Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
HUTCHNDI
 
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Default Unglazed Quarry Tiles

I know, I am being a pest.

I just picked up some unglazed quarry tiles at Lowes. 8"x8"x1/2"....Does
anybody have any experience using them or a link that may be helpful? I am
wondering things like do I need a space for air circulation between the
walls, do I bake directly on them or use parchment, do they need to be
seasoned, can I leave them in place all the time, ....

Thanks, Hutchndi


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:37:27 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote:

>I know, I am being a pest.
>
>I just picked up some unglazed quarry tiles at Lowes. 8"x8"x1/2"....Does
>anybody have any experience using them or a link that may be helpful? I am
>wondering things like do I need a space for air circulation between the
>walls, do I bake directly on them or use parchment, do they need to be
>seasoned, can I leave them in place all the time, ....
>
>Thanks, Hutchndi
>


Howdy,

You are not being a pest at all...

You need not worry about "space" because no matter how you
align them, there will certainly be spaces.

They don't need any preparation other than washing them off
before you bake on 'em.

You can use things like parchment paper, or you can bake
right on the tiles if you are using an intermediary surface
such as a peel.

All that said, the tiles will not do anything magical:

The issue is mass, and the tiles you describe are just not
very heavy.

Most home ovens are (essentially) sheet metal boxes with a
heat source and some insulation. They have very little mass.
As a result, even if the oven is pre-heated, it cools
significantly when the cool dough is put in for the bake.
Ideally, we would like to have an oven massive enough that
its temperature hardly drops when the dough goes in. That is
the reason that breads made in huge massive ovens usually
have better crust and color than can be done with the
standard home gear.

For years, I had in the bottom of my oven (and it was a
Garland commercial beast that was quite a bit heavier than
what one ordinarily finds in a home) a very thick (about 2")
slab of stone that I got from a local brickyard. The thing
weighed 80 pounds or so. It took well over an hour to bring
it to baking temperature, but once heated, it took a long
while to cool. Said another way, it "stored" lots of heat
energy and it liberated that energy to the bread when the
bake started. It worked extremely well.

When we built our new home about four years ago, we put in a
Bongard deck oven. It weighs on the order of 1400 pounds
and, as a result, doesn't seem to "notice" when I put in
four 2 pound boules.

If you feel that the structure of you oven can take it, you
might consider something heavier than the tiles (or, by the
way, more tiles simply stacked.)

One final thought:

If they come from a supplier that offers them expressly for
baking, they will cost many times the amount one would have
to pay were they offered by a construction oriented stone
supplier.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ellen
 
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"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:r5zPd.58725$jn.50647@lakeread06...
> I know, I am being a pest.
>
> I just picked up some unglazed quarry tiles at Lowes. 8"x8"x1/2"....Does
> anybody have any experience using them or a link that may be helpful? I am
> wondering things like do I need a space for air circulation between the
> walls, do I bake directly on them or use parchment, do they need to be
> seasoned, can I leave them in place all the time, ....
>

You can bake directly on them or put the bread on parchment and then put it
on the tiles. I do one or the other depending on the bread. Doesn't seem to
make any difference in the end result. You can remove the paper half way
thru the bake or not.

I butt them together and then leave about an inch or so around the outside
edges for circulation.

They don't need to be seasoned and when you self-clean the oven just leave
them in. As to leaving them in the oven all the time, that's OK also. I take
mine out sometimes and leave them in sometimes when I am not baking bread
but not for any reasons having to do with them interfering with baking
anything else.

Ellen


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Samartha Deva
 
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HUTCHNDI wrote:
> I know, I am being a pest.


pffft - pest spray, you are clean now ;-)
no problem.
>
> I just picked up some unglazed quarry tiles at Lowes. 8"x8"x1/2"....Does
> anybody have any experience using them or a link that may be helpful? I am
> wondering things like do I need a space for air circulation between the
> walls,


That was an issue for me. My heater elements are at the bottom and I
leave maybe > 1" on sides and 2 1/2" front and back. I had tiles cut to
that size and use two layers (now broken into many fragments).

