"Will" > wrote in news:1112892006.656090.303740
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> I noticed that you wrote: "all flavor in bread comes from a starter OR
> yeast". That isn't particularly true. The next time you bake, using
> your regular dough, do one loaf at 500F and another at 350F. Let us
> know what you discover.
>
> Will
>
>

Save me the trouble, Will.

What IS the difference in taste?

Samartha Deva > wrote in
news:mailman.1113270966.27730.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c
om:

>
> To prevent this from happening, it is hereby stated:
>
> Usage of widely different temperatures with Carl's sourdough is
> encouraged, be it in single- or multi-stage processes or just for the
> heck of it. From freezing to scalding, go for it and play!
>
>
> Samartha



The other day I mixed together some yogurt and some buttermilk, and fed
that "starter" to a gallon of warm sterile milk. They have different
bacterias in them, and I wanted to see what happened if I let the
innoculated milk sit at around 85 degrees F for 5 hours. Would I get
yogurt or would I get quark?

Well, it turned out that I got quark, as evidenced by the rich, mild
taste, slacker goo, and lack of sourness or tang. Clearly, the bacteria
in the buttermilk was dominant, and I think it was because of the
fermentation temperature.

I did not try letting a batch ferment at 110 degrees F, the proper
temperature for making yogurt. Next time I make a batch, I'll make half
at 110 and the other half at 85. If the 110 is tangy and the 85 is
mellow, then I'll know the lactobacillus bulgaricus took over in the 110
to make yogurt, and the lactobacillus cremora took over in 85 to make
quark.

I believe science has well established the temperatures at which various
microbes grow best, all other factors being ideal for the cultures. If
you want one strain to dominate, and many strains are present in equal
proportion, you merely let the mixed-strain culture ferment at the temp
that favors the strain you want.

I cannot imagine there being a different truth for bread dough than for
other culture media, can you?

My question to you is:

What the bacteria and yeasts are present in Carl's starter, as opposed to
other starters, and what are the most favored fermentation temperatures
for the ones that give a tangy taste?

I understand from some reading I've done that some bacteria get a good
start in sponge phase 1 where the sponge ferments for 2 1/2 hours at room
temperature, then you elevate the temperature to around 90F for the other
two sponge phases. Is this because different bacteria develop in the
first stage than in subsequent stages?

Samartha Deva > wrote in
news:mailman.1113270966.27730.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c
om:

>
> To prevent this from happening, it is hereby stated:
>
> Usage of widely different temperatures with Carl's sourdough is
> encouraged, be it in single- or multi-stage processes or just for the
> heck of it. From freezing to scalding, go for it and play!
>
>
> Samartha



The other day I mixed together some yogurt and some buttermilk, and fed
that "starter" to a gallon of warm sterile milk. They have different
bacterias in them, and I wanted to see what happened if I let the
innoculated milk sit at around 85 degrees F for 5 hours. Would I get
yogurt or would I get quark?

Well, it turned out that I got quark, as evidenced by the rich, mild
taste, slacker goo, and lack of sourness or tang. Clearly, the bacteria
in the buttermilk was dominant, and I think it was because of the
fermentation temperature.

I did not try letting a batch ferment at 110 degrees F, the proper
temperature for making yogurt. Next time I make a batch, I'll make half
at 110 and the other half at 85. If the 110 is tangy and the 85 is
mellow, then I'll know the lactobacillus bulgaricus took over in the 110
to make yogurt, and the lactobacillus cremora took over in 85 to make
quark.

I believe science has well established the temperatures at which various
microbes grow best, all other factors being ideal for the cultures. If
you want one strain to dominate, and many strains are present in equal
proportion, you merely let the mixed-strain culture ferment at the temp
that favors the strain you want.

I cannot imagine there being a different truth for bread dough than for
other culture media, can you?

My question to you is:

What the bacteria and yeasts are present in Carl's starter, as opposed to
other starters, and what are the most favored fermentation temperatures
for the ones that give a tangy taste?

