Despite Mike Avery's gloomy prediction that I was pushing the cart
uphill, I am persisting in my attempts to make 50% rye bread with
whole-rye flour (all I can get in this neck of the woods).

However, my diagnosis of my initial problem was incorrect. My first
attempt (about 77% hydration according to my calculations) gave a dough
that was somewhat sticky, rose adequately in my bread-pans but sank a
bit during the bake.

I thought that the problem was the hydration and cut that back to 73%.
The dough _felt_ a lot better, but the rise in the bread-pans was very
poor (despite allowing an extra hour for the rise) and the rise during the
bake was zero (the baked bread still tastes great!).

For the record, in both attempts, the preferments behaved as they should
and the dough volume tripled during the first rise. But the second rise
(in the bread-pans) and the oven-spring need more encouragement.

Which way do I jump?

And - for good measure - here is a second query, that may also impact on
my rye-baking <attempts|failures>.

Hamelman describes the preparation of a "stiff" <culture|levain> (50-60%
hydration) and a "liquid" <culture|levain> (125+% hydration). And how to
convert one into the the other when the need arises.

But when does the need arise? Especially as the cultures used in many
of his own rye recipes fall between the two (80% hydration) and also
differ from his recipe for a rye starter (100% hydration).

Felix Karpfen
-
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> Despite Mike Avery's gloomy prediction that I was pushing the cart
> uphill, I am persisting in my attempts to make 50% rye bread with
> whole-rye flour (all I can get in this neck of the woods).
>
> However, my diagnosis of my initial problem was incorrect. My first
> attempt (about 77% hydration according to my calculations) gave a dough
> that was somewhat sticky, rose adequately in my bread-pans but sank a
> bit during the bake.
>
> I thought that the problem was the hydration and cut that back to 73%.
> The dough _felt_ a lot better, but the rise in the bread-pans was very
> poor (despite allowing an extra hour for the rise) and the rise during the
> bake was zero (the baked bread still tastes great!).

Felix,

with 50 % rye you are still in the realm of wheat flour/gluten development.

What I mean is that rise is influenced by wheat gluten but you have not
mentioned much about this aspect (except one hour longer and two rises),
how you treat your dough - mixing/kneading, rise, fermentation times
after mixing/kneading and the like.

Maybe that's something to look at?

I just found by accident last weekend that a shorter second rise by the
same total fermentation time appears to give a more compact loaf - i. e.
higher rise and less wide. That was with a 40 % rye bread and some full
grain flour (all starter and 30 % wheat). (I am rising the loafs in a
basket.)

What you say that you ferment one hour longer and get less rise could
indicate over fermentation. On the other side, lower hydration could
mean less rise because it's a stiffer dough.

Hard to tell.

And - you should be able to rise 100 % full grain rye as a free form
loaf and make a decent rye bread. It will be denser, need higher
hydration, more sticky, shorter rising/fermentation, if at all and
tinkering how to handle such a sticky glob and get it in the oven in one
piece.

> For the record, in both attempts, the preferments behaved as they should
> and the dough volume tripled during the first rise. But the second rise
> (in the bread-pans) and the oven-spring need more encouragement.
>
> Which way do I jump?
>
> And - for good measure - here is a second query, that may also impact on
> my rye-baking <attempts|failures>.
>
> Hamelman describes the preparation of a "stiff" <culture|levain> (50-60%
> hydration) and a "liquid" <culture|levain> (125+% hydration). And how to
> convert one into the the other when the need arises.
>
> But when does the need arise?

Apparently, it hasn't yet, so it's an abstract question. If there isn't
a particular recipe in his book asking for that and no explicit
mentioning of advantages/disadvantages or when to use what, one can only
guess - there are so many screws to turn on this box.

To convert from one hydration to another should be a non-brainer. Just
grow (assuming you do a multi stage) so the final hydration is what you
want - that's what I would do.


Samartha

On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 19:20:49 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote
ountainbitwarrior.com>):

> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>
> with 50 % rye you are still in the realm of wheat flour/gluten development.

That was why I settled for 50% rye.
>
> how you treat your dough - mixing/kneading, rise, fermentation times
> after mixing/kneading and the like.
>
I was too brief.

I succeeded well with 15% rye and with "25% rye + 25% whole wheat".
I tried to use the same knead routine with the 50% rye, but cut it a
bit short because the dough, after coming together well, looked as
though it was falling apart again. So my total knead time was 2
minutes less than I was aiming for.

What bothered me is that - in the end - the stickier (more hydrated)
dough gave the better second rise.
>
> I just found by accident last weekend that a shorter second rise by the
> same total fermentation time appears to give a more compact loaf - i. e.
> higher rise and less wide. That was with a 40 % rye bread and some full
> grain flour (all starter and 30 % wheat). (I am rising the loafs in a
> basket.)

And using a paddle to get the dough into the oven! Something that I
may aspire to - if I live long enough
>
> What you say that you ferment one hour longer and get less rise could
> indicate over fermentation. On the other side, lower hydration could
> mean less rise because it's a stiffer dough.
>
> Hard to tell.

