I started a batch of sourdough starter about a week ago using the water &
whole wheat flour method described at sourdoughhome.com I used it to make
waffles with after the 3rd day. It looked nice & bubbly, so last night I
decided to make the recipe for SF Sourdough Bread listed also at
sourdoughhome.com
I mixed it up last night and kneaded, Kneaded, and KNEADED to try to get it
to pass the "windowpane test." Finally, after 35 min., I gave up. It
seemed like it might be just a tad too dry. Anyhow, I put it in a large
Tupperware bowl, covered it, and set it out on the counter to rise. 12 hrs.
later, it didn't look like much, if anything, had happened. So, I put the
bowl out in the garage where it's a bit warmer (which is also where I keep
my starter). 14 hrs. into this process, I'm still not seeing any
progression. How much longer should/can I wait before I just scrap it and
start over?
Thanks!

--
"Everything matters...there's no such thing as irrelevancy."

Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:

>I started a batch of sourdough starter about a week ago using the water &
>whole wheat flour method described at sourdoughhome.com I used it to make
>waffles with after the 3rd day. It looked nice & bubbly, so last night I
>decided to make the recipe for SF Sourdough Bread listed also at
>sourdoughhome.com
>
>
When you get a recipe from someone, or someone's web site, you might ask
them for advice before hitting the web. That way, the chance that some
web site will look bad because of an error you might have made will be
reduced.

>I mixed it up last night and kneaded, Kneaded, and KNEADED to try to get it
>to pass the "windowpane test." Finally, after 35 min., I gave up. It
>seemed like it might be just a tad too dry.
>
Too dry is always a problem. Dough would rather be too wet than too dry.

> Anyhow, I put it in a large Tupperware bowl, covered it, and set it out on the counter to rise. 12 hrs. later, it didn't look like much, if anything, had happened. So, I put the
>bowl out in the garage where it's a bit warmer (which is also where I keep my starter). 14 hrs. into this process, I'm still not seeing any progression. How much longer should/can I wait before I just scrap it and start over?
>
>
Scrap it now. When I make that bread, it usually doubles in a matter of
single-digit hours.

I suspect that you haven't been feeding your starter often enough, and
that your dough was too dry. When your starter is still developing, and
it is at room temperature, you need to feed it at least twice a day,
doubling or tripling its volume with each feeding.

Each feeding should be 1/2 water and 1/2 flour by weight, or 1 part
water to 1 1/2 parts flour by volume.

If you don't feed it that often at room temperature, it will slow down,
fade away, and eventually die.

Also, if you are refrigerating your starter, you need to feed it a time
or two to restore it before using it to make bread.

Mike

Thanks for the help!
As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
Sorry!
Shelby

Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:

> Thanks for the help!
> As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
> where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
> Sorry!

You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.

The pertinent information:
Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
Registrant Contact:
GTNC
Mike Avery )

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

>Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:
>
>
>
>>Thanks for the help!
>>As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
>>where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
>>Sorry!
>>
>>
>
>You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
>it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.
>
>The pertinent information:
>Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
>Registrant Contact:
>GTNC
>Mike Avery )
>
>
I thought it was a very nice reaction. I didn't call anyone names or
insult their intelligence. And, I gave constructive advice.

Mike

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:43:08 -0700, Brian Mailman wrote:

> Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the help!
>> As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
>> where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
>> Sorry!
>
> You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
> it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.
>
> The pertinent information:
> Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
> Registrant Contact:
> GTNC
> Mike Avery )
>
> B/

It's not very nice to post someone else's totally valid email address on
usenet unless you have specific permission. 'Bot's harvest these addresses
on behalf of spammers.

--Mac

I'm confused...the site I mentioned is also the site where I ordered Mike
Avery's book. If I did something wrong, I apologize!
Shelby

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
> it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.
>
> The pertinent information:
> Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
> Registrant Contact:
> GTNC
> Mike Avery )
>
> B/
>

Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:

>I'm confused...the site I mentioned is also the site where I ordered Mike
>Avery's book. If I did something wrong, I apologize!
>Shelby
>
>

You didn't do anything wrong. In any sense. Brian was, more than
anything, poking fun at me for my reply to you.

