If I threw out the "hooch" on top of my sourdough starters (1 water; 1
potato water) is there any way revive them or are they dead now?

Thanks for any help.

Rick in CO

Oh...one other thing. I haven't fed these starters in a long time.
They've been in the refrigerator for about 2 months or so (maybe
longer) and there was about 1/4" or so of gray hooch on top.

Hope this helps to see if I can revive them. Also, can I combine the
two together to make all one starter, or should i just pick one and
throw the other away?

Thanks again!
Rick

"Rick in CO" > wrote:

>Hope this helps to see if I can revive them. Also, can I combine the
>two together to make all one starter, or should i just pick one and
>throw the other away?

I'd keep them separate for the time being; odds are good for waking them
up: After pouring off the "hooch" (a good idea, that gets rid of unneeded
alcohol), add flour to double the volume (dump some of the original starter
out if that would make too much) and water to make a batter. The
consistency doesn't matter a lot.* Keep at warmish room temp until it
wakes up, perhaps feeding every day if nothing seems to happen. Don't give
up right away.

*Religious Issue warning.

My Carl's starter had probably been refrigerated that long, and came back
in a couple of days. I'll probably bake with it tomorrow.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On 20 Oct 2005 12:00:48 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
wrote:

>Oh...one other thing. I haven't fed these starters in a long time.
>They've been in the refrigerator for about 2 months or so (maybe
>longer) and there was about 1/4" or so of gray hooch on top.
>
>Hope this helps to see if I can revive them. Also, can I combine the
>two together to make all one starter, or should i just pick one and
>throw the other away?
>
>Thanks again!
>Rick

Hi Rick,

Why not try to revive each of them...?

Using either of them:

Take a small amount of what you have, say a teaspoon's
worth. To that, add a 1/4 cup flour, and the same volume of
water. Mix it up, cover it, and leave it in a warm (80F or
so) place for 24 hours.

See if there are any significant changes: Bubbles, growth in
volume etc. would be great.

If not, repeat. That is take a teaspoon of the mixture you
created and try again.

If, after three or four such cycles, you don't have it
revived, I'd give up on it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Rick in CO wrote:
> Oh...one other thing. I haven't fed these starters in a long time.
> They've been in the refrigerator for about 2 months or so (maybe
> longer) and there was about 1/4" or so of gray hooch on top.

I have had starters revived after two month in the fridge to compare if
and how they are performing.

After two month it became a bit more involved to get them back - more
refreshments or reduce/refresh necessary.

I've always put the hooch back in.

How you do it, probably does not matter - with or without hooch, mixing
or not mixing.

Your problem is going to be to get them out of oversouring. Don't even
think of using all of your starter and then adding some flour + water.

You'd have to take a small amount and then add 10 times the flour and
see if you get some activity.

Anyway, there is a starter doctor in the SD FAQ - that should tell you.

> Hope this helps to see if I can revive them. Also, can I combine the
> two together to make all one starter, or should i just pick one and
> throw the other away?

If you do it right, it will work out - either there is something there
still, which is most likely from what you tell, or something new will
grow out of the flour.

By doing it right, I mean avoiding oversouring.

Samartha

PS.: Where are you in CO?

Ok, if I'm understanding correctly...I would have 4 (or more) different
containers from the starter to try to revive it? 1 tsp from the
original to feed, then another from that batch, then another...etc? Do
I throw out the rest of the original that I took the 1tsp from? Thanks
again, Rick

Rick,

let me ask you this:

Did the starters you have - in separate containers any special
qualities, i. e. were they different in any way?

That would be an argument to revive them separately.

Other than that, try one batch, leave the old stuff in the fridge for
now to have a spare.

Once you have it revived, do with the remaining stuff whatever you
choose - dump it, use it for pancakes, whatever.

You revive it by taking a small amount and mix it, then let it grow, if
it starts, use this to add more. If the amounts get too large, you need
to reduce and then add.

So unless you want to preserve certain qualities of a starter, you would
only work with one container, where you keep growing it more.

