G'day all;

I'm pretty sure that tortillas weren't invented less than a hundred years
ago, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start out being made with baking
powder.

So-o-o I'm presuming that they were originally made with sourdough somewhere
in the preceding years. I've hunted all around, and can't find anything to
support that assertion. Anybody ever done a SD tortilla? If so, care to
share the recipe? Otherwise I'm gonna hafta start from scratch and invent
one...(:-o)!


TIA,
Dusty

Dusty Bleher wrote:
> G'day all;
>
> I'm pretty sure that tortillas weren't invented less than a hundred years
> ago, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start out being made with baking
> powder.
>
> So-o-o I'm presuming that they were originally made with sourdough somewhere
> in the preceding years. I've hunted all around, and can't find anything to
> support that assertion. Anybody ever done a SD tortilla? If so, care to
> share the recipe? Otherwise I'm gonna hafta start from scratch and invent
> one...(:-o)!
>
>
> TIA,
> Dusty
>
>

Corn tortillas have been made for at least 600 years, probably much
longer. The early Spanish explorers found the natives of the western
hemisphere using flattened corn cakes as part of their diet. The
development of New World flour tortillas is more recent and can
possibly be linked to the emigration of Sephardic Jews who brought
their flat unleavened cakes of wheat flour to the New World during
the early Spanish colonial period of Mexico and the Southwestern area
of what is now the United States. I don't think sourdough has ever
been a part of flour tortilla tradition, and I doubt you'll find
traditional recipes for sourdough tortillas.

Rich

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm pretty sure that tortillas weren't invented less than a hundred years
> ago, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start out being made with baking
> powder.

And they aren't made with baking powder today, either. Or at least they
shouldn't be.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

Rich McCormack wrote:

> I don't think sourdough has ever been a part of flour tortilla
> tradition, and I doubt you'll find traditional recipes for sourdough
> tortillas.

Well, since they're flatbreads...

Possibly, with the baking powder mention, Dusty is thinking of Indian
Fry Bread, which would seem to be a derivation of a thicker flour
tortilla called a 'gordita" (little fat girl).

I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
pocketless pita.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

>I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
>pocketless pita.
>

The pocket in the pita comes from intense heat, not the riser. I have
no trouble making pitas with pockets with sourdough.

Mike

"Rich McCormack" > wrote in message
...
....
> Corn tortillas have been made for at least 600 years, probably much
> longer. The early Spanish explorers found the natives of the western
> hemisphere using flattened corn cakes as part of their diet. The
> development of New World flour tortillas is more recent and can
> possibly be linked to the emigration of Sephardic Jews who brought
> their flat unleavened cakes of wheat flour to the New World during
> the early Spanish colonial period of Mexico and the Southwestern area
Hmmm. Interesting point, thanks, Rich. I hadn't considered that flour
tortillas (the ones that I like) aren't as old as corn. But that would
indeed make sense.

> of what is now the United States. I don't think sourdough has ever
> been a part of flour tortilla tradition, and I doubt you'll find
> traditional recipes for sourdough tortillas.
Yep. That's been my experience to date...

Thanks again,
Dusty

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> Rich McCormack wrote:
>
>> I don't think sourdough has ever been a part of flour tortilla
>> tradition, and I doubt you'll find traditional recipes for sourdough
>> tortillas.
>
> Well, since they're flatbreads...
>
> Possibly, with the baking powder mention, Dusty is thinking of Indian Fry
> Bread, which would seem to be a derivation of a thicker flour tortilla
> called a 'gordita" (little fat girl).
Well, possibly, but a tortilla is still just a tortilla. I believe the
recipe is the same for all of them. Not so?

> I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
> pocketless pita.
And *that* would be just about perfect! As Mike A. pointed out, the pocket
comes from the heat not the material (as I found out last evening as I was
fooling around with a BP batch). And I would think that a thinner version
of a pita would look and taste pretty much like the tortilla flavor and
texture that I'm after.

I made some last night, using baking powder. But they came out more
yellowish than those that I buy...and didn't have the right taste. The
ingredients list does mention baking-powder, but it also has a laundry list
of things I can't pronounce. I also think that I used too much fat in them,
as the finished product felt greasy, not nice and "dry" like the ones I buy
ready made. Also, while most of the recipes I did find used water, a few
used milk. I make give that a shot as well...

I once watched a Mexican lady sitting at a fire hand making 'em from what
looked like flour & water. They were flour, but I didn't see her mixing 'em
up, only finish 'em off. So I'm hopeful that it won't take too long to nail
down a workable recipe. And yes, they were incredibly yummy!

I know that currently available flour tortillas do use a leavening (baking
powder), so I had (apparently incorrectly) presumed that older ones did as
well. If not, then I'm going to have to invent a modern day tortilla that
does use SD, as I'm not eager to use BP.

Since the only flour I have in the house if bread-flour, I'm probably also
gonna run out and get some AP. Seems that I read somewhere in my research
that at least one author recommended that BF *not* be used.

