get good
> glop, higher hydration is better, cover with plastic in glass bowl and put
> in refer for at least 30 hrs
>
> 5) remove from refer and put in 80° environment for two hrs strech andfold 30-45 min apart
> at least 4 times
>
> 6) form and allow to rise on counter at 70° covered with oiled plastic.. slash and bake
> for 25 min at 450° with steam and 15-20 min 400°.

Dan...

Sounds pretty good. One small change might be worth looking into.

In step two when you are starting the 12 hour sponge. You build with 1
cup AP then in step 3 refresh with 1/2 cup WW. I'd suggest you add WW
to the sponge build in step 2, then the balance of AP in step 3.

The net is a longer WW ferment yeilding softer bran, slightly better
spring and a bit more buffered acid. The zip.

Look into Dan Wing's technical notes on Samartha's site for his
discussion of ash and the effect of whole grain flour on acidity. It's
interesting.

Will

thanks will, good point. i did know that ww flour helped with the sour
taste i am looking for, yet i did not know that adding it sooner would also
help. one thing i am also trying to do with ww is to lessen the actual
taste of ww bread while still getting the effects of the higher ash content
of ww flour on the sour i am looking for. does that make sense? perhaps
adding it sooner will do that, thx for the info.

dan w


"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...

dan w wrote:

> here is my adjusted recipe:

> 1) 2tbs starter from fridge added to 1c ap fl and 1c ro water wait 10 hrs
80° environment in
> oven heated with light only
>
> 2) take 2tbs of this mixture and 1/2c ro water and 1c ap flour, 80° 12hrs
>
> 3) add 1/2c ro water and 1/2c ww flour 80° for 3 hrs (or good activity)
>
> 4) add 2tsp kosher salt, 1/2c ro water, 1 1/4c ap flour and mix by hand to
get good
> glop, higher hydration is better, cover with plastic in glass bowl and
put
> in refer for at least 30 hrs
>
> 5) remove from refer and put in 80° environment for two hrs strech and
fold 30-45 min apart
> at least 4 times
>
> 6) form and allow to rise on counter at 70° covered with oiled plastic.
slash and bake
> for 25 min at 450° with steam and 15-20 min 400°.

Dan...

Sounds pretty good. One small change might be worth looking into.

In step two when you are starting the 12 hour sponge. You build with 1
cup AP then in step 3 refresh with 1/2 cup WW. I'd suggest you add WW
to the sponge build in step 2, then the balance of AP in step 3.

The net is a longer WW ferment yeilding softer bran, slightly better
spring and a bit more buffered acid. The zip.

Look into Dan Wing's technical notes on Samartha's site for his
discussion of ash and the effect of whole grain flour on acidity. It's
interesting.

Will

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
> Well done, Dan! Although I had to diagram your sequences in order
> to follow them...(:-o)!
>
> I'm going to ponder your steps and see how they line up to what I've
> been doing (and what I could change), to see if I can come up with
> something similar. As I too, have been making great looking bread.
> But only my Rye comes out a bit sour, not my "plain" SF SD. So I'm
> also looking for "improvements"...
>
> Dusty

dusty, here is another update. first i have converted all of my recipes to
gram weights, so that i can get more consistant results. also i found a
way, for me anyway, to get a great sour taste without refer time. here is
the recipe:
(keep in mind that my starters are ap flour only)
Very Sourdough

Method #1

Step #1

32g (100% hydration ) starter from refer

146g AP flour

146g RO water

Mix together and cover with plastic. Put in 80º oven or proofing box for 10
hrs.

Step #2

32g of the above mixture (stir first)

146g of AP flour

73g RO water

Mix together and cover with plastic. Put in 80º oven or proofing box for 12
hrs.

Step #3

To the above add:

73g AP flour

73g RO water

Allow mixture to sit 3 hrs at 80º.

Step #4

To the above add:

10g salt

73g RO water

76g WW flour

173g AP flour

Mix together until flour is well moistened. Oil plastic wrap and place on
dough in bowl. Put in 80º environment for 45 min. Stretch and fold 45 min
apart 3-5 times. Form loaf, rise and bake with steam at 425º for 40 min or
until internal temp is 190º.

Method#2

at step #3 replace WW flour with 70g dark rye flour and 70g RO water

at step #4 replace WW flour with dark rye

(this method created the most sour bread taste)

Method #3

at step #3 replace AP flour with 76g WW flour and 76g of RO water

Method #4

After step #4 -mix in KA mixer speed #2 for 4 min. allow dough to sit 15
min. cover with oiled plastic and put in refer 10-48 hrs. Come to room temp
and stretch and fold 4-5 times. Form and bake with steam at 425º

Hi Dan & all;

"dan w" > wrote in message
. ..
....
> dusty, here is another update. first i have converted all of my
> recipes to
> gram weights, so that i can get more consistant results. also i
> found a
Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
"consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!

> way, for me anyway, to get a great sour taste without refer time.
> here is
> the recipe:
Now *this* intrigues me! Thanks! I'm assuming that you mean
'refrigerator' time?

> (keep in mind that my starters are ap flour only)
Very good (as are mine).

> Very Sourdough
Okay. Much like my own process. I'm gonna work my way through it
and see if I can find the "secret" where your method differs from
mine.

Thank you my friend, for sharing this...


L8r,
Dusty

>
> Method #1
>
> Step #1
<interesting sequence snipped for brevity>

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote >

(concerning scales)

Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!
>


Can we have more opinions about this?

hutchndi

On 2006-01-09, hutchndi > wrote:
>
> "Dusty Bleher" > wrote >
>
> (concerning scales)
>
> Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
>> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
>> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
>> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!
>
> Can we have more opinions about this?