I understand from some reading I've done that some bacteria get a good
start in sponge phase 1 where the sponge ferments for 2 1/2 hours at room
temperature, then you elevate the temperature to around 90F for the other
two sponge phases. Is this because different bacteria develop in the
first stage than in subsequent stages?

On 4/13/05 5:29 PM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:

> "Will" > wrote in news:1112892006.656090.303740
> @f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I noticed that you wrote: "all flavor in bread comes from a starter OR
>> yeast". That isn't particularly true. The next time you bake, using
>> your regular dough, do one loaf at 500F and another at 350F. Let us
>> know what you discover.
>>
>> Will
>
> Save me the trouble, Will.
>
> What IS the difference in taste?

Baking your standard loaves at 500 vs. 350 will produce differences in
crust, crumb and flavor. It has to do with the caramelizing of the sugars in
the crust and the gelatinizing of starch in the crumb. I suggested you do
the exercise to get a fuller understanding of dough ripening. The
temperature spread is enough to tell you quite a bit about your current
proofing assumptions. From that, it follows that flavor in conjunction with
a fully ripened dough is more than a starter issue. It is about acid
balance, fermentation tolerance, etc... etc...

Were I to do the exercise myself, one loaf would probably blow up. If I
skewed the proof (or the build) to prevent the blow up, the other loaf would
be a brick. In either case, they would not taste the same.

On 4/13/05 6:01 PM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:

> The other day I mixed together some yogurt and some buttermilk, and fed
> that "starter" to a gallon of warm sterile milk. They have different
> bacterias in them, and I wanted to see what happened if I let the
> innoculated milk sit at around 85 degrees F for 5 hours. Would I get
> yogurt or would I get quark?
>
> Well, it turned out that I got quark, as evidenced by the rich, mild
> taste, slacker goo, and lack of sourness or tang. Clearly, the bacteria
> in the buttermilk was dominant, and I think it was because of the
> fermentation temperature.

Not quite. Yogurt culture (like bread levain) is very sensitive to acid. So
it's not that the buttermilk culture dominates (due to temperature), it's
the whole concoction is too sour for the yogurt to ferment. Buttermilk is
already soured. This is much like using old, unrefreshed starter in a dough
then getting a bad rise. Same symptoms too: goo, sticky, no structure...

Try draining your yogurt first. Add one or two tablespoons of drained yogurt
(it's less acidic without the whey component) to about 1.5 quarts of milk.
Let that ferment at 90F for about 7 or 8 hours. Not only will the finished
batch taste good, you'll notice a better texture than anything you can buy
at the store. Drink the buttermilk, or put it in your pancakes.

Gonorio... Your instincts are not quite there, though I applaud your sense
of adventure. First you muck up bread with potatoes, chipotles and carrot
juice. Then you decide that flavor equals starter. To hell with centuries of
craft baking which indicates technique. Now you jump the gun on something as
simple as yogurt. You say every microbe ferments at it's own temperature.
What's the news there?

"Will" rhetorically queried "Gonorio Dineri":

> You say every microbe ferments at it's own temperature.
> What's the news there?

It would be most useful if each had its own specific temperature,
and certainly newsworthy.

But time-temperature characteristics for fermentation come in
rather broad ranges, certainly not sharp peaks.

For instance, for certain sourdough microbes, see
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F1

So I do not think "To each his own" is a good theme song for
sourdough microbes to sing about their temperature
dependencies.

--
DickA

P.S. I have proposed that the presence of yeast in a compound
culture of yeast and lactobacteria may affect the progress and=20
nature of fermentation to the extent that yeast potentially is food=20
for the bacteria. To wit: that the final production of flavor/acidity
in fermenting sourdough is greatly the effect of a feeding frenzy,
as yeasts starve, and bacteria feast on their weakened little bodies.