Mike

Mac wrote:

>On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:43:08 -0700, Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>
>
>>Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Thanks for the help!
>>>As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
>>>where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
>>>Sorry!
>>>
>>>
>>You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
>>it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.
>>
>>The pertinent information:
>>Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
>>Registrant Contact:
>>GTNC
>>Mike Avery )
>>
>>B/
>>
>>
>
>It's not very nice to post someone else's totally valid email address on
>usenet unless you have specific permission. 'Bot's harvest these addresses
>on behalf of spammers.
>
>

Given that I put it on every note sent to this newsgroup, I don't think
its a real infraction. My spam filters work pretty well.

Mike

Getting back to the topic, I've made half a dozen batches of bread over the
last couple months, and I've never gotten it to rise to the point where
there are big holes in the bread. One batch was so moist it started
drooping over the edges of the baking pans. Other batches have been dry.
They usually proof for many hours, and I've been feeding the starter/sponge
heavily for a day or two after taking it out of the fridge, where it only
stays for maybe three or four days before being used again, although it is
at 50F/10C. The loaves are a total of at least 4 cups flour per loaf in 9"
pans.

One possibility is if you put in too much starter. Then it might rise
faster initially, but there might not be as much food left, so it might
peter out sooner. I've been using about 25% sponge, maybe just a little
bit more. Otherwise, what could it be? Maybe some strains just don't
produce as much CO2? I'm in the midwest, where it's in the 90s these days,
so maybe those lazy summer strains are winning out right now.

I only used 1/4 c. starter in mine. But, I think Mike is right...I needed
to feed the starter more often (I was only doing it once a day), and my
bread dough was too dry. I, too, am in the Midwest! (IL)
So, I try again tomorrow

"Another Dan" > wrote in message
...
> One possibility is if you put in too much starter. Then it might rise
> faster initially, but there might not be as much food left, so it might
> peter out sooner.

Something that I have noticed is that sourdough, unlike conventional
yeasted dough, will never pass the "windowpane" test. In my experience,
sourdough does best if you just combine the ingredients then let the
glutin develop by itself as it ferments.

>Something that I have noticed is that sourdough, unlike conventional
>yeasted dough, will never pass the "windowpane" test.

It depens maybe..... as the french levain raiaed dough when mixed
mechanically( by a machine )can attain that degree( window pane test).
easily.
But unfortunately the bread taste a bit bland than when compared to the
dough that is just partly mixed( not more than three quarters
cdeveloped). where the bread flavor is more prominent.
In addition the fully mixed sourdough( in my observation )tends to
stale faster than the undermixed one. Quite peculiar if compared to
bakers yeast raised dough.
Roy

Mike Avery wrote:

> Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:
>
>>I'm confused...the site I mentioned is also the site where I ordered Mike
>>Avery's book. If I did something wrong, I apologize!
>
> You didn't do anything wrong. In any sense. Brian was, more than
> anything, poking fun at me for my reply to you.

Yar, just a bit . I didn't think she was slandering your site; I do
recommend it often, actually.

B/

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:42:09 -0600, Mike Avery wrote:

> Mac wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 17:43:08 -0700, Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Thanks for the help!
>>>>As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
>>>>where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
>>>>Sorry!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>You might want to do a -whois on the site to check out where and who
>>>it's registered to so see why you got such a reaction.
>>>
>>>The pertinent information:
>>>Domain name: sourdoughhome.com
>>>Registrant Contact:
>>>GTNC
>>>Mike Avery )
>>>
>>>B/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>It's not very nice to post someone else's totally valid email address on
>>usenet unless you have specific permission. 'Bot's harvest these addresses
>>on behalf of spammers.
>>
>>
>
> Given that I put it on every note sent to this newsgroup, I don't think
> its a real infraction. [...]
>
> Mike

Good point. I should have noticed or checked before I spouted off.

