This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some of
the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a 24
hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I found a
nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it keeps it nice
around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont understand why
there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
of bread. HELP!

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote:

>This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
>loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
>use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some of
>the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a 24
>hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I found a
>nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it keeps it nice
>around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont understand why
>there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
>of bread. HELP!
>

Howdy,

One of the truly wonderful things about bread baking is the
great variety of things that can be made from a few very
simple ingredients.

Indeed, it is possible to make wonderful bread with the
variety of methods you have read about (and others).

Each of the results will be different, and that's the reason
for the challenge, and for the fun.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote:

>This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
>loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
>use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some of
>the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a 24
>hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I found a
>nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it keeps it nice
>around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont understand why
>there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
>of bread. HELP!
>

Howdy,

One of the truly wonderful things about bread baking is the
great variety of things that can be made from a few very
simple ingredients.

Indeed, it is possible to make wonderful bread with the
variety of methods you have read about (and others).

Each of the results will be different, and that's the reason
for the challenge, and for the fun.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

in article JkyEd.25319$jn.15486@lakeread06, HUTCHNDI at
wrote on 10/1/05 8:46 AM:

> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some of
> the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a 24
> hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I found a
> nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it keeps it nice
> around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont understand why
> there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
> of bread. HELP!
>
>
because it really doesn't make that much difference. It is the proportions
that count. Once your starter is established, it is really hard to kill it,
on the counter, in the fridge or anyplace
Ellen

--

in article JkyEd.25319$jn.15486@lakeread06, HUTCHNDI at
wrote on 10/1/05 8:46 AM:

> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some of
> the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a 24
> hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I found a
> nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it keeps it nice
> around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont understand why
> there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
> of bread. HELP!
>
>
because it really doesn't make that much difference. It is the proportions
that count. Once your starter is established, it is really hard to kill it,
on the counter, in the fridge or anyplace
Ellen

--

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a
basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour
says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon.
Some of
> the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!!

I'm a sd newbie, not one of the experts. But in my experience the
reason there is so much variability is that it really doesn't matter.
It will work any way you do it, usually. Remember, the sd yeast and
bacteria are continuously growing from the original innoculation,
during the refreshments, during the fermentation and during the proof.
You want to end up with enough rising power to get your loaf up within
the time and temperatures you choose. If your starter is active you
can just start with a relatively large amount somewhere between 25% and
40% of dough depending on the air temperatures. If you start from
something stored in the fridge or older, you need to build up to that
relatively large amount. So you start with 1/4t or 1T or something like
that and multiply it any number of times till you get the amount
necessary to raise the bread.

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a
basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour
says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon.
Some of
> the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!!

I'm a sd newbie, not one of the experts. But in my experience the
reason there is so much variability is that it really doesn't matter.
It will work any way you do it, usually. Remember, the sd yeast and
bacteria are continuously growing from the original innoculation,
during the refreshments, during the fermentation and during the proof.
You want to end up with enough rising power to get your loaf up within
the time and temperatures you choose. If your starter is active you
can just start with a relatively large amount somewhere between 25% and
40% of dough depending on the air temperatures. If you start from
something stored in the fridge or older, you need to build up to that
relatively large amount. So you start with 1/4t or 1T or something like
that and multiply it any number of times till you get the amount
necessary to raise the bread.

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a
>> basic loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur
>> flour says to use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says
>> a tablespoon. Some of the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!!
>
> I'm a sd newbie, not one of the experts. But in my experience the
> reason there is so much variability is that it really doesn't matter.
> It will work any way you do it, usually. Remember, the sd yeast and
> bacteria are continuously growing from the original innoculation,
> during the refreshments, during the fermentation and during the proof.
You may be new, Jonathan, but you've hit it exactly right! Slavish
attention to those kinds of measurements isn't necessary. If you use less
or it's cooler, it'll take longer. Use more or it's warmer, then it'll take
less time. Even with all that, the amount of variability isn't worth the
spit it would take to describe it...


Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a
>> basic loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur
>> flour says to use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says
>> a tablespoon. Some of the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!!
>
> I'm a sd newbie, not one of the experts. But in my experience the
> reason there is so much variability is that it really doesn't matter.
> It will work any way you do it, usually. Remember, the sd yeast and
> bacteria are continuously growing from the original innoculation,
> during the refreshments, during the fermentation and during the proof.
You may be new, Jonathan, but you've hit it exactly right! Slavish
attention to those kinds of measurements isn't necessary. If you use less
or it's cooler, it'll take longer. Use more or it's warmer, then it'll take
less time. Even with all that, the amount of variability isn't worth the
spit it would take to describe it...


Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0500, HUTCHNDI wrote:

> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some
> of the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a
> 24 hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I
> found a nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it
> keeps it nice around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont
> understand why there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make
> the same amount of bread. HELP!

I found that the amount of starter is not that important, 2 to 3 tbsp for
700g of flour will do. What is important is that the starter is lively and
that you make a good sponge. In the sponge the yeast bacteria are really
multiplied and when you add the remaining flour you have plenty of them.

JB

On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:46:40 -0500, HUTCHNDI wrote:

> This is very confusing. All of the literature I can find on making a basic
> loaf of sourdough bread is so different on this, king arthur flour says to
> use a 1/4 teaspoon of starter. Mr O'Shaughnessey says a tablespoon. Some
> of the web recipes say as much as two cups!!!! My schedule is such that a
> 24 hour (per Shaughnessy again) sponge development fits nicely, and I
> found a nice warm place in my basement (I have a steam boiler, and it
> keeps it nice around 75 to 80 degrees down there all winter). I dont
> understand why there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make
> the same amount of bread. HELP!

I found that the amount of starter is not that important, 2 to 3 tbsp for
700g of flour will do. What is important is that the starter is lively and
that you make a good sponge. In the sponge the yeast bacteria are really
multiplied and when you add the remaining flour you have plenty of them.

JB

HUTCHNDI wrote:
>
> This is very confusing...
> ...there is so much difference in recipes that apparently make the same amount
> of bread...

Part of the problem is that there is no real way to tell in many
procedures when the starter stops and the dough begins. If you
take a small spoon of storage leven and multiply it several times
before you add all of the final ingredients, Did the recipe call
for a spoon of starter or a couple of cups?

I recently spoke with a properly certified baker who had worked
in a genuine French bakery in a small town south of Paris and his
idea of the proper amount of natural Leven (sourdough starter)
was 30% of the dough weight.

I will add that this bit of information is completely useless
without the full details of the rest of the process. However, it
is more to the point than some of the discussions on how to beat
the laws of physics with Dilithium Crystals, or was that rocks in
the oven?

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

JB,

this may well be in your very special situation, as a general rule: take 2
- 3 tb of starter and 700 g flour (appropriate water and salt) and make
dough from it, bake it after two hours of rise and you'll see what you get,
no matter how lively your starter is.

Or - make a 50 % rye mix bread dough with 2 - 3 tb of lively starter,
ferment for 6 hours, bake and you'll also have to see what you can throw
this after.

Another thing is interesting what you write: "yeast bacteria". I always
come across "yeast and bacteria" in connection with sourdough. Maybe you
left out the "and" or why else might that be?

Samartha

At 11:56 AM 1/14/2005, you wrote:

>I found that the amount of starter is not that important, 2 to 3 tbsp for
>700g of flour will do. What is important is that the starter is lively and
>that you make a good sponge. In the sponge the yeast bacteria are really
>multiplied and when you add the remaining flour you have plenty of them.
>
>JB
>_______________________________________________
>Kenneth - probably no need to use the <Home> or <Page UP> key, it should
>fit on your screen.

===
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 01:01:16 -0700, Samartha wrote:

> JB,
>
> this may well be in your very special situation, as a general rule: take 2
> - 3 tb of starter and 700 g flour (appropriate water and salt) and make
> dough from it, bake it after two hours of rise and you'll see what you
> get, no matter how lively your starter is.
>
> Or - make a 50 % rye mix bread dough with 2 - 3 tb of lively starter,
> ferment for 6 hours, bake and you'll also have to see what you can throw
> this after.
>
> Another thing is interesting what you write: "yeast bacteria". I always
> come across "yeast and bacteria" in connection with sourdough. Maybe you
> left out the "and" or why else might that be?

Sorry, yeasts and bacteria are different, though both are unicellular
creatures. Need to go into the detail of the differences sometime.

I did see big differences with the preparation of the starter. If the
sponge is weak the end result is weak too (or strong when you throw it
at someone!). The best results with rye (50/50%) I get when I have a very
frothy sponge, make the dough, leave it in the fridge overnight and bake
it next day. A weak sponge immediately gives me a very sticky,
non-pneumatic dough which is worth nothing.

JB