Okay, y'all have given me some ideas. And thank you, Brian, for that Pita
analogy. Thanks!


Thanks again all,
Dusty

>
> B/

"Hal Laurent" > wrote in message
...
....
>> I'm pretty sure that tortillas weren't invented less than a hundred years
>> ago, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start out being made with
>> baking powder.
> And they aren't made with baking powder today, either. Or at least they
> shouldn't be.
Well, I've been looking at a lot of tortilla recipes lately, and at the risk
of disagreeing with you my friend, I believe that you're wrong. *ALL* of
the recipes I found for (_flour_) tortillas, used baking powder.

Now, that they *shouldn't* have to be made with BP, there we're in complete
agreement. And that is the purpose of both my search and quest...

OTOH; if you have some other--more apropos--information, I'm more than happy
to hear/read it and change my tune...

Absent some other suggestions, I'm going to start modifying my SD pita
recipe and see where that leads... Stay tuned folks...


Dusty
San Jose
>
> Hal Laurent
> Baltimore
>
>

Would you please post a recipe?



In article
<mailman.10.1120839399.6853.rec.food.sourdough@mai l.otherwhen.com>,
Mike Avery > wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> >I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
> >pocketless pita.
> >
>
> The pocket in the pita comes from intense heat, not the riser. I have
> no trouble making pitas with pockets with sourdough.
>
> Mike
>

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...

> Well, I've been looking at a lot of tortilla recipes lately, and at the
> risk of disagreeing with you my friend, I believe that you're wrong.
> *ALL* of the recipes I found for (_flour_) tortillas, used baking powder.

The flour tortilla recipe from Diana Kennedy's "The Cuisines of Mexico"
calls for:

1 pound of all-purpose flour
1/4 pound lard or shortening
2 teaspoons salt
1 cup hot water

This is for 24 6-inch tortillas.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

"Hal Laurent" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Well, I've been looking at a lot of tortilla recipes lately, and at the
>> risk of disagreeing with you my friend, I believe that you're wrong.
>> *ALL* of the recipes I found for (_flour_) tortillas, used baking powder.
>
> The flour tortilla recipe from Diana Kennedy's "The Cuisines of Mexico"
> calls for:
>
> 1 pound of all-purpose flour
> 1/4 pound lard or shortening
> 2 teaspoons salt
> 1 cup hot water
>
> This is for 24 6-inch tortillas.

Another sighting: the 1997 edition of The Joy of Cooking has a recipe for
flour tortillas with the same ingredients (I didn't check to see if the
proportions are the same).

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

Mike Avery wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>>I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
>>pocketless pita.
>>
>
> The pocket in the pita...

....hides the flagon with the dragon...

> comes from intense heat, not the riser. I have
> no trouble making pitas with pockets with sourdough.

I was not thinking of a fully-risen bread dough but one that would
produce a flatbread: that is, a tortilla.

B/

Dusty Bleher wrote:

> I made some last night, using baking powder. But they came out more
> yellowish than those that I buy...and didn't have the right taste.

Just to throw in a monkey wrench, what't the gluten content of Mexican
flours? Maybe that has something to do with the texture.

B/

"Hal Laurent" > wrote in message
...
....
>> Well, I've been looking at a lot of tortilla recipes lately, and at the
>> risk of disagreeing with you my friend, I believe that you're wrong.
>> *ALL* of the recipes I found for (_flour_) tortillas, used baking powder.
>
> The flour tortilla recipe from Diana Kennedy's "The Cuisines of Mexico"
> calls for:
>
> 1 pound of all-purpose flour
> 1/4 pound lard or shortening
> 2 teaspoons salt
> 1 cup hot water
>
> This is for 24 6-inch tortillas.
Interesting. Thank you Hal. I will give this recipe a shot over the
weekend.

It's the first one I've seen w/o baking powder (except for a few that I
found with "baking soda"--which I suspect wuz a typo...).

If you care to follow along, I've written up my various preliminary recipes
he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../tortillas.htm


Dusty

>
> Hal Laurent
> Baltimore
>
>

> made some last night, using baking powder. But they came out more
>yellowish than those that I buy...and didn't have the right taste
Dusty the alkaline reaction of the baking powder with the flour
components produced that yellowish tinge....
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> made some last night, using baking powder. But they came out more
>>yellowish than those that I buy...and didn't have the right taste
> Dusty the alkaline reaction of the baking powder with the flour
> components produced that yellowish tinge....
Hmmm, interesting. I've made other things with BP and don't recall them
ever looking yellow tinged. My biscuits, for instance, are perfectly
flour-white. And, FWIW; use almost the same formula as the tortilla recipe
that I was using.

Just out of curiosity, that being the case, why don't commercially prepared
tortillas do that as well? Cuz of all of the other "stabilizers" and things
they also add?

