Here's how I make my bread:

a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this dough...
c) go on as usual on bread making.

The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?

IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
these other ones without inhibiting their action.

But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.

P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.

Canoe

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:24:37 GMT, wrote:

>Here's how I make my bread:
>
>a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
>b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this dough...
>c) go on as usual on bread making.
>
>The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
>inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
>In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?
>
>IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
>in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
>these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
>But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.
>
>P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
>I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
>bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
>Canoe

Howdy,

It is not clear what you are really asking.

Of course, you can call your bread anything you wish.

I will add that you seem to claim the speed of your approach
(not as unorthodox as you seem to believe by the way) as a
virtue. As is true with many other foods, the slower the
fermentation, the better the result in terms of taste, and
texture.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 16 Jan 2005 14:24:37 GMT, wrote:

>Here's how I make my bread:
>
>a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
>b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this dough...
>c) go on as usual on bread making.
>
>The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
>inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
>In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?
>
>IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
>in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
>these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
>But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.
>
>P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
>I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
>bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
>Canoe

Howdy,

It is not clear what you are really asking.

Of course, you can call your bread anything you wish.

I will add that you seem to claim the speed of your approach
(not as unorthodox as you seem to believe by the way) as a
virtue. As is true with many other foods, the slower the
fermentation, the better the result in terms of taste, and
texture.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

wrote:
> Here's how I make my bread:
>
> a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
> b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this
dough...
> c) go on as usual on bread making.
>
> The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
> inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
> In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?
>
> IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
> in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
> these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
> But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.
>
> P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
> I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
> bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
> Canoe

Canoe,

Quite a few bread books discuss the technique you employ: spiking the
dough with yeast to
assure good results. In my opinion, the decision really depends on what
type of baker you wish to be.

I once had a neighbor who, after renovating a beautiful old house, had
the vinyl installers come and provide him with the modern solution for
his exterior. For months afterward, I heard how the vinyl was better.
It never needed painting, was maintenance free, guaranteed not to
fade... I think he knew that he had turned a beautiful old home into
something that really belonged elsewhere. Of course, he liked the old
trees, the sidewalks, the hedges; and he liked having a proper porch
instead of a deck.

His friends continued to paint each summer when painting time came and
no one, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with him about the vinyl.
Will

wrote:
> Here's how I make my bread:
>
> a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
> b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this
dough...
> c) go on as usual on bread making.
>
> The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
> inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
> In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?
>
> IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
> in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
> these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
> But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.
>
> P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
> I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
> bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
> Canoe

Canoe,

Quite a few bread books discuss the technique you employ: spiking the
dough with yeast to
assure good results. In my opinion, the decision really depends on what
type of baker you wish to be.

I once had a neighbor who, after renovating a beautiful old house, had
the vinyl installers come and provide him with the modern solution for
his exterior. For months afterward, I heard how the vinyl was better.
It never needed painting, was maintenance free, guaranteed not to
fade... I think he knew that he had turned a beautiful old home into
something that really belonged elsewhere. Of course, he liked the old
trees, the sidewalks, the hedges; and he liked having a proper porch
instead of a deck.

His friends continued to paint each summer when painting time came and
no one, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with him about the vinyl.
Will

Will wrote:

> His friends continued to paint each summer when painting time came and
> no one, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with him about the vinyl.

But behind his back...

B/

Will wrote:

> His friends continued to paint each summer when painting time came and
> no one, to my knowledge, ever disagreed with him about the vinyl.

But behind his back...

B/

> wrote in message=20
...

> ... I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
> I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
> bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.

Why don't you present a photo of your bread. That way we could
understand how well-raised your bread is, even if we still have to=20
take your word about "this much desired sourdough taste".

> But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.

I think that bakers' yeast is not needed. See my bread he
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...ad02JAN04.html
No bakers' yeast is used. Here are some boules from the same
dough recipe:
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

>
>Here's how I make my bread:
>
>a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
>b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this dough...
>c) go on as usual on bread making.

I often use SD/commercial yeast combinations, although I normally give the
sourdough element an overnight fermentation, usually in Poolish form.

>
>The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
>inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
>In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?

What's in a name, I call them hybrids, a lot of commercial "Sourdough" breads
are partially raised with commercial yeast.

