Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #81 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dusty Bleher
 
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"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
>> You can just as well use a small box (a Saki "cup" comes to
>> mind),

>
> You mean the vessel that H.H. Munro drank sake from?

Donno that one...but I meant those neat, small, square, neatly
constructed wooden boxes that have caused me such incredible
discomfort the next morning...(:-o)!

>> I'm sure there'll be the obligatory 'weenie wagging' of those
>> that
>> have a titanium clad, diamond finish, accurate to 6-digits
>> international scale, that can measure down to a fraction of a
>> gram.

>
> There *are* those who wish to indulge in fantasies that home
> baking is equivalent to commercial endeavors and that one needs
> such things to impress all and sundry. I remember watching my
> grandfather at work

Very true. And, I suspect, at the root of much of what passes
between us in this group...(:-o)!

> simply grabbing balls of dough for tsibblekuchen (onion rolls) out
> of a vat and seeing them identical each time.

Ah! Yes! The indelible mark of a true master in action. Something
I could watch forever. And, lemme take a wild stab at it...he
didn't use a digital scale accurate to 6-decimal places as an excuse
for his success, did he?

<he sez while ducking and running for cover and at the same time
frantically trying to jump into his Nomex shortz...(:-{})!>


L8r all,
Dusty

>
> B/



  #82 (permalink)   Report Post  
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hutchndi
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Dusty Bleher" > wrote

But, just for the interest, what was it
> about the recipe(s) that "didn't work" for you?
>


Usually the doughs were too heavy on flour, resulting in pretty dense
loaves. I was scooping heavy cups back then, so I am not blaming your
recipes. Admittedly, I suppose even if I went back and used cups more like I
do now, so the flour is looser in the cup, I probably would have had allot
better results. Same probably goes for most of the early recipes I tryed.
Sounds like a good argument for scales Dusty.

hutchndi


  #83 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Will
 
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Dusty Bleher wrote:

> I'd been stuck on SFSD because I've been trying to figure out how to
> get the "taste" that I seem to be missing--so I stayed with that one
> simple recipe in order to be able to figure out the impact of any
> changes I might try. The bread comes out great. Great crust. Good
> crumb. Good "holes". Consistent. Reliable. Too easy to eat. But
> never more than just a tiny hint of the San Francisco "sourdough"
> taste that I've been stalking... Heck! I'll even start using and
> swearing by scales if I thought it would get me to where I wanna
> go...(:-o)!


Dusty,

I read your web page for making the SFSD. Good stuff. I'm wondering
what might happen if you pushed that sponge to 90 F. for 2 or 3 hours.
Given the optimum temp for LB's is 91 F and yeast, 81 F... then moving
the temp up a notch should alter the relative populations by retarding
the yeasts a bit. This is something that I had to do with the Acme I
got from Kenneth a while back. Worked well. Got plenty sour.

Will

  #84 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dusty Bleher
 
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Hello Will & all;

"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
....
> I read your web page for making the SFSD. Good stuff. I'm
> wondering

Thanks!

> what might happen if you pushed that sponge to 90 F. for 2 or 3
> hours.
> Given the optimum temp for LB's is 91 F and yeast, 81 F... then
> moving
> the temp up a notch should alter the relative populations by
> retarding
> the yeasts a bit. This is something that I had to do with the Acme
> I
> got from Kenneth a while back. Worked well. Got plenty sour.

Yep. My thoughts exactly. I keep reading on how "well" retarding
works for additional souring ( and no, I'm not trying to start some
'anti-retarding' controversy...(:-o)!), but to say that it would
increase "sour" just didn't make sense. Hey! Not that I'm doubting
that bit of SD folk wisdom. Only that it didn't seem to make sense.
And, FWIW; I tried various iterations of retarding, and didn't get
what I wanted either (yet?).

But I too had figured out that the LB's should do better warmer than
colder, as colder would seem to favor the yeasts. I don't know
about the rest of y'all, but when I was still a SD newbie, it was
the rising (the yeasts) that gave me the most grief. After decades
of yeasted breads, I just couldn't 'grok' the concept that SD worked
so slowly, and wade through the morass of various recipes that ran
the gauntlet of using from 1/4-teaspoon culture to 3-cups, and
enough baking machinations that the limbo was startin' ta look easy
again...