Probably both.
>
> And - you should be able to rise 100 % full grain rye as a free form
> loaf and make a decent rye bread.
>
I will _definitely_ not live long enough to see that!

For the record, I have just tried the "Westphalian Pumpernickel"
recipe that uses 100% rye. I will wait 3 days before I attempt to
cut into it. But I feel certain that it would have fallen apart in
the oven it it had not been in a mould.

The following observations may also mean something. The dough was a
sticky mess (no surprise); both the first and the second rise were fast
and substantial (surprise); during the bake (16 hours at 100° C) the
bread shrank - both from the top _and_ from the sides (surprise); and
the (warm) bread showed signs of wanting to fall apart when taken out of
the mould and allowed to cool upside down on a rack - it went back into
the mould pronto (surprise).

>>
>> Hamelman describes the preparation of a "stiff" <culture|levain> (50-60%
>> hydration) and a "liquid" <culture|levain> (125+% hydration). And how to
>> convert one into the the other when the need arises.
>>
>> But when does the need arise?
>
> Apparently, it hasn't yet, so it's an abstract question.
>
Not entirely.

My 125% hydration preferments work well with Hamelman's time cycle
(used successfully in the Pumpernickel described above). I am not
satisfied that the "stiff" preferment gets its act together in the
suggested time and temperature. Spotting a "slight cave-in" in a
bulge is more difficult than seeing when the liquid preferment has
stopped rising.

Thank you for the advice.

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:34:52 +1000, Felix Karpfen
> wrote:

>> And - you should be able to rise 100 % full grain rye as a free form
>> loaf and make a decent rye bread.
>>
>I will _definitely_ not live long enough to see that!


Hi Felix,

With all rye...

Have you tried the technique of dipping you hands in cool
water before touching the dough for forming? It works
extremely well.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:03:07 -0400, Kenneth wrote
>):

> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:34:52 +1000, Felix Karpfen
> > wrote:
>
>>> And - you should be able to rise 100 % full grain rye as a free form
>>> loaf and make a decent rye bread.
>>>
>>I will _definitely_ not live long enough to see that!
>
>
> With all rye...
>
> Have you tried the technique of dipping you hands in cool
> water before touching the dough for forming? It works
> extremely well.

Thank you for the advice.

And, for the record, I have profited greatly from your previous
advice to use a straightsided (translucent) container for the rises.
That made it a lot easier to identify when the peak-activity of the
fermentation had been reached!

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 06:28:02 +1000, Felix Karpfen
> wrote:

>On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 18:03:07 -0400, Kenneth wrote
>):
>
>> On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 06:34:52 +1000, Felix Karpfen
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> And - you should be able to rise 100 % full grain rye as a free form
>>>> loaf and make a decent rye bread.
>>>>
>>>I will _definitely_ not live long enough to see that!
>>
>>
>> With all rye...
>>
>> Have you tried the technique of dipping you hands in cool
>> water before touching the dough for forming? It works
>> extremely well.
>
>Thank you for the advice.
>
>And, for the record, I have profited greatly from your previous
>advice to use a straightsided (translucent) container for the rises.
>That made it a lot easier to identify when the peak-activity of the
>fermentation had been reached!
>
>Felix

Hi Felix,

Thanks for your kind comments...

The thing with the cold water really is counter-intuitive.

I remember struggling with a high hydration 100% rye dough
years ago. The thing was like a blob of paste.

Then I read about the water idea (in a book by Greenstein
IIRC) and thought "What nonsense! This thing is so soft and
sticky now... adding water will just increase my problems.

In any case, it worked! And, I have no real idea why.

All the best, and thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> In any case, it worked! And, I have no real idea why.

Because rye dough absorbs water slowly.

Samartha

On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:19:44 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> In any case, it worked! And, I have no real idea why.
>
>Because rye dough absorbs water slowly.
>
>Samartha

Hi Samartha,

Well, yes it does, but there is something more to it in my
view.

Were it only the absorption rate of the dough, the water
added to the surface by dipping my hands would make the
dough more difficult to handle, but would reveal the
difficulty slowly.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:19:44 -0600, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Kenneth wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In any case, it worked! And, I have no real idea why.
>>
>>Because rye dough absorbs water slowly.
>>
>>Samartha
>
>
> Hi Samartha,
>
> Well, yes it does, but there is something more to it in my
> view.

Well, if you want more - take the "slime" factor.

With dry hands, the adhesion between skin and outer layer of the rye
loaf will be greater than the inner structural coherence of the loaf and
the outer layer.

That's why, as you touch the loaf, the outer layer will stick to your
skin and rip off the loaf.

With wet hands, the adhesion between your skin and the dough surface
will be lowered below the ripping force of the dough surface. That's why
you can touch and manipulate the loaf with wet hands, not rip the
surface and have dough sticking to your hands.

I see as a reason that there is a thin layer of "slime" i. e. relatively
thin emulsion of some grain material and water surrounding the loaf,
once water is brought upon.