>
>IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
>in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
>these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
>But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.

I agree, sourdough is one of many ways of raising bread, all have their place.

>
>P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
>I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
>bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
>Canoe
>

The "much desired sourdough taste" can, for my taste, be too strong in 100%
sourdough raised bread but chacun a son gout.

I used to use commercial yeast to take the uncertainty out of the raising but
methods of multiple stage builds which I have learned whilst in this group,
mostly from Dick Adams, have almost eliminated that uncertainty.

I still make hybrid breads because I like the taste and because I often have to
make bread ad hoc and I want a fast rise so 3-4 hours sourdough fermentation
and a quick commercial yeast boost gives a good compromise in the
taste/time/effort equation.

John

>
>Here's how I make my bread:
>
>a) mix some of my own sourdough to water and flour...
>b) add some beforehand activated commercial dry yeast to this dough...
>c) go on as usual on bread making.

I often use SD/commercial yeast combinations, although I normally give the
sourdough element an overnight fermentation, usually in Poolish form.

>
>The question remains: does the addition of the commercial yeast
>inhibits the properties of the sourdough bread?
>In other words: can it still be called a sourdough bread?

What's in a name, I call them hybrids, a lot of commercial "Sourdough" breads
are partially raised with commercial yeast.

>
>IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
>in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
>these other ones without inhibiting their action.
>
>But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.

I agree, sourdough is one of many ways of raising bread, all have their place.

>
>P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
>I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
>bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.
>
>Canoe
>

The "much desired sourdough taste" can, for my taste, be too strong in 100%
sourdough raised bread but chacun a son gout.

I used to use commercial yeast to take the uncertainty out of the raising but
methods of multiple stage builds which I have learned whilst in this group,
mostly from Dick Adams, have almost eliminated that uncertainty.

I still make hybrid breads because I like the taste and because I often have to
make bread ad hoc and I want a fast rise so 3-4 hours sourdough fermentation
and a quick commercial yeast boost gives a good compromise in the
taste/time/effort equation.

John

At 07:24 AM 1/16/2005, Canoe wrote:
>...
>IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
>in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
>these other ones without inhibiting their action.

Well, here you can see a nice spin:

http://www.breadworld.com/sciencehistory/science.asp

In the beginning, there was... "yeast" - even in Egypt.

Looks to me the yeast you can buy is selectively bred for maybe a century
to produce mainly one thing: reliable rise.

The yeast species used is brewer's yeast saccharomyces cerevisiae and they
don't appear in natural sourdoughs apparently because they can't take the
acetic acid (vinegar) whereas the sourdough specific yeasts can.

So, your statement: "just like the many others present in the environment"
won't apply since the baker's yeast is selectively bred and the yeasts
occurring in sourdoughs are also not "like many others" because they are
able to live in this environment in symbiosis with LB's - also a selection.

Now, here on this forum if somebody comes up with yeast as an addition to
assure rise and save time (as opposed to work with a poolish), I'd say it's
used to cover up a lack of skill and join the supermarket bread producers.

>But that's just my opinion and I'd gladly appreciate yours.
>
>P.S. yes, I know my method isn't very orthodox, but it will assure
>I'll obtain a well-raised bread, beside being a faster task. And my
>bread does give this much desired sourdough taste.

But you won't have the benefit of an extended fermentation you would when
getting the rise without yeast. As for not orthodox - depends from which
angle. Very orthodox with flummy bread bakers.

Samartha


===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1105930450.32205.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Now, here on this forum if somebody comes up with yeast as an addition to
> assure rise and save time (as opposed to work with a poolish), I'd say
> it's used to cover up a lack of skill and join the supermarket bread
> producers.

Now, now, Samartha. Even Calvel uses a small amount of commercial yeast
when making pain au levain (sourdough here in the States) to promote a more
consistent and predictable rise time. I doubt anyone would suggest that he
does this to cover up his lack of skill. Not that I am comparing the skills
of the people on this forum (myself included) with Calvel's...

- Steve Brandt

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1105930450.32205.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Now, here on this forum if somebody comes up with yeast as an addition to
> assure rise and save time (as opposed to work with a poolish), I'd say
> it's used to cover up a lack of skill and join the supermarket bread
> producers.