If I would not leave space between the tiles and the wall, the upper
part of the oven, where the bread bakes would not get enough heat. I did
this once - covering the whole oven with tiles and it did not turn out well.

Also - contrary opinion to Kenneth, I don't use parchment. My thinking
is that a bakery which bakes hundreds of loafs in one run using
parchment on stones - can't imagine that. Maybe for cookies but for
bread on stone tiles...??

You can look there, where it shows pictures of the tiles and my
improvised loaf shooter:

http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE/03-07-12/

The board of the loaf shooter has the same size as my tiles, so I can
place the loafs as they should end up on the tile and shoot them in.

What I do to prevent sticking is just to put a lot of flour on the
transport cloth and the bottom of the loafs (when they are in the
baskets). This works fine except with moist 100 % rye which is too sticky.

I only got cotton cloth at the time - no flax available, but it works.
In the meantime, there is a layer of flour accumulated on the cloth;
doing it's job.

> do I bake directly on them or use parchment, do they need to be
> seasoned, can I leave them in place all the time, ....


I don't get the seasoning question. Doesn't that depend on your recipe?
Spiced breads - onions, olives, seeds of various kinds are great but
that's dependent on recipe.

If you mean putting gloss on a loaf - there are several methods - I use
boiled corn starch and brush it on about 15 minutes before baking end.


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
HUTCHNDI
 
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Samartha wrote:
> I don't get the seasoning question. Doesn't that depend on your recipe?



No no, I had read something about seasoning buy heating incrementaly, a bit
at a time, to get the tiles used to the heat or something or else they would
crack upon reaching 500 degrees. Isnt the process that makes these tiles
hotter than that? Is this something I should consider?

> Hutchndi





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Samartha Deva
 
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HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Samartha wrote:
>
>>I don't get the seasoning question. Doesn't that depend on your recipe?

>
>
>
> No no, I had read something about seasoning buy heating incrementaly, a bit
> at a time, to get the tiles used to the heat or something or else they would
> crack upon reaching 500 degrees. Isnt the process that makes these tiles
> hotter than that? Is this something I should consider?


Ok, got it. But I sure don't know anything about it, nor did I do
anything in this direction. I sometimes wash the tiles and they soak up
a lot of water which makes more steam in the oven than usual.

Maybe this seasoning applies to the more expensive baking tiles ($ 30)so
they don't break. Maybe it releases steam from humidity somehow
accumulated since they were fired and to prevent the loss of ($30), this
procedure is recommended - my cheapo tiles are expected to break and my
thinking is that the expensive one's will break at one point anyway, so...

The cheapo tiles are intended to be put on floors and sure would not
need any seasoning there, so strictly seen - it's illegal use depriving
the oven tile companies of their rightful profit - right;-)

Have fun!

Samartha


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Kenneth
 
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On Sat, 12 Feb 2005 21:45:14 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Also - contrary opinion to Kenneth, I don't use parchment. My thinking
>is that a bakery which bakes hundreds of loafs in one run using
>parchment on stones - can't imagine that. Maybe for cookies but for
>bread on stone tiles...??


Yup...

I use parchment (actually Silpats) for my leaf fougasse.

These are savory flat breads that are cut to a rather
elaborate (leaf-like) shape before they rise. Once they have
risen, I have found no other way to get 'em into the oven
without the shape distorting completely.

I suspect that there is another way, but I have never found
it.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:12:07 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote:

>Samartha wrote:
>> I don't get the seasoning question. Doesn't that depend on your recipe?

>
>
>No no, I had read something about seasoning buy heating incrementaly, a bit
>at a time, to get the tiles used to the heat or something or else they would
>crack upon reaching 500 degrees. Isnt the process that makes these tiles
>hotter than that? Is this something I should consider?
>
>> Hutchndi

>


Howdy,

You have considered seasoning them, now reject that idea
<g>.

