Hi all,

I've just moved to the Sacramento, CA area and I don't have the same
bakery / flour connections that I used to have when I lived in
Portland, OR. I used to buy 50lb bags of a locally grown organic flour
with about 18-20% protein from a local french bakery - but here in
Sacramento I've been reduced to 5lb bags of Gold Medal. *sigh*

Does anyone know of a good bulk resource in the Sacramento area? I'm
willing to go to a farm or wherever if I can get good quality,
unbleached, high gluten flour for around $0.30 / lb. This Gold Medal is
not that good.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Tom

Tom_Stanton wrote:

> Does anyone know of a good bulk resource in the Sacramento area? I'm
> willing to go to a farm or wherever if I can get good quality,
> unbleached, high gluten flour for around $0.30 / lb. This Gold Medal is
> not that good.
> Tom

Ed Replies,
This will probably be of no help. I buy the 50 lb premium white flour
from WheatMontana. It has the best rising power for SD that I have
found and it develops a nice dark brown crust during baking. For me it
is the powerbait of baking.

While a sack is only $17, the final price with shipping to southern
California is $38. That price is way over your bogey but with the cost
of driving to a farm and so forth maybe it's a push.

I agree. Gold Medal simply does not work for me either. Maybe it is
good for yeasted breads.

Ed Bechtel

Mountain People's Warehouse at www.mtnpeopleswhs.com, a.k.a. UNFI West
in Auburn sells Giusto's, which I believe is a good brand. I don't know
what their minimums are for pickup or even if they let you do pickup,
but they have a $1000 minimum for ordering now.

Azure Standard at www.azurestandard.com in Oregon or Washington
somewhere is a co-op that I believe also sells Giusto's, and you can
contact them to find a group in your area that you can order through or
you can order by yourself

I have ordered from both places in buying groups and been happy with them.

Other than that, for just small quantities find a natural foods store,
either a small independent one or if they have a Whole Foods Market
branch up there.

Tom_Stanton wrote:

> Does anyone know of a good bulk resource in the Sacramento area? I'm
> willing to go to a farm or wherever if I can get good quality,
> unbleached, high gluten flour for around $0.30 / lb. This Gold Medal is
> not that good.

Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
> I agree. Gold Medal simply does not work for me either. Maybe it is
> good for yeasted breads.

Gold Medal is basically bleached white flour that had some bran and germ
replaced. *yuck*

On 5 Dec 2005 08:52:09 -0800, "Ed Bechtel"
> wrote:

>I agree. Gold Medal simply does not work for me either. Maybe it is
>good for yeasted breads.

Howdy,

Is King Arthur AP available in the markets local to the OP?

I've used it for years happily. Here in New Hampshire it is
available everywhere you might look.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Thanks for the info Melinda.

What do you mean about ordering in groups? Do you mean that there might
be some sort of group of people here in Sac who are already buying from
them in large quantities and that I could - sort of - throw in with
them?

T

Tom_Stanton wrote:

> ... This Gold Medal is not that good.
>
Flour snobbery? You can do a lot worse than Gold Medal flour. You can
, and I have,
made perfecly acceptable bread with GM flour.

OK, it is not my first choice for sourdough bread, but it is not
deserving of the scorn being heaped upon it here. I use a lot of it for
other things and I find it to be as consistant within its class as King
Arthur is in its group.

If you are baking bad bread and using GM flour, you have more to worry
about than the flour.

Good luck finding a flour you like. We are lucky here in that you can
grind Montanna Wheat (red or white) right at the grocery store and also
get great Dakota Maid bread flour fresh fom the mill sometimes within
days of being packaged.

Charles

OK, ok - I certainly had no intention of maligning GM flour.

I never said that I was, "...baking bad bread with GM flour." What I am
hoping for is something with a little more protein at a little cheaper
price. I pay about $.50 / lb for GM bread flour - and I can only buy it
5lb packs. That is pain on many levels - the least of which is the
quality of output.