Once I figured that out, and realized what I was watching and doing,
it all became clear. As did so much of the other 'nonsense' that's
so often espoused here as if it were SD gospel: can't bake "real"
bread unless you preheat to 750F for at least 14-hours, can't make
it unless you use a banaton or other "brotform", or you have at
least 6-inches of tile or stone on every surface of your oven, at
least a 40-horsepower mixer and then mix for at least 2-hours,
water/steam, and a phyne digital scale accurate to at least
6-digits...(:-o)! But I digress...LOL!

Having gotten past that, I tried to reconcile how retarding a loaf
would make it more sour. Sure, more time for the LB's to work. But
at ~38F? I don't think so! Although to be both fair and honest, my
early foray's into warm rising haven't yet gotten me those results
either. But, that's what baking's all about (at least to me).
Never having been a slave to either a recipe or old traditions, I'm
willing to explore other avenues--and actively look for those that
will give me the results I want. And if I find something that
works, even if it goes against my previously conceived notions, I'll
promptly change my view and incorporate that new tactic... But hey!
That's just me...YMMV.

So, yes. To answer the thrust of your original post, Will. I'm
going to be exploring warmer final ferments. However, FWIW; I'm
starting to lean towards the concept that it's: TSS ("The Starter
Stupid!"...(:-o)!). And that's why I continue to be grateful for
those folks posting here that are willing to share their starter. I
may well yet be shown wrong, but it's my guess that the sour you get
is going to be a function of your starter *and* how it's
treated/used. I can't wait to get into the 'Acme' starter (now that
I've finally managed to get it to grow w/o contaminating it with my
old starter...).


L8r all,
Dusty

>
> Will
>



  #85 (permalink)   Report Post  
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TG
 
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Dusty Bleher wrote:

> "TG," or whatever pseudonym you're using today, you can post your
> pointless and insipid blathering to me here. Do not send them to my
> private eddress. That privilege is reserved for friends...something
> you are not!


You really are pushing out the vile boat aren't you? As it happens
it's the default thing that happens when I click on reply.

TG is not a pseudonym. It is the initials of my name on my passport.
I hardly think that qualifies as a fictitious name. How dare you be
so unmentionably rude. It' is none of your business besides anything
else. It really is so increadibly ironic that you are talking about
degenration of the point in one post and in the next spout vile,
poisonous rhetoric the next. You really ought to take a look in the
mirror. You've spent so long shoring up your pointless argument, now
you feel so full of hate you don't know where to put it. I won't
reply to you again. If I do I will try to remember your hatred and
remove you from the address line.

TG








  #86 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Will
 
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Dusty,

For what it's worth... retarding doesn't make my bread sour'er either.
But it does give it a very fine gluten build and the flavor does shift,
not sour'er, but riper. Hard to explain. I've also noticed the gluten
is of different and frankly, better, quality than machine builds. It's
more extensible.

I decided to do both wam and cold operations: warm starter refresh and
warm sponge, followed by overnight retard, followed by warm final
proof.

I keep thinking that refrigerator storage is a problem for LB's. I
don't have a work-around other than trying harder to front load acid
during the sponge ferment. See the Wing/Gaenzle pages on Samartha's
site. Gaenzle gets into some interesting areas with ionic strength and
inoculation ratios.

Enjoy the Acme. It's good.

Will

  #87 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Jim
 
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Brian Mailman wrote:

> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
>> You can just as well use a small box (a Saki "cup" comes to mind),

>
> You mean the vessel that H.H. Munro drank sake from?


There's a short story there somewhere. ;-)

>> I'm sure there'll be the obligatory 'weenie wagging' of those that
>> have a titanium clad, diamond finish, accurate to 6-digits
>> international scale, that can measure down to a fraction of a gram.

>
> There *are* those who wish to indulge in fantasies that home baking is
> equivalent to commercial endeavors and that one needs such things to
> impress all and sundry. I remember watching my grandfather at work
> simply grabbing balls of dough for tsibblekuchen (onion rolls) out of a
> vat and seeing them identical each time.


There is no substitute for the kind of developed skill that tells you
exactly how things should look and feel. No matter how much I measure,
there are immeasurables in baking that I haven't mastered yet. And a lot of
that stuff can only be passed on in person from an experienced baker. I'll
bet your grandfather could eyeball the dough and know its hydration too.

  #88 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dusty Bleher
 
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"Will" > wrote in message
oups.com...
....
> For what it's worth... retarding doesn't make my bread sour'er
> either.

Yeah. That's been my experience as well. But a lot of folks whose
expertise and experience I greatly respect have posted here that it
works that way for them. So I'm not ready to write it off just yet.
More and more it makes me think that a "proper" starter is at the
heart of a solution. Oh well. We'll see...