Of course you are correct. They were made at temperatures
far higher than anything you might expose them to.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ernie
 
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Samartha,
Your bread shooter is cleaver, do you let wet bread rise on the shooter?
Parchment isn't practical for a bakery, but is a necessity for me, since I
only have the use of one hand, so need something for the bread to rise on.
Ernie.

"Samartha Deva" wrote in message
> Also - contrary opinion to Kenneth, I don't use parchment. My thinking is
> that a bakery which bakes hundreds of loafs in one run using parchment on
> stones - can't imagine that. Maybe for cookies but for bread on stone
> tiles...??
>
> You can look there, where it shows pictures of the tiles and my improvised
> loaf shooter:
>



  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
Samartha Deva
 
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Ernie wrote:
> Samartha,
> Your bread shooter is cleaver, do you let wet bread rise on the shooter?


No - that would open the possibility of the loafs getting stuck on the
cloth and then... chaos with arms half in the hot oven trying to rescue
what's possible. They go on the shooter right before they go in the oven
to avoid this. I rise them in my "aquariums" in those plastic baskets.

> Parchment isn't practical for a bakery, but is a necessity for me, since I
> only have the use of one hand, so need something for the bread to rise on.
> Ernie.
>
> "Samartha Deva" wrote in message
>
>>Also - contrary opinion to Kenneth, I don't use parchment. My thinking is
>>that a bakery which bakes hundreds of loafs in one run using parchment on
>>stones - can't imagine that. Maybe for cookies but for bread on stone
>>tiles...??
>>
>>You can look there, where it shows pictures of the tiles and my improvised
>>loaf shooter:
>>

>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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Kenneth wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 01:12:07 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> > wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> You have considered seasoning them, now reject that idea
> <g>.
>
> Of course you are correct. They were made at temperatures
> far higher than anything you might expose them to.
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth



Sometimes seasoning is called for. Usually this falls into two cases:

1) The stone or tiles are refractory cement or a refractory cement and
clay mixture.

These tend to outgas residual filler from the construction process. The
filler is added to engineer pore space so the stone has the appropriate
thermo-elastic properties...ie: can expand and contract without
cracking. Sometimes the fluxing agents outgass as well. These are the
materials, typically feldspars for low temperature bonding (called
sintering by ceramicists). Really high temp stuff, 2200 F or more,
achieves a glassine state and is, as you might expect, brittle. Quarry
stone is not high temp stuff but is often enginnered for a bit of
porousity. You can usually smell these agents.


2) The stone's post firing tension needs to be released.

Often low temperature ceramic ware needs to be refired, "cured", to
release the initial firing stress. This means the specific angles of
molecular alignment achieved at high manufacturing temperature might
not be appropriate for lower temperature use. You have seen many things
warp in ovens, flat steel sheet pans (a special case) and you have
probably seen new pizza stones develop hairline cracks or warp during
early stages of use.


Will

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Mike Avery
 
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Kenneth wrote:

>All that said, the tiles will not do anything magical:
>
>The issue is mass, and the tiles you describe are just not
>very heavy.
>
>
>

Cooks Illustrated was curious how much good a hearthkit would do. And
they were about to really pan the product, because in their high-end
ovens, it made no difference.

Someone had an inspiration and sent a hearthkit home with a staffer to
see what happened in a regular oven. And... in the regular oven, they
made a lot of difference.

I am reluctant to assume that because the tiles made no difference in a
bongard, they will make no difference in a GE.

I've been using unglazed quarry tiles for years, and like them a lot.
The next step up, fibrament stones, are also very good.

Yes, the mass is less than that of a bongard, but they WILL help.
Samartha has given good advice on air flow. Make sure you let the tiles
warm up completely - let the oven heat for 30 to 45 minutes.

Also, while you can put the dough directly on the tiles, it is easier to
use parchment paper. If you put the dough in the wrong place, you can
move it if it's on parchment paper.

