Hello Greg and all;

"Greg" > wrote in message
...
....
>> * The various lipids and cholesterols in your blood are only influenced
>> by your diet in a minor manner. The vast majority of them are
>> manufactured by your own liver...from it's favorite feedstock, glucose
>> (i.e. sugars as described above)
>
> This is interesting. Your argument seems to be, that because carbohydrates
> supply only energy, and because in excess they are more easily stored, it
> makes sense to obtain as much energy as possible instead from foods (such
> as fats) that are beneficial more generally, albeit without exceeding the
> required number of calories.
Mmmm...sorta, kinda. Carbs can't be used as building blocks, only as
energy--and that's not to say that they have no importance or value--only
that they have real limitations. Fats, on the other hand, can be converted
to ketones which can be used for energy (in place of carbs) as well. So
yes, eating fats would accomplish more. But yuk! The boredom and the
taste! While I like some fat on my chicken or steak, I still don't like
chewing on a mouthful of it. Icky!

> Where this would fall down is if typical sources of fat also contain
> substances that may be harmful. (You described margarine as "poison",
Okay. Using the word "poison" probably wasn't all that accurate or apropos.
I should have stopped at hydrogenated fats being bad for you.

Could you elucidate a bit on what would be "substances that may be harmful?"

> and there are certainly claims elsewhere that components of natural fats
"Claims" are a dime a dozen, and even cheaper on Usenet. I know of no
peer-reviewed studies that support your statement. But hey! I don't know
everything and I've not yet "read it all!" So I'm willing to read and take
into consideration anything one might find...

> are unhealthy.) In that case, one would want to have as much fat as
> necessary for other reasons, but no more [from such sources], so as to
> minimise the intake of toxins. It would then make sense to remedy any
> remaining energy defecit with "purer" carbohydrates.
An interesting conclusion...

> Likewise, it would also fall down if typical sources of carbohydrate are
> also significant sources of other important foodstuffs like proteins,
> vitamins, minerals, etc., potentially even ones that are only needed in
> trace amounts.
Oh absolutely. There are good reasons to consume some carbs. Albeit mostly
for the issues you mentioned: vitamins, minerals, and other trace nutrients.
Not to mention, eating only meats & fats would be boring (well, at least to
me).

As Marina correctly pointed out, everything in moderation--but that goes for
carbs as well. The carb-heavy diet we typically eat is not in the best
balance for the typical human. Given that man is an omnivore, he can eat
most anything. It's just that the myth of "you must have fruits, or grains,
and so on in your diet", is incorrect. As the Aleuts so clearly
demonstrate, one can survive quite well without them. But you can not
survive without fats and proteins.

> Of course, it may well be that in the "North American" diet the intake of
> non-carbohydrates is so high that carbohydrates could be eliminated
> without penalty (although the result might still be sub-optimal). But I
I don't get it. Are you suggesting that there's an evolutionary component
to the N.A. diet? If you are, that would be incorrect.

However, there is an evolutionary component to what's popularly known as a
"Paleolithic diet". Without removing ourselves from the mainstream of life
in America, we simply tilted our intake of carbs towards a more paleolithic
like diet. The pounds have been melting off...so we must be doing something
right... And I still enjoy some of my SD bread! (:-o)!

> doubt that in the "South Italian" diet you could eliminate bread and pasta
> and expect to survive on a few teaspoons of olive oil. I suppose
I think you're reading more into what I wrote than I'd intended. The
variety of "regional" diets are indeed that: regional. I don't think that
the average "South Italian" would be willing to forego his or her typical
foods in order to either prove or make a point. Nor should they. Besides,
in general, most Europeans are "normal" sized and not so commonly obese as
are so many of my countrymen.

> it would depend on the calories from vegetables, fruit, fish, meat and
> dairy in that case. In poor times, without fish or meat or very much
> dairy, bread and pasta was probably an essential source of protein at the
> very least.
Nobody was arguing that availability wasn't an issue. You eat what you can.
But we here have the option of eating less of some things. It's an option
we can employ. And the typical American eats too many carbs. Wa-a-ay too
many! There are many reasons for that: cheap, easy to store & transport,
easily flavored or "formatted" for effect, simple to make, etc...

