Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #41 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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>because the myth that sourdough is "the" ancient method of
>leavening seems to be widespread.


I think that is self explanatory as pointed out in the link .you
posted...Sourdough should be ahead of beer as early people were
concerned about what to eat for their daily survival than what to drink
for their entertainment and socials<grin>.
.....
>But it also turned up many accounts supporting the myth. ...

..
That is a good idea to suggest to the Mythbusters to prove....<Lol>

Maybe.....pocket bread or pita bread is leavened by steam which enables
it to expand like a ball in the oven.....which upon removal (from
heat)deflates but leaving a hollow internal structure.
A flour tortilla is not the same as the pita.....
I am not aware of the exact history of flour tortilla ...I presume its
an American creation... as Mexicans created the corn based item.


--

  #42 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dusty Bleher
 
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"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >because the myth that sourdough is "the" ancient method of
>>leavening seems to be widespread.

"Myth?" Perhaps. But from having studied the recipes for many other
flatbreads from around the world and throughout history, I find that they
have much in common as well. And one of the more pervasive commonalities is
the use of what seems to be sourdough as leavening.

....
> A flour tortilla is not the same as the pita.....
> I am not aware of the exact history of flour tortilla ...I presume its
> an American creation... as Mexicans created the corn based item.

Yep. Given the dearth of historically oriented information available about
the tortilla, I'd have to agree with you, Roy.

However, since this is a SD newsgroup and for dietary considerations of my
own, and cuz I really, really like a good tortilla, I've decided to pursue
the SD tortilla.

Last night I made another batch. See:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...illas.htm#more
for details.

They came out WONDERFUL! While I'm still gonna hafta work on my flattening
technique, they came out tender; just the right amount of "chewy", and
distinguishable only in texture from the commercial ones--the flavor of
which we'd grown to like (we were doing side-by-side comparisons). The
texture of the commercial ones was harder, as they were flatter and dryer
than those we made.

The overall result, according to my very opinionated Hispanic critics, was
_far_ superior to store-bought. Woo-hoo! High praise from steely-eyed
critics indeed.

At any rate, you're all welcome to take a lash at 'em. Let us know how you
made out... I'm especially interested if I've made any errors in my recipe.
My goal is to make the process easy, simple, and easily replicated by
others. If I've failed in that anywhere, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me
know...


Regards all,
Dusty


  #43 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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On Saturday, July 16, 2005, at 11:34 AM, Dusty Bleher wrote:

> The overall result, according to my very opinionated Hispanic critics,
> was
> _far_ superior to store-bought. Woo-hoo! High praise from steely-eyed
> critics indeed.


Dusty,

Now that you've conquered the tortillas and hence the relatives, an
opportunity remains: the beans <g>... I had another look at your site
(lotsa good stuff there by the way... even more than the last time I
visited)

Back to the beans.

They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give
them time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.
Makes them sweeter. I don't know why, I think the beans are fooled into
thinking they are supposed to germinate so the latent enzymes wake up.
Anyway... they improve quite a bit. You can taste the difference
between an ordinary soaked bean and an "aged" soaked bean.

Will


  #44 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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BTW, I read your recipe for flour tortilla, which IMO contains much
baking powder; similar to what is applied for cake making.
I don't see the point when the industrial wheat tortilla is made with
onlyof one and half to two teaspoon for your flour measure. The
industry is using the commercial grade baking powder or they added the
components themselves composed of acid sodium pyrophosphate ( SAPP
28) and sodium bicarbonate( fine granular form it will be robust to
such processing methods.

Are you using the homemade type?..If so they are very fast acting that
the moment you let the dough rest most of the aerating power is already
lost. The time you add the water to the dough mixture it will react
instantly and preferably should be baked as soon as possible..
I don't know where that particular wheat tortilla recipe comes from
or the author who created it was using the expired baking powder<g>
That is the possible reason of the fault you mentioned in your earlier
post, that your baking powder wheat tortillas taste odd and had
yellowish color.
It was likely an alkaline dough
Roy

  #45 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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>The overall result, according to my very opinionated Hispanic critics, was
>_far_ superior to store-bought. Woo-hoo! High praise from steely-eyed
>critics indeed.