Now, now, Samartha. Even Calvel uses a small amount of commercial yeast
when making pain au levain (sourdough here in the States) to promote a more
consistent and predictable rise time. I doubt anyone would suggest that he
does this to cover up his lack of skill. Not that I am comparing the skills
of the people on this forum (myself included) with Calvel's...

- Steve Brandt

I agree with that Steve, that is a fact in the baking industry and I
have no doubt about the capability and skill of the bakers either ,
Most of them have used sourdough for more than 20 years abut they
are still open to occasional use of bakers yeast if they want it(
combined with starter in the final dough) .
It is usually a matter of personal preferrence for the baker. But you
cannot convince some hobbyist to do the same: if they have an
aversion for bakers yeast in the same way that vegans have aversion to
consuming and using products derived from animals.

Reputable baking and cooking schools such as for example the Culinary
institute of America even advocate the addition of bakers yeast in
sourdough in many of their supposedly naturally leavened bread
recipes;That is true also with European bread baking schools.
Take note , the German baking industry who is the leading proponent of
using sourdough still use commercial yeast ( usually) n the dough side

I have seen French,Spanish and Scandinavian sourdough bread recipes
that is supposed to be leavened using pure levain cultuer / natural
starter. but they still normally spike the mix with baker yeast

Roy

I agree with that Steve, that is a fact in the baking industry and I
have no doubt about the capability and skill of the bakers either ,
Most of them have used sourdough for more than 20 years abut they
are still open to occasional use of bakers yeast if they want it(
combined with starter in the final dough) .
It is usually a matter of personal preferrence for the baker. But you
cannot convince some hobbyist to do the same: if they have an
aversion for bakers yeast in the same way that vegans have aversion to
consuming and using products derived from animals.

Reputable baking and cooking schools such as for example the Culinary
institute of America even advocate the addition of bakers yeast in
sourdough in many of their supposedly naturally leavened bread
recipes;That is true also with European bread baking schools.
Take note , the German baking industry who is the leading proponent of
using sourdough still use commercial yeast ( usually) n the dough side

I have seen French,Spanish and Scandinavian sourdough bread recipes
that is supposed to be leavened using pure levain cultuer / natural
starter. but they still normally spike the mix with baker yeast

Roy

Roy wrote:

<snip>
>
> I have seen French,Spanish and Scandinavian sourdough bread recipes
> that is supposed to be leavened using pure levain cultuer / natural
> starter. but they still normally spike the mix with baker yeast
>
> Roy

Yes but dig the Egyptians also spike their recipes with baker yeast? The
reason for this group is to learn how to use naturallyÂ*leavenedÂ*to bake
bread.

Enjoy reading this group and have learn from this group.

Joe Umstead

Roy wrote:

<snip>
>
> I have seen French,Spanish and Scandinavian sourdough bread recipes
> that is supposed to be leavened using pure levain cultuer / natural
> starter. but they still normally spike the mix with baker yeast
>
> Roy

Yes but dig the Egyptians also spike their recipes with baker yeast? The
reason for this group is to learn how to use naturallyÂ*leavenedÂ*to bake
bread.

Enjoy reading this group and have learn from this group.

Joe Umstead

Joe Umstead wrote:

>
> Yes but dig the Egyptians also spike their recipes with baker yeast?
The
> reason for this group is to learn how to use naturally leavened to
bake
> bread.
>
> Enjoy reading this group and have learn from this group.
>
> Joe Umstead

LOL!
Do you mean so say that ( when you travel)you do not want to ride an
airplane as it did not exist in ancient times, in the same line that
you do not want to use the commercial bakers yeast( on modified
sourdough) as it did not exist in the past?
You have much to learn kid....keep on reading anyway.
Roy

At 09:08 PM 1/17/2005, Roy wrote:

>You have much to learn kid....keep on reading anyway.

Ghee, how sweet, daddy bighead shows his face again... got his ego dented
and can't take it :-)

In this matter (to stay on topic), somebody wrote me recently:

>Looking at the last photos of carl 1, I can see why french bread is made
>in long slender logs. The result is big holes near the ende, and since
>the logs are skinny, there are big holes all over. This allows maximum
>bread for minimum dough. The french bakeries know how to get the most
>from their doughs.