Obviously, I bake, and I bake with sourdough. That means that I too eat
carbs. But I've scaled them back. Rather than a nice thick slice of my
Provender or Poilane, and a thin layer of sausage or some other meat on it,
now I eat a thin slice of bread with a thick layer of something on it.
Instead of cereal flakes for breakfast, I eat a hardboiled egg or a piece of
cheese. Instead of a steak, a salad, and a big, baked, butter or cottage
cheese drenched potato for dinner; I have a cauliflower instead. Hey! It's
been working for us. And while YMMV, the unsupported assertion that oils &
fats are bad, and that we eat too much meat is simply wrong.

> The general point is that the boundaries between "food groups" do not
> coincide with the boundaries between foods actually found in nature.
True enough. But I don't think we're discussing folks in a survival
nutrition mode here. That would be an animal of another color...

> I note in passing that the April 9-15 issue of New Scientist features an
> interview on "the cancer-prevention diet", which should be "high in
> starchy, unprocessed cereal foods" and "low in saturated fat (down to 30
> per cent from 40 per cent)", although where a 1997 report is mentioned it
> does say "starchy or protein-rich foods of plant origin (45 to 60 per
> cent)" rather than just starchy. (The latter percentages are of total
> energy; the former are not specified.)
Sounds like a regurgitation of the same dogma that we've been listening to
or reading about since the '60's. Anybody wanna point out any studies where
the obesity, cancer, or heart disease rate has plummeted since the advent of
that little fraud? Sadly enough--I've seen no such thing...

To me, it's a little like the difference between dumb and stupid. It's dumb
if you do (or don't do) something, and you don't get the result you
expected. That happens. But it's stupid if you do that same thing over and
over again, continue to get that same result, and expect to get something
else.

We've been hearing that same "eat low-fat and high-carb" mantra since the
'70's. Look around you. It doesn't seem to have been working. Perhaps
it's time to try something different...

> Anyway, in view of your comment that excess fat has a tendency to "slide
> right on through", it would be interesting to know what the typical
Yeah. It turns out that fats are pretty hard to prepare for transport
through the intestinal wall. And I'd suspect that each individuals ability
to do that would vary.

> metabolized (as opposed to nominal, or measured during complete
> combustion) calories/g is for different foods. It would presumably
It would indeed.

> depend on the eater's state, and therefore not be so easy to quote
> meaningfully. Are quoted calorific values an example of what in the
> education world I call "false target syndrome" (i.e. assessment based on
> what is easy to measure rather than on what is actually important)?
Yep.

The only points I was trying to make were that for too long we've been
laboring under the simply wrong "common wisdom" that fats and oils are bad
for you. Just as we've been laboring the "increase your carb consumption
for better health". Both are absolutely wrong! You need fats & oils, you
don't need carbs. Obviously too many of either aren't all that good for
you. So Marina's call to moderation is quite correct.

Now, back to getting ready to make a new loaf of my Provender SD for
tomorrow...(:-o)!


Later all,
Dusty
....

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message =
...

> ... You need fats & oils, you don't need carbs. ...

Hey Dusty, did'ja ever try tellin' that to a giraffe?

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...

> ... You need fats & oils, you don't need carbs. ...

Hey Dusty, did'ja ever try tellin' that to a giraffe?

[Hey Dicky, no. Did'ja ever try tellin' that to a polar bear?]

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...

> ... You need fats & oils, you don't need carbs. ...

Hey Dusty, did'ja ever try tellin' that to a giraffe?

[Hey Dicky, no. Did'ja ever try tellin' that to a polar bear?]

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message =
...

> > > You need fats & oils, you don't need carbs. ...
> > Hey Dusty, did'ja ever try tellin' that to a giraffe?
> Hey Dicky, no. Did'ja ever try tellin' that to a polar bear?=20
Hey Dusty, don't stand to close to the bear ---
Hi dietary fats and oil could be you.