And despite comments to the contrary, I used a LOT of parchment paper in
my commercial bakery, and so do almost all the bakers I talk to.

Mike

  #13 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 11:06:41 -0700, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>>All that said, the tiles will not do anything magical:
>>
>>The issue is mass, and the tiles you describe are just not
>>very heavy.
>>
>>
>>

>Cooks Illustrated was curious how much good a hearthkit would do. And
>they were about to really pan the product, because in their high-end
>ovens, it made no difference.
>
>Someone had an inspiration and sent a hearthkit home with a staffer to
>see what happened in a regular oven. And... in the regular oven, they
>made a lot of difference.
>
>I am reluctant to assume that because the tiles made no difference in a
>bongard, they will make no difference in a GE.
>
>I've been using unglazed quarry tiles for years, and like them a lot.
>The next step up, fibrament stones, are also very good.
>
>Yes, the mass is less than that of a bongard, but they WILL help.
>Samartha has given good advice on air flow. Make sure you let the tiles
>warm up completely - let the oven heat for 30 to 45 minutes.
>
>Also, while you can put the dough directly on the tiles, it is easier to
>use parchment paper. If you put the dough in the wrong place, you can
>move it if it's on parchment paper.
>
>And despite comments to the contrary, I used a LOT of parchment paper in
>my commercial bakery, and so do almost all the bakers I talk to.
>
>Mike


Hi Mike,

It is not an issue of the oven, it is an issue of the
physics.

I never have used anything in the Bongard because there is
not need. 'Sorry if something I wrote confused matters.

But, if the tiles heat in a few minutes (as they do) they
will not store as much heat as something that takes many
times as long to heat.

I agree that they help, but know that there are very cheap
alternatives (such as fire bricks at about 25 cents each)
that work far better.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dick Adams
 
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In message =20
"Kenneth" said to "HUTCHNDI"

> You are not being a pest at all ...


Kenneth, you jump to conclusions. Have you considered all of the
evidence?

> [ ... ]


> All that said, the tiles will not do anything magical: The issue is=20
> mass, and the tiles you describe are just not very heavy.


That goes for all tiles. Bricks and kiln shelves may be better.
=20
> ... breads made in huge massive ovens usually have better=20
> crust and color than can be done with the standard home gear.


Well, if they don't always, I guess there's still some hope for us
kitchen-range-oven, amateur bakers.
=20
> When we built our new home about four years ago, we put in a
> Bongard deck oven. It weighs on the order of 1400 pounds
> and, as a result, doesn't seem to "notice" when I put in
> four 2 pound boules.


Kenneth, why don't you post some photos in web space
somewhere so we can see what we are missing by not having
1400-LB ovens?

> If you feel that the structure of you oven can take it, you
> might consider something heavier than the tiles (or, by the
> way, more tiles simply stacked.)


I don't see why rocks could not be used. One poster suggested
that, years back.

--
DickA

P.S. I make pretty good loaves without any tiles, slabs, rocks,
Bongards, or "steam" either, for that matter. But that's just my
opinion, I should admit. Also without fancy baskets and
french-named implements ...



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Will
 
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On 2/13/05 12:26 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> P.S. I make pretty good loaves without any tiles, slabs, rocks,
> Bongards, or "steam" either, for that matter. But that's just my
> opinion, I should admit. Also without fancy baskets and
> french-named implements ...


If I had to score the components for bread success. It would look like this:

Good fermentation technique: 80%
Good flour : 10%
Good oven : 10%
Camera : 0%
Baskets, bread pans, : 0%
anything from Williams-Sonoma,
The Baker's Catalog, anything French, etc...

Will

  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Mike Pearce
 
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"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.25.1108321699.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...

> If I had to score the components for bread success. It would look like
> this:
>
> Good fermentation technique: 80%
> Good flour : 10%
> Good oven : 10%


<snip>

> Will


Interesting. I've thought about this myself. I haven't gotten as far as
assigning percentages to components, but I do know that I would add
shaping/handling of the dough to the list. I think that of my failures more
have been due to poor shaping of the loaves than to anything else.