Rings true - yeast has it's reasons from this aspect as well.

From the German side - somebody sent me a recent article in the GE Stern
magazine)):

German bakers know how to push buttons, use premix and frozen pre-baked's
but to make bread from scratch, they have to learn again. Can't compete
against industrial bakeries. Survival strategy is natural sourdough artisan
bread.

1994: 25,000 bakeries
2004: 17,000

in Hamburg: 1993: 129 guild bakeries, today 52

One shining example: Munich's Hofpfisterei - they got the sourdough down
and make profit with good prices and quality.

Some large industrialized production bakeries make decent bread - with
sourdough.

As for the yeast use - Roy Basan insisted it's impossible to manage
sourdough commercially; he never got it together (or the bakers under him)
reliably without.

There is a long and laughable thread on this forum.

I am sure some more will follow :-))



Samartha




===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 09:08 PM 1/17/2005, Roy wrote:

>You have much to learn kid....keep on reading anyway.

Ghee, how sweet, daddy bighead shows his face again... got his ego dented
and can't take it :-)

In this matter (to stay on topic), somebody wrote me recently:

>Looking at the last photos of carl 1, I can see why french bread is made
>in long slender logs. The result is big holes near the ende, and since
>the logs are skinny, there are big holes all over. This allows maximum
>bread for minimum dough. The french bakeries know how to get the most
>from their doughs.

Rings true - yeast has it's reasons from this aspect as well.

From the German side - somebody sent me a recent article in the GE Stern
magazine)):

German bakers know how to push buttons, use premix and frozen pre-baked's
but to make bread from scratch, they have to learn again. Can't compete
against industrial bakeries. Survival strategy is natural sourdough artisan
bread.

1994: 25,000 bakeries
2004: 17,000

in Hamburg: 1993: 129 guild bakeries, today 52

One shining example: Munich's Hofpfisterei - they got the sourdough down
and make profit with good prices and quality.

Some large industrialized production bakeries make decent bread - with
sourdough.

As for the yeast use - Roy Basan insisted it's impossible to manage
sourdough commercially; he never got it together (or the bakers under him)
reliably without.

There is a long and laughable thread on this forum.

I am sure some more will follow :-))



Samartha




===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Thanks a lot Dick for your "gentle" answer.
I am running to these sites that will encourage me to use sourdough
only.
A couple of replies to my request show me I could have been more
accurate by saying I do not skip the first steps of a sourdough bread
taking all the time it needs for fermentation, adding commercial yeast
just before I will go on the last kneading.
That's why my bread doesn't lack that sourdough taste wich I can
distinguish easily since I've not bought a loaf of bread for 30 years,
and been fed with my mother's homemade bread before going on my own.

The problem I get with rising using only sourdough (I've tried that a
few times of course) might come from an excess of acidity of my
sourdough, as I have recently read somewhere here on the Web. The
thing is that I thought the more acid is the sourdough, the best
results.

I'll try again.

Canoe

LOL!
!What a pity<g>
You also have much to learn samartha .
.. Some .Artisanal bkeries who especialize in 100 % natural sourdough
is just one small part of the bigger picture in sourdough baking.
You may not like it but that;s the way it is.
Open up your eyes ( really wide)on what is really happening out there.
Stop reading( your personally <g>) censored artciles on sourdough
baking!
Get up from your chari( and out of your imaginary world),and see
the sourdough breadbaking in real time!
Try to visit as many sourdough bakeies as you can and see for yourself
the truth. Carefully observe their methods Talk to the bakers making
the dough. etc.
Even if you select to visit only the ones using natural starters and
avoid the ones using premixes and sourdough additives. you will see
for yourself THE REALITY. that the combination methods is much more
popular and prevalent .than the strictly traditional way you prefer.
Roy

"Roy" wrote in message
oups.com...

<Snip>

> Try to visit as many sourdough bakeies as you can and see for yourself
> the truth. Carefully observe their methods Talk to the bakers making
> the dough. etc.
> Even if you select to visit only the ones using natural starters and
> avoid the ones using premixes and sourdough additives. you will see
> for yourself THE REALITY. that the combination methods is much more
> popular and prevalent .than the strictly traditional way you prefer.