I think you've done a nice job Dusty by reengineering the flour
tortilla;<grin>
It reminds me of a single layered arabic bread which has similar
recipe and procedure..
A typical example is the Iranian Sangak and the Egyptian Shamsy which
are sourdough flat breads but is not allowed to form a pocket.
Definitely its texture would be different from the typical flour
tortillas Yankees know about.

>At any rate, you're all welcome to take a lash at 'em. Let us know how you
>made out... I'm especially interested if I've made any errors in my recipe.
>My goal is to make the process easy, simple, and easily replicated by
>others. If I've failed in that anywhere, I'd appreciate it if you'd let me
>know...

Regarding that point you had done satisfactorily ; in addition you
simplified the procedures to the point that other interested readers
will be encouraged to try;
One point that you emphasizes is the proper control of baking
temperature/heat.
In the related Arabic bread I mentioned that formation of pockets and
large bubbles are prevented by docking( rolling pin with spikes)
rolled through the dough before baking. To promote an even thickness
and elimination of holes.
Roy



  #46 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dusty Bleher
 
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"Will" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
....
> Dusty,
>
> Now that you've conquered the tortillas and hence the relatives, an
> opportunity remains: the beans <g>... I had another look at your site
> (lotsa good stuff there by the way... even more than the last time I
> visited)
>
> Back to the beans.
>
> They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
> time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders. Makes
> them sweeter. I don't know why, I think the beans are fooled into thinking
> they are supposed to germinate so the latent enzymes wake up. Anyway...
> they improve quite a bit. You can taste the difference between an ordinary
> soaked bean and an "aged" soaked bean.

What a wonderful and interesting idea! I'd not heard that from anyone
before.

I do know that sprouting things does indeed release some of the enzymes. So
this certainly makes some sense. Methinks I'm gonna try a small batch
starting tonight.

Just let them soak in cold tap-water for a couple of days...right? And then
cook 'em in the usual manner?

Thanks, Will. I'm gonna give that a shot...

Dusty


>
> Will
>
>



  #47 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dusty Bleher
 
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Hi Roy & all;

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> BTW, I read your recipe for flour tortilla, which IMO contains much
> baking powder; similar to what is applied for cake making.

Okay. I think I understand. FWIW; I didn't invent that proportion, I
simply averaged what I found in some dozen or so similar recipes. It seemed
fairly consistent across the sample that I took. But, in the interest of
finding out exactly how this works, I'll give that a shot in a future
build...tnx for the tip!

> I don't see the point when the industrial wheat tortilla is made with
> onlyof one and half to two teaspoon for your flour measure. The
> industry is using the commercial grade baking powder or they added the
> components themselves composed of acid sodium pyrophosphate ( SAPP
> 28) and sodium bicarbonate( fine granular form it will be robust to
> such processing methods.
>
> Are you using the homemade type?..If so they are very fast acting that

Nope. Regular OTS stuff; fresh from a container of: "Calumet"

> the moment you let the dough rest most of the aerating power is already
> lost. The time you add the water to the dough mixture it will react
> instantly and preferably should be baked as soon as possible..

Okay. Got that. But then how do I let it "rest", as someone had described
previously in this thread, to permit the flour to absorb the water? Don't
do it?

> I don't know where that particular wheat tortilla recipe comes from

I don't know either, cuz my recipe is for a plain (white) flour tortilla.
I've tried the WW and didn't like it as much.

> or the author who created it was using the expired baking powder<g>

Just checked: 22 Mar '06 ... s/b okay donchathink?

> That is the possible reason of the fault you mentioned in your earlier
> post, that your baking powder wheat tortillas taste odd and had
> yellowish color.
> It was likely an alkaline dough

Like I said, some good tips, so I'm likely to give 'em a try RSN. But then
again, my SD one's came out so great, why bother...(:-o)!

Thanks again!