My 2 cents is that it is true that measuring with complete accuracy,
even if it were possible, would not guarantee consistent results, due
to variations in moisture content of flour, humidity and temperature,
etc. I measure everything by weight because (1) it is simply *easier*
and *faster* than fiddling with measuring cups, and (2) it gets me
closer to the mark than volumetric measurement in any case, meaning I
have to do less adjustment (usually no adjustment) of dough
consistency later in the process. It is also far, far easier to scale
recipes up and down, or tweak quantities of particular ingredients by
small amounts until you find the sweet spot.

You need a digital scale with a tare feature and at least 5kg range,
preferrably with +/-1g throughout that range. Keep in mind that the
weight of the bowl you're measuring into counts against that range,
and I have some large bowls that weigh about 2kg empty. I have a
MyWeigh 7001DX which has 7kg range with +/-1g precision throughout and
costs only $35 (http://www.oldwillknott.com/). After a little over a
year, the tare button is starting to get finicky, so this scale may
not last forever. They claim a 30 year warranty; I may have an
opportunity to test that out soon.

I am planning to buy a 0.1g precision scale at some point for
measuring small quantities (like 5g) of things like salt and yeast
(when I bake with yeast), but this will not replace the main scale
because it will not have enough range to make a big batch of dough.

--
Randall

On 9 Jan 2006, at 02:53, Dusty Bleher wrote:

> Hi Dan & all;
>
> "dan w" > wrote in message
> . ..
> ...
>> dusty, here is another update. first i have converted all of my
>> recipes to
>> gram weights, so that i can get more consistant results. also i
>> found a
> Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!

I can't believe you think that yanking a cup of flour with pits and
heaps if more accurate than grams. (:-o) even all those other
conditions aside that you can't control. I know which I've got my
money on. And incidentally my mother, a baker all her life, uses the
same large jug to measure into the same scales every morning. When
you're running a business time and flour are money. She doesn't use
the scales for fun.

TG

On 9 Jan 2006, at 02:53, Dusty Bleher wrote:

> Hi Dan & all;
>
> "dan w" > wrote in message
> . ..
> ...
>> dusty, here is another update. first i have converted all of my
>> recipes to
>> gram weights, so that i can get more consistant results. also i
>> found a
> Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!

I can't believe you think that yanking a cup of flour with pits and
heaps if more accurate than grams. (:-o) even all those other
conditions aside that you can't control. I know which I've got my
money on. And incidentally my mother, a baker all her life, uses the
same large jug to measure into the same scales every morning. When
you're running a business time and flour are money. She doesn't use
the scales for fun.

TG

On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:51:43 -0500, "hutchndi"
> wrote:

>
>"Dusty Bleher" > wrote >
>
>(concerning scales)
>
>Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
>> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
>> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
>> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!
>>
>
>
> Can we have more opinions about this?
>
>hutchndi
>
>

Howdy,

Weighing is vastly easier, and far more accurate...

They do it in commercial bakeries for good reason.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
>>Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
>>> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
>>> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
>>> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!
....
>> Can we have more opinions about this?
....
> Weighing is vastly easier, and far more accurate...
As for being "easier", that's a globally indefinable subjective
opinion. It may well be easier for some. If it is, use it. I find
scooping and shaking the cup level to take about 2-seconds. I find
the setting up of the scale, setting the tare, and then slowly
dribbling the material to be weighed onto it--after having to scoop
a little back off of it--to be far more time consuming. But hey!
To each his own.

> They do it in commercial bakeries for good reason.
And that good reason--and I'd argue the ONLY reason "commercial
bakeries" use weight measurement--is for matters of scale. It's
hard to scale (not to mention a huge PITA!) 3-1/4 cups of flour,
1-1/2 cups of water, 1/4-cup of starter, and 2-teaspoons salt up to
187 loaves of bread today...down to 85 loaves tomorrow, and back up
to 270 loaves for the weekend farmers market delivery.

As for accuracy, somebody's gonna hafta show me the recipe wherein
being +/- a gram or two is important! I dare say that except in
very special instances, +/- 100g is hardly a noteworthy distinction.

Each method of measuring has it's built-in error. Volumetric
measurement suffers from "packing" variations, and mass-based
measuring suffers from moisture and material content variations.
Aforementioned exceptions not withstanding, no one measurement class
is superior to the other. Each has their inherent strength AND
inherent weaknesses. A 1,000 grams of WW is NOT going to be as much
flour as 1,000 grams of AP; and 4-cups of WW is going to weigh more
than 4-cups of AP, and so on...

Good grief, Charlie Brown!


Dusty
....

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:51:43 -0500, "hutchndi"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dusty Bleher" > wrote >
>>
>>(concerning scales)
>>
>>Sorry! But that's a tired, time-worn myth. Metric weights and
>>> "consistency" are not any more congruent than volumetric
>>> measurements--unless, of course, you've figured out how to
>>> compensate for moisture and flour density...(:-o)!
>>>
>>
>>
>> Can we have more opinions about this?
>>
>>hutchndi
>>
>>
>
> Howdy,
>
> Weighing is vastly easier, and far more accurate...
>
> They do it in commercial bakeries for good reason.
>
I agree with Kenneth. The unreliability of cup-measure for flour has been
discussed to death, here and at a.b.r. and if you want to try making the
multiplicity of different breads out there, the precision of weighing is the
only way that you can guarantee approaching the original recipe.
Graham