(A wise person recently wrote that converting persons over=20
60 years of age to fuel could solve most of the problems our
President might be thinking about.)
((Fuel for bears is not counted.))

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...

> > > You need fats & oils, you don't need carbs. ...
> > Hey Dusty, did'ja ever try tellin' that to a giraffe?
> Hey Dicky, no. Did'ja ever try tellin' that to a polar bear?
Hey Dusty, don't stand to close to the bear ---
Hi dietary fats and oil could be you.

(A wise person recently wrote that converting persons over
60 years of age to fuel could solve most of the problems our
President might be thinking about.)
Whew! Then I'm still safe! How 'bout U? (:-o)!

((Fuel for bears is not counted.))
Heh,heh,heh...

--
Dusty
....

I agree Mike that canola (aka rape seed) oil isn't terrific in bread.
But paradoxically I find adding crushed flax seeds (aka rape seeds)
gives off some oil into the bread which improves the texture and also
provides a subtle nutty flavor. Especially with the whole grain breads
like Will and I make.

Mike Avery wrote,
>>Personally, I only use olive oil. A light olive oil if I don't want
the olive-y taste, a stronger one if I want the rich taste. I keep
hearing horror stories about canola oil (rape seed oil), and I'm not
that happy with other oils.<<

On 30 Apr 2005 11:04:38 -0700, "Jonathan Kandell"
> wrote:

>I find adding crushed flax seeds (aka rape seeds)
>gives off some oil into the bread which improves the texture and also
>provides a subtle nutty flavor.

Hi Jonathan,

When you write "aka" above, are you suggesting that flax
seed and rape seed are the same?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Jonathan Kandell wrote:

>I agree Mike that canola (aka rape seed) oil isn't terrific in bread.
>But paradoxically I find adding crushed flax seeds (aka rape seeds)
>gives off some oil into the bread which improves the texture and also
>provides a subtle nutty flavor. Especially with the whole grain breads
>like Will and I make.
>
Ahhh.. rape seed and flax seed are not at all the same, as far as I know.

A look at wikipedia says....

*Rapeseed* /Brassica napus/, also known as *Rape*, *Oilseed Rape*,
*Rapa*, *Rapaseed* and (one particular cultivar) *Canola*, is a bright
yellow flowering <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower> member of the
family Brassicaceae <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassicaceae>. The
name is derived through Old English
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English> from a term for turnip,
/rapum/. Some botanists include the closely related /Brassica
campestris/ within /B. napus/.

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Order: Brassicales
Family: Brassicaceae
Genus: Brassica
Species: B. napus
Binomial name
Brassica napus

Common *flax* (also known as *linseed*) is a member of the /Linaceae/
family, which includes about 150 plant species widely distributed around
the world. Some of them are grown in domestic flower beds, as flax is
one of the few truly blue flowers. (Most "blue" flowers are really a
shade of purple.)

Under the dwindling Cronquist system
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronquist_system> of classifying the
flowering plants <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plants>, flax
and related plants were placed in an order Linales
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Linales&action=edit>. Modern
classifications place them in the order Malpighiales
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malpighiales>.

Scientific classification
Kingdom: Plantae
Division: Magnoliophyta
Class: Magnoliopsida
Order: Malpighiales
Family: Linaceae
Genus: Linum
Species: L. usitatissimum L.
Binomial name
Linum usitatissimum L.
Linnaeus, 17??

In all.... not at all the same thing.

Mike

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> I agree Mike that canola (aka rape seed) oil isn't terrific in bread.
> But paradoxically I find adding crushed flax seeds (aka rape seeds)
> gives off some oil into the bread which improves the texture

Can't say that. Whenever I use flax seeds - wheather all whole (not your
situation) or 1/2 of it crushed (more your situation), the crumb
structure deteriorates more than without any seeds (non-brainer) or with
sunflower seeds. Don't know what exactly causes this, but my flax seed
bread is always denser. In the bread world, where more loft is better,
that's not an improvement. Compared to sunflower seeds (whole), it could
be the seed size and granularity i. e. more smaller particles do more
damage.