"Dick Adams" > wrote in news:7bv7e.74988$cg1.62242
@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:

>
> "Will" rhetorically queried "Gonorio Dineri":
>
>> You say every microbe ferments at it's own temperature.
>> What's the news there?
>
> It would be most useful if each had its own specific temperature,
> and certainly newsworthy.
>
> But time-temperature characteristics for fermentation come in
> rather broad ranges, certainly not sharp peaks.
>
> For instance, for certain sourdough microbes, see
> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F1
>
> So I do not think "To each his own" is a good theme song for
> sourdough microbes to sing about their temperature
> dependencies.
>
> --
> DickA
>
> P.S. I have proposed that the presence of yeast in a compound
> culture of yeast and lactobacteria may affect the progress and
> nature of fermentation to the extent that yeast potentially is food
> for the bacteria. To wit: that the final production of flavor/acidity
> in fermenting sourdough is greatly the effect of a feeding frenzy,
> as yeasts starve, and bacteria feast on their weakened little bodies.
>
>
>

Dick, on the chart you cited I see salient PEAKS at 28C (82F) at 25
minutes for the candida milleri yeast, and 33C (91F) at 45 minutes for
the bacillus sanfranciscensis bacteria. It might not be news that every
microbe ferments at its own temperature in its own good time, but it
certainly is a fact.

Samartha's three-phase sponge technique, derived from centuries old
European baking craft and validated by modern science, does provide two
temperatures at which the sponge is allowed to develop. Phase 1 grows at
a lower temperature than phases 2 and 3. That seems to corroborate my
comments, don't you think?

Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes present in
Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.

However, I do appreciate your comments about the symbiosis between yeast
and bacteria.

Will wrote:
>
> On 4/13/05 6:01 PM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:
>
>
> Not quite.

Not quite, is exactly right. I have a lot to add to "not
quite." And, if I am still able to function after Tax Day, you
may have to suffer through it.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Will wrote:
>
> On 4/13/05 6:01 PM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:
>
>
> Not quite.

Not quite, is exactly right. I have a lot to add to "not
quite." And, if I am still able to function after Tax Day, you
may have to suffer through it.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Will > wrote in
news:mailman.6.1113444770.62570.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com:

> On 4/13/05 6:01 PM, "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote:
>
>>
> Yogurt culture (like bread levain) is very sensitive to
> acid. So it's not that the buttermilk culture dominates (due to
> temperature), it's the whole concoction is too sour for the yogurt to
> ferment. Buttermilk is already soured.

Thanks for explaining that, Will. Yogurt is already soured, too, and it
is much more sour than buttermilk.

When I put a cup of yogurt/buttermilk starter in a gallon of warm sterile
milk, the milk was not acidic at all. Thus, all the bacteria were off to
a good running start in a medium they could use as food without being
suppressed by acid.

To avoid error from embracing your conjecture, I'm going to try the
experiment again with two batches at different temperatures. I'll report
the results.

> First you muck up bread with potatoes, chipotles and carrot juice.

Potato is good starter/sponge food. I find that it gives the bread a
chewier crumb and a nice flavor. The vegetable juice and chipotles give
the bread a unique and delicious taste, too. Yes, they all muck up your
ideal of sourdough bread, but my customers love it, and so do I. Plus, I
enjoy the experimenting. If you ever find yourself yearning for some
adventure, you might try it and see how your family responds.

> Then you decide that flavor equals starter. To hell
> with centuries of craft baking which indicates technique.

I am not so skilled at baking craft yet, but I am becoming more so as I
learn its why-and-wherefore. I appreciate the responses of the bakers in
this newsgroup for that very reason. I believe it important to learn the
craft from experts FIRST, then to experiement, if I must, but what the
heck, I can't restrain myself from premature experimentation. Thanks for
your contributions to my education.

> Now you jump > the gun on something as simple as yogurt. You say every
> microbe ferments at it's own temperature. What's the news there?

It's not news, but it is a reality.

Rising bread dough is much less acidic than yogurt or buttermilk, and so
I do not see why it does not provide food for lactobacillus bulgaricus
and lactobacillus cremora, particularly if I use milk instead of water in
the dough. Those bacteria like to eat milk (hence their names) so they
should ferment in the dough, and contribute flavor to it. Have you tried
it? If not, how do you know it's not worth trying?


