Another, and hopefully last, set of questions about malted rye.

When the Russian recipes call for malted rye, are they calling for the
grain or an extract?

If the grain, how is it prepared for use in bread making?

Thanks,
Mike

The books I own specify the grain. The most common recipe for
Borodinsky bread specifies 80% whole rye flour, 5% "red" rye malt, and
15% wheat flour. That's the extent of the flour and it includes the
malt.

"Red" refers to fermented, or toasted rye malt, which loses its
diastatic properties due to the heat treatment. The untoasted malt is
called "white," and can be either rye or barley malt. Different breads
call for one or the other. Borodinsky calls for fermented "red" rye
malt, while Riga bread takes unfermented "white" malt.

The malting procedure is not usually described in Russian bread books.
I have a very detailed description in a book about kvas production
(Proizvodstvo kvasa, V.V. Rudol'f, 1982, p. 56), since kvas relies on
rye malt of either the "red" or "white" type. Rather than translate the
long chapter on malting, I can tell you that it comes down to soaking
the grain, sprouting it, and stopping the procedure at the right time.
In the case of red malt, a heat treatment is given at the end of the
procedure and loses most or all of its diastatic properties. White malt
is simply dried.

I have made my own rye malt and used it to flavor bread. You just soak,
sprout, and toast at around 55-60 C. They describe a huge industrial
quantity, so the toasting goes on for days, but I do a tiny household
amount (maybe one pound), so my toasting goes quickly. I aim for
non-diastatic red rye malt by holding it at 60 C. or above. It conforms
to the recipe and does not pose a danger of converting too much dough
starch to sugar.

Actually, the ground red rye malt that I make smells a lot like Grape
Nuts cereal. If you want an easy way out, I guess you could grind Grape
Nuts to equal the 5% of the malt in the Borodinsky recipe. But it's
more fun to sprout your own. It makes your house smell like a brewery.

Ron

I use maris otter 2 fow barley for borodinsky--it too smells and tastes
like grape nuts. (I wonder if it's "red" or "white"?) I tried some
wheat malt, which smelled more grape-nutty--but the flavor wasn't as
pronounced after scalding.

Ron wrote:
> Actually, the ground red rye malt that I make smells a lot like Grape
> Nuts cereal. If you want an easy way out, I guess you could grind Grape
> Nuts to equal the 5% of the malt in the Borodinsky recipe. But it's
> more fun to sprout your own. It makes your house smell like a brewery.

"Ron" > wrote in message
oups.com...

....
>
> Actually, the ground red rye malt that I make smells a lot like Grape
> Nuts cereal. If you want an easy way out, I guess you could grind Grape
> Nuts to equal the 5% of the malt in the Borodinsky recipe. But it's
> more fun to sprout your own. It makes your house smell like a brewery.

I'd love to malt any grain but didn't know it was possible in a domestic
situation. Can you givemore details on how you do it, please?

In the meantime I'll try some Grape Nuts, I havea good stock of those for
breakfast!

Mary
>
> Ron
>

I start by buying the whole grain, but be prepared for the volume to
swell at least 5 times or more, so don't place the grain up to the top
in a container--leave lots of room.

What you essentially are doing is starting the root of a seed, as would
be the case for any seed you'd plant in your garden. But, instead of
soil, you're doing it only with water. The rye, wheat, or barley sprout
is just the root of the plant.

I start by soaking the grain with room temperature water (cold from the
tap) for several hours (up to 8 or so). Strain off the water through a
sieve, colander, etc. and let the sprouts remain in a covered
container. Temperature controls the rate of growth, but I'm not fussy
about that and just use room temperature. Twice a day I rinse the
sprouts with cold water from the tap. I let the water cover them for a
minute or so and then strain it off, as in the first step.You want to
make sure that they always are moist, but that there is not a pool of
water at the bottom.

When the root is of the size you want (I can't say exactly--maybe 1/2
inch), rinse, drain and toast in the oven at around 150 F.

They create several layers in my oven pan and the top layer dries out
first, so you have to stir them to make sure that the middle and lower
layers also dry out.

When they're completely dry, cool at room temperature. When cool, you
can store them in a container. Eventually, you grind them like any
grain for use. You could add this flour to bread dough, use in a scald
(=zavarka), or make it into a kind of cookie, which will give you
home-made Grape Nuts when broken into bits.

You can find many internet websites for sprouting. Just search for
"sprouting" in Google.

Here is one such example from: http://chetday.com/sprouts.html, that
will work for wheat, rye, etc.

"Wheat, including Kamut and Spelt: Soak 8-14 hours, sprout 1-1.5 days.
Method: cloth or jar. Hard Winter wheat better than soft Spring wheat.
Wheat can get excessively sweet at 2+ days of sprouting. Spelt has nice
texture, but spelt and kamut are more expensive than ordinary wheat.
Wheat, rye, kamut, spelt, triticale can be used for grass also."