> But it does give it a very fine gluten build and the flavor does
> shift,
> not sour'er, but riper. Hard to explain. I've also noticed the
> gluten
> is of different and frankly, better, quality than machine builds.
> It's
> more extensible.

Interesting. I'm going to have to come up with a way to test that
(not that I don't believe you, but I'm a "gotta see it" or
experience it kinda guy).

What I also find interesting is your reference to "machine builds".
I don't know if you mean a mixer or an ABM--I've never used an ABM,
so I can't speak to that. But I have used a mixer. In fact it was
that rat "WCSJohn", that made me get a mixer so I could make his
phyne breads (:-o)! Our "KingOfGlop" convinced me that only by
abusing the dough for nearly half and hour by power mixer could I
successfully make his Coccodrillo recipe. So I got it. And
although I had to convert his recipe from yeast to "real culture" (I
still luv you, John...(:-o)!), I did make great bread!

Then along comes Mike with his tale of "mixing" woes and how his
friend described what I called "the flatten&fold" method of
"mixing"... Being a crusty old minimalist like my friend "Dicky", I
seized on that method. I made some of that Coccodrillo the other
day. I smashed and folded it about 5 times. Made GREAT bread! Now
I've blown off that mixer as well (gave it to my niece a couple of
weeks ago--now she's one happy camper!).

That was a long way of getting around to not really noticing the
lack of machine help. Methinks I'm gonna hafta start paying more
attention to that, as I certainly think that you've made a salient
point...

> I decided to do both wam and cold operations: warm starter refresh
> and
> warm sponge, followed by overnight retard, followed by warm final
> proof.
>
> I keep thinking that refrigerator storage is a problem for LB's. I

I gotta agree. In fact, I was cleaning out the fridge in the RV
earlier today, and found a container of some starter I got from
Brian. It's been out there hiding in the cold for probably 5 or
6-months or more. It's in refresh at the moment. And as soon as I
see bubbles, I'm gonna throw together a loaf with it to see if the
hiatus affected those LB's at all...

> don't have a work-around other than trying harder to front load
> acid
> during the sponge ferment. See the Wing/Gaenzle pages on
> Samartha's

I've been doing the warm-ferment sponge building for years, now. In
fact, I believe that all of my recipes have been converted to that.
I can tell you that it's apparently not helped much <big sigh!>.
What I've been fooling with for the last few weeks is doing that
final rise warmer (at or even above my primary ferment temps).

....
> Enjoy the Acme. It's good.

That's what I'm betting on! So far, the best "sour" I've found was
in my Jewish-rye (pix in the later two links).
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/RyeBread.htm
http://www.innerlodge.com/pix/Bread/RyeL.JPG
http://www.innerlodge.com/pix/Bread/RyeC.JPG

So I'm convinced that certainly the rye flour has an impact. But
the SFSD I get on the pier in the city doesn't seem to use any
non-white flours. At any rate, it's my sincere hope that coupled
with my existing methods, the Acme will be *the* missing link to my
ultimate SD success...


L8r all,
Dusty


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Brian Mailman
 
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Dusty Bleher wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>>
>>> You can just as well use a small box (a Saki "cup" comes to
>>> mind),

>>
>> You mean the vessel that H.H. Munro drank sake from?


> Donno that one...but I meant those neat, small, square, neatly
> constructed wooden boxes that have caused me such incredible
> discomfort the next morning...(:-o)!


Apparently the war on true education has been going on longer than I've
believed. "Saki" was H.H. Munro's pen name. (a purveyor of short
stories). He may have drunk sake.

>> simply grabbing balls of dough for tsibblekuchen (onion rolls) out
>> of a vat and seeing them identical each time.

> Ah! Yes! The indelible mark of a true master in action. Something
> I could watch forever. And, lemme take a wild stab at it...he
> didn't use a digital scale accurate to 6-decimal places as an excuse
> for his success, did he?


I suppose the proper question would be: "would he have used them, had
they been invented then."

One wonders how they ever did any kind of baking before the Electronic Age.

B/
>
> <he sez while ducking and running for cover and at the same time
> frantically trying to jump into his Nomex shortz...(:-{})!>
>
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty
>
>>
>> B/

>
>

  #90 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Brian Mailman
 
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TG wrote:

> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
>> "TG," or whatever pseudonym you're using today, you can post your
>> pointless and insipid blathering to me here. Do not send them to my
>> private eddress. That privilege is reserved for friends...something
>> you are not!