Later all,
Dusty

> Roy
>



  #48 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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On Saturday, July 16, 2005, at 05:13 PM, Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
> Just let them soak in cold tap-water for a couple of days...right?
> And then
> cook 'em in the usual manner?
>


Yep. I usually cook mine in a small crock pot since I like them cooked
slow and low. I also have this tendency to macerate them at the end so
I can have them as a puree.

The wife's favorite summer dinner is pintos, corn with toasted ground
cumin, good flour tortillas, and a cold beer (or two).

Will
  #49 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
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Dusty Bleher wrote:
> Hi Roy & all;


>>Are you using the homemade type?..If so they are very fast acting that

>
> Nope. Regular OTS stuff; fresh from a container of: "Calumet"
>
>>the moment you let the dough rest most of the aerating power is already
>>lost. The time you add the water to the dough mixture it will react
>>instantly and preferably should be baked as soon as possible..

>
> Okay. Got that. But then how do I let it "rest", as someone had described
> previously in this thread, to permit the flour to absorb the water? Don't
> do it?


The homemade baking powder Roy refers to is cream or tartar (tartaric
acid) and baking soda (sodium bicarbonate.) The OTS Double Acting powder
contains both the above and sodium acid pyrophosphate, with additional
soda. The SAPP doesn't release any acid until it is heated, resulting in
additional rise in the baking stage. SAPP and soda can be let rest
without losing its leavening power...

Dave
  #50 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
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Roy wrote:
> The
> industry is using the commercial grade baking powder or they added the
> components themselves composed of acid sodium pyrophosphate ( SAPP
> 28) and sodium bicarbonate( fine granular form it will be robust to
> such processing methods.


> Roy


Any suggestions on where to purchase SAPP and/or monocalcium sulfate in
home-use quantities? I can only find a single source of commercial
corn-free double acting baking powder (Ener-G Foods), and it's both
expensive and fairly long lead ordering. Seems like I could blend my
own, even without the obligatory starch extender (although I'd need to
adjust my usage downwards a bit, inthat case.)

Dave


  #51 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dusty Bleher
 
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"Will" > wrote in message
news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
....
> Back to the beans.
>
> They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
> time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.

Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three? What's
the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

This is gonna be interesting...(:-o)!


Dusty


  #52 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
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Dusty Bleher wrote:
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> ...
>
>>Back to the beans.
>>
>>They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
>>time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.

>
> Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three? What's
> the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?


I believe they will cook faster, after soaking. Hell, that's the only
reason I knew for soaking them! I'll definately have to try a longer
soak, next batch. I made quite a series of attempts, trying to come
close to the sweet, smoky, black beans at El Pollo Loco. Now I'll be
back to the "lab"!

Dave
  #53 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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>Any suggestions on where to purchase SAPP and/or monocalcium sulfate in
>home-use quantities? I can only find a single source of commercial
>corn-free double acting baking powder (Ener-G Foods), and it's both
>expensive and fairly long lead ordering. Seems like I could blend my
>own, even without the obligatory starch extender (although I'd need to
>adjust my usage downwards a bit, inthat case.)