Ron

"Ron" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I start by buying the whole grain, but be prepared for the volume to
> swell at least 5 times or more, so don't place the grain up to the top
> in a container--leave lots of room.
>
> What you essentially are doing is starting the root of a seed, as would
> be the case for any seed you'd plant in your garden. But, instead of
> soil, you're doing it only with water. The rye, wheat, or barley sprout
> is just the root of the plant.
>
> I start by soaking the grain with room temperature water (cold from the
> tap) for several hours (up to 8 or so). Strain off the water through a
> sieve, colander, etc. and let the sprouts remain in a covered
> container. Temperature controls the rate of growth, but I'm not fussy
> about that and just use room temperature. Twice a day I rinse the
> sprouts with cold water from the tap. I let the water cover them for a
> minute or so and then strain it off, as in the first step.You want to
> make sure that they always are moist, but that there is not a pool of
> water at the bottom.
>
> When the root is of the size you want (I can't say exactly--maybe 1/2
> inch), rinse, drain and toast in the oven at around 150 F.
>
> They create several layers in my oven pan and the top layer dries out
> first, so you have to stir them to make sure that the middle and lower
> layers also dry out.
>
> When they're completely dry, cool at room temperature. When cool, you
> can store them in a container. Eventually, you grind them like any
> grain for use. You could add this flour to bread dough, use in a scald
> (=zavarka), or make it into a kind of cookie, which will give you
> home-made Grape Nuts when broken into bits.
>
> You can find many internet websites for sprouting. Just search for
> "sprouting" in Google.
>
> Here is one such example from: http://chetday.com/sprouts.html, that
> will work for wheat, rye, etc.
>
> "Wheat, including Kamut and Spelt: Soak 8-14 hours, sprout 1-1.5 days.
> Method: cloth or jar. Hard Winter wheat better than soft Spring wheat.
> Wheat can get excessively sweet at 2+ days of sprouting. Spelt has nice
> texture, but spelt and kamut are more expensive than ordinary wheat.
> Wheat, rye, kamut, spelt, triticale can be used for grass also."

Thank you, that's given me something to work on.

Mary
>
> Ron
>

By the way, if you are a regular user of coarse rye chops (i.e.
Schrot), you can now use your freshly made malt as a basis for Schrot
in Vollkornbrot. I thought about this, then could not resist running a
Google search on "Malzschrot" and "Vollkornbrot." E.g. "rustikales
Roggenmischbrot, welches durch die Malzflocken und den Malzschrot einen
besonders w=FCrzigen Geschmack aufweist," found on
http://www.geha-muehlen.de/shop/. (a rustic mixed rye, which displays
an especially spicy flavor thanks to malt flakes and crushed malt).

I haven't tried it yet, but just make your regular Vollkornbrot with
malt in place of the whole and crushed rye grains.

(I would have search for this in English, but I could not quite come up
with good seach equivalents for Malzschrot and Vollkornbrot.)

"Ron" > wrote in message
oups.com...
By the way, if you are a regular user of coarse rye chops (i.e.
Schrot), you can now use your freshly made malt as a basis for Schrot
in Vollkornbrot. I thought about this, then could not resist running a
Google search on "Malzschrot" and "Vollkornbrot." E.g. "rustikales
Roggenmischbrot, welches durch die Malzflocken und den Malzschrot einen
besonders würzigen Geschmack aufweist," found on
http://www.geha-muehlen.de/shop/. (a rustic mixed rye, which displays
an especially spicy flavor thanks to malt flakes and crushed malt).

I haven't tried it yet, but just make your regular Vollkornbrot with
malt in place of the whole and crushed rye grains.

(I would have search for this in English, but I could not quite come up
with good seach equivalents for Malzschrot and Vollkornbrot.)

If you're telling me this I admit that I don't understand a word of it:-)

I'm English, I live in England! But thanks anyway <G>

Mary

Actually, it applies to anyone. I'm English-speaking and live in the
US, but I like Northern European rye breads, among them the German
Vollkornbrot and Russian Borodinsky. I also like to look at the Russian
and German language descriptions of these breads (perhaps since I'm a
linguist by profession).

As to the German Vollkornbrot (or whole grain bread), it's usually made
with a quantity of very coarsely ground rye and may have whole grains
as well. The coarsely ground rye and whole rye grains are usually not
malted, but it just occurred to me that one might use malted version of
them. So, if you malt your own and come into limitless supplies of
malt, you might also think of using the malt as ingredients in
Vollkornbrot, both in the form of coarsely ground malt (Schrot) and the
entire grains. I hope that's more comprehensible.

Ron

Here's a link to an English language recipe for Vollkornbrot. It should
have been attributed to Dan Leader, but wasn't.

http://whatscookin.proboards6.com/in...d=1122176 276

This should bring everyone up to speed about what Vollkornbrot is.

Ron

"Ron" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Actually, it applies to anyone. I'm English-speaking and live in the
> US, but I like Northern European rye breads, among them the German
> Vollkornbrot and Russian Borodinsky. I also like to look at the Russian
> and German language descriptions of these breads (perhaps since I'm a
> linguist by profession).