> You really are pushing out the vile boat aren't you? As it happens it's
> the default thing that happens when I click on reply.


My default is that my pants are zipped up. If I don't change the
default, they get wet when I pee.

B/


  #91 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Brian Mailman
 
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Jim wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>>
>>> You can just as well use a small box (a Saki "cup" comes to
>>> mind),

>>
>> You mean the vessel that H.H. Munro drank sake from?

>
> There's a short story there somewhere. ;-)


FINALLY....
> There is no substitute for the kind of developed skill that tells you
> exactly how things should look and feel. No matter how much I
> measure, there are immeasurables in baking that I haven't mastered
> yet.


IMy point was that I was agreeing with Dusty.... it's all measuring of
one sort or another. The chef I apprenticed to looked as if he was just
throwing this and that into a stockpot but he actually knew by feel and
'cup' he made of his palm what was tablespoon, quarter cup, etc.

> ...I'll bet your grandfather could eyeball the dough and know its
> hydration too.


No doubt and he probably didn't know what hydration was particularly.
Just that the dough was right or it wasn't and how to fix it.

B/
  #92 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Randall Nortman
 
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On 2006-01-12, Will > wrote:
[...]
> I keep thinking that refrigerator storage is a problem for LB's. I
> don't have a work-around other than trying harder to front load acid
> during the sponge ferment. See the Wing/Gaenzle pages on Samartha's
> site. Gaenzle gets into some interesting areas with ionic strength and
> inoculation ratios.

[...]

I have come to this conclusion as well, not so much as concerns
retarding the mixed dough, but with respect to starter storage. I
have quit storing my starter in the refrigerator. I feed it every
morning, 20g rye flour and 20g water, whether I bake with it or not.
That comes out to 16lbs of flour per year (assuming I never bake and
it is all wasted, which isn't true). I buy organic rye berries in
25-lb bags for for $5.46, so that comes to an annual cost of about
$3.50 to maintain my starter this way. (Plus about 1 minute per day,
which is 6 hours per year, which would well exceed the flour cost if I
were to bill myself at a reasonable hourly rate, but still isn't
really such a big deal.)

I have only been doing this for about a month now, actually, but I
think there is a difference in my starter. It is subtle, but perhaps
it will become more pronounced as the mix of critters changes. Even
if not, it is worth it to shave off a few hours from the baking
process in those cases where I need to bake without having planned
ahead. (My wife is fond of informing me that she'd like fresh bread
for some social event or another on short notice. In such situations,
the fact that I always have active, bubbling starter on the counter is
a welcome help.)

If I ever get around to maintaining more than one starter culture (and
I am tempted to try the Poilne/Acme starters which Kenneth has
generously offered), then I may need to reconsider my strategy, as
keeping several starters continuously refreshed takes more flour,
time, and counter space, plus increased risk of cross-contamination.

--
Randall
  #93 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dusty Bleher
 
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"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
....
>>>> You can just as well use a small box (a Saki "cup" comes to
>>>> mind),
>>> You mean the vessel that H.H. Munro drank sake from?

>> Donno that one...but I meant those neat, small, square, neatly
>> constructed wooden boxes that have caused me such incredible
>> discomfort the next morning...(:-o)!

>
> Apparently the war on true education has been going on longer than
> I've > believed. "Saki" was H.H. Munro's pen name. (a purveyor of
> short stories). He may have drunk sake.

Oops! I should have caught that...at least the second time
around...(:-o)! Thanks for the correction, Brian...

....
> I suppose the proper question would be: "would he have used them,
> had they been invented then."
>
> One wonders how they ever did any kind of baking before the
> Electronic Age.

Hey! Ya think that's bad...sometimes I wonder what *I* would have
been doing if it hadn't been for the "Electronic Age"...(:-o)!

L8r all,
Dusty
....


  #94 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dusty Bleher
 
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Hello Randall & all;

"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
ink.net...
....
> I have come to this conclusion as well, not so much as concerns
> retarding the mixed dough, but with respect to starter storage. I
> have quit storing my starter in the refrigerator. I feed it every

Likewise... I too changed that as I continue to pursue my "sour"
flavor...

> morning, 20g rye flour and 20g water, whether I bake with it or
> not.

Now that I haven't done. So far I use the AP I bake with. But, an
interesting thought...one that I may have to try as well...