I am also not sure what you mean by "texture" - is it crumb, as in hole
size and shape or crumb density/elasticity what you see improved when
you cut off a slice. Or are you talking about the crust, where you see
maybe some differences?

> and also
> provides a subtle nutty flavor. Especially with the whole grain breads
> like Will and I make.

With whole grain breads, you have already a deterioration of "the ideal"
i. e. maximum possible loft per dough volume. What are the crushed seeds
doing good there under this aspect?

Also, it would be helpful to understand what you are talking about if
you mention how much you add - 1, 2, 5, 10 % seeds (mixed in the dough)
and what you using using - 100 % whole grain or a smaller percentage. My
guess and assumption would be that you use all-wheat (fine white and/or
whole).


Thank you in advance for elaborating.

Samartha

Ooops, a brainfart. Flax produces linseed oil, not rapeseed oil. Sorry
to all about the confusion. (Why do I feel like the Sourdough Swat
Team just crashed down my door?)

So it is not a mystery why I like flax seeds in my bread but not canola
oil. :-)

Sarmartha shouts,
>>I am also not sure what you mean by "texture" - is it crumb, as in
hole size and shape or crumb density/elasticity what you see improved
when you cut off a slice. Or are you talking about the crust, where you
see maybe some differences<<

I was answering Will's post, and he referred to his bread leaving
crumbs all over when sliced. The oil from the flax seems to bind stuff
better.

>>Whenever I use flax seeds - wheather all whole (not your situation)
or 1/2 of it crushed (more your situation), the crumb structure
deteriorates more than without any seeds (non-brainer) or with
sunflower seeds. Don't know what exactly causes this, but my flax seed
bread is always denser. In the bread world, where more loft is better,
that's not an improvement.<<

My experience is the opposite. My flax seed bread is not denser--but
since flax doesn't contain gluten one has got to make sure not to add
too much. I wonder why we have different results? Interesting.

>>With whole grain breads, you have already a deterioration of "the
ideal" i. e. maximum possible loft per dough volume. What are the
crushed seeds doing good there under this aspect?<<

That sure sounds like begging the question. Since when is "loft"
always better? Loft for loft's sake is not a virtue. If I wanted loft
I'd make a panettone.

Sam, you asked,
>>Also, it would be helpful to understand what you are talking about if
you mention how much you add - 1, 2, 5, 10 % seeds (mixed in the
dough) and what you using using - 100 % whole grain or a smaller
percentage. My guess and assumption would be that you use all-wheat
(fine white and/or whole).<<

100% whole wheat (Guisto's organic whole wheat bread flour). Baking for
me isn't rocket science, so forgive me if I can't provide all the
"specs". No rulers either; my bread doesn't need to "measure up."
Yes, you heard me right. Hello... Sam... you ok?... Here smell these
smelling salts... Sam? :-)

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message =
...

> > (A wise person recently wrote that converting persons over
> > 60 years of age to fuel could solve most of the problems our
> > President might be thinking about.)

> Whew! Then I'm still safe! How 'bout U? (:-o)!

I am reasonably avoiding dietary fats, particularly those of animal
origin. No one is safe. For every one, one dies, usually with
vascular disease. Check back with me in ten years -- let me know
if you are still alive.

--
Dicky =20

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
[...]

> My experience is the opposite. My flax seed bread is not denser--but
> since flax doesn't contain gluten one has got to make sure not to add
> too much. I wonder why we have different results? Interesting.

In this context, I use 9 % flax seed on mixed grain wheat rye. Flax all
seed or 50 % crushed. Bread comes out denser in both cases,
consistently. Bread crumbs "all over" have never been an issue with or
without seeds.


Samartha

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
[...]

> My experience is the opposite. My flax seed bread is not denser--but
> since flax doesn't contain gluten one has got to make sure not to add
> too much. I wonder why we have different results? Interesting.