On flour... For bread flour I've used KA Special pretty much since I started
baking bread. I've recently found a source, a local food co-op / buying
club, for Wheat Montana flour and will be getting a 50 lb bag month when
they do their monthly order. I'm curious to see what, if anything , I notice
with the change of flour.

-Mike


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
Steve B
 
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"Will" > wrote in message
news:mailman.25.1108321699.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> If I had to score the components for bread success. It would look like
> this:
>
> Good fermentation technique: 80%
> Good flour : 10%
> Good oven : 10%
> Camera : 0%
> Baskets, bread pans, : 0%
> anything from Williams-Sonoma,
> The Baker's Catalog, anything French, etc...
>
> Will


While I would argue that proper dough mixing is perhaps one of the most
important aspects of successful breadmaking, Dick A might argue for the
camera.

- Steve Brandt.


  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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Steve B wrote:
> "Will" > wrote in message
>

news:mailman.25.1108321699.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> > If I had to score the components for bread success. It would look

like
> > this:
> >
> > Good fermentation technique: 80%
> > Good flour : 10%
> > Good oven : 10%
> > Camera : 0%
> > Baskets, bread pans, : 0%
> > anything from Williams-Sonoma,
> > The Baker's Catalog, anything French, etc...
> >
> > Will

>
> While I would argue that proper dough mixing is perhaps one of the

most
> important aspects of successful breadmaking, Dick A might argue for

the
> camera.
>
> - Steve Brandt.


Dick might indeed. If so, I am sure it would be a modest camera in
keeping with his "minimalist" philosophy.

If I was gearing up, however neither camera or commercial oven would be
at the top of the list. These days I want a small lab water bath and a
hot/cold retarding box. Kenneth described a good hot/cold box via a
simple refrigerator conversion. And I am really intrigued by what
Samartha's posted on Detmold. I'm not anxious to get into aquarium
heaters so a simple used lab bath might be the ticket. I think firmer
control over fermentation temperature and time is the next step for me.
I like the idea of dialing in degrees of flavor by explicitly
manipulating the yeast/bacteria populations.

As far as ovens goes... I'm in luck. One of my neighbors is getting a
good sized Kamado cooker. It's a commercial adaptation of the old
Korean and Japanese ceramic "egg" shaped stoves. This thing is castable
refractory firebrick and goes from 150 to 700 F. Could be the cheapest
(and easiest) shortcut to a real brick baking oven if baffled right.
I'll know soon whether it has bread oven potential. I'll post pictures
too...

Will

  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
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Will wrote:
>
> ...If I was gearing up, however neither camera or commercial oven would be
> at the top of the list. These days I want a small lab water bath and a
> hot/cold retarding box...
>


Now, I don't want to denigrate anyones lust for toys, In fact I
share some curiosity about the effects of temperature on the
bread process, but temperature controlled water baths are
certainly not necessary. Unless, of course, you wish to enter
the kingdom of the Rye Purist and worship at the altar of
Detmold.

A nice mixing bowl and a sturdy spoon are all that is necessary
for ordinary sourdough bread. OK, I am aware that you can mix
the dough by bare hand directly on the counter or bread board,
but the use of a bowl and spoon won't get me into the extravagant
class in todays environment.

> ... One of my neighbors is getting a
> good sized Kamado cooker. It's a commercial adaptation of the old
> Korean and Japanese ceramic "egg" shaped stoves.


Do these work outside or are they inside the house ovens? I
really need a brick oven, but I don't have room. So far I have
been unable to find a volunteer to host site a neighborhood oven.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
HUTCHNDI
 
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I just wanted to ask anyone giving the advice that the tiles would not make
that much of a difference, how long has it been since you baked on a cookie
sheet? Thats what I had been doing until now.

My first loaves just came out of the oven, and the difference from my
earlier breads can best be described as the difference between frisbees and
footballs. And these contained (a 1 cup total mix) whole wheat, flax, and
spelt to boot. I have never made a loaf that had risen like these before,
so I am putting my 2 cents forward as saying yes, they work.