>
> Try draining your yogurt first. Add one or two tablespoons of drained
> yogurt (it's less acidic without the whey component) to about 1.5
> quarts of milk. Let that ferment at 90F for about 7 or 8 hours. Not
> only will the finished batch taste good, you'll notice a better
> texture than anything you can buy at the store. Drink the buttermilk,
> or put it in your pancakes.
>

Here's how I've been doing it for the past 5 years. I put a cup of
yogurt in a gallon of sterilized warm milk containing two cups of
powdered milk to add body, and ferment it at 110F for 4 1/2 hours. I have
found that longer times makes it too sour, and shorter times not tangy
enough. I sterilize the milk by elevating it to 185F, then I cool it to
120F and innoculate it with the culture.

I do the same thing with buttermilk as an innoculate, but ferment it 16
hours at 85F in a stainless steel pot.When finished, it is a thick goo
that is set like, but not as stiff as, yogurt. I then pour the gooey
mass into a fine-mesh nylon bag and hang it above the pot to drip for 8
hours. I save the whey for drinking and baking, and pack the resulting
"quark" (cottage cheese) into 1-quart containers. About half the volume
of the goo is whey, so I get a little over 2 quarts of quark.

I like quark cheese much better than yogurt cheese, and so do my
customers. The yogurt cheese is too sour for my taste, and not as rich-
tasting as the quark.

For the next batch of yogurt I make, I shall, in keeping with your
suggestion, reduce the volume of the innoculate to 1/4 cup and increase
the fermentation time to 8 hours.

# # #

Gonorio Dineri > wrote in
:

> "Dick Adams" > wrote in
> news:7bv7e.74988$cg1.62242 @bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
>
>>
>> "Will" rhetorically queried "Gonorio Dineri":
>>
>>> You say every microbe ferments at it's own temperature.
>>> What's the news there?
>>
>> It would be most useful if each had its own specific temperature,
>> and certainly newsworthy.
>>
>> But time-temperature characteristics for fermentation come in
>> rather broad ranges, certainly not sharp peaks.
>>
>> For instance, for certain sourdough microbes, see
>> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F1
>>


The article associated with the above link is interesting. Thanks for
posting the link. Note the below, from which I draw these conclusions:


Temperature, time, salt, acidity, types of sugars, and presence of other
microbes affect bacterias and yeasts differently in the fermentation
process. The trick (the goal of baking craft) is to combine the factors
so as to produce delicious texture, aroma, and flavor. That is achieved
with San Francisco sourdough bread more readily than most, which is why
the study was done. It is okay to experiment with sourdough processes so
as to make better breads.

Excerpts:


The observation that L. sanfranciscensis LTH2581 and LTH1729 and C.
milleri LTH H198 exhibit the same response to temperatures below 26°C
provides an explanation for the stable association of these organisms in
a sourdough for more than 20 years (2). Our data are furthermore in
agreement with the "baker's rule" that low temperatures during sourdough
fermentations (20 to 26°C) are better for yeast growth than higher
temperatures (30).

....increasing dough yields leads to faster acidification of doughs. The
addition of salt may alter the composition of the microflora, because C.
milleri is much less sensitive to salt than the strains of L.
sanfranciscensis. Yeast growth in dough may even be stimulated by the
addition of NaCl.

....the addition of NaCl to wheat doughs inhibited the growth of lactic
acid bacteria while it exerted a stimulating effect on yeast (9).

pH has little effect on the growth of C. milleri is in accordance with
our earlier observations of a cereal-based growth medium.

Remarkably, the growth of L. sanfranciscensis was not inhibited by
undissociated acetic acid.

The growth of C. milleri was strongly inhibited by acetic acid, and was
inhibited to a much lesser extent by lactic acid.

Certain strains of heterofermentative lactobacilli are known to grow at
ethanol concentrations as high as 18% (4). Because the ethanol
concentration in doughs does not exceed 1%, it is unlikely to exert an
inhibitory effect on lactobacilli but may contribute to the inhibition of
yeast growth. Unlike the metabolic end products lactate, acetate, and
ethanol, CO2 does not accumulate in the dough during fermentation but
rather is dissolved in equilibrium to a 100% CO2 athmosphere.