In this context, I use 9 % flax seed on mixed grain wheat rye. Flax all
seed or 50 % crushed. Bread comes out denser in both cases,
consistently. Bread crumbs "all over" have never been an issue with or
without seeds.


Samartha

Still alive after fruit flies!

Was I s'posed to be usin' some kinda oil?

I dint know. Nobody told me.

Seems to work OK without any.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
....
> Whew! Then I'm still safe! How 'bout U? (:-o)!

I am reasonably avoiding dietary fats, particularly those of animal
[Donno why you'd want to do that...but that's just fine...]

origin. No one is safe. For every one, one dies, usually with
vascular disease. Check back with me in ten years -- let me know
if you are still alive.
[I will certainly endeavor to do so...try to be around...and we'll hoist a
few to celebrate...(:-o)!

Dusty]

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
....
> Whew! Then I'm still safe! How 'bout U? (:-o)!

I am reasonably avoiding dietary fats, particularly those of animal
[Donno why you'd want to do that...but that's just fine...]

origin. No one is safe. For every one, one dies, usually with
vascular disease. Check back with me in ten years -- let me know
if you are still alive.
[I will certainly endeavor to do so...try to be around...and we'll hoist a
few to celebrate...(:-o)!

Dusty]

--
Dicky

How else does your bread change with added flax, other than being
denser? I find with my desem loaf there is a moistness and slight
guminess to the crumb when I add flax which is similar to when one adds
oil--I'm guessing because some oil gets released when I partially grind
the seeds. Or it may be the "slime" quality one gets when flax seed
meets water. (For instance, Reinhart's "power bread" which has no oil
in it.) I am really curious why flax doesn't hurt my rise one iota but
does in your case. Facinating! I add mine at the beginning along with
the other ingredients, do you? I grind mine in a coffee grinder, so
it's a mix of chop. And why 9%? Speaking of flax, have you tried
Mestmacher's Linseed Bread (made with kernal rye, water, flaxseed, sea
salt and yeast)? Delicious!

Samartha wrote,
>>In this context, I use 9 % flax seed on mixed grain wheat rye. Flax
all seed or 50 % crushed. Bread comes out denser in both cases,
consistently.

How else does your bread change with added flax, other than being
denser? I find with my desem loaf there is a moistness and slight
guminess to the crumb when I add flax which is similar to when one adds
oil--I'm guessing because some oil gets released when I partially grind
the seeds. Or it may be the "slime" quality one gets when flax seed
meets water. (Take for instance, Reinhart's "power bread" which has no
oil in it.) I am really curious why flax doesn't hurt my rise one iota
but does in your case. Facinating! I add mine at the beginning along
with the other ingredients, do you? I grind mine in a coffee grinder,
so it's a mix of chop. And why 9%? (I add about 1/2 c flax to dough
containing about 4 1/3 c whole wheat flour.) Speaking of flax, have
you tried Mestmacher's Linseed Bread (made with kernal rye, water,
flaxseed, sea salt and yeast)? Delicious!

Samartha wrote,
>>In this context, I use 9 % flax seed on mixed grain wheat rye. Flax
all seed or 50 % crushed. Bread comes out denser in both cases,
consistently.

How else does your bread change with added flax, other than being
denser? I find with my desem loaf there is a moistness and slight
guminess to the crumb when I add flax which is similar to when one adds
oil--I'm guessing because some oil gets released when I partially grind
the seeds. Or it may be the "slime" quality one gets when flax seed
meets water. (Take for instance, Reinhart's "power bread" which has no
oil in it.) I am really curious why flax doesn't hurt my rise one iota
but does in your case. Facinating! I add mine at the beginning along
with the other ingredients, do you? I grind mine in a coffee grinder,
so it's a mix of chop. And why 9%? (I add about 1/2 c flax to dough
containing about 4 1/3 c whole wheat flour.) Speaking of flax, have
you tried Mestmacher's Linseed Bread (made with kernal rye, water,
flaxseed, sea salt and yeast)? Delicious!