;-)

--Mac

Mac wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:42:09 -0600, Mike Avery wrote:
>
>>>
>>>It's not very nice to post someone else's totally valid email address on
>>>usenet unless you have specific permission. 'Bot's harvest these addresses
>>>on behalf of spammers.
>>
>> Given that I put it on every note sent to this newsgroup, I don't think
>> its a real infraction. [...]

> Good point. I should have noticed or checked before I spouted off.

I'm kinda surprised no one's pointed out you included the
possible-offending address in your dressing-down....

B/

wrote:

>Something that I have noticed is that sourdough, unlike conventional
>yeasted dough, will never pass the "windowpane" test. In my experience,
>sourdough does best if you just combine the ingredients then let the
>glutin develop by itself as it ferments.
>
>

I have no trouble getting to pass a windowpane test. White flour, whole
wheat, or mixed.

Mike

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.5.1123719261.79781.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

> I have no trouble getting to pass a windowpane test.

I can't -- that is, my sourdough never could.

Sourdough does not clean the mixer bowl down to shiny, either.

It is a constant mystery why bookwriters can do that test with=20
sourdough.

Maybe we should define that test very narrowly if we go on with this
discussion. Like what size newspaper headline font should be=20
readable through the "window"? At what distance? =20

Or did you mean that a doughball would stick to a windowpane it was
thrown at?

--
Dicky

Hi Shelby-
I am not one of the pros on this list but I have a couples comment and
a suggeston.

> I started a batch of sourdough starter about a week ago using the water &
> whole wheat flour method described at sourdoughhome.com

> 12 hrs.
> later, it didn't look like much, if anything, had happened.

Mike Avery is one of those pros and I second his suggestions. I do
think you should continue refreshing your starter until it's stronger.
You can look at the FAQs for frequency and amounts, Mike gave you
amounts.

> I mixed it up last night and kneaded, Kneaded, and KNEADED to try to get it
> to pass the "windowpane test." Finally, after 35 min., I gave up. It
> seemed like it might be just a tad too dry.

Wetter is better as Mike said, in fact sourdough breads can be *very*
wet, or as they say, have a high hydration. And as for kneading, Mike
kept quiet about the fact you don't need to knead. <G> But if you are
kneading, that is relatively a brief process. If you keep going you'll
deminish the quality of your bread. The starter you are using, referred
to as a preferment, does most of the work for you in gluten
development. According to Hamelman with overmixing "the entire
structure of the dough unknits." (p8)

My suggestion is that you go to your library and borrow a couple books
(and then once you borrow them enough times like I have done, you'll
decide you simply must own them <G>).
I just bought and love Jeffrey Hamelman's new book "Bread: A Baker's
Book of Techniques and Recipes"
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
I equally love Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice"
Another great reference is Dan Wing and Alan Scott wrote the wonderful
"The Bread Builders"

I do really encourage you to borrow them first because they are written
at a different level from most other bread books for home bakers. Both
Hamelman and Reinhart are teachers and their audience is more to the
professional baker than the home baker. They refer to bakers
percentages and they use the language of bread baking, like
"hydration". If you find you're not scared off by this then there is a
lot to be gained from their material. I really appreciate the detailed
explainations of what is going on when we go through the various steps
in making bread.

There is a great deal available on line you can stick to. I am dyslexic
and find it very hard to work from the computer screen for this kind of
reading. And I just think these books are great!

If you decide to jump in and buy, I have found amazon.com to be the
cheapest. Don't bother looking for used copies. The great bread books
like these never are let go of as far as I can tell.

(Don't get put off by the fellows... sometimes I think the yeast gets
to them, and in Mike's case, I now see, the altitude. They're really
very nice, and extremely helpful.)

Enjoy!
-Marylouise
home baker, SF bay

Hi again Shelby-

> I'm confused...the site I mentioned is also the site where I ordered Mike
> Avery's book.