The importance of antagonistic and synergistic interactions between
yeasts and lactobacilli based on the metabolism of carbohydrates and
amino acids was emphasized by Gobbetti and Corsetti (10). However,
sourdough yeasts do not affect the cell yield of L. sanfranciscensis in
sourdough (8, 27, 32). This is consistent with the conclusion that under
practical conditions the pH is the limiting factor for growth of
lactobacilli. The maltose, amino acid, and peptide concentrations are not
depleted during sourdough fermentations in wheat or rye doughs (16, 19,
31). Maltose is the preferred carbon source for L. sanfranciscensis but
is not utilized by either C. milleri or S. exiguus (12). The cell yield
of C. milleri and S. exiguus is greatly reduced in the presence of
lactobacilli both in wheat and in rye doughs (8, 27). The accumulation of
metabolic end products of the heterolactic fermentation inhibits the
growth of these yeasts in sourdough. The glucose concentration in rye
flours and whole-wheat flours remains high enough to support yeast growth
throughout the fermentation (19, 23). Fermentations that employ white
wheat flours as the raw materials are characterized by low concentrations
of glucose, and small amounts of lactic acid are produced because of the
low buffering capacity. In these doughs, depletion of glucose and
fructose may occur and limit the growth of yeasts (19, 27).

Generally, the predictions made with the model are in good agreement with
the literature data on dough available, indicating that the most
important factors contributing to the microbial stability of sourdough
fermentations have been taken into account. A more detailed verification
of the model in situ is in progress. The model allows the assessment of
factors contributing to the stable association of lactobacilli and yeasts
in traditional sourdough fermentations, and it can therefore provide
important information for the design of novel sourdough processes.

> Samartha's three-phase sponge technique, derived from centuries old
> European baking craft and validated by modern science, does provide two
> temperatures at which the sponge is allowed to develop. Phase 1 grows at
> a lower temperature than phases 2 and 3. That seems to corroborate my
> comments, don't you think?

It does indeed. In fact, I almost asked why you didn't discuss Detmold in
your earlier post about temperature flavoring specific populations.
>
> Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes present in
> Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.

True enough. I wouldn't recognize the yeasts if they carried signs. As far
as fermentation temperatures go, that's personal choice isn't it? Dan Wing
published the ranges back in 1997. They are either in the FAQ's or found
more easily at Samartha's site. Temperature and pre-fermenting are part of
what I use to control flavor. Though another, and I would argue, more
fundamental, is flour choice. There's got to be a reason that so many bakers
here pay 2 or 3 times more for KA than Pillsbury.

> Samartha's three-phase sponge technique, derived from centuries old
> European baking craft and validated by modern science, does provide two
> temperatures at which the sponge is allowed to develop. Phase 1 grows at
> a lower temperature than phases 2 and 3. That seems to corroborate my
> comments, don't you think?

It does indeed. In fact, I almost asked why you didn't discuss Detmold in
your earlier post about temperature flavoring specific populations.
>
> Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes present in
> Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.

True enough. I wouldn't recognize the yeasts if they carried signs. As far
as fermentation temperatures go, that's personal choice isn't it? Dan Wing
published the ranges back in 1997. They are either in the FAQ's or found
more easily at Samartha's site. Temperature and pre-fermenting are part of
what I use to control flavor. Though another, and I would argue, more
fundamental, is flour choice. There's got to be a reason that so many bakers
here pay 2 or 3 times more for KA than Pillsbury.

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message =
.. .

> Samartha's three-phase sponge technique, derived from centuries old=20
> European baking craft and validated by modern science, does provide =
two=20
> temperatures at which the sponge is allowed to develop. Phase 1 grows =
at=20
> a lower temperature than phases 2 and 3. That seems to corroborate my =

> comments, don't you think?

Samartha's researches might well be interpreted to link your opinions to =
the=20
wisdom of the ages, not to mention the phases of the moon.

> Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes present =
in=20
> Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.

Will and I are trying to contact Carl. Then we will get back to you.

--
DickA

Will > wrote in
news:mailman.7.1113496873.62570.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com:


> True enough. I wouldn't recognize the yeasts if they carried signs. As
> far as fermentation temperatures go, that's personal choice isn't it?
> Dan Wing published the ranges back in 1997. They are either in the
> FAQ's or found more easily at Samartha's site. Temperature and
> pre-fermenting are part of what I use to control flavor. Though
> another, and I would argue, more fundamental, is flour choice. There's
> got to be a reason that so many bakers here pay 2 or 3 times more for
> KA than Pillsbury.
>
>

I've been buying Albertson's bread flour lately for $1.29 per 5-pound bag.
Reading the label, I discovered it has identical ingredients to KA
Unbleached Bread Flour, and as you pointed out, it's much less expensive.
The difference is that the Alberton's flour is noticeably whiter. Do you
suppose that matters?

And you know what? Albertson's makes excellent bread. Unless I do a side-
by-side comparison, I can't tell the difference between it and KA when it
comes to taste. And, I haven't done a side-by-side test.

"Dick Adams" > wrote in
:

>
> Samartha's researches might well be interpreted to link your opinions
> to the wisdom of the ages, not to mention the phases of the moon.
>
>> Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes present
> in
>> Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.
>
> Will and I are trying to contact Carl. Then we will get back to you.
>
> --
> DickA
>
>

You can always be counted on for leavening (or is it levity) in this group.
Maybe Roy or some other pro baker will get a sample of Carl's to a lab for
testing and cataloguing.

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
snip
> I've been buying Albertson's bread flour lately for $1.29 per 5-pound bag.
> Reading the label, I discovered it has identical ingredients to KA
> Unbleached Bread Flour,
Identical? Isn't that a little like saying a Ford and a Chevy are identical
because they both have tires? You know nothing of the ultimate components
of either flour other than it is called bread flour.
Janet

I concur. Even knowing that two different flour brands were both milled
from hard winter wheat to the same total protein specification, there can
still be significant differences in each flour's performance
characteristics. Heck, I've seen performance differences in different lots
of the SAME brand.

- Steve Brandt

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
> .. .
> snip
>> I've been buying Albertson's bread flour lately for $1.29 per 5-pound
>> bag.
>> Reading the label, I discovered it has identical ingredients to KA
>> Unbleached Bread Flour,
> Identical? Isn't that a little like saying a Ford and a Chevy are
> identical because they both have tires? You know nothing of the ultimate
> components of either flour other than it is called bread flour.
> Janet

>Even knowing that two different flour brands were both milled
>from hard winter wheat to the same total protein specification, there
can
>still be significant differences in each flour's performance
>characteristics. Heck, I've seen performance differences in different
lots
>of the SAME brand.

That is true.....flour even from the same manufacturer but milled at
different times or periods can have variability in baking performance.
But that is normal. The quality control department of any flour mill
had the so called acceptable range of flour quality performance
specifications .i.e, protein content, farinograph, extensograph and
amylograph readings, ash and moisture content.
But the ultimate judge for such experimental parameters is the
experimental baking test.
Even at this point of flour evaluation the test baker had also its so
called baking quality performance range where a flour can be finally
labeled in his tests as passed or rejected.
In some cases specially in peak demands and there is no time to do the
time consuming baking tests, the flour is considered passed when it has
passed the normal laboratory evaluation procedures without the benefit
of baking tests.
I am not sure of king arthur follows the standards of the well know
flour millers like for example Conagra ,General Mills, Pillsbury etc
or they have their own systems
One thing that complicates the test baking procedure is that if King
Arthur flours are designed for artisanal baking and therefore ;
specifically test a particular flour for artisanal typeof bread which
does not provide measurable qualities such as bread volume in cubic
centimeter or inches per gram/ounce, standard bread grading parameters
including textural characteristics ,crumb color and grain which are
detailed and quantifiable.( provided with numbers to signify its
grade).
Look artisanal loaves does not require much of so called product
consistency and uniformity like the industrial loaf so its likely that
flour for such purpose had higher variability. The bottom line that the
miller had to ensure that the protein level is up to the minimum level.
With such a loose baking evaluation which is based on artisanal bread
which are not even considered standard recipe to test flour by
traditional flour millers.; variability can be more significant than
for flour designed for industrial baking which have tighter quality
and baking performance specifications.
Roy

>get a sample of Carl's to a lab for testing and cataloguing.