At any rate, thanks for the tip. Maybe using Hal's no-BP recipe will take
care of that. If not, there's always my soon-to-be-ready for prime-time SD
tortilla recipe...(:-o)!


Thanks again, Roy,
Dusty

> Roy
>

>Hmmm, interesting. I've made other things with BP and don't recall them
>ever looking yellow tinged. My biscuits, for instance, are perfectly
>flour-white. And, FWIW; use almost the same formula as the tortilla recipe >
>that I was using.

indeed not all I could have not baked cakes without them.....Some
baking powders that have slight excess sodium bicarbonate to phosphate
ratio tend to exhibit that...it makes the white cake crumb a bit
creamy to yellowish....Even some scones I made with such kind of baking
powder exhibits that creamy yellowish shade.
That is due to alkaline pH
..In cakes to counteract that we add a bit of cream of tartar to
slightly offset the alkalinity and maintain the whiteness...I don't
know if that will work with tortillas.....
But tortillas has baking powder range of 1-1.5 % based on flour, if
you use more that might be the case of affecting dough color as the
tortilla dough is not that acidic .
You also said that it does not taste right meaning its likely you added
more baking powder which contributed to the off taste. And off color.

>Just out of curiosity, that being the case, why don't commercially prepared
>ortillas do that as well? Cuz of all of the other "stabilizers" and things
>they also add?
They are added for a purpose ...Basing from myr reference and examining
its functionality..its no different from the ingredients declaration
of industrial bread I am used to<g>.
And that is how they do it in large xcale...
Generally institutional wheat tortilla formulations have these
ingredient range( from Technical book written by flat bread authority
Jalal Qarooni(1996) titled "Flat bread technology" ISBN0-412-08111-3
where it displays the ingredient list.but did not explain its function.
Flour 100%
Water 50-54%
Fat 6-14%
Salt 1.3-2%
Baking powder 1-1.5%

Regarding stabilizers they add guar or cellusoe gum to improve
texture;and hydration consistency that varies from flour to flour.
to make sheeting easier they add sodium bisulfite, to relax the
gluten.
Now to counteract the stress of the sheeting and recover gluten
strenght they add SSL(sodum stearoyl lactylate) to make it retain its
shape and stability.
To prolong shelf life they add acidulant and its salts
Sodium/calcium propionate( preservative 0.2% or potassium
sorbate/sorbic acid 0.3%
Now Dusty , does the ingredients I mentioned t sound like what you read
from your LAUNDRY LIST?<G>.
It is just unfortunate that I prefer the Spanish version of tortillas
.........and frittatas <g>

BTW.. a sourdough tortilla is more akin to a sourdough raised pita
bread than the mexican influenced delica
Roy

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Mike Avery wrote:
>
>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>>> I'd think with sourdough, one would achieve something more like a
>>> pocketless pita.
>>>
>>
>> The pocket in the pita...
>
>
> ...hides the flagon with the dragon...

Ah - another lover of classic cinema!

Dave

Roy wrote:
> BTW.. a sourdough tortilla is more akin to a sourdough raised pita
> bread than the mexican influenced delica

I heard that somewhere before.... actually, now that I'm thinking about
it, Israeli Boy Scouts are taught to make a flatbread from rolled out
flour and water that's a kind of pocketless pita called a 'taboun' (also
the name of the oven used, although they use grill covers or even
shovels, I'm told).

While I can't find a recipe for it (everyone I've ever asked looks at me
like I've asked for a recipe for "salad" it seems to be that common)
here's a description of it:

http://www.minfo.gov.ps/view_point/e.../03-03-04b.htm

A picture of it being made:

http://www.glue.umd.edu/~mnino/palestine.html

and a recipe using it, the dish described above:

http://www.jmcc.org/ptw/2000/Feb/recipe.htm

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> Roy wrote:
>> BTW.. a sourdough tortilla is more akin to a sourdough raised pita
>> bread than the mexican influenced delica
>
> I heard that somewhere before.... actually, now that I'm thinking about
> it, Israeli Boy Scouts are taught to make a flatbread from rolled out
> flour and water that's a kind of pocketless pita called a 'taboun' (also
> the name of the oven used, although they use grill covers or even shovels,
> I'm told).
>
> While I can't find a recipe for it (everyone I've ever asked looks at me
> like I've asked for a recipe for "salad" it seems to be that common)
> here's a description of it:
>
> http://www.minfo.gov.ps/view_point/e.../03-03-04b.htm
>
> A picture of it being made:
>
> http://www.glue.umd.edu/~mnino/palestine.html
>
> and a recipe using it, the dish described above:
>
> http://www.jmcc.org/ptw/2000/Feb/recipe.htm
Yeah. All of these links are certainly interesting, and everything sounds
warm and homey. But NOWHERE have I been able to find a recipe for those
taboun. Doing a Google search on ' "taboun bread" recipe ' yields only
_TWO_ entries; one of which is your link above...the other is using
it...<big sigh!>

At any rate, the foods they described sound absolutely yummy! I'd love to
wander that countryside and sample some of that fare...