Hello Dave,
Hmmn I am not sure...if you can get this food grade chemical OTC. But
give it a try<g>.
But I hope you won't mind for a correction; acid sodium pyrophosphate
had a double reaction, first it reacts during the dough stage or
preparation and further on the oven side( baking process).
The number after the SAPP signifies roughly the reaction rate;
You should be aware of such numbers as some suppliers/retailers got
mixed up with it.
The commonly used baking powder grade is an average speed material; not
too slow and not too fast, that is SAPP 28, if the number goes higher
say 36 that is moderately fast and good only for cake donuts.Meanwhile
the slower SAPP22 and below are for frozen dough application.
. I know a well known supplier,in which I bought tons of my
chemical leavening acids for my production of bakery prepared mixes
several years back.
It is Budenheim of Germany They have all the kinds of phosphates being
used in chemical leavening industry as well as food stabilizers.
Ewrc.
http://www.cfb-budenheim.de/dbw/public_cfb/Homepage/$frameset/Start
Previously ....
I bought from that supplier ton quantities of monocalcium phosphate
monohydrate, three different classes of acidic SAPP; namely SAPP
22,SAPP 28 and SAPP 36-40, dicalcum phosphate, sodium aluminum
phosphate., disodium phosphate and tetrasodium pyrophosphate In my
experience with Budenheim they suppled the lowest priced material with
the same specification as the higher prices products from Stauffer
Chemicals, Monsanto,Albright Wilson.
These are my supplier for sodium bicarbonate
http://www.brunnermond.com/whatfor/AppsFood.pdf
http://www.ahperformance.com/index.asp
The cheapest SAPP baking powder grade is from Korea and China.
If you want to buy a bottle of it say a kilogram quantity you should
try contacting those suppliers if they want to retail. Because IIRC,
the smallest quantity that I bought from them for pilot scale product
development trials was a 25 kg bag.
By the way these technical papers ( previously )r on tortilla
leavening agents which might be of interest to the people here which
was in my file and these is the link for the scientifically minded
TORTILLEROS<grin>
http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemist...s/1215-02R.pdf
http://www.innophos.com/PDF/AACC%20Tortilla%20Paper.pdf

Roy

  #54 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ephraim F. Moya
 
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On Sat, 16 Jul 2005 12:54:05 -0500, Will >
wrote:

>Back to the beans.
>
>They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give
>them time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.
>Makes them sweeter. I don't know why, I think the beans are fooled into
>thinking they are supposed to germinate so the latent enzymes wake up.
>Anyway... they improve quite a bit. You can taste the difference
>between an ordinary soaked bean and an "aged" soaked bean.
>
>Will
>


I've never heard of anyone doing that here in New Mexico (or
anywhere). Many of my relatives, and me, think that beans are better
on the second day. Take a look at my page on the subject:
http://moya.us/MoyaFamily/recipes/RCPbeans.php

Regards,

  #55 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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On Sunday, July 17, 2005, at 01:32 AM, Ephraim F.Moya wrote:

> I've never heard of anyone doing that here in New Mexico (or
> anywhere). Many of my relatives, and me, think that beans are better
> on the second day.


Ephraim,

I cannot say I have heard about long bean soaks in New Mexico <g> or
any other place. I just follow my taste. I mentioned it to Dusty for
two reasons. He was determined to get a Quality tortilla and was
willing to try different approaches. He had an audience that considered
itself knowledgeable on flavor matters. That second one is key.

If my suggestion works, they will let him know.


  #56 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dave Bell
 
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Roy wrote:
> Hello Dave,
> Hmmn I am not sure...if you can get this food grade chemical OTC. But
> give it a try<g>.
> But I hope you won't mind for a correction; acid sodium pyrophosphate
> had a double reaction, first it reacts during the dough stage or
> preparation and further on the oven side( baking process).
> The number after the SAPP signifies roughly the reaction rate;
> You should be aware of such numbers as some suppliers/retailers got
> mixed up with it.
> The commonly used baking powder grade is an average speed material; not
> too slow and not too fast, that is SAPP 28, if the number goes higher
> say 36 that is moderately fast and good only for cake donuts.Meanwhile
> the slower SAPP22 and below are for frozen dough application.


Thank you very much for those details! I had never run into different
"grades" of SAPP, while searching for it.
When you first mentioned SAPP 28, I thought the number may have
represented by-weight percent of the final product!

Small quantities (1 kg or less) seem to be the problem. I ran acros a
Chinese supplier that had a picture of a nice, small bag, probably on
the order of 1 kilo. The accompanying text suggested they could supply
up to 1000 metric tonnes... Gigagrams I don't need!