Granted, I also made some major changes in my recipe after watching that
artisan bread dvd, mostly concerning less flour (alot, at least a cup and a
half less in my 2 loaf recipe), kneading and stretch and fold technique.

The only possible drawback, if this is one, is that now the loaves come out
a bit blackened on the bottom, but I can certainly live with that concerning
the benifits I am getting.

Hutchndi


  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
Will
 
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On 2/14/05 11:34 AM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

> Will wrote:
>>
>> ...If I was gearing up, however neither camera or commercial oven would be
>> at the top of the list. These days I want a small lab water bath and a
>> hot/cold retarding box...
>>

>
> Now, I don't want to denigrate anyone's lust for toys, In fact I
> share some curiosity about the effects of temperature on the
> bread process, but temperature controlled water baths are
> certainly not necessary. Unless, of course, you wish to enter
> the kingdom of the Rye Purist and worship at the altar of
> Detmold.


I think I am building up to a case of Religion :-).
It started innocently when I began cooking 100% rye pumpernickel in a 16
hour water bath @250 F. I used a cheap GE counter top roaster found at
Wal-Mart for $29.00. Temp range from 90 to 450 F.

The results were quite inspiring.

> A nice mixing bowl and a sturdy spoon are all that is necessary
> for ordinary sourdough bread. OK, I am aware that you can mix
> the dough by bare hand directly on the counter or bread board,
> but the use of a bowl and spoon won't get me into the extravagant
> class in today's environment.


I admit to favoring my KitchenAid. At my age, hands are for either the truly
devout or truly impoverished.

>
>> ... One of my neighbors is getting a
>> good sized Kamado cooker. It's a commercial adaptation of the old
>> Korean and Japanese ceramic "egg" shaped stoves.

>
> Do these work outside or are they inside the house ovens? I
> really need a brick oven, but I don't have room. So far I have
> been unable to find a volunteer to host site a neighborhood oven.


I've only seen the outside use. You can buy them with LP or natural gas
burners in addition to the wood and charcoal modes. What intrigues me is the
100% castable interior. Once you get them heated, I think you have the
analog of a fine brick oven. Hot, radiant, moisture retentive...etc. When my
neighbor gets his set up, I need to bake a few loaves to get a sense of it.

Will




  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 13:58:25 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote:

>I just wanted to ask anyone giving the advice that the tiles would not make
>that much of a difference, how long has it been since you baked on a cookie
>sheet? Thats what I had been doing until now.
>
>My first loaves just came out of the oven, and the difference from my
>earlier breads can best be described as the difference between frisbees and
>footballs. And these contained (a 1 cup total mix) whole wheat, flax, and
>spelt to boot. I have never made a loaf that had risen like these before,
>so I am putting my 2 cents forward as saying yes, they work.
>
> Granted, I also made some major changes in my recipe after watching that
>artisan bread dvd, mostly concerning less flour (alot, at least a cup and a
>half less in my 2 loaf recipe), kneading and stretch and fold technique.
>
>The only possible drawback, if this is one, is that now the loaves come out
>a bit blackened on the bottom, but I can certainly live with that concerning
>the benifits I am getting.
>
>Hutchndi
>


Howdy,

The "difference between frisbees and footballs" is not
likely to be caused by the tiles...

As you say, you made other "major changes" and it is far
more likely that those account for the differences you
observe.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

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  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ernie
 
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"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:fz6Qd.63426$jn.38439@lakeread06...
>I just wanted to ask anyone giving the advice that the tiles would not make
> that much of a difference, how long has it been since you baked on a
> cookie
> sheet? Thats what I had been doing until now.