Later all,
Dusty

>
> B/

Dusty Bleher wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Roy wrote:
>>> BTW.. a sourdough tortilla is more akin to a sourdough raised pita
>>> bread than the mexican influenced delica
>>
>> I heard that somewhere before.... actually, now that I'm thinking about
>> it, Israeli Boy Scouts are taught to make a flatbread from rolled out
>> flour and water that's a kind of pocketless pita called a 'taboun'...
>>
>> While I can't find a recipe for it ...

> Yeah. ... But NOWHERE have I been able to find a recipe for those
> taboun. Doing a Google search on ' "taboun bread" recipe ' yields only
> _TWO_ entries; one of which is your link above...the other is using
> it...<big sigh!>

Think I said that... as well as all variations on the orthography since
it's not a Latin alphabet, and I own a mailing list with close to 2,000
members and a couple hundred Israelis and none of them have ever come up
with an exact recipe so I'm not just using google--it's like I said,
everyone knows, there's no need for a recipe. You just do it.

The point is... this is what a sourdough "tortilla" would be, I believe.
Just make a dough, let it sit for a couple hours, roll it out thinly
and "bake" it on a hot surface. Lavosh may be similar.

B/

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Roy wrote:
> >> BTW.. a sourdough tortilla is more akin to a sourdough raised pita
> >> bread than the mexican influenced delica
> >
> > I heard that somewhere before.... actually, now that I'm thinking about
> > it, Israeli Boy Scouts are taught to make a flatbread from rolled out
> > flour and water that's a kind of pocketless pita called a 'taboun' (also
> > the name of the oven used, although they use grill covers or even
shovels,
> > I'm told).
> >

In Maggie Glezer's book "A Blessing of Bread" in the recipe for salouf which
is yemenite flatbread she says: ... similar to an uptopped pizza ... Ora
Amzel demonstrated the shaping technique using virtually the same recipe as
the yeasted pita dough (page 240) but she had stretched the breads rather
than rolling them to make larger, thinner bread with no pocket. The bread
was traditionally baked on the wall of a taboon ...

The baking method she uses is to preheat the oven with the stone in at 550
for an hour. When ready to bake the dough, turn the oven to broil, hand
stretch the dough, toss it onto the stone and broil/bake for 2 minutes until
it bubbles up and looks golden brown in spots. Do not over cook or what you
will get is a cracker not a bread ... while the first one is cooking stretch
the next one. There is also an implication that these stale rapidly and
should be made just prior to serving. It also appears that you can cut or
tear them to serving size and freeze and then reheat without defrosting
prior to serving ..

It would appear that "taboon" refers to the oven and not the breads that are
made in it. There is also a reference in the book to regular pitas being
made in a taboon ...



Ellen

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
....
>> Yeah. ... But NOWHERE have I been able to find a recipe for those
>> taboun. Doing a Google search on ' "taboun bread" recipe ' yields only
>> _TWO_ entries; one of which is your link above...the other is using
>> it...<big sigh!>
>
> Think I said that... as well as all variations on the orthography since
Yes. Got the nuance (the first time, even). Understood what you were
saying. But I guess I wuz hopin' that maybe you were just holding out on me
cuz, as you said, it wuz so common...(:-o)!

> it's not a Latin alphabet, and I own a mailing list with close to 2,000
> members and a couple hundred Israelis and none of them have ever come up
> with an exact recipe so I'm not just using google--it's like I said,
> everyone knows, there's no need for a recipe. You just do it.
While I believe you, Brian, I'm just hard pressed to grasp that so many
folks make is so easily and often that a recipe isn't needed. That being
the case, can anybody relay it to me? Any hint? Clue? Anything besides
hand-waving and innuendo?

> The point is... this is what a sourdough "tortilla" would be, I believe.
> Just make a dough, let it sit for a couple hours, roll it out thinly and
> "bake" it on a hot surface. Lavosh may be similar.
Yeah. Been through the Lavosh recipes...they either use sugar and/or
yeast...so they're out. I think the SD tortilla path is still the way to
go. And, if not, it's been fun experimenting with the various recipes...

>
> B/

On Saturday, July 9, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> Think I said that... as well as all variations on the orthography since
> it's not a Latin alphabet, and I own a mailing list with close to 2,000
> members and a couple hundred Israelis and none of them have ever come
> up
> with an exact recipe so I'm not just using google--it's like I said,
> everyone knows, there's no need for a recipe. You just do it.
>
> The point is... this is what a sourdough "tortilla" would be, I
> believe.
> Just make a dough, let it sit for a couple hours, roll it out thinly
> and "bake" it on a hot surface. Lavosh may be similar.
>

Whenever the weather gets hot out here in Wisconsin (it actually does),
I switch over to flatbread. There's nothing special about it. I just
make a wetter dough, 70-72% hydration or so. I still retard it
overnight in the refrigerator, but then roll it quite thin, 1/4" to
3/8" inch, when it warms. Leave the perimeter edges a little thicker so
they don't brown out. I bake on black steel half sheet in 500 F oven
for about 6 or 8 minutes. Use the bottom most position. You need the
maximum radiant energy from the
floor to pop the dough rounds.