> . I know a well known supplier,in which I bought tons of my
> chemical leavening acids for my production of bakery prepared mixes
> several years back.
> It is Budenheim of Germany They have all the kinds of phosphates being
> used in chemical leavening industry as well as food stabilizers.
> Ewrc.
> http://www.cfb-budenheim.de/dbw/public_cfb/Homepage/$frameset/Start
> Previously ....
> I bought from that supplier ton quantities of monocalcium phosphate
> monohydrate, three different classes of acidic SAPP; namely SAPP
> 22,SAPP 28 and SAPP 36-40, dicalcum phosphate, sodium aluminum
> phosphate., disodium phosphate and tetrasodium pyrophosphate In my
> experience with Budenheim they suppled the lowest priced material with
> the same specification as the higher prices products from Stauffer
> Chemicals, Monsanto,Albright Wilson.
> These are my supplier for sodium bicarbonate
> http://www.brunnermond.com/whatfor/AppsFood.pdf
> http://www.ahperformance.com/index.asp
> The cheapest SAPP baking powder grade is from Korea and China.
> If you want to buy a bottle of it say a kilogram quantity you should
> try contacting those suppliers if they want to retail. Because IIRC,
> the smallest quantity that I bought from them for pilot scale product
> development trials was a 25 kg bag.
> By the way these technical papers ( previously )r on tortilla
> leavening agents which might be of interest to the people here which
> was in my file and these is the link for the scientifically minded
> TORTILLEROS<grin>
> http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemist...s/1215-02R.pdf
> http://www.innophos.com/PDF/AACC%20Tortilla%20Paper.pdf
>
> Roy
>

  #57 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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>When you first mentioned SAPP 28, I thought the number may have
>represented by-weight percent of the final product!


I understand.....but the number 22,28,30,36 etc is just a code which
is the identifying number for the particular SAPP grade.
A baking powder formulation made from such materials uses the same
amount of SAPP regardless of the code number.
For the simplest baking powder; it is composed of 42 parts SAPP and 30
parts baking soda and the remainder is a filler, double dried flour or
starch). BTW these ratios are by weight. basis.

  #58 (permalink)   Report Post  
Gordon Hayes
 
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"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
m...
> Dusty Bleher wrote:
> > "Will" > wrote in message
> > news:mailman.0.1121536452.12629.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> > ...
> >
> >>Back to the beans.
> >>
> >>They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give them
> >>time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.

> >
> > Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three?

What's
> > the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

>
> I believe they will cook faster, after soaking. Hell, that's the only
> reason I knew for soaking them! I'll definately have to try a longer
> soak, next batch. I made quite a series of attempts, trying to come
> close to the sweet, smoky, black beans at El Pollo Loco. Now I'll be
> back to the "lab"!
>
> Dave


Faster cooking was probably one of the main reasons our ancestors soaked
their beans before cooking. It soes allow them to cook in a shorter time.
Therefore, less firewood.

But another benefit of soaking the beans is that the phytic acid is
disipated (sp?). This means that the nutrients in the beans are more readily
available to the one eating them.This is one of the reasons that Dr. Jordan
Rubin recommends breads made with sourdough or sprouted grains.

Gordon


  #59 (permalink)   Report Post  
Greg
 
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Roy wrote:

>>because the myth that sourdough is "the" ancient method of
>>leavening seems to be widespread.

>
> I think that is self explanatory as pointed out in the link .you
> posted...Sourdough should be ahead of beer as early people were
> concerned about what to eat for their daily survival than what to drink
> for their entertainment and socials<grin>.


Sourdough may be ahead of beer, but I don't regard 2000 BC (footnote 3
of the h2g2 article, http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2791820) as modern!
Yet a third option, Joe Ortiz implies in his book The Village Baker that
porridge-based methods are the oldest. These are direct rather than
cyclic; no doubt the organisms involved will probably be similar to
sourdough, but so is brewer's yeast.

By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world.

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.
  #60 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Avery
 
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Greg wrote:

>By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
>today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world.
>
>


My guess is they were drunk because there was no choice. Fruit juice,
even fruit on the vine, will ferment. And it's eat the fruit or go hungry.

Once people started eating and drinking the fermenting things, they
decided it was pretty neat.

Historians are divided as to whether it was desire for food or drink
that caused the nomads to settle down and develop agriculture.