Samartha wrote,
>>In this context, I use 9 % flax seed on mixed grain wheat rye. Flax
all seed or 50 % crushed. Bread comes out denser in both cases,
consistently.

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> How else does your bread change with added flax, other than being
> denser?

I would have to do a side to side comparison to _really_ find out more
than just "denser" apart from the obvious - taste, crumb, it could be
more "slimy" with the crushed seeds, they seem to have that quality.

> I find with my desem loaf there is a moistness and slight
> guminess to the crumb when I add flax which is similar to when one adds
> oil--I'm guessing because some oil gets released when I partially grind
> the seeds. Or it may be the "slime" quality one gets when flax seed
> meets water. (For instance, Reinhart's "power bread" which has no oil
> in it.) I am really curious why flax doesn't hurt my rise one iota but
> does in your case. Facinating! I add mine at the beginning along with
> the other ingredients, do you?

They go in at the end nowadays, before I put everything in at the
beginning; doesn't seem to make much of a difference with this type of
bread.

> I grind mine in a coffee grinder, so
> it's a mix of chop. And why 9%?

Well, why not? Gotta measure somehow. Does 1 cup of seeds, in a 3 lb
loaf sound better?

> Speaking of flax, have you tried
> Mestmacher's Linseed Bread (made with kernal rye, water, flaxseed, sea
> salt and yeast)? Delicious!
>
http://www.mestemacher.de/fwk.html

tried as in eating - I know the type. Too hard to get by where I live
and if not so, it would be probably expensive to live on.

Is that the type of bread you are making? If so, that's no surprise that
the seed makes no difference. That's the full grain
sprouting/scalding/soaking type.


Hey - just found out trick 323: how to get a pumpernickel which is stuck
in the pan out? Put it in the freezer for an hour, then pour hot water
on the back of the pan - plops right out.

Trick 321 was: How to prevent it from sticking in the first place: oil
the pan.

Trick 322 was: Ho to avoid pumpernickel dry out and cracking: Fill the
pan with water somewhere in the middle (12 hours) and keep a large
baking sheet on top of the heater elements on the bottom (electric oven)
full of water in the second half.

Note - I am talking stainless steel pans, the usual Teflon pans which
corrode.

Samartha

>Is that the type of bread you are making? If so, >that's no surprise
that the seed makes no >difference. That's the full grain sprouting/
>scalding/ soaking type.

No, I was talking about adding about 1/2 c of flax to a desem loaf.

>Is that the type of bread you are making? If so, >that's no surprise
that the seed makes no >difference. That's the full grain sprouting/
>scalding/ soaking type.

No, I was talking about adding about 1/2 c of flax to a desem loaf.

Ah.. Dusty, here we were, going along so well, then you have to become
insulting. I apologize that my sense of humor has fallen so flat for
you. Here, in our house, we happen to love Foamy the Squirrel. Would
you have been happier (though maybe more confused) had I posted a link
to "Jiggly Butt" (which is, in my opinion, even funnier)? The
"Fatkins" one was actually sent to me by a friend who was on the
"Atkins" thing for a while. Then she quit when it (invariably) stopped
working.. Then I recently shared it again when I learned from
*another* friend that his co-worker developed Bell's Palsy after his
severe moderation of carbohydrates in all forms (that one left me
slack-jawed - <giggle>). (Ah, pre-emptively, we acknowledge nothing
published to draw such a correlation.) Then again, what do I, or
anyone else I know, know about such things, eh? };-)

You read my post as "smug superiority", I read it/intended it
differently. Oh well, I'm not here to argue much of anything, been
there, done that, spent it all for the most part, but have other places
I'll use for such. I *will* allow my mother that "smug superiority"
(she *is* far superior in my decidedly prejudiced opinion), having a
Master's and not only continuing her own education, but helping others
with the same. That means that, in my opinion and that of the ADA,
she's fairly 'up on the latest'. But see, she's earned that "smug
superiority".. though she probably wouldn't quite appreciate Foamy,
either.