I'm just spoiled from my former access to a 18% organic bread flour at
$10 / 50lb bag. *sigh*

T

Tom_Stanton wrote:


>... I pay about $.50 / lb for GM bread flour ...
>

OH, my. Here that price gets you boutique flour. GM unbleached AP is
almost always on sale somewhere for under a buck for a 5 pound bag. I
have paid as low as $.68 this year, recently $.88. Of course, drive any
direction from here for an hour and you will drive by at least one mill.

regards,

Charles

Charles Perry wrote...
<Flour snobbery? You can do a lot worse than Gold Medal flour. You
can
, and I have,
made perfecly acceptable bread with GM flour. >

Ed replies,

No offense intended to GM. My repeated experience with SD was the dough
turned ragged instead of developing a strong gluten structure.
And another thing, for the low price I think GM provides only
discounted bread faeries, perhaps refurbished ones at best.

Ed Bechtel

Tom_Stanton wrote:
> Thanks for the info Melinda.
>
> What do you mean about ordering in groups? Do you mean that there might
> be some sort of group of people here in Sac who are already buying from
> them in large quantities and that I could - sort of - throw in with
> them?

Exactamundo, and if you want any other whole foods things, the prices
are good.

Charles Perry wrote:
>
> OK, it is not my first choice for sourdough bread, but it is not
> deserving of the scorn being heaped upon it here.

I am not heaping scorn upon it. I am just saying that it is a different
flour than that which consists solely of ground wheat berries.

Tom_Stanton wrote:
> Portland, OR. I used to buy 50lb bags of a locally grown organic flour
> with about 18-20% protein from a local french bakery - but here in

Sorry that I can't help. Just out of curiosity. What kind of flour can
have 18-20% protein? It's really high.

Hi Tom-
Welcome to northern CA.

Try Joe Artim, owner/baker Grateful Bread, 2543 Fair Oaks Blvd,
Sacramento (916) 487-9179. I'm "know" Joe thru the Bread Bakers Guild
of America list. He's a very nice fellow and would be happy to talk
flour with you I'm sure.

The Giusto mill is a 3 generation family operated company in SF also
very nice folks. www.giustos.com

Small amounts, Trader Joe's in Sacramneto sells 3 kinds of King Arthur.
The AP is $2.79/#5.

FYI there are several home brick oven folks in the Sac area if that
interests you.

Good luck- Marylouise
SF bay

Tom_Stanton wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've just moved to the Sacramento, CA area and I don't have the same
> bakery / flour connections that I used to have when I lived in
> Portland, OR. I used to buy 50lb bags of a locally grown organic flour
> with about 18-20% protein from a local french bakery - but here in
> Sacramento I've been reduced to 5lb bags of Gold Medal. *sigh*
>
> Does anyone know of a good bulk resource in the Sacramento area? I'm
> willing to go to a farm or wherever if I can get good quality,
> unbleached, high gluten flour for around $0.30 / lb. This Gold Medal is
> not that good.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help!
>
> Tom

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
k.net...
....
> Flour snobbery? You can do a lot worse than Gold Medal flour. You can ,
> and I have,
> made perfecly acceptable bread with GM flour.
Thanks for chiming in, Charles. I was gonna say that very same thing, but I
know how some of the "hard-core" in this group can get when their favorite
ox gets gored...(:-o)! So I try to stay out of those kinds of
kerfluffles...

> OK, it is not my first choice for sourdough bread, but it is not deserving
> of the scorn being heaped upon it here. I use a lot of it for other
> things and I find it to be as consistant within its class as King Arthur
> is in its group.
About the same as my experience. Like many coming and reading here, as a
newbie I too was inundated with all of the advice and guidance that can be
found here. Although largely excellent, too often it is laden with
pointless minutia and rife with self-proclaimed opinion. And, as I so often
heard recommended, I too ran the gamut of at least trying most of the flours
mentioned here and/or by others. And I've yet to find a substantive
difference between them.