I don't doubt that combinations are more popular. Neither do I doubt that
McDonald's restaurants are more popular than most other restaurants.
Popularity often has little to do with quality or tradition.

This group is devoted to sourdough bread so combination methods and doughs
using commercial yeast are really not relevant, whether you choose to refer
to them as sourdough or not.

-Mike

>Popularity often has little to do with quality or tradition.
Quality?
I doubt about that...... A trained sensory panel cannot distinguish
the difference between the taste of bread specimens made from both
combination method( using just very minimal amount of added yeast in
the dough side). and the 100% naturally leavened sourdough.( bakers
yeast free).
>From the conclusion of a food scientist who analyzed the sensory
data, the quality is similar.

>This group is devoted to sourdough bread so combination methods and
doughs
>using commercial yeast are really not relevant, whether you choose to
refer
>to them as sourdough or not

Really? so why not have this particular group moderated so any post
contrary to the ' very narrow 'subject matter of interest to this
group will be censored.

Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> LOL!
> !What a pity<g>
> You also have much to learn samartha .
> . Some .Artisanal bkeries who especialize in 100 % natural sourdough
> is just one small part of the bigger picture in sourdough baking.
> You may not like it but that;s the way it is.
the strictly traditional way you prefer.
> Roy

Well Roy,
I don't care much for todays methods either. The true Aritzans have sold
out for the cheaper easier faster methods. It doesn't take the consumer
very long to see what they are doing and to take their business elsewhere.
Ernie

Roy wrote:
<snip>
>
> Really? so why not have this particular group moderated so any post
> contrary to the ' very narrow 'subject matter of interest to this
> group will be censored.
>
> Roy

Joe

That a good idea Roy. Better then your idea of using bakers yeast to make
sourdough bread.

Joe Umstead

Roy wrote:
<snip>
>
> Really? so why not have this particular group moderated so any post
> contrary to the ' very narrow 'subject matter of interest to this
> group will be censored.
>
> Roy

Joe

That a good idea Roy. Better then your idea of using bakers yeast to make
sourdough bread.

Joe Umstead

On 1/18/05 11:15 PM, "Roy" > wrote:

<snip>

>A trained sensory panel cannot distinguish
> the difference between the taste of bread specimens made from both
> combination method( using just very minimal amount of added yeast in
> the dough side). and the 100% naturally leavened sourdough.( bakers
> yeast free).

> Roy

Roy,

I would be interested in some links to the evaluation and production
methodology mentioned above. It has not been my impression that baker's
yeast produces an equivalent product. The facts would be illuminating.

Will

On 1/18/05 11:15 PM, "Roy" > wrote:

<snip>

>A trained sensory panel cannot distinguish
> the difference between the taste of bread specimens made from both
> combination method( using just very minimal amount of added yeast in
> the dough side). and the 100% naturally leavened sourdough.( bakers
> yeast free).

> Roy

Roy,

I would be interested in some links to the evaluation and production
methodology mentioned above. It has not been my impression that baker's
yeast produces an equivalent product. The facts would be illuminating.

Will

On 1/18/05 9:35 PM, "Mike Pearce" > wrote:

<snip>

> This group is devoted to sourdough bread so combination methods and doughs
> using commercial yeast are really not relevant, whether you choose to refer
> to them as sourdough or not.
>
> -Mike

Roy has posted quite a few excellent summaries of what's going on chemically
with fermentation and crumb development. A little baker's yeast isn't going
to taint us...

Will

Roy wrote:

<someone wrote, attribute missing>

>> This group is devoted to sourdough bread so combination methods and
>> doughs using commercial yeast are really not relevant, whether you
>> choose to refer to them as sourdough or not
>
> Really? so why not have this particular group moderated...

Because this is a Usenet newsgroup, not a mailing list (although I
understand some paricipants receive the messages by mail as evinced by
the "mailman" (no relation) attribute) and when it was created was not
set up as moderated.

ftp://ftp.isc.org/usenet/control/rec...d.sourdough.gz

You can view it through Winzip.

B/

> wrote in message
...

> IMHO, commercial yeast is a fungus just like the many others present
> in the environment, and would therefore just add one other variety to
> these other ones without inhibiting their action.