Anyway, let's move on sans insults, the only thing I initially did was
make a comment (a correct one at that) the saturation of hydrogen
in the fats found in coconuts. Oh yes, apparently I also made
extrapolations (or assumptions) that were incorrect, therein lies the
rub I suppose. It seems that we are generally in agreement in many
instances, and so, I am happy to let it stand at that point, not being
in need of finding more folks with which to argue or debate any point.

I actually find your remarks on cool places to dive and breeding fish
to be *far* more intriguing! Shall I "Google" Dusty Bleher? Are you
published anywhere, perhaps? Would love to widen the aquatic net! I'm
finding one particular Dusty Bleher, involved in solar.. "stuff", and
what appears to be another of the same name asking about bird-banding.
And someone computer software risks to the public, et al.
Unfortunately, the assertion of being the first to breed *any*
Pterophyllum spp. (P. scalare, P. altum) comes under question he
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...h_History.html

> The first successful breeders in the U.S.A. were from neighboring
Pennsylvania. > William Paullin and Franklin Barrett both achieved
the impossible in 1921 by > spawning and rearing about 100 fry.

Oh my.

Marina

Ah.. Dusty, here we were, going along so well, then you have to become
insulting. I apologize that my sense of humor has fallen so flat for
you. Here, in our house, we happen to love Foamy the Squirrel. Would
you have been happier (though maybe more confused) had I posted a link
to "Jiggly Butt" (which is, in my opinion, even funnier)? The
"Fatkins" one was actually sent to me by a friend who was on the
"Atkins" thing for a while. Then she quit when it (invariably) stopped
working.. Then I recently shared it again when I learned from
*another* friend that his co-worker developed Bell's Palsy after his
severe moderation of carbohydrates in all forms (that one left me
slack-jawed - <giggle>). (Ah, pre-emptively, we acknowledge nothing
published to draw such a correlation.) Then again, what do I, or
anyone else I know, know about such things, eh? };-)

You read my post as "smug superiority", I read it/intended it
differently. Oh well, I'm not here to argue much of anything, been
there, done that, spent it all for the most part, but have other places
I'll use for such. I *will* allow my mother that "smug superiority"
(she *is* far superior in my decidedly prejudiced opinion), having a
Master's and not only continuing her own education, but helping others
with the same. That means that, in my opinion and that of the ADA,
she's fairly 'up on the latest'. But see, she's earned that "smug
superiority".. though she probably wouldn't quite appreciate Foamy,
either.

Anyway, let's move on sans insults, the only thing I initially did was
make a comment (a correct one at that) the saturation of hydrogen
in the fats found in coconuts. Oh yes, apparently I also made
extrapolations (or assumptions) that were incorrect, therein lies the
rub I suppose. It seems that we are generally in agreement in many
instances, and so, I am happy to let it stand at that point, not being
in need of finding more folks with which to argue or debate any point.

I actually find your remarks on cool places to dive and breeding fish
to be *far* more intriguing! Shall I "Google" Dusty Bleher? Are you
published anywhere, perhaps? Would love to widen the aquatic net! I'm
finding one particular Dusty Bleher, involved in solar.. "stuff", and
what appears to be another of the same name asking about bird-banding.
And someone computer software risks to the public, et al.
Unfortunately, the assertion of being the first to breed *any*
Pterophyllum spp. (P. scalare, P. altum) comes under question he
http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...h_History.html

> The first successful breeders in the U.S.A. were from neighboring
Pennsylvania. > William Paullin and Franklin Barrett both achieved
the impossible in 1921 by > spawning and rearing about 100 fry.

Oh my.

Marina

"Seamaiden" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ah.. Dusty, here we were, going along so well, then you have to become
> insulting. I apologize that my sense of humor has fallen so flat for
I, of all people, should know that humor doesn't transit the bit-world well.
If that was humor, please forgive me as that aspect of it didn't translate
to me.