Of course, soon after people started enjoying fermented products, other
people came around saying things like, "It's not good for you to eat
those fermented peaches! And it's not good for you to put the grapes in
a bucket, squeeze out the juice, and let it sit until it stops bubbling
before you drink it!"

So, the natural defense was, "When I drink the fermented juice, I don't
get sick as often as when I drink water!" And there as an element of,
"When I drink this stuff, you aren't as annoying."

Mike



  #61 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dusty Bleher
 
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"Gordon Hayes" > wrote in message
. ..
....
>> >>Back to the beans.
>> >>
>> >>They are like dough. The flavor will develop and mature if you give
>> >>them
>> >>time. A two or three day cool soak before cooking works wonders.
>> >
>> > Okay. I'm soaking 'em, Will. So, which is it? Two days or three?

> What's
>> > the diff? Also, do they cook any different (read: faster)?

2-days, 3-days? Well, the hot temperatures we've been experiencing this
last week or so kinda set the schedule for me. After just a bit more than
24-hours sitting in my kitchen, I noticed that the beans had started to
begin to bubble and ferment. I didn't want to take a chance of letting
something this low-acid "work", so I rinsed the soak water and cooked 'em
with my regular recipe.

Looks like I'm gonna hafta wait for some cooler weather to try this again.
In the mean time, I've got lots of beans...(:-o)!

....
> Faster cooking was probably one of the main reasons our ancestors soaked
> their beans before cooking. It soes allow them to cook in a shorter time.
> Therefore, less firewood.

Well, at least in this somewhat abbreviated soak test, the cooking time did
seem to be shortened by about 20-min. Not bad for 1-day of soaking.

> But another benefit of soaking the beans is that the phytic acid is
> disipated (sp?). This means that the nutrients in the beans are more
> readily

Can't speak to that. All I know is that the bubbling was startin' ta give
me that feelin' that I should be doin' something...(:-o)!

Dusty
San Jose


  #62 (permalink)   Report Post  
Roy
 
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>The Village Baker that
>porridge-based methods are the oldest. These are direct rather than
>cyclic; no doubt the organisms involved will probably be similar to
>sourdough, but so is brewer's yeast.

By modern standards
I don't think that brewers yeast is similar to the wild yeasts in
sourdough
Yes they are classified under the prefix saccharomyces...but its more
than that....
...if you look at a text in yeast technology..they have their unique
differences....
Brewers yeast if its top fermenting ( for ale production) is called
saccharmyces cereviseae( related to modern baker's yeast); while the
bottom fermenting( lager manufacture) is the saccharomyces uvarum.(
that is not suited to baking use as its very slow).
Meanwhile the popular yeast present in sourdough is saccharomyces
exiguus ....
Another difference,,, they exhibit their own fermentative
peculiarity....
The brewers yeast are omnivorous with respect to the carbohydrates they
utilize ( it can ferment a wide range of sugars ranging from hexoses to
pentoses, monosaccharides to disaccharides. On the other hand the S.
exiiguus cannot even digest maltose which is widely used by the
aforementioned beverage yeast.
Another point of difference...brewers yeast require a selective culture
while true sourdough yeasts throughout the world can encompass in
addition to S exiguus, a number of other yeasts aside from S.
cereviseae such as candida,, hansenula debaryomyces ,,pichia and
toruluspura species
These other yeast are considered spoilage yeasts or microbial
contaminants in brewing process
On the other hand
The beer of ancient times may be not as good ( contains plenty of
microbial contaminants) as they still don't have the microbiological
knowledge and skill that modern brewery man had.
I think that is sensible to relate sourdough yeast to ancient
brewers yeast I suppose that they first alcoholic beverage might be the
hooch that results from sourdough preparation.( the forerunner of
beer).
And not from intentional preparation of such alcoholic beverage; rather
an outgrowth from such baking method.
Therefore I can conclude with certainty that bread comes ahead of
alcoholic beverages.