It would add just one other variety, but it would add them in a number that
is not natural to the sourdough environment. By adding just a little yeast
you can tip the balance of the dough's microbial activity significantly. It
can help to raise the dough, but an active culture can raise the dough just
fine without any help from commercial yeast.

If you want a sourdough bread with sourdough features, commercial yeast will
not help you achieve this. Sourdough makes what it makes and adding yeast
does not make sourdough.

If you simply want a light and sour bread, there are other methods to
achieve this with or without the use of sourdough. Having said that, don't
let anyone tell you what you can or can't do -- your bread is just
that...yours. Do as you will.

Trevor

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Even if you select to visit only the ones using natural starters and
> avoid the ones using premixes and sourdough additives. you will see
> for yourself THE REALITY. that the combination methods is much more
> popular and prevalent .than the strictly traditional way you prefer.
> Roy

Popularity is not necessarily indicative of quality. The simple fact that
many professional bakers feel the need to assure a good rise for their
"sourdough" breads by using yeast implies that they are not confident in
their ability to raise bread by sourdough alone. Other commercial bakers are
quite capable of making well-risen sourdough bread without added yeast.

The "hobbyists" carry on the true tradition of baking bread -- using
sourdough alone to raise the bread they and their family and friends eat.
Commercial bakers who wish to follow this tradition can learn alot from the
sourdough "hobbyists".

Commercial yeast has it's place, but not in true sourdough.

Trevor

"Roy" wrote in message
oups.com...


> >Popularity often has little to do with quality or tradition.
> Quality?

Yes, quality.

> I doubt about that...... A trained sensory panel cannot distinguish
> the difference between the taste of bread specimens made from both
> combination method( using just very minimal amount of added yeast in
> the dough side). and the 100% naturally leavened sourdough.( bakers
> yeast free).
>>From the conclusion of a food scientist who analyzed the sensory
> data, the quality is similar.

Yes but I was talking about popularity meaning quality. No one said anything
about all breads using commercial yeast being of poor quality. Of course
some are of poor quality but the same could be said for some sourdough
breads. I know this for a fact because I've made poor quality bread both
with commercial yeast and sourdough. I'll bet you have too.

>>This group is devoted to sourdough bread so combination methods and
> doughs
>>using commercial yeast are really not relevant, whether you choose to
> refer
>>to them as sourdough or not
>
> Really? so why not have this particular group moderated so any post
> contrary to the ' very narrow 'subject matter of interest to this
> group will be censored.

Any one can post whatever they want here. It is an unmoderated group. That
doesn't mean that what is posted is on topic. If something is posted and is
off topic one should expect that their message will either be ignored or
someone might point out that the content is off topic.

-Mike

"Will" wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1106147115.263.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>"Mike Pearce" wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> Roy has posted quite a few excellent summaries of what's going on
> chemically
> with fermentation and crumb development. A little baker's yeast isn't
> going
> to taint us...

Will

If you choose to use commercial yeast in your dough it's fine with me. It
doesn't even matter to me if you choose to call the bread sourdough, just
don't expect me to do the same.

-Mike

On 1/19/05 8:01 PM, "Mike Pearce" > wrote:

>> "Mike Pearce" wrote:

> Will
>
> If you choose to use commercial yeast in your dough it's fine with me. It
> doesn't even matter to me if you choose to call the bread sourdough, just
> don't expect me to do the same.
>
> -Mike
>
Mike,

I haven't used commercial yeast in a bread or pizza dough for at least 10
years, maybe longer. And there's 20 years of bread baking before that. Nor
am I old and posting because I have nothing better to do, my children are
still teenagers.

I am fairly particular about bread. I mill all of my flour, build starters
from scratch quite frequently and malt my own grain. As a matter of fact,
there's 250 pounds of Montana's best currently secured in my basement.

I am sure you do all of these things too. You certainly wouldn't be a white
flour baker and be so adamant about whatever we call "sourdough".

If you read the thread, you would see that I asked Roy for some links to
investigate his point of view. That does not mean I don't believe Roy or
challenge his post. It means I'd like to understand how professional bakers
evaluate their efforts.

Hope that helps...

Will

>would be interested in some links to the evaluation and production
>methodology mentioned above. It has not been my impression that
>baker's
>yeast produces an equivalent product. The facts would be illuminating.