I used to zealously hunt down and bake only with "Bread-Flour", ground and
mixed to very exacting high-protein standards. At home, that's easy. Cuz I
know all of the stores, who carries what, and where to go. But, we spend a
good deal of our time on the road, so that kind of knowledge is pretty well
worthless on the rest of the planet. Then, on some website I was browsing
(SDI, perhaps?) I learned that they don't even recommend 'special' "bread
flour". Ordinary AP seems to perform just fine, they said. So I tried that
tact. Now I bake with whatever OTS brand of unbleached AP the store I'm in
carries. And I've not yet had a loaf that's failed to perform properly...

Might that some wheat grain that was hand selected and imported by a
registered courier, carefully planted in organically maintained loam,
watered and hand tended stalk-by-stalk, with each grain carefully culled and
packed in a shock-proof temperture controlled container before being shipped
to mills that use only the finest, diamond-studded stones be better?
Probably. But it just doesn't seem to be worth it to this
minimalist...(:-o)!

In fact, I just pulled a nice little Jewish Rye loaf out of the oven, made
( http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/RyeBread.htm )
primarily with OTS, Albertson's unbleached AP (and a cup from a small bag of
Bob's Red-Mill dark-rye). Haven't gnawed on it just yet. Gonna wait till
it cools. But I made it to become the underpinnings of a great turkey
sandwich later tonight...(:-o)!

> If you are baking bad bread and using GM flour, you have more to worry
> about than the flour.
Spot on!

> Good luck finding a flour you like. We are lucky here in that you can
> grind Montanna Wheat (red or white) right at the grocery store and also
> get great Dakota Maid bread flour fresh fom the mill sometimes within days
> of being packaged.
Now *that* I've not yet had a chance to try. Might be fun... I think after
the spring, springs, I may wander out that way to give that a shot...


L8r all,
Dusty
--
>
> Charles
>

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 17:51:27 -0800, "Dusty Bleher"
> wrote:

>I learned that they don't even recommend 'special' "bread
>flour". Ordinary AP seems to perform just fine, they said.

Hi Dusty,

One of the interesting thing about this (that I have never
understood) is that other thing being equal, the results
with lower protein flour will taste better...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi,

The flour was a locally grown strain that was developed by WSU and some
local farmer's in eastern Washington State. It was called Shepherd's
Grain. We used it - and I believe they still use it at
www.sainthonorebakery.com. The 18-20% was a number we came up with
after several rather informal gluten tests: mixing some flour and water
and then working the dough beneath cold water to see how much gluten is
left when you're all done. Not very precise I'll warrant you, but after
10 trials all fell within the range of 21-18 we felt relatively
confident.

Our boss was pretty surprised too. *shrug*

Thanks for the welcome Marylouise,

Can you maybe give me a website or an email of some of those who are
involved in brick ovens here in Sacramento? I'm looking to build one
with my father-in-law next year.

I'm going to swing by Grateful Bread - it's pretty close to my home.

Thanks again,

Tom

Hi Kenneth,

....
>>I learned that they don't even recommend 'special' "bread
>>flour". Ordinary AP seems to perform just fine, they said.
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> One of the interesting thing about this (that I have never
> understood) is that other thing being equal, the results
> with lower protein flour will taste better...
Now *that* _IS_ interesting!

One of the problems with me being able to quantify such an assertion is that
I just don't make that many--different breads--all at once. That's where
you "pro's" have it all over us amateurs...(:-o)!

Kinda like wine tasting. You might like some type of wine. But unless you
line up 4 or 5 of 'em, and compare 'em side-by-side, it's near impossible to
do a taste comparison from memory. Next to each other, it's a snap. Of
course, then, unless you've got lots of friends over, you're left with the
"problem" of "getting-rid-of" the rest of those 4-5 bottles... Ahh! Would
that all problems be that thorny...

That's kinda the problem I'm having with my breads...(:-o)!