The rolling is best done on a silicon mat with a bit of flour to buffer
things. AP flour and scant salt works better since the dough is more
extensible.

An aside... I understand this is a tortilla post, but for what it's
worth, the bread really works well with taboule, hummus, and yogurt
things. We particularly like it for falafels.

Ellen wrote:

> It would appear that "taboon" refers to the oven and not the breads that are
> made in it.

Depends which culture is doing the referring, I imagine.

B/

Dusty Bleher wrote:

Brian Mailman wrote:

>> it's not a Latin alphabet, and I own a mailing list with close to 2,000
>> members and a couple hundred Israelis and none of them have ever come up
>> with an exact recipe so I'm not just using google--it's like I said,
>> everyone knows, there's no need for a recipe. You just do it.

> While I believe you, Brian, I'm just hard pressed to grasp that so many
> folks make is so easily and often that a recipe isn't needed.

I was going to go on about Israeli Salad, but here's one from our own
cultu I haven't seen an *exact* recipe for PB&J sandwiches.

I think Diana Kennedy had to observe *many* tortilla-making sessions in
*many* places from *many* people before she published the recipe in her
book; I believe she observed the commonalities, collated them, then made
an educated guess as to quantities.

>> The point is... this is what a sourdough "tortilla" would be, I believe.
>> Just make a dough, let it sit for a couple hours, roll it out thinly and
>> "bake" it on a hot surface. Lavosh may be similar.

> Yeah. Been through the Lavosh recipes...they either use sugar and/or
> yeast...so they're out.

Then don't use sugar and convert from commercial yeast to sourdough.

B/

Will wrote:

> On Saturday, July 9, 2005, at 10:31 AM, Brian Mailman wrote:


(snip)

I've asked you before either to send by private email OR post
publically, but I don't need the duplicate messages. If you continue,
I'll have to killfile you in my private email and then anything you wish
to send that really is private I won't ever see... Thanks.

B/

Hal Laurent wrote:

>
>>The flour tortilla recipe from Diana Kennedy's "The Cuisines of Mexico"
>>calls for:
>>
>> 1 pound of all-purpose flour
>> 1/4 pound lard or shortening
>> 2 teaspoons salt
>> 1 cup hot water
>>
>>This is for 24 6-inch tortillas.
>>
>>
>
>Another sighting: the 1997 edition of The Joy of Cooking has a recipe for
>flour tortillas with the same ingredients (I didn't check to see if the
>proportions are the same).
>
>

Since it seems that tortillas are an unleavened bread, there would not
have ever been a sourdough tortilla.

Mike

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.2.1121011599.60465.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...

> Since it seems that tortillas are an unleavened bread, there would not
> have ever been a sourdough tortilla.
>
> Mike

Actually Mike,

Not all Tortillas are unleavened. Some recipes call for baking powder which
is considered as a chemical leavening agent. <GRIN>

But for all practical purposes (BFAPP) you are right. We eat a lot of them
during Pesach. Without the baking powder of course.

Gordon

Brian Mailman wrote:

> I've asked you before either to send by private email OR post
> publically, but I don't need the duplicate messages. If you continue,
> I'll have to killfile you in my private email and then anything you wish
> to send that really is private I won't ever see... Thanks.


Just so everyone understands what happened here. Brian's ISP
automatically puts his personal addy in the "reply to" line with the
RFS group. I thought I had mistakenly hit the "reply all" button on my
machine instead of "reply". In which case I could say "Golly Brian I am
sorry, I goofed." Because I do hit the "reply all" sometimes and don't
catch myself.

But that was not the case here.

One solution (better than killfile threats and easier than changing
ISP's) is to use a hotmail, gmail or yahoo mail account for list
correspondence if you have this addy situation with your ISP.

Will

"Gordon Hayes" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message
....
>> Since it seems that tortillas are an unleavened bread, there would not
>> have ever been a sourdough tortilla.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Actually Mike,
>
> Not all Tortillas are unleavened. Some recipes call for baking powder
> which
> is considered as a chemical leavening agent. <GRIN>
>
> But for all practical purposes (BFAPP) you are right. We eat a lot of them
> during Pesach. Without the baking powder of course.
>
> Gordon
Yeah. That's kinda what I was getting at. I've seen them with BP, and had
one pointed out to me that didn't use any kind of leavening. So, that means
I don't really know how the "typical" old-fashioned tortilla (before yeast
or BP) was made.

I wasn't trying to assert that leavening was needed (or not), only that most
recipes I'd found so far incorporated some level of it.


Dusty

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
....
> cultu I haven't seen an *exact* recipe for PB&J sandwiches.
Touché! But it wasn't even an "exact" recipe that I'd like to see. An
approximate one would do...