Samartha


Rick in CO wrote:
> Ok, if I'm understanding correctly...I would have 4 (or more) different
> containers from the starter to try to revive it? 1 tsp from the
> original to feed, then another from that batch, then another...etc? Do
> I throw out the rest of the original that I took the 1tsp from? Thanks
> again, Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

On 20 Oct 2005 12:43:49 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
wrote:

>Ok, if I'm understanding correctly...I would have 4 (or more) different
>containers from the starter to try to revive it? 1 tsp from the
>original to feed, then another from that batch, then another...etc? Do
>I throw out the rest of the original that I took the 1tsp from? Thanks
>again, Rick

Hello again,

I apparently did not communicate well...

No, all you need is two containers, one for each of the
starters you are trying to revive.

Yes, after you take out the 1 tsp. you can toss the
remainder.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

GROWTH!!!

Thanks to all of you for the help you gave me in bringing back my two
starters. I was quite surprised at how nature just hangs on to
survive!!

I do have another question, though. How "sour" should these starters
taste? I am new at this (like you couldn't tell LOL) and wondered.
Mine are both very sour tasting and if I use them, would I have to add
alot of sugar to overcome that very sour taste? AGain, I'm new and am
not even very sure of the best way to use these...so any help or
direction would be appreciated.

Thanks again,
Rick in CO


Kenneth wrote:
> On 20 Oct 2005 12:43:49 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, if I'm understanding correctly...I would have 4 (or more) different
> >containers from the starter to try to revive it? 1 tsp from the
> >original to feed, then another from that batch, then another...etc? Do
> >I throw out the rest of the original that I took the 1tsp from? Thanks
> >again, Rick
>
> Hello again,
>
> I apparently did not communicate well...
>
> No, all you need is two containers, one for each of the
> starters you are trying to revive.
>
> Yes, after you take out the 1 tsp. you can toss the
> remainder.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Rick in CO wrote:
> GROWTH!!!
>
> Thanks to all of you for the help you gave me in bringing back my two
> starters. I was quite surprised at how nature just hangs on to
> survive!!
>
> I do have another question, though. How "sour" should these starters
> taste?

That's tough to answer - taste buds are very unreliable with this and -
it's a question of taste as well. Whatever your preference in taste and
shape of your bread is.

Best is if you observe activity and take notes - temperature and time,
and if you compare, it's also good to use the same hydration.

If it's active, keep deflating, every couple of hours and if activity
gets less, you are at or beyond the peak of activity.

That's a good point to know because you may want to use your starter at
top performance.

From there, ferment your bread to your liking. If at top performance,
1/2 hour of fermentation can make a noticeable difference in sourness of
the final bread.

The other way is to pick a recipe, follow it and modify when necessary.

> I am new at this (like you couldn't tell LOL) and wondered.
> Mine are both very sour tasting and if I use them, would I have to add
> alot of sugar to overcome that very sour taste?

Sugared bread to offset sourness - yuk! (my opinion)

If it's too sour, you are fermenting too long.

Use a 3-stage process to grow your starter, a simple one is to triple
three times whenever it starts to get active, and the last stage a bit
longer.

That should give you a viable starter to work with.

How you continue from there is another issue and I don't want to go into
that because you have not posted your bread recipe.

The thing is if you want a consistent result, you'll need to develop
some discipline to take notes to be able to repeat what you are doing.
You can get good bread also without "discipline", by "feel", but that's
hard to communicate in a newsgroup.

Samartha (also in CO - and so is Mike Avery)

Hooch is not a nice-sounding word, and I wish you would
stop saying it.

You can say supernatant.

It is irrelevant anyway because there is nothing in it of biological
importance. The microorganisms settle out.

Anyway, in a well-tended culture, it should not been seen.

--
Dicky

Rick in CO wrote:
> GROWTH!!!
>
> Thanks to all of you for the help you gave me in bringing back my two
> starters. I was quite surprised at how nature just hangs on to
> survive!!
>
> I do have another question, though. How "sour" should these starters
> taste?
As sour as you want them to taste. Don't worry what other people think.
You're the one eating it.

> I am new at this (like you couldn't tell LOL) and wondered.
> Mine are both very sour tasting and if I use them, would I have to add
> alot of sugar to overcome that very sour taste?
Sugar will increase the osmotic pressure on the yeasts and bacilli, it
could be detrimental if you use too much.

If your culture is too sour don't ferment for as long or use less
starter in your final dough. The taste of your bread should meet the
requirements of you and your family not someone you who you don't know.
There's no scale that I know of anyway to be able to say yay sour.