Pretty well all of my breads come out great (at least in my NTBHO...(:-o)!).
But due to differences between 'em caused by my carelessness, or having to
backfill something: such as going to add flour for the sponge to dough
transition, and finding the cupboard empty. This degenerates into a frantic
trip to find a store(s) and buy some more. So, then you come home with
flour that's a different brand/kind than I started with--and the sponge had
a few more hours to "work". The bread still comes out okay. But it's hard
to say what impacted the final result. The sponge "working" time? The
brand of flour? Different salt? Different water? The altitude? The
humidity? Measuring variations? And so on...

I'm always delighted when what I make tastes okay, and nobody's spitting it
out onto the floor...(:-o)! Hard to compare that to the previous days
taste, or tomorrows...where or when ever that may be...

BTW; that rye loaf I made yesterday, was OUTSTANDING! So good, in fact, that
the ravenous hordes tore into it, nearly depleting my entire supply. So
much so that I had to start a double-batch last night...(:-o)!

Tonight, instead of being covered with turkey, it's gonna get treated to
being made into a the king of sandwiches: The PERFECT Reuben Sandwich!
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Sa...enSandwich.htm


L8r all,
Dusty
....

I found its website, http://www.shepherdsgrain.com/
And also other information by googling. It seems a good flour for
baking. Maybe its protein content is not as high as your test. I guess
there are other factors in this flour good for bread-making, not just
because of the protein content.
Hope you find the resolution soon.

Looks like there was a flaw in our method alright.

Thanks for finding it for me!

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:13:16 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>Tom_Stanton wrote:
>
>
>>... I pay about $.50 / lb for GM bread flour ...
> >
>
>OH, my. Here that price gets you boutique flour. GM unbleached AP is
>almost always on sale somewhere for under a buck for a 5 pound bag. I
>have paid as low as $.68 this year, recently $.88. Of course, drive any
>direction from here for an hour and you will drive by at least one mill.

Where I happen to be, on the west coast of BC, 2 ferry rides from
anywhere, I just paid $3.00/lb for a 3# bag of whole Spelt!! Great
flour, but I think I need to lower my sights a bit.

Don R.

Don R. wrote:

>
> ...I just paid $3.00/lb for a 3# bag of whole Spelt!! Great
> flour...

I hope you are keeping it in the freezer. Whole ground spelt spoils
faster than wheat or rye and it truly awful when it gets rancid. I once
baked a batch of bread with spoiled spelt and the result was so bad that
the scavenger critters in the woods wouldn't touch it.

If I could get $3.00 a pound for spelt, I would take up farming.

Regards,

Charles

Tom-
You're welcome.

If you are hoping to build one I'd encourage you joining the yahoo
brick-oven list.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/brick-oven/
There are oven buildrers of all levels on that list.

I know Vince on that list is in greater Sacramento area, maybe
something like Citrus Heights... I forget. If you join and post for
Sac contacts I'm sure several will chime in.

Another somewhat less active list is fornobravo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fornobravo/

I can't see your email address, Tom. So write to me off list.
-Marylouise

Tom_Stanton wrote:
> Thanks for the welcome Marylouise,
>
> Can you maybe give me a website or an email of some of those who are
> involved in brick ovens here in Sacramento? I'm looking to build one
> with my father-in-law next year.
>
> I'm going to swing by Grateful Bread - it's pretty close to my home.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> Tom

Charles Perry wrote:
> If I could get $3.00 a pound for spelt, I would take up farming.

You can think about it and sell to Japan
In Japan, even in bulk (though their "bulk" is smaller),
bread flour costs 1176 yen for 5 kg (~ $1 per pound);
semolina flour is 380 yen for 0.5kg (~ $3 per pound);
rye flour is 1575 yen for 5 kg (~$1.2 per pound);
skim milk powder is 546 yen for 0.5 kg ($4.1 per pound).
(excluding the shipping cost)

Spelt flour? Can not find it!
What an economic shock when I moved from US to Japan.