I have been using a round pizza stone I bought on Ebay for $20 several years
ago. Despite dire warnings from this group it has not broken and it does a
great job. I just slide it in the drawer below the oven when I am through
with it. It has a little rack so I can set it on the table after I bake a
pizza to keep it nice and hot.
Ernie


  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Konny K
 
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Kenneth wrote:
> The issue is mass,


I have issues with that statement. Seems to me, the point is rather
heat conductivity (and maybe heat radiation wavelength?), so in other
words: The material you bake in is so very important as to how the
dough will absorb the heat that comes from the material that gives off
the heat.

To my knowledge, this is also the "issue" with running over hot coals,
which can be done by anyone (has nothing to do with your mind-set,
which seems to be the message at certain events where you run over
coals in "trance"). The heat is transmitted not as fast as with metal.
You would burn your feet when running over metal the same temperature
as glowing coals.


Regards,
Konny



  #26 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On 14 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0800, "Konny K"
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> The issue is mass,

>
>I have issues with that statement. Seems to me, the point is rather
>heat conductivity (and maybe heat radiation wavelength?), so in other
>words: The material you bake in is so very important as to how the
>dough will absorb the heat that comes from the material that gives off
>the heat.


Hi again,

Try this (even as a thought experiment...)

On your range, heat two fry pans to, say, 650F.

One is made of aluminum foil. The other of cast iron.

Toss a steak into each.

As you probably know, the steak in the cast iron pan will
start to sizzle and smoke. The other will do virtually
nothing. Yet both pans were at the same temperature.

That is because the foil pan liberates all its heat to the
steak in a moment while the cast iron pan has (because of
its much greater mass) stored vastly more heat, which it
then liberates to the steak.

Same for bread ovens...

The heated mass has very significant effects in all forms of
cooking.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

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  #27 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:04:41 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Despite dire warnings from this group it has not broken and it does a
>great job.


Hi Ernie,

I am not sure who might have offered dire warnings of
breakage, but I am curious:

When you say that it does a "great job", what are you
comparing it to?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

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  #28 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 16:38:24 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On 14 Feb 2005 13:13:51 -0800, "Konny K"
> wrote:
>
>>Kenneth wrote:
>>> The issue is mass,

>>
>>I have issues with that statement. Seems to me, the point is rather
>>heat conductivity (and maybe heat radiation wavelength?), so in other
>>words: The material you bake in is so very important as to how the
>>dough will absorb the heat that comes from the material that gives off
>>the heat.

>
>Hi again,
>
>Try this (even as a thought experiment...)
>
>On your range, heat two fry pans to, say, 650F.
>
>One is made of aluminum foil. The other of cast iron.
>
>Toss a steak into each.
>
>As you probably know, the steak in the cast iron pan will
>start to sizzle and smoke. The other will do virtually
>nothing. Yet both pans were at the same temperature.
>
>That is because the foil pan liberates all its heat to the
>steak in a moment while the cast iron pan has (because of
>its much greater mass) stored vastly more heat, which it
>then liberates to the steak.
>
>Same for bread ovens...
>
>The heated mass has very significant effects in all forms of
>cooking.
>
>All the best,


Ooops... I should have mentioned that the aluminum pan
conducts heat far better than does the cast iron.

'Sorry,

--
Kenneth

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  #29 (permalink)   Report Post  
Konny K
 
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Kenneth wrote:
> The heated mass has very significant effects in all forms of
> cooking.
>


I don't doubt it, but your point is not precise, in fact very vague. To
be honest, I don't see how your "experiment" would enforce your point
at all, you only gave an example of two different masses and claimed
it's the mass that produces the different outcomes and didn't even
bother to take into account the different materials. I made a remark
suspecting it's not only the mass, but rather a property related to
density (mass / volume) and heat conductivity (changes with the
material).

What would happen if you doubled the mass of your cast iron? Let's say
we have a huge block of iron and keep increasing the size of it (the
mass)? Speculation: To some point it will make a difference but after a
while it will not change the outcome a great deal. So it cannot be the
mass as a single governing factor. But if we baked it on the same mass
of a different material, same temperature, it would make a difference.