....
> I have only been doing this for about a month now, actually, but I
> think there is a difference in my starter. It is subtle, but
> perhaps
> it will become more pronounced as the mix of critters changes.
> Even

An interesting observation, that. Plz keep us advised as you note
any changes.

....
> If I ever get around to maintaining more than one starter culture
> (and
> I am tempted to try the Poilne/Acme starters which Kenneth has
> generously offered), then I may need to reconsider my strategy, as
> keeping several starters continuously refreshed takes more flour,
> time, and counter space, plus increased risk of
> cross-contamination.

Well, I've got the Acme, Brian's, Poilane, and the SF starter from
SDI all clamoring for attention on my counter. I'm willing to toss
the old stuff to keep 'em fed and active. In fact I'll do most
anything in my pursuit of my beloved "San Francisco" SD "sour"...
Even use a scale if it'll help...(:-o)!

L8r all,
Dusty
....


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TG
 
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>
> My default is that my pants are zipped up. If I don't change the
> default, they get wet when I pee.
>
> B/


Brian how very funny you are. Your wit is boundless. Or as they say in
Wigan, 'Shut yer fat gob un keep yer nose out.' :-) Only joking.

The alternative I have is to the sender only. I doubt she would like
that now would she?

TG



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Joe Umstead
 
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Brian Mailman wrote:


> IMy point was that I was agreeing with Dusty.... it's all measuring of
> one sort or another. The chef I apprenticed to looked as if he was just
> throwing this and that into a stockpot but he actually knew by feel and
> 'cup' he made of his palm what was tablespoon, quarter cup, etc.


Too much, "The Chef" mad good soup. The question is can you make "Good
Bread" no mater how you measure.

HHG Driver, Joe Umstead
  #97 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dick Adams
 
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"Joe Umstead" > wrote in message ...

> Too much, "The Chef" mad good soup. The question is can you make "Good
> Bread" no mater how you measure.


Mad is a good word, and so is mater (latin?). Hopelessness for spell checkers.

Hopelessness for Usenet.

(Sigh!)

  #98 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Brian Mailman
 
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TG wrote:

>> My default is that my pants are zipped up. If I don't change the
>> default, they get wet when I pee.


> Brian how very funny you are. Your wit is boundless.


I'm glad you appreciate it so. It's wasted on so many who just don't
apprehend the practical points I bring up from time to time.

> The alternative I have is to the sender only.


And your hands are broken that you can't change the To: line? Sorry to
hear that. Good luck with your healing, whatever that may be. Well,
you still have two alternatives:

1. Have someone else do it for you.

2. Be more considered when deciding what messages need your response.

B/
  #99 (permalink)   Report Post  
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hutchndi
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xx
"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...

Well,
> you still have two alternatives:
>
> 1. Have someone else do it for you.
>
> 2. Be more considered when deciding what messages need your response.
>
> B/



Or 3: Just continue on as your doing. We are all big boys (or girls) here,
only a few of us care about such trivia. If I get a message I dont like,
there is the delete button, and even one that says block sender.


hutchndi


  #100 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Charles Perry
 
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Dick Adams wrote:
Hopelessness for spell checkers.
>


What is a spell checker? And, ware cannes eye gits won?

Watching my sourdough rise in person.

Charles


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hutchndi wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message


..
> >
> > 2. Be more considered when deciding what messages need your response.
> >
> > B/

>
>
> Or 3: Just continue on as your doing. We are all big boys (or girls) here,
> only a few of us care about such trivia. If I get a message I dont like,
> there is the delete button, and even one that says block sender.
>
>
> hutchndi


LOL, Thanks hutchndi

TG

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Mike Avery
 
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On 1/12/06, TG > wrote:
>
> Mike Avery wrote:
>
> > After baking, the loaf weight is "spot on" as our U.K friends might
> > say

>
> We do that. : -)
>
> I don't remember saying thanks Mike. I got my scales that you
> recommended at the weekend. Good value and I don't have to rush
> pouring out before they switch themselves off. : -) That was such a
> pain with my old ones.




And the best part is you can sing old Frank Sinatra songs as you weigh out
your bread. Glad you liked 'em. Among the cheap scales I've tried, "My
Weigh" is by far my favorite.

Mike

  #104 (permalink)   Report Post  
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Dave Bell
 
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Mike Avery wrote:

> And the best part is you can sing old Frank Sinatra songs as you weigh
> out your bread. Glad you liked 'em. Among the cheap scales I've tried,
> "My Weigh" is by far my favorite.
>
> Mike


You know, Mike, in some circles a line like that'd get you banned!

Dave
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