Mike has a book? Well, look at that! Not only that but
sourdoughhome.com is his site? Honestly, I have referred so many
people to that site and have read Mike's posts here and on other lists
and even had a couple private emails with him and I had no idea he was
the guy up there in the mountains! How cool. Thanks for inadvertently
putting that 2 and 2 together for me.

-Marylouise
SF Bay

Dick Adams wrote:

>It is a constant mystery why bookwriters can do that test with
>sourdough.
>
>
No, not really.

>Maybe we should define that test very narrowly if we go on with this
>discussion. Like what size newspaper headline font should be
>readable through the "window"? At what distance?
>
>
I think we may have discovered the problem you are having.

The goal is to be able to stretch the dough thinly enough that light
will pass through it without the dough tearing. (To clarify, the light
won't tear the dough in any case, what we are concerned about is the
actions involved in stretching the dough not tearing the dough.)

You don't need to be able to read through it. Just see light through it.

What sort of light? Normal daylight coming in a window. Light from a
60 watt or so light bulb. Not a search light. Not a firefly. Just
normal intensity light you could read by if you have fairly normal vision.

>Or did you mean that a doughball would stick to a windowpane it was
>thrown at?
>
>
>
That depends on a number of things, but has nothing to do with the
windowpane test.

Mike

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Shelby-
> I am not one of the pros on this list but I have a couples comment and
> a suggeston.
>
> My suggestion is that you go to your library and borrow a couple books
> (and then once you borrow them enough times like I have done, you'll
> decide you simply must own them <G>).

I agree wholeheartedly on this one.

> I just bought and love Jeffrey Hamelman's new book "Bread: A Baker's
> Book of Techniques and Recipes"

Got it. Love it.

> I equally love Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice"

Read it. Don't have it yet. Got it through interlibrary loan at my local
library.

> Another great reference is Dan Wing and Alan Scott wrote the wonderful
> "The Bread Builders"

Haven't read it yet. On my to read list.
>
> I do really encourage you to borrow them first because they are written
> at a different level from most other bread books for home bakers.

Very good selection. You may find you don't like them. And they are not real
cheap books.

>
> There is a great deal available on line you can stick to.

Only problem is that you have to winnow out the chaff.

>
> If you decide to jump in and buy, I have found amazon.com to be the
> cheapest. Don't bother looking for used copies. The great bread books
> like these never are let go of as far as I can tell.

I have found several of them at http://www.abebooks.com. Reasonably priced
if you watch and compare the shipping charges.

Gordon in SW Indiana

Gordon Hayes wrote:

> I have found several of them at http://www.abebooks.com. Reasonably priced
>
>if you watch and compare the shipping charges.
>
>
>
I've found abebooks to be pretty high at times.

I usually check http://www.half.com or http://isbn.nu

Mike

Shelby A. LaMothe wrote:

>Thanks for the help!
>As far as the website I listed, I was under the impression this newsgroup is
>where I needed to go for help...that this newsgroup was part OF that site.
>Sorry!
>
>
I'll reread that page on my web site and see what I can do to clarify
things. With regards to news groups, I recommend this and two other
baking related newsgroups. I port all three of them to mailing lists
for the convenience of people who don't like news reader software
(people such as me). However, none of them are related to my
sourdoughhome web site.

As to mailing lists, I also run a mailing list called "baking fun" that
is independent of the newsgroups, and not really tied to the
sourdoughhome web site. Its for people who get tired of the occaisional
rudeness that seems to infect usenet from time to time.

Mike

>"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...


> Or did you mean that a doughball would stick to a windowpane it was
> thrown at?


More likely to to be useful as caulk around the frame ....