Okay, lemme see if I'm up to the task. Ingredients:
1-vehicle; a thick slice of fresh SD bread will do fine
2-measures of PB
1-measure of J

Directions:
Spread the PB on the bread, followed by the J. Eat

The bread is simply the vehicle for the PB&J. You will have to vary the
exact amount of PB & J to cover the vehicle to your satisfaction. Although
the amounts of PB & J are not fixed and can vary according to need and
taste, I prefer to use about twice as much PB as J.

Your turn. (:-o)!

....
>> Yeah. Been through the Lavosh recipes...they either use sugar and/or
>> yeast...so they're out.
>
> Then don't use sugar and convert from commercial yeast to sourdough.
Yes. I know. I can and probably will do just that. But it wasn't "Lavosh"
I was trying to make...it was taboun...(:-o)!

But I did "get" your implication that the recipes are similar. As I've
found most of the worlds flatbreads all are quite similar.

I'll be trying the Diana Kennedy tortilla recipe tonight--if I can scale it
down a bit first. And tomorrow I'll be taking another whack at my SD
tortilla conversion. Taste testing them against each other should be
enlightening...


Later all,
Dusty

>
> B/

Will wrote:

> Just so everyone understands what happened here. Brian's ISP
> automatically puts his personal addy in the "reply to" line with the
> RFS group.

No, there's a Reply and a Reply To: for newsgroups. A proper
newsreader, and not a clumsy web interface should be able to distinguish
between the two and send a "reply" to the group.

> One solution (better than killfile threats

It was a not a threat, it was a warning. I've asked you to stop it
twice now, apparently this time I finally got your attention. Would you
have preferred to just have your possibly-in-the-future relevantly
off-group private replies to me just disappear and wonder why I never
responded?

> and easier than changing
> ISP's) is to use a hotmail, gmail or yahoo mail account for list
> correspondence if you have this addy situation with your ISP.

I don't have an 'addy situation' with my ISP. I have an issue with you
sending duplicate messages.

I don't read "a list" here. This is a Usenet Newsgroup and a different
animal than a mailing list (although it would seem someone gated the
group to a mailing list at one point). Rather than _me_ changing _my_
address for _your_ preferences, I think it would be easier to you to
start using a real News client. If cost is an issue, there are many
free ones available (I'm using one such if you look in my headers).

B/

Okay, last night I did my big leavened vs. unleavened tortillas cook-off.
But before I get started, let me at least lay out my considerations.

1) I've learned to eat and love tortillas mostly due to events surrounding
our inclusions into my Hispanic SIL's family. I'd always liked tortillas,
but they taught us how to best "prepare" 'em for eating.

2) I--like they--buy the pre-made store bought ones. But before you eat
them, they heat 'em on a small gas grill instead of a frying pan. There's a
two-tortilla flipping and rotating sequence that I won't get into, that lets
me heat/finish-cooking two tortillas at a time. It's the fastest and most
effective way I know.

3) The tortillas, even if taken right out of the fridge, end up in a few
moments (~1 min. or so) both hot and with a few slightly scorched areas.
This slight scorching adds a HUGE element to the flavor that I've learned to
appreciate and now seek out.

4) The recipes I saw all assumed that you're going to make and eat in one
'em in one step (not a bad idea, mind you, simply the way I saw it).

Starting early in the day, I mixed up a batch of my sourdough based tortilla
mix.
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../tortillas.htm.
Much like my recipe for pizza dough (thanks to a tip some time back in this
NG from someone--Kenneth or Roy perhaps?) I found that by letting the dough
over-proof that it becomes easier to handle when it's being rolled out.

Starting a short while before I began to cook 'em up, I mixed up a batch of
Diana Kennedy's unleavened tortilla recipe. It can be found he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...htm#UnLeavened.

The water, flour, salt, & lard were all the same. For comparison, I had a
package of our usual store-bought tortillas at hand. FWIW; I only have
bread-flour on hand. I suspect that they'd come out a bit less chewy if you
use AP.

I made several of each, carefully keeping them separated. The first batch
was made by cooking complete in a heavy pan. At first the heat was too
high, and they'd puff up like a Puffer fish on steroids. Those were
discarded.

When the heat was just right, they'd cook-up about as you'd expect. A
relatively even surface distribution of a few smallish bubbles. Too low,
and it took so long that they'd begin to crisp up.

The first batch was made and completed in the pan. I rolled them all out
about as thin as I could (~1/8 in. thick or so) and they mostly ended up
about 6-inches in diameter, although not all were "round"...(:-o)!

The unleavened recipe, had a less desirable "mouth-feel". They felt gritty,
and weren't as "smooth" and "tooth-some" as the leavened ones. They
crumbled in the mouth much like one would expect a biscuit to eat. They
quickly chewed apart.