Will, regarding the matter about sensory evaluation of sourdough
breads, this was actually done by a large artisanal type bakery .
IIRC it happened several years back ;Sorry I cannot divulged its name
due to confidentiality reasons as I was connected to them previously.
I had searched in the many bakery literature if they had published
their results but I cannot find any indication that they did .Anyway
here is what happened(as what I still can remember).

They hired a food science services with ( experts of sensory analysis )
to work with them on their project ( sourdough bakery products in line
with their R&D and product development project to improve efficiency of
making their sourdough based breads.
>From what I remember in that study, also base the principle from
reports of European bakers( French) that addition of bakers yeast to
sourdough( using natural starter, french levain) in controlled amounts
could improve production efficiency without affecting quality.
They bakery owner had been thinking ( much earlier)of adding yeast to
their dough but was reluctant that it might affect the quality as what
they know from other bakeries who did the same. But they idea had
persisted in his mind. He had been doing some research in this line for
some time and his consultation with french bakers who give him the
confidence to pursue the actual study.
Therefore=85.
A series of tests was done using the French levain culture combined
with bakers yeast and compared it with their standard formulation 100%
levain( no added bakers yeast).. The most critical part of the study
was the determine if there is a taste (sensory)difference between the
pure levain raised bread and the spiked one(hybrid methods: levain and
calculated amount of added yeast in the dough side)..

It was done in a span of few months and in every trials samples of
bread were randomly collected ;and It was cooled down( 24 hours)
wrapped , labelled and sent to the food laboratory for sensory
evaluation with a trained taste panel( composed of 10 individuals)..
The immediate assessment of the sensory supervisor;( from the
collected data which she analyzed) she cannot find any significant
difference in taste.between the two controlled recipes( subjected to
the study) of a particular company=92s best selling bread variety.

In order to eliminate( supposed bias or error; they hired an
independent analyst to have a second look at the collected data.
It was a food scientist( who was also a food science professor in the
state university )whose specialisation was sensory analysis..
>From the bulk of collected data which was subjected to rigorous
statistical analysis ; it was confirmed that there was no significant
difference in taste between the standard formulation ( no added yeast)
and the modified recipe.
The result of that study was successfully applied and they never looked
back then.
I cannot say that all bakeries who practice the combined methods had
similar success as this particular company; but the idea is that the
supposed principle that bakers yeast is not compatible with sourdough
culture is not absolutely true.
This pirnciple=85..
It might be not suitable in really acidic cultures such as san
Francisco sourdough but keep in mind that sourdough cultures is so
varied throughout the world. What is good for some culture is not for
the other etc.
>From my point of view, I an not against the traditional ways of using
sourdough( no added yeast) . It is just that its not the only way to
make such breads. Sourdough baking is a broad subject in its own, and
Its queer to me to say that only those using 100 % naturally leavened
dough can be considered as sourdough when in fact its not.
I worked in bakeries that have used various ways to make sourdough
breads.:
>From traditional formulation , hybrids ,premixes, sourdough
concentrates., freeze dried sourdough extracts, and even artificial
acidulant added to simulate sourdough such as fumaric, citric lactic,
and acetic acids.
>From the quality standpoint they have obvious difference ; but so what
?you do not like what the make then do it your own way.
I think that is what the purpose of the group is all about.
Discuss and try the many aspects, principles and ideas about sourdough.
But its unfair to say that if other posters had radical ideas what the
want to do with sourdough like Wcjohn as unacceptable( when the fact is
Johns idea is legitimate and is widely used in the baking
industry ( making sourdough breads).
>Popularity is not necessarily indicative of quality. The simple fact
that
>many professional bakers feel the need to assure a good rise for their

>"sourdough" breads by using yeast implies that they are not confident
in
>their ability to raise bread by sourdough alone. Other commercial
bakers >are
quite capable of making well-risen sourdough bread without added yeast

But ,I cannot agree that it=92s the lack of skill that bakers resort to
alternative means to make sourdough there are reasons behind it some
are personal others pragmatic.
..If you say that word( which implies incompetence) to a passionate
practicing baker doing his stuff, you may not be able to get out of the
bakery alive<g>.
You really have to work in the bakery in order to gain insight how
these people think.