Ellen

Ellen wrote:

>
>
>>"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
>>
>>
...
>
>
>
>
>>Or did you mean that a doughball would stick to a windowpane it was
>>thrown at?
>>
>>
>
>
>More likely to to be useful as caulk around the frame ....
>
>
>

Probably not.... it dries out and becomes brittle. People are no
longer using it as log cabin chinking either.... pastic and rubber based
compounds are much better for these purposes. Even if you can't use
them to re-start a sourdough culture.

Mike

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> I just bought and love Jeffrey Hamelman's new book "Bread: A Baker's
> Book of Techniques and Recipes"
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846
> I equally love Peter Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice"
> Another great reference is Dan Wing and Alan Scott wrote the wonderful
> "The Bread Builders"
>
>
You might also take a look at:
http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=151

Graham

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.6.1123730875.79781.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

> I think we may have discovered the problem you are having.

How many "I's" are "We"? Is it true that you have become a
bookwriter, or otherwise some lofty icon or guru?

To restate, the problem here is not being able to see through
dough, but I suppose if its backside is brilliantly enough lit, I
might be able to do it. Raises the possibility of a one-step
enteric exam.

I thought originally that it had to do with being able to read
newsprint though it.

Well, here is my "not rising" comment. It will be expanded in=20
my first book *The Dough Also Rises*.

Considering the sigmoidal growth curve, and applying it to
microorganismical growth in dough, once you have passed
through the straight semilogarithmical region and flattened out,=20
you are flubbered. So the name of the game is "stay log-linear"
so long as possible. (Then rot your dough a bit, and bake it.)

Related to my bread-making method:=20
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
I have illustrated that at::
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF

(Please email me if any of that seems credible to any of you.)

Seriously, I believe that people should take some science and
math in high-school. If you don't, or didn't, you will have some
problems. Finding the flaws in the Administration's arguments and
proposals is one (group) of them. After that, breadflubbing is=20
rather insignificant.

By the way, regards to Instructions.doc, steps 5 and 6 can
be eliminated, so the activated starter seeds the dough directly.
The activated starter should be wildly active if that is to be done.
--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
P.S. Samartha's page has stuff about the growth curve:
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10
The sigmoidal ("S" shaped) portion would be that portion
up to the stationary phase. Well, it doesn't look too much
like an "S" to me! So what??!!!

Dick Adams wrote:

>"Mike Avery" > wrote ...
>
>
>
>>I think we may have discovered the problem you are having.
>>
>>
>
>How many "I's" are "We"? Is it true that you have become a
>bookwriter, or otherwise some lofty icon or guru?
>
>
You already knew that - you've raked me over the coals for having
written a book several times, and crabbed because I wrote more words
than you deemed necessary. You explained how to bake your favorite
bread in a page, so no one else should have to write more than that
seemed to be your argument.

>To restate, the problem here is not being able to see through
>dough, but I suppose if its backside is brilliantly enough lit, I
>might be able to do it. Raises the possibility of a one-step
>enteric exam.
>
>
>
I think the amount of light was fairly well explained in the part of the
text you snipped.

>I thought originally that it had to do with being able to read
>newsprint though it.
>
>
>
Nope. Not in any book I've read.

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:

> Gordon Hayes wrote:
>
>> I have found several of them at http://www.abebooks.com. Reasonably priced
>>
>>if you watch and compare the shipping charges.

> I've found abebooks to be pretty high at times.
>
> I usually check http://www.half.com or http://isbn.nu

It may be like much of anything else... depends on what you're looking
for, etc etc etc. Caveat emptor and all that. I was once told by
Amazon that a set of books I was looking for was out of stock and some
months later produced *one* of the trilogy at $30, and that one was not
in the best of shape. abebooks had the entire set immediately for $30
in the original shrinkwrap.

B/

Dick Adams wrote:

> Well, here is my "not rising" comment. It will be expanded in
> my first book *The Dough Also Rises*.

....and the sequel, "The Loafin' Spoonful."