The SD recipe had a smooth, silky 'mouth-feel'. They seemed to have more
substance to the body of the bread. They were far more enjoyable to eat,
and did not evoke a gritty or crumby sense in the mouth.

The store-bought ones were the real eye-openers. They were thinner,
harder/dryer, and saltier than the fresh-made ones (I've since adjusted--but
not tested--the salt amount in my SD recipe). They puffed up and cooked
much like the other two.

By taste, they were nearly indistinguishable from their SD kin. While the
differences were mostly ones of texture, there was a slight difference in
taste. But neither one held clear sway over the other. It was clear that
they were different, but not clear that one was more desirable than the
other (except that the saltier one tasted better).

FWIW; to the mouth, the unleavened ones felt and chewed just like the baking
powder leavened ones I'd made a few days before. I didn't care for them
either, so I discarded both batches (the unleavened and the BP leavened).

One surprise; I had opined the other day that the commercial ones used
baking powder as their leavening agent as indicated on the label. I was
wrong. Upon rereading the ingredient list, the leaving agent is listed as:
baking soda & sodium acid pyrophosphate. My mistake. I don't know exactly
how those ingredients work, but I'm sure they do, and I'm sure that Roy or
one of the other knowledgeable commercial bakers can fill us in on that.
Sometime in the future, I'm going to be fooling with adding a bit of baking
soda to see what it does to the flavor.

Okay, so much for cooking them to completion. For my next step I purposely
undercooked the tortillas. Not letting them get to the dark, slightly
scorched but bubbly stage in the pan. I let them cool a bit (so they could
be handled), and then finished them off on my gas grill like I normally do
the commercial ones. These tortillas were magnificent! Lacking only the
salt of the commercial ones, they were otherwise nearly indistinguishable by
taste or texture (mouth-feel).

Finally: The commercially prepared tortillas seem to have been lightly
"cooked" between plates of some sort. I saw this because what should have
been surface bubbles seemed to have been pressed down. So for the next
batch I prepared a double set of pans, heated together, with the top pan
being used to press the tortilla against the bottom pan.

The resulting bread came out hard and stiff, almost cracker like, as if it
was over-cooked (probably because they were). I saved a few to let them
"season" in the fridge overnight. At least as of this writing, they're
still cracker hard.

Conclusion; my sourdough tortilla recipe seems to make excellent tortillas.
They taste good, chew well, and generally are difficult to distinguish from
their commercial brethren by taste and mouth-feel. Ending up somewhat
thicker than the commercial ones, I found them to be very satisfying and an
exceptional result.

Hope this helps any aspiring tortilla cookers out there...


Dusty
San Jose

Dusty Bleher wrote:

> I made several of each, carefully keeping them separated. The first batch
> was made by cooking complete in a heavy pan. At first the heat was too
> high, and they'd puff up like a Puffer fish on steroids.

Sounds like a baked sopaipilla... or then again, if the puffing was a
pocket... no, best not to go there....

B/

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Dusty Bleher wrote:

> Starting early in the day, I mixed up a batch of my sourdough based tortilla
> mix.
> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../tortillas.htm.
> Much like my recipe for pizza dough (thanks to a tip some time back in this
> NG from someone--Kenneth or Roy perhaps?) I found that by letting the dough
> over-proof that it becomes easier to handle when it's being rolled out.
>
> Starting a short while before I began to cook 'em up, I mixed up a batch of
> Diana Kennedy's unleavened tortilla recipe. It can be found he
> http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...htm#UnLeavened.

> The water, flour, salt, & lard were all the same. For comparison, I had
> a package of our usual store-bought tortillas at hand. FWIW; I only
> have bread-flour on hand. I suspect that they'd come out a bit less
> chewy if you use AP.

> The unleavened recipe, had a less desirable "mouth-feel". They felt gritty,
> and weren't as "smooth" and "tooth-some" as the leavened ones. They
> crumbled in the mouth much like one would expect a biscuit to eat. They
> quickly chewed apart.

> Dusty
> San Jose

Coincidentally, I was making some unleavened flour tortillas last night.

I dug out a recipe I had used before, basically very similar to Kennedy's.
2 cups AP flour (all I have - it's Spelt)
1 tsp salt
3 tbl lard (I had none, used shortening)
1/2 cup warm water.
Cut the lard into the mized flour and salt, until fine crumb texture.
Add water, a tablespoon at a time, while mixing with a fork, until the
ball just pulls away from the bowl

Cover tightly or wrap and let rest for 20-30 minutes.
This is fairly important, to let the flour hydrolyze and absorb the water,
and NOT leting it rest may contribute to the "grainy" texture you
noticede. I don't know that you didn't give it the rest, but you didn't
mention it.

As it happens, I was in a big hurry and skipped the rest, myself. The
result was not as "smooth" or chewy as a good commercial tortilla, but
quite good. Flavor, grilled on a nedium-hot cast iron comal was very good.