Yes, but I suspect that USA has more German traditional products - and
words - than Britain :-)
>
> As to the German Vollkornbrot (or whole grain bread), it's usually made
> with a quantity of very coarsely ground rye and may have whole grains
> as well. The coarsely ground rye and whole rye grains are usually not
> malted, but it just occurred to me that one might use malted version of
> them. So, if you malt your own and come into limitless supplies of
> malt, you might also think of using the malt as ingredients in
> Vollkornbrot, both in the form of coarsely ground malt (Schrot) and the
> entire grains. I hope that's more comprehensible.

Not only comprehensible, it's very tempting!

As a wartime child, during restrictive food rationing, we were 'dosed' with
malt extract and malt and cod liver oil as food supplements. I consumed them
eagerly, they were delicious! In more prosperous times I experienced the
malty taste of Horlicks and enjoyed that too. I've made bread using malt
extract in an attempt to get the flavour but never with the success I hoped
for. Commercial malted flours (using sprouted wheat grains) are quite good
but I'd prefer to experience the process from the beginning. Sadly, I can't
grow my own grains but you can't have everything!

Thanks for your explanation.

Mary

> Ron
>

"Ron" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Here's a link to an English language recipe for Vollkornbrot. It should
> have been attributed to Dan Leader, but wasn't.
>
> http://whatscookin.proboards6.com/in...d=1122176 276
>
> This should bring everyone up to speed about what Vollkornbrot is.

Thank you again, I'll try it.

Mary
>
> Ron
>

Mike Avery wrote:
> Another, and hopefully last, set of questions about malted rye.
>
> When the Russian recipes call for malted rye, are they calling for the
> grain or an extract?
>
They explicitly call for malt grain.

> If the grain, how is it prepared for use in bread making?

I assume you are interested in how to prepare (bought) malt for baking
grain and not in malting the grain.
It is in the threads
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...e30d99c78dcf08
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/...53e802d4dca2bc
If it is wrong assumption, you will find all the info you need at
rec.crafts.brewing. This group rocks!

I'd want to stress the point that the preparation method described in
the above threads is exactly the same as in the baking industry adapted
for home baking environment.

>>"Red" refers to fermented, or toasted rye malt, which loses its
>>diastatic properties due to the heat treatment. The untoasted malt is
>>called "white," and can be either rye or barley malt. Different breads
>>call for one or the other. Borodinsky calls for fermented "red" rye
>>malt, while Riga bread takes unfermented "white" malt. (Ron)
They use "fermnted" and "unfermented" rye malt, and "white" barley
malt.
I am not sure that "fermented" rye malt=toasted rye malt but meanwhile
didn't find the answer. Anyway I have a feeling that that is not such a
big difference in using "fermented" or "unfermented" rye malt because
the recipes for both I have encountered are very much alike.

Leonid

On Wed, 17 Aug 2005 09:42:20 +0100, Mary Fisher wrote
>):

> **I've made bread using _malt extract_ in an attempt to get the flavour
> but never with the success I hoped for.** Commercial malted flours
> (using sprouted wheat grains) are quite good

Lurking diligently sometimes provides the answers to "what you have always
wanted to know but were afraid to ask"!

"Mashing grains" to me (as a beer brewer) meant getting the malt extract
and throwing away the rest. From that point on, I failed to understand
correctly the posted advice on baking breads that include malted grains as
one of the ingredients.

At least that point has now been cleared up.

But what doeth it profit a man to be able to read German, if the mentioned
ingredients are not procurable in the local (Australian) shops?

Rye meal (from the HealthFood store) - yes; Schrot (chopped rye) - no;
malted rye grain - no; rye grain for malting (now that I have understood
the advice) - perhaps; malted barley grain - yes.

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

I don't even know if Schrot is procurable where I live since I use my
handy Italian Schrot machine to make it:

http://www.thewholetruth.org/Res_Oat.htm. I also use it to crush my
malted rye grains.

I originally bought the thing (called Marga) by mistake, thinking it
would grind grain into fine flour, but it turned out to be useful for
making either coarse Schrot, fine Schrot, or flakes (it has 3
settings). It's made by the same company that makes pasta cutting
machines and the same table clamp and crank are provided as for the
pasta machines.

The company's website is http://www.marcato-omc.com/, but I had trouble
locating the Marga on it, although dozens of other Marga purveyors have
websites. I have heard that home brewers really like the Schrot making
capabilities of the Marga, but I only use it for bread.

Ron

I was surprised to learn that the Margas are so popular that there are
"mods" for them with homemade motors. It looks like they are giving
motorcycles a run for their money. Not to mention the fact that Schrot
is a lot better for your health than riding a motorcycle, even with a
helmet.

See: http://www.nwlink.com/~badger/margamill.html.

Another nice Marga posting:

http://tinyurl.co.uk/dbjr