>Well Roy,
I> don't care much for todays methods either. The true Aritzans have
sold
>out for the cheaper easier faster methods. It doesn't take the
consumer
>very long to see what they are doing and to take their business
>elsewhere.
>Ernie

I would say that a hobbyist baker have different perspective with
regards to bakery production( artisanal and industrial) but a bakery
technologist had no bias against the opposite camps.
But find that there is a merit in both breadmaking styles. As that is
what the bakers world is all about.
It is just bread anyway, plain and simple. =85..
A true professional do not put emotion on those issues, it is just
part of the days job.
..

>The "hobbyists" carry on the true tradition of baking bread -- using
>sourdough alone to raise the bread they and their family and friends
eat.
>Commercial bakers who wish to follow this tradition can learn alot
from >the
>sourdough "hobbyists".

I would say that some sourdough bakes were hobbyist before, but if they
persisted with just being mere hobbyist they never could have deepened
their knowledge and significantly improve their baking skill.
Meanwhile
A true blooded baker has no bias against bread whatever its kind , he
is dispassionate to the differences,he understands the intricacies of
ingredients ,recipes, methods and techniques and can gracefully and
deftly makes his way to success whatever his interest employment of
entrepreneurship. What ever his inner discontent ( if any)about baking
he use it as an opportunity ,motivate him, to make something out of it.

; but a hobbyist is a fanatic even if he commercialize his hobby , his
narrow frame of mind will limit his intellectual growth and acquisition
of skill as he is not open to novel and radical means in doing his
trade.
He is more to remain an unhappy person



Roy

Kenneth, you can smile again (bottom post):

At 11:07 PM 1/19/2005, Roy (King of perpetual insistence and unmatchable
prominence of "knowing it all much better" what the rest of humanity still
has yet to learn to live truly happy and fulfilled) wrote:

>Will, regarding the matter about sensory evaluation of sourdough
>breads,

Sensory stimulation - taste buds, olfactory nerves are one level of
stimulation where every human nose with brain attached can be fooled. One
could assume that the testers had brains if they were not phantoms in a
nice sounding story.

See the artificial flavor department for details of how to create any
illusion desired - somewhat more involved than just with words.

In comparing sourdough breads and yeasted breads, nutritional value is a
major factor - long term feeding of humans from organic, fuller grain flour
natural sourdough leavened breads have health benefits from LB produced
sugars, enzymes, amino acids which influence and stimulate the intestinal
flora in a way which yet have to be fully understood. To get an idea on
possible impact of guts on a whole organism, please see:

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20030531/bob9.asp

I bet that all this did not have any impact on your evaluation.

Real sourheads have a gut feelings of what is right to consume and shy away
from fake, such as the saccharomyces cerevisiae (and related stories) which
is at the most cannon fodder for the real hot shots in sourdough
fermentation - specific LB's.

As Kenneth seems to realize that smiling and laughter is healthy as well, I
only can humbly bow down to the King and hope for more of the same.

;-)

Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Despite the elitist bent of some on this NG, I have chosen to learn from
Roy's posts instead of laugh. Ignorance is only bliss to the closed mind. Do
I follow or believe everything posted on this list? Only a fool would expect
that.

I believe most bread bakers realize sourdough is not something that has a
universally acceptable percentage of each bacilli or yeast variety. That is
one of the factors most bread bakers like about it. What I do find laughable
is the apparent belief by some that bread is going to taste EXACTLY the same
every time it is baked, or that it even should.

Raj V

"Roy" > wrote in message

A true professional do not put emotion on those issues, it is just
part of the days job.
Roy

Well Roy it seems to me that the true professional puts the
dollar ahead of his emotions and skill.
Take the case of the San Francisco Sourdugh Co. They
combined several well known Bakeries into one and changed
their procedures so that the bread is made by machine without
much regard to the product taste or quality.
They completely lost the flavor of the Colombo Round
Sourdough loaf.
They do however still sell the original Colombo to the local
restaurants in the area and it is this flavor that tourists and locals
love and expect when the buy the exported version of bread.
They export a lot of bread, but when they tried to expand
the operation to other locations they fell on their face as did
another Sourdough baker from further south.
Ernie