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

>Mike Avery wrote:
>
>
>
>>I've found abebooks to be pretty high at times.
>>
>>I usually check http://www.half.com or http://isbn.nu
>>
>>
>
>It may be like much of anything else... depends on what you're looking
>for, etc etc etc. Caveat emptor and all that. I was once told by
>Amazon that a set of books I was looking for was out of stock and some
>months later produced *one* of the trilogy at $30, and that one was not
>in the best of shape. abebooks had the entire set immediately for $30
>in the original shrinkwrap.
>
>
>

I sell a lot of books at half.com. We always research prices when we
list them, and abebooks is a regular seller on half.com. abebooks is
similar to half.com in that they broker books for clients. And the
clients set the prices.

Overall, I find abebooks to be consistently in the upper third of prices
listed on half.com.

isbn.nu is nice in that it searches many, many on-line booksellers and
returns all the prices it finds. I just checked a few books there ("The
Taste of Bread" by Calvel and "Wizards First Rule" by Terry Goodkind)
and abebooks was listed there, and was consistently high.

Mike

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1123767074.79781.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> >
>
> Probably not.... it dries out and becomes brittle. People are no
> longer using it as log cabin chinking either.... pastic and rubber based
> compounds are much better for these purposes. Even if you can't use
> them to re-start a sourdough culture.
>

It does do a wonderful job of chinking up the holes in a kitchen sponge and
not a halfbad job on countertops but it really shines in being able to stick
to the ceiling when an overful closed container of the stuff accidently gets
left on the countertop overnite -- of course this last adventure was with a
rye sour/starter so white flour cultures may be less gravity defying.

Ellen

>
>Related to my bread-making method:
>http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc
>I have illustrated that at::
>http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
>
>(Please email me if any of that seems credible to any of you.)
>
Even with high school math charts with generic (or no) scales are not
very meaningful.

Also, I suggest you make a page out of the word document you now have
because .doc files are easy to hijack and infect with a virus.

Ephraim F. Moya
http://moya.us/MoyaFamily/
------------------
"Los pintos y los pendejos
se conocen desde lejos."

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005 10:02:06 -0700, Brian Mailman wrote:

> Mac wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 22:42:09 -0600, Mike Avery wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>It's not very nice to post someone else's totally valid email address on
>>>>usenet unless you have specific permission. 'Bot's harvest these addresses
>>>>on behalf of spammers.
>>>
>>> Given that I put it on every note sent to this newsgroup, I don't think
>>> its a real infraction. [...]
>
>> Good point. I should have noticed or checked before I spouted off.
>
> I'm kinda surprised no one's pointed out you included the
> possible-offending address in your dressing-down....
>
> B/

Good of you to rectify the matter.

Not to good a move on my part!

Although, it is the same thread, so the damage was already done.

--Mac

"Ephraim F. Moya" > in message =
...

commented on =
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
as follows:

> Even with high school math charts with generic (or no) scales are not
> very meaningful.

Yes, I know it is pretty hopeless. Well, the graphic is to illustrate =
my
contention that, through the refreshments, the preferments should be
kept fermenting very actively, and so with the dough until last part of
the rise when the fermentation presumably shifts to primarily bacterial.

The growth curve, which relates population size to time, (generically
if you wish) also could describe us. Well, maybe not all of us, but=20
possibly your clan ( http://moya.us/MoyaFamily/ ). In the end, the=20
resources are consumed and growth flattens out and eventually=20
population wanes, not to mention what happens to the media=20
(e.g. atmosphere, hydrosphere, etc.).

The following page describes the growth curve:
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10

> Also, I suggest you make a page out of the word document you=20
> now have because .doc files are easy to hijack and infect with a=20
> virus.

Well, *.doc files are certainly not nearly so hazardous as attempting=20
to capture your own sourdough culture. =20

Hazards lurk at every junction.

--
Dicky

Thanks, Graham.
Have a great weekend. I'm off to the county fair in the best of all
possible fairgrounds!
-Marylouise
graham wrote:

> You might also take a look at:
> http://planeguy.mine.nu/bread/index....n=faq&page=151
>
> Graham