The "slime" can be much easier washed off the hands than when the dough
gets ripped off and starts sticking between your fingers on both hands.


Samartha

>
> Were it only the absorption rate of the dough, the water
> added to the surface by dipping my hands would make the
> dough more difficult to handle, but would reveal the
> difficulty slowly.

If the absorption rate would be higher, there would be not enough water
long enough to have the effect.

>
> All the best,

On Fri, 07 Oct 2005 16:15:26 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> On Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:19:44 -0600, Samartha Deva
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Kenneth wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>In any case, it worked! And, I have no real idea why.
>>>
>>>Because rye dough absorbs water slowly.
>>>
>>>Samartha
>>
>>
>> Hi Samartha,
>>
>> Well, yes it does, but there is something more to it in my
>> view.
>
>Well, if you want more - take the "slime" factor.
>
>With dry hands, the adhesion between skin and outer layer of the rye
>loaf will be greater than the inner structural coherence of the loaf and
>the outer layer.
>
>That's why, as you touch the loaf, the outer layer will stick to your
>skin and rip off the loaf.
>
>With wet hands, the adhesion between your skin and the dough surface
>will be lowered below the ripping force of the dough surface. That's why
>you can touch and manipulate the loaf with wet hands, not rip the
>surface and have dough sticking to your hands.
>
>I see as a reason that there is a thin layer of "slime" i. e. relatively
>thin emulsion of some grain material and water surrounding the loaf,
>once water is brought upon.
>
>The "slime" can be much easier washed off the hands than when the dough
>gets ripped off and starts sticking between your fingers on both hands.
>
>
>Samartha
>
>>
>> Were it only the absorption rate of the dough, the water
>> added to the surface by dipping my hands would make the
>> dough more difficult to handle, but would reveal the
>> difficulty slowly.
>
>If the absorption rate would be higher, there would be not enough water
>long enough to have the effect.
>
>>
>> All the best,

Hi Samartha,

I really appreciate your response. What you have written
makes great sense to me.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well, Darrell, it looks like they have all left ...

Maybe over to the Google group where everyone is nice*?

Maybe scurrying around to find some esoteric grain or stuff
to make their loaves rise, or some protection against rye slime?

What about the redneck Brit -- he was good. Pain English!

Hey, Wow!

Well, gotta go to the store now, for some bread.

--
Dicky

_____________________
* http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sourdough/

Dick Adams wrote:
> Well, Darrell, it looks like they have all left ...
....
> Well, gotta go to the store now, for some bread.

The sourdough spirit will always be with you - don't despair (buying
bread and such), you'll be ok.

If you 're bored, you could try out a 30 % rye, I just upgraded my DM3-calc:

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi

to have the 30 % in - the 20 % is nice but a bit on the light side and
40's I have done a lot. So, the 30 % seems like a nice change.

He http://maps.google.com/maps?q=longmont

it's raining the second day - one more to go - snowing on some places,
12"+ in the mountains, some power outages. Time to order grain and rye
flour and pick up a bag at http://www.bsm.com/rockymountainmilling/ to
try the 30 % and more.

Another story - a young woman working at a bakery (story significantly
shortened) got interested in sourdough and was very surprised that,
after asking how much it would cost her, to get some of my starter, that
I would give it to her for free.

Then, after explaining that this is a product of a natural process
started by mixing rye and water, and this should be common knowledge of
people, like making a cake, she was able to comprehend the issue.

Seems that new generations are growing up in a world of legal
restrictions - intellectual properties, penalized for music sharing etc.
and making those artificial corporate ideas a general concept of their
reality.

Sharing sourdough can change that. I think it should!

Samartha

Samartha Deva wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> Well, Darrell, it looks like they have all left ...
>
> ...
>
>> Well, gotta go to the store now, for some bread.
>
>
> The sourdough spirit will always be with you - don't despair (buying
> bread and such), you'll be ok.
>
> If you 're bored, you could try out a 30 % rye, I just upgraded my
> DM3-calc:
>
> http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi
>
> to have the 30 % in - the 20 % is nice but a bit on the light side and
> 40's I have done a lot. So, the 30 % seems like a nice change.
>
> He http://maps.google.com/maps?q=longmont
>
> it's raining the second day - one more to go - snowing on some places,
> 12"+ in the mountains, some power outages. Time to order grain and rye
> flour and pick up a bag at http://www.bsm.com/rockymountainmilling/ to
> try the 30 % and more.
>
> Another story - a young woman working at a bakery (story significantly
> shortened) got interested in sourdough and was very surprised that,
> after asking how much it would cost her, to get some of my starter, that
> I would give it to her for free.
>
> Then, after explaining that this is a product of a natural process
> started by mixing rye and water, and this should be common knowledge of
> people, like making a cake, she was able to comprehend the issue.
>
> Seems that new generations are growing up in a world of legal
> restrictions - intellectual properties, penalized for music sharing etc.
> and making those artificial corporate ideas a general concept of their
> reality.
>
> Sharing sourdough can change that. I think it should!
>
> Samartha
>
>
>

Open Source bread...