Carls starter is already popular and its proprietor should already had
an idea what ' creatures are supposed to be thriving in their product.

"Roy" > wrote:

>Carls starter is already popular and its proprietor should already had
>an idea what ' creatures are supposed to be thriving in their product.

You really don't know, do you?
Check out the web site
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

>You really don't know, do you?
>Check out the web site

Gary what is your point? Do I have to watch a military style funeral of
an old man as displayed in that URL?
I don't need to as I had attended military training in my younger days.
and had my share of attending funerals as well.
BTW,I was once a drummer for a short time in the ,military band.in
those days.
How about you?
.. How close you are to a military style burial, or are you also
interested on attaining burial with honors<g>.No problem mate.... I
will be one of the guys beating the drums for your hearse<g>
If you prefer....
I woudn't mind carrying your beloved, the urn( containing the jar) of
the the Carl starter to be buried with you<g>
Roy

"Roy" > wrote:

>Gary what is your point? Do I have to watch a military style funeral of
>an old man as displayed in that URL?

The point was that Carl ain't telling. More to the point, unless you spend
big bucks for a lab culture/identification, you won't know what's in that
sourdough culture. I humbly submit you shouldn't.
I'm not sure that all the military blather has much to do with sourdough,
and I only played French Horn in the boot camp band before ultimately
earning a good conduct medal for four years of undetected crime.
But that was long ago, in an ocean far away.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Roy" > wrote:

>Gary what is your point? Do I have to watch a military style funeral of
>an old man as displayed in that URL?

The point was that Carl ain't telling. More to the point, unless you spend
big bucks for a lab culture/identification, you won't know what's in that
sourdough culture. I humbly submit you shouldn't.
I'm not sure that all the military blather has much to do with sourdough,
and I only played French Horn in the boot camp band before ultimately
earning a good conduct medal for four years of undetected crime.
But that was long ago, in an ocean far away.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Gary Woods wrote:
> "Roy" > wrote:
>
>
>>Gary what is your point? Do I have to watch a military style funeral of
>>an old man as displayed in that URL?
>
>
> The point was that Carl ain't telling. More to the point, unless you spend
> big bucks for a lab culture/identification, you won't know what's in that
> sourdough culture.
> I humbly submit you shouldn't.

Why not? To cover the cost, King Roy could make a donation for that test to:

Oregon Trail Sourdough
P. O. Box 321
Jefferson, MD 21755 USA

Note, on the web site, it says:
Please do not publicize the above postal address , as it will change
from time to time.


Now - is that going to work? It costs probably a chunk of money. Could a
larger donation check written to Oregon Trail Sourdough be cashed there?

Samartha

Gary Woods wrote:
> "Roy" > wrote:
>
>
>>Gary what is your point? Do I have to watch a military style funeral of
>>an old man as displayed in that URL?
>
>
> The point was that Carl ain't telling. More to the point, unless you spend
> big bucks for a lab culture/identification, you won't know what's in that
> sourdough culture.
> I humbly submit you shouldn't.

Why not? To cover the cost, King Roy could make a donation for that test to:

Oregon Trail Sourdough
P. O. Box 321
Jefferson, MD 21755 USA

Note, on the web site, it says:
Please do not publicize the above postal address , as it will change
from time to time.


Now - is that going to work? It costs probably a chunk of money. Could a
larger donation check written to Oregon Trail Sourdough be cashed there?

Samartha

On 4/20/05 8:04 AM, "Gary Woods" > wrote:

> The point was that Carl ain't telling.