Why do we rave about wood fired ovens (apart from the "woody aroma"),
why not just use a modified home oven with the same mass? Why does it
make a difference to bake in different ovens made from different
materials (but maybe equal masses). Feel free to report back with your
findings.

Regards,
Konny

  #30 (permalink)   Report Post  
Konny K
 
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Kenneth wrote:
> Ooops... I should have mentioned that the aluminum pan
> conducts heat far better than does the cast iron.
>

There you go. If aluminium has a higher thermal conducitivy than iron,
it will burn the steak faster than the iron, if kept at the same
temperature. But that proves my point.

Regards,
Konny



  #31 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ernie
 
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"Kenneth" wrote>
> I am not sure who might have offered dire warnings of
> breakage, but I am curious:
> When you say that it does a "great job", what are you
> comparing it to?
> Thanks,
> Kenneth


Kenneth,
I am comparing it to a cookie sheet, because the pizza stone and cookie
sheets are the only thing I have experience with.
However it does a great job baking my sourdough bread. Fire bricks might
hold more heat, but I don't think any additional benefit would be worth the
bother of the removing the bricks. My wife would frown on having them in
the oven all the time, and they would also use more electricity for normal
oven use. It would be useless to show pictures, because my sourdough bread
looks just like any other nice round sourdough loaf, lofty and full of
holes.
Ernie


  #32 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On 14 Feb 2005 14:34:29 -0800, "Konny K"
> wrote:

>
>Kenneth wrote:
>> Ooops... I should have mentioned that the aluminum pan
>> conducts heat far better than does the cast iron.
>>

>There you go. If aluminium has a higher thermal conducitivy than iron,
>it will burn the steak faster than the iron, if kept at the same
>temperature. But that proves my point.
>
>Regards,
>Konny


Hi Konny,

I guess my suggestion that you try it at a thought
experiment was not the best approach.

You will just have to try it if you would like to know for
sure.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

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  #33 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kenneth
 
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 22:37:27 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Kenneth,
> I am comparing it to a cookie sheet, because the pizza stone and cookie
>sheets are the only thing I have experience with.
>However it does a great job baking my sourdough bread. Fire bricks might
>hold more heat, but I don't think any additional benefit would be worth the
>bother of the removing the bricks. My wife would frown on having them in
>the oven all the time, and they would also use more electricity for normal
>oven use. It would be useless to show pictures, because my sourdough bread
>looks just like any other nice round sourdough loaf, lofty and full of
>holes.
>Ernie


Hi Ernie,

I am not at all surprised that the baking stone you have
works better than a cookie sheet.

Of course the important thing is that you are happy with the
results!

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
  #34 (permalink)   Report Post  
Konny K
 
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Kenneth wrote:
>
> I guess my suggestion that you try it at a thought
> experiment was not the best approach.
>


Hear, hear.

Regards,
Konny

  #35 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
snip
>> ... One of my neighbors is getting a
>> good sized Kamado cooker. It's a commercial adaptation of the old
>> Korean and Japanese ceramic "egg" shaped stoves.

>
> Do these work outside or are they inside the house ovens? I
> really need a brick oven, but I don't have room. So far I have
> been unable to find a volunteer to host site a neighborhood oven.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles

The Kamado is an outside cooker. Solid concrete and tile, I believe. Louis
Cohen bakes in his. I've seen posted pictures from him of Challah and
pizza. I think he was posting links to the baking pictures through
alt.bread.recipes--maybe about 2-3 years ago.
Janet




  #36 (permalink)   Report Post  
Matt
 
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Simple physics/ chemistry formula: mass*specific heat*change in
temperature = change in energy. Thus, a material like ceramic pizza
stones with a high mass, and a high specific heat will store up (and
thus release) more heat energy with the same change in temperature than
would just an unmassive, low specific heat item like the casing of your
oven. So like said above, both the mass, and the specific heat are
important in the amount of heat released. Specific heat esentially the
amount of energy required to change a certain amount of material a
certain amount in temperature.

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