As an aside, there has been much talk in these newsgroups about using a
digital scale (vs. "by feel" cooking.) When it comes to scaling - dividing
- dough, a scale *really* helps. I decided to make the 2 cup batch above,
and divide it to make 8 approximately 6" tortillas. Using the tare
function of the scale made it easy to get them even (if not round!):

Zero the scale and weigh the final dough ball = 368 g

Tare again, so it shows 0 g

Rip off a ball, adding or returning bits to display -46 g (368/8 = 46)
Tare-tare to display 0 g again. Repeat, approximating 46 g each time.

Dave

Hi Dave & all;

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
rea.net...
....
> Coincidentally, I was making some unleavened flour tortillas last night.
>
> I dug out a recipe I had used before, basically very similar to Kennedy's.
> 2 cups AP flour (all I have - it's Spelt)
> 1 tsp salt
> 3 tbl lard (I had none, used shortening)
> 1/2 cup warm water.
> Cut the lard into the mized flour and salt, until fine crumb texture.
> Add water, a tablespoon at a time, while mixing with a fork, until the
> ball just pulls away from the bowl
>
> Cover tightly or wrap and let rest for 20-30 minutes.
> This is fairly important, to let the flour hydrolyze and absorb the water,
> and NOT leting it rest may contribute to the "grainy" texture you
> noticede. I don't know that you didn't give it the rest, but you didn't
> mention it.
Hmmm. Good point. Yes, it's in the recipe and I did let them rest, but
perhaps they could have benefitted from more. I'll give that a an extra
shot next time. Thanks for the tip.

> As it happens, I was in a big hurry and skipped the rest, myself. The
> result was not as "smooth" or chewy as a good commercial tortilla, but
> quite good. Flavor, grilled on a nedium-hot cast iron comal was very good.
How did your texture compare with the commercial kind? I'll bet yours were
softer and more malliable than store bought, right? Also, did you finish
them in the pan, or did you gas-flame finish them? It makes a huge
difference...

> As an aside, there has been much talk in these newsgroups about using a
> digital scale (vs. "by feel" cooking.) When it comes to scaling - dividing
> - dough, a scale *really* helps. I decided to make the 2 cup batch above,
Well, I passed on that. Afterall, I wuz only bakin' tortillias, not
formulating a new chemical compound...(:-o)!

I did, however, use my scale to reduce Ms. Kennedy's recipe to volumetric
measurements (to make it easier for others to try to replicate)...


Later all,
Dusty

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Dusty Bleher wrote:

> > As it happens, I was in a big hurry and skipped the rest, myself. The
> > result was not as "smooth" or chewy as a good commercial tortilla, but
> > quite good. Flavor, grilled on a nedium-hot cast iron comal was very good.
> How did your texture compare with the commercial kind? I'll bet yours were
> softer and more malliable than store bought, right? Also, did you finish
> them in the pan, or did you gas-flame finish them? It makes a huge
> difference...

Thses I let finish on the griddle, but it leaves nice scorch marks and a
good texture. They compare pretty well with commercial, except for being a
bit more "fragile", which I attribute to not letting the dough rest.


> > As an aside, there has been much talk in these newsgroups about using
> > a digital scale (vs. "by feel" cooking.) When it comes to scaling -
> > dividing - dough, a scale *really* helps. I decided to make the 2 cup
> > batch above,
> Well, I passed on that. Afterall, I wuz only bakin' tortillias, not
> formulating a new chemical compound...(:-o)!

I tend to have trouble eyeballing the dough into nearly equal parts; this
helps...

Dave, 'way off in Campbell

Well now when my grandmother made flour tortillas, the only kind she
ever made, she cooked them on a flat cast iron stove lid over gas
flame. My grandfather had made her and eventually me, a wooden presser
for them As they were cooked she would press them down onto the
griddle with it so that they made good contact. She also used a very
short 8" rolling pin to make them with.

There is an area in Mexico where they make very large very thin flour
tortillas that are crisp. Very good. Sorry to say I don't remember
what area the friends of the family came from as I was a very small
child when we ate at their home. The lady and her family had a
resturant, and we ate in their family dinning area there. She made
the tortillas, and after cooking them, put them in a rack on the side
of the stove to keep warm. Wish I knew more but at 4 or so I didnt'
care about how they were made, only on how many I could eat.

Charlean

Dusty Bleher wrote at
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br.../tortillas.htm

> baking powder wasn't invented until the nineteenth century and around the same time commercial baking yeasts were developed; so it stood to reason that if some [earlier] form of leavening was used it was going to be sourdough.

Isn't baker's yeast just brewer's yeast? In brewing, yeast can be
recycled, just like sourdough, and brewing is a lot older than C19.
Didn't somebody post earlier that bakers used to go and get a jug of
lees from the brewery to raise their bread?

I'd be interested to know of any definitive sources of information about
this topic, because the myth that sourdough is "the" ancient method of
leavening seems to be widespread.

A quick Google turned up this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2791820

But it also turned up many accounts supporting the myth.

--
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