>By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
>today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world


Prehistoric people don't have the understanding of health
consciousness .
IMO whenever they are thirsty they drank anything they believe can
slake their thirst. (Immediately). That is one of the major reasons (I
suppose) that they have short life span.due to quaffing pathogen
contaminated beverages( .i.e any available water in ponds, lakes,
streams and possibly including some home brews<grin>.
Roy

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Greg
 
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Roy wrote:

> Therefore I can conclude with certainty that bread comes ahead of
> alcoholic beverages.


Though I don't follow your logic to the point of "certainty" anyway,
this was not the point in question. It was whether non-sourdough
leavening comes ahead of commercial baker's yeast. 2000 BC versus 19th
century would suggest that it does.

Greg

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Roy
 
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>It was whether non-sourdough
>leavening comes ahead of commercial baker's yeast. 2000 BC versus 19th
>century would suggest that it does.


Indeed.... sourdough leavening comes ahead of bakers yeast ( which is a
modern invention) the outgrowth of the brewing industry.

BTW..
I am not sure what you mean by non sourdough leavenig.... it is by
physical or chemical means ?
If its still related to fermenation then its still microbial in origin
and we can relate that to sourdough.
Roy

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SD tortillas are great. But maybe I'm missunderstanding tortilla, I add
sourdough just for extra flavour when I have some spare.

180g of water
300g flour + more for mixing and rolling
7g salt
14g oil ( optional)

(optional 100g starter if usning starte add a tad less water. 165g or
so.)

I'm sure you know the rest.

Jim

Dusty Bleher wrote:
> G'day all;
>
> I'm pretty sure that tortillas weren't invented less than a hundred years
> ago, and I'm pretty sure that they didn't start out being made with baking
> powder.
>
> So-o-o I'm presuming that they were originally made with sourdough somewhere
> in the preceding years. I've hunted all around, and can't find anything to
> support that assertion. Anybody ever done a SD tortilla? If so, care to
> share the recipe? Otherwise I'm gonna hafta start from scratch and invent
> one...(:-o)!
>
>
> TIA,
> Dusty




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Me too.

Dead easy.

Jim

  #67 (permalink)   Report Post  
 
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I've seen loads of recipes for sourdough starters using bakers yeast.
That doesn't mean they're right. But what do I know.

Jim

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OK, I'll add a bit more, set the dough aside after mixing for about
half an hour. shape into golf ball sized pieces. Heat a pan medium hot.
You'll have to gues I set my dial to six o'clock. lol. Roll firts out
about 5 mil thick, so you can just see through them, then put on the
heat. Roll the next keeping an eye on the pan, If you don't have the
pan hot enough it'll not puff up. You'll have to guess. lol. turn when
browned a bit. If the pan's hot enough they'll puff up like a puffer
fish in about 30 to 40 seconds. Don't roll out too many at once as
they'll stick together or to the work top. It's good to be on the hop
anyway. lol. Cook on each side till done. You might need to wipe the
pan with some paper to get the burnt flour out half way throug.

Good luck.

Jim

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Charles
 
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Yes, beer was safer than water in many places, especially on ship
voyages. If you check the trivia facts written by the Pilgrims on the
Mayflower, you will find that one of the main considerations for landing
at Plymoth Rock was that they had run out of beer and had to use WATER.
In other places, watered down wine was prefered to unknown water. Even
today in many major cities (yes even Mexico even if politically
incorrect to say so) it is safer to NOT drink from the public water
supply.

Charles


Greg > wrote in news:ncTCe.1489$Qi4.233381
@news20.bellglobal.com:

....
>
> By the way, weren't alcoholic beverages drunk for health reasons? Even
> today, drinking water is dangerous in much of the world.
>
> Greg
>


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Greg
 
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Roy wrote:

> I am not sure what you mean by non sourdough leavenig.... it is by
> physical or chemical means ?
> If its still related to fermenation then its still microbial in origin
> and we can relate that to sourdough.


The two examples already mentioned are porridge (scalded flour) and lees
of beer/wine. Of course they are RELATED to sourdough, but isn't using
lees of beer even more closely related to today's commercial yeast?

Greg

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