....
> "Atkins" thing for a while. Then she quit when it (invariably) stopped
"Invariably"? Donno that there's anything 'inevitable' about that. Some
folks stop doing things and blame any number of events as the cause.
Drinkers fall off of AA; smokers light 'em up; and some of the "porkers"
living amongst us don't cease bending their elbows.

> working.. Then I recently shared it again when I learned from
> *another* friend that his co-worker developed Bell's Palsy after his
> severe moderation of carbohydrates in all forms (that one left me
I'd sure love to see/hear more about that. Got any references? Cuz that
would seem unlikely.

In the event that such an outcome is inevitable (that would be bad JuJu), I
wonder how those numbers would compare to folks that develop diabetes,
heart-disease, arteriosclerosis, and so on from constant over-indulgence
exasperated by sugars...? (:-o)!

> slack-jawed - <giggle>). (Ah, pre-emptively, we acknowledge nothing
> published to draw such a correlation.) Then again, what do I, or
Oh. Okay. Got it. We can throw that out as if it were fact...and then
scurry behind the blinds... Yes. I do seem to be getting the drift here...

....
> You read my post as "smug superiority", I read it/intended it
> differently. Oh well, I'm not here to argue much of anything, been
Sorry. That wasn't quite it. As I'd mentioned previously, I didn't "get"
the humor aspect of your little ditty, so, failing that, it came across as
"smug superiority". Please forgive me my lack of understanding...

....
> Anyway, let's move on sans insults, the only thing I initially did was
> make a comment (a correct one at that) the saturation of hydrogen
> in the fats found in coconuts. Oh yes, apparently I also made
You are, of course, welcome to make any comment or cling to any belief you
like. I certainly have no intention of disabusing you of any of them. But
surely, from one so opinionated and knowledgeable, you could bestow upon
this ignorant one just a teensy-tiny bit of "evidence" that supports such a
contention. Science, and all knowledge for that matter, is built upon
levels of understanding. I'm apparently deficient in this matter, and would
dearly love to understand the "how" or "what" behind my errors in
comprehension. It certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong...(:-o)!

And believe me, getting it right (by being corrected, even having my nose
rubbed in "it" as necessary) is more important to me than clinging to
unsupportable beliefs.

....
> rub I suppose. It seems that we are generally in agreement in many
Indeed we are, milady.

....
> I actually find your remarks on cool places to dive and breeding fish
> to be *far* more intriguing! Shall I "Google" Dusty Bleher? Are you
As you wish...

> published anywhere, perhaps? Would love to widen the aquatic net! I'm
Yes. But not in the circles you'd traverse or under the name(s) you know
(just highly niche oriented technical arenas--nothing "fun" to
read...(:-o)!).

> finding one particular Dusty Bleher, involved in solar.. "stuff", and
Yep. That would be one of my endeavors. Been doing research, designing and
building experimental devices, and debunking misinformed eco-nitwits in that
arena for a couple of decades at least. See? Baking sourdough bread isn't
the only thing I do...(:-o)!

> what appears to be another of the same name asking about bird-banding.
> And someone computer software risks to the public, et al.
> Unfortunately, the assertion of being the first to breed *any*
> Pterophyllum spp. (P. scalare, P. altum) comes under question he
> http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/...h_History.html
>
>> The first successful breeders in the U.S.A. were from neighboring
> Pennsylvania. > William Paullin and Franklin Barrett both achieved
> the impossible in 1921 by > spawning and rearing about 100 fry.
Yep. So I've just read. Thank you for this in situ readjustment of my
"understanding" of that event.

You caught me erroneously promulgating what I was told by a fish
breeder/seller in Hamburg, New York, in the late '50's/early '60's. The
books and material I had access to were probably printed in the 30's or 40's
and made no mention of a successful breeding of my silver angles anywhere in
the world--only failures. Now I've been updated, and I thank you for that.
See? I am correctable...(:-)! R U?

Gotta go. Got sails to repair, a bilge pump diaphragm to replace, a
halyard/cable splice to finish, a couple of websites to update, and get a
report on an IBIS toolbar hijacker to write to my gang of super 'puter
sleuths...


Dusty