The point is, Carl didn't know. Nor do any of his friends. And, as you point
out in the section I snipped: it doesn't matter. And if someone writes a
large check to figure this out, as Samartha just posted, WHO WILL CARE?

This morning, I've got another new starter working to lift its first dough.
It's one of those really simple ones: no potato, grape skin, yogurt,
buttermilk, nose puppies... I didn't worry about whether the tap water was
dechlorinated or whether the mixing spoon was nickel steel or regular
stainless. This one began as wheat berries, soaked, mashed and fermented,
not even milled. Do I know what's in it? Not a clue.

It smells fresh and cidery, for whatever that's worth. Would it work better
if it were ancient: passed down from the days of wagon trains or pyramid
building? Don't know that either.

Will it proof better at 78.00004 F. or would 29.00327 C. put it in the zone?
Can't say.

Now... I heard a rumor, from a reliable source. To wit: These posters, who
are techno-science baking are also from the same demographic that rip their
bread with $200 knives that say Emeril on them somewhere.

Is this true?

Will wrote:
> On 4/20/05 8:04 AM, "Gary Woods" > wrote:
>
>
>>The point was that Carl ain't telling.
>
>
> The point is, Carl didn't know. Nor do any of his friends. And, as you point
> out in the section I snipped: it doesn't matter. And if someone writes a
> large check to figure this out, as Samartha just posted, WHO WILL CARE?

Dunno - but for sure it could be used to shut up the recurring posts:
Carl's does not get sour, tangy enough, not rising.... and put it in
front of other starter suppliers:

Fella: oss gotta cartifaid crittars in thee LB strains LTHXXXX and
LTHYYYY with a dominating candida milleri strain LTHZZZZ.

Not oua fawlt if ya messin up, go lean da ropes haw to be cortshas to ya
stata.

On the high tech side - if the strains are documented you could really
exercise them by the book.

I'd find it slick.

Haven't yet estimated DA's nOObee blast firepower increase with this.


Samartha

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Dunno - but for sure it could be used to shut up the recurring posts:

> Carl's does not get sour, tangy enough, not rising....

Those posts would evolve: mitochondrial smears and calcium tolerance
numbers would be next.
Someone would want to know if there was hydroxyl group hanging off the
side of the alpha-LB when it conjugates.

>and put it in front of other starter suppliers:

Ed Woods wouldn't care. His schtick is glamour. His latest critters
were captured in a volcano in Rotorua. They ferment houses in their off
hours.

Like I said, the ingredients are about the same, and if I get good bread
from Albertson's, why pay double, triple, or quadruple for KA?

If I were running a bakery, I might insist on a proper test of the flour
before using it.

Since I don't, my test is: make a batch of bread, and if it comes out
delightfully risen, crumby, smelly, tasty, and chewy, the FLOUR (not to
mention my preparation and baking skill) is GOOD.

"Roy" > wrote in news:1113959404.477027.104700
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

>>get a sample of Carl's to a lab for testing and cataloguing.
>
> Carls starter is already popular and its proprietor should already had
> an idea what ' creatures are supposed to be thriving in their product.
>
>

I'm guessing Carl had no idea whatsoever. If I recall rightly, the starter
was handed down as family tradition and it made good bread. Critter
content was irrelevant then as it is now.

Except for one thing. It might contain unique strains of yeast and
bacteria. If so, maybe the bacteria would be called lactobacillus carlus.

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
>
> > Samartha's three-phase sponge technique, derived from centuries old

> > European baking craft and validated by modern science, does provide
two
> > temperatures at which the sponge is allowed to develop. Phase 1
grows at
> > a lower temperature than phases 2 and 3. That seems to corroborate
my
> > comments, don't you think?
>
> Samartha's researches might well be interpreted to link your opinions
to the
> wisdom of the ages, not to mention the phases of the moon.
>
> > Neither you nor Will answered my question about the microbes
present in
> > Carl's starter and what favorable fermentation temperatures.
>
> Will and I are trying to contact Carl. Then we will get back to you.
>
> --
> DickA

There are no microbes present.