> AGain, I'm new and am
> not even very sure of the best way to use these...so any help or
> direction would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks again,
> Rick in CO
>
>

"jimbob" > wrote:

>The taste of your bread should meet the
>requirements of you and your family not someone you who you don't know.
>There's no scale that I know of anyway to be able to say yay sour.

But: I took a fresh loaf of Poilane bread to a gathering of friends....
somebody tore off a chunk, sniffed, tasted, and said, "Ooh.... sourdough!"
The bread didn't last the hour...

FWIW, I rather like colorful words. But then, I'm a George Carlin fan...


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On 21 Oct 2005 15:40:42 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
wrote:

>
>Kenneth wrote:
>> On 20 Oct 2005 12:43:49 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Ok, if I'm understanding correctly...I would have 4 (or more) different
>> >containers from the starter to try to revive it? 1 tsp from the
>> >original to feed, then another from that batch, then another...etc? Do
>> >I throw out the rest of the original that I took the 1tsp from? Thanks
>> >again, Rick
>>
>> Hello again,
>>
>> I apparently did not communicate well...
>>
>> No, all you need is two containers, one for each of the
>> starters you are trying to revive.
>>
>> Yes, after you take out the 1 tsp. you can toss the
>> remainder.
>>
>> All the best,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

>GROWTH!!!
>
>Thanks to all of you for the help you gave me in bringing back my two
>starters. I was quite surprised at how nature just hangs on to
>survive!!
>
>I do have another question, though. How "sour" should these starters
>taste? I am new at this (like you couldn't tell LOL) and wondered.
>Mine are both very sour tasting and if I use them, would I have to add
>alot of sugar to overcome that very sour taste? AGain, I'm new and am
>not even very sure of the best way to use these...so any help or
>direction would be appreciated.
>
>Thanks again,
>Rick in CO
>

Hi Rick,

You have already seem other good comments, but I will add a
thought...

Try not to think of the starter as a "flavoring" that you
add to the dough.

Instead, (and for some this is a subtle distinction) I'd
suggest that you think of the starter as the source of the
critters that raise, and also flavor the finished bread.

So, follow Samartha's good advice: When the starter is very
active, it will provide greater benefit to the finished
bread. When the starter itself tastes very sour, it is
probably well past the point at which it has the greatest
potential contribution to the bread.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

jimbob" > wrote:
>>The taste of your bread should meet the
>>requirements of you and your family not someone you who you don't >>know.
>>There's no scale that I know of anyway to be able to say yay sour.

>But: I took a fresh loaf of Poilane bread to a gathering of friends....
>somebody tore off a chunk, sniffed, tasted, and said, "Ooh.... >sourdough!"
>The bread didn't last the hour...

How is this a "But" Gary? How are you contradicting what Jim said? Or
do you only have euphemistic "friends". Are they really people you
don't know?

Jane

Thanks to you all. I'm still not too sure about this. OK, I have this
great starter...that is pretty sour tasting in my frige, and that could
mean that it's been over-fermented? Should I take just a small amount
of this approximately 3 cups worth and start all over? Also, when
feeding, I've been adding flour, water and sugar...is that ok?

I think you make a good point in thinking of it as a "rising" agent for
the bread.

What amount of starter is would you recommend to keep on hand for
someone that might use it to make a couple of loaves of bread say, once
every couple of weeks?

Also, does it matter what dimensions the plastic container is for
storing it? Does it have to be wide at the bottom for better growth
and fermenting?

Where would you direct me for some good recipes for bread using this?

Thanks again,

Rick in CO

On 23 Oct 2005 15:53:52 -0700, "Rick in CO" >
wrote:

>Thanks to you all. I'm still not too sure about this. OK, I have this
>great starter...that is pretty sour tasting in my frige, and that could
>mean that it's been over-fermented? Should I take just a small amount
>of this approximately 3 cups worth and start all over? Also, when
>feeding, I've been adding flour, water and sugar...is that ok?
>
>I think you make a good point in thinking of it as a "rising" agent for
>the bread.
>
>What amount of starter is would you recommend to keep on hand for
>someone that might use it to make a couple of loaves of bread say, once
>every couple of weeks?
>
>Also, does it matter what dimensions the plastic container is for
>storing it? Does it have to be wide at the bottom for better growth
>and fermenting?
>
>Where would you direct me for some good recipes for bread using this?
>
>Thanks again,
>
>Rick in CO

Hi Rick,

You should feed your starter with flour and water only.
There is no need for any sugar.

In terms of an amount to store in the refrigerator:

When I want to store mine, I take about a teaspoon of active
starter and add flour to it and knead it with my fingers. I
keep adding flour and kneading until I can't get any more
flour into it. At that point, I have a piece about the size
of a walnut and it feels like rather firm clay. I pop that
into a small screw top plastic container, tighten the lid,
and put it in the refrigerator.

In that state, it is good for many months.

When I want to bake, I pinch off a piece, put it in a
plastic container, and add equal weights of flour and water.
I stir it up, leave it, and later in the day, I can see
signs that it is active once again. I take a few
teaspoonfuls of that newly activated starter, add equal
weights of flour and water, and repeat the feeding process I
have just described.

By the way, as I am bringing the old starter back to life, I
always leave the remainder of the old lump in the
refrigerator. That way, if there is some sort of disaster, I
don't lose my "original" stock.

When I am up and running, I repeat the add flour to make it
feel like clay routine, discard the old lump, clean the jar,
put in the lump, close the top, and forget about it until I
am baking again.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

???

jimbob wrote:

> If your culture is too sour don't ferment for as long or use less
> starter in your final dough.

If you use less starter, in other words a larger refreshment, you will
have to ferment for longer to get the same degree of leavening.

The question then is whether leavening happens faster or slower than
souring.

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Yes, I might have not mentioned. One was started with potato water and
the other with milk. A couple of things...should I feed the milk one
with milk only as the liquid when feeding?

Also, I've read as much as I can and there seems to be two different
opinions about what to do with the hooch. I've found people who say to
mix it in, as it gives the sourdough it's unique flavor, and others
that say throw it out as it adds nothing to the end product. What is
the groups experiences with both ways?

On 29 Oct 2005 08:08:18 -0700, "Rick in CO" > wrote:

> . . . there seems to be two different
>opinions about what to do with the hooch. I've found people who say to
>mix it in, as it gives the sourdough it's unique flavor, and others
>that say throw it out as it adds nothing to the end product. What is
>the groups experiences with both ways?

I mix it in; Ed Woods of SDI fame says to mix it in. So, there you go
.. . .
Don R.

Don R. wrote:
> On 29 Oct 2005 08:08:18 -0700, "Rick in CO" > wrote:
>
>
>>. . . there seems to be two different
>>opinions about what to do with the hooch. I've found people who say to
>>mix it in, as it gives the sourdough it's unique flavor, and others
>>that say throw it out as it adds nothing to the end product. What is
>>the groups experiences with both ways?
>
>
> I mix it in; Ed Woods of SDI fame says to mix it in. So, there you go
> . . .
> Don R.
>
lately i have been throwing mine out, however i have also noticed the
the flavor of my finished bread has changed too. the lack of hooch may
not be the reason, yet i would be interested what others are doing.

dan w

Hi, the 'hooch' sitting on top can't be any different from the liquid
mixed in further down. As you want to lower the pH it seems to make
sense to tip it away. After all you won't be tipping it all away just
incase there's something important in there. The last lot that I tipped
away activated much quicker than I was expecting. But It's my habit to
mix it in so I sometimes forget if I'm not being mindful. The last few
batches I've stored have been made into a thick past a la Kenneth, I
know you got the idea from someone else but you get the credit from me
: -), so I've no idea how much hooch is going to be left from these.

Take care,

Jim

Hi Rick,

I wouldn't add sugar if I were you. If you want to see for sure divide
your starter into two and feed one half with your usual feed and one
half with just flour and water. See which one does best.

You don't need recipes Rick. Learn about hydration. Rustic bread has
higher hydrations around the 70's the down to the late 50's for firmer
free form loaves and tortillas. It's up to you how you do it. It all
comes down to different shaping and proofing regimes.

Do you think that a different shaped container will make much
difference to how your culture feeds?

Do some experiments and see what suits you best.

This is a good method. It works well.
http://joejaworski.com/bread/bread1.htm

Jim