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Starter not sour
Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast
that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? |
At 08:53 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
>Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? how about sour taste - if you dare to taste it? >_______________________________________________ >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough === remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
At 08:53 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote:
>Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? how about sour taste - if you dare to taste it? >_______________________________________________ >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough === remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:53:12 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: >Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? > > Howdy, I would suggest that you not be concerned with the taste or smell of the starter. You are not going to be eating it. Use it to make bread, and see if that results in the taste you want. HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:53:12 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: >Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? > > Howdy, I would suggest that you not be concerned with the taste or smell of the starter. You are not going to be eating it. Use it to make bread, and see if that results in the taste you want. HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
"HUTCHNDI" >=20 in message news:rscEd.24313$jn.9898@lakeread06 asked > Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? Quite likely caught the wrong one. After that, you'd need to worry about catching the right lactobacterium. So then you'd need to construct some sort of a thermoregulated enclosure for you stuff to grown in, and maybe more than one of those if you intend to make complicated breads. Then some baskets=20 for the dough to "proof" in. You'd need to learn some German to=20 order those, and something about the tax structure in the E.=20 Union and how to deal with domestic ("Homeland") customs. You also need to modify whatever inadequate oven you may have by adding ceramic or masonry slabs and figuring out some way to introduce adequate humidity ("steam") at the moment it is required. And that's just to start. You need some French to understand the banneton and the couche and the coupe and the lame, and some Italian and Polish, too, if you expect to cover all the bases when it comes to starters. And that's not all, but bandwidth is limited. So that is why it is sometimes said that it may be worthwhile to consider getting one's bread at the store. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
"HUTCHNDI" >=20 in message news:rscEd.24313$jn.9898@lakeread06 asked > Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? Quite likely caught the wrong one. After that, you'd need to worry about catching the right lactobacterium. So then you'd need to construct some sort of a thermoregulated enclosure for you stuff to grown in, and maybe more than one of those if you intend to make complicated breads. Then some baskets=20 for the dough to "proof" in. You'd need to learn some German to=20 order those, and something about the tax structure in the E.=20 Union and how to deal with domestic ("Homeland") customs. You also need to modify whatever inadequate oven you may have by adding ceramic or masonry slabs and figuring out some way to introduce adequate humidity ("steam") at the moment it is required. And that's just to start. You need some French to understand the banneton and the couche and the coupe and the lame, and some Italian and Polish, too, if you expect to cover all the bases when it comes to starters. And that's not all, but bandwidth is limited. So that is why it is sometimes said that it may be worthwhile to consider getting one's bread at the store. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
ok, i tasted the starter, still doesnt really taste like much, but after
some reading,( i have jack o'shaunessy's sourdough book here) i have moved my starter from the kitchen to the living room nearer to my woodstove, the kitchen is kind of cool at this time big old house, below 70 anyways. you think that might be a factor? "Samartha" > wrote in message news:mailman.1105288386.21825.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com... > At 08:53 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: > >Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast > >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try > >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few > >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding > >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose > >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My > >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that > >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? > > how about sour taste - if you dare to taste it? > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough > > === > remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address > |
On 1/9/05 10:30 AM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:53:12 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > >> Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commercial yeast >> that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >> making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >> days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >> twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king Arthur unbleached all purpose >> flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >> old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >> all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? >> >> > Howdy, > > I would suggest that you not be concerned with the taste or > smell of the starter. You are not going to be eating it. > > Use it to make bread, and see if that results in the taste > you want. > > HTH, Kenneth gives good advice about tasting your bread to see whether it is what you want, because in the end, that is what counts. But being concerned about the smell or taste of the starter is smart too. In this instance, your starter is telling you it is too large and fed too much, and fed too often, to develop the scent you think appropriate. You are adding 3/4 cup water and 1 cup flour TWICE a day. Since this is half of your total volume, your overall starter must be about a quart. That's quite a lot. You could go into business with that much starter. And it is the most refreshed starter I know of at twice a day (on a persistent basis). Really fresh starter, which is what yours is, doesn't smell very sour, if it smells sour at all. Samartha's web site has a nifty calculator (google for it) that will help you get a good handle on things like the ratio of starter to finished dough weight. You will see that what you need to produce 2 loaves, or about 1800 grams, of bread is about 200 grams of starter. You could use 600 grams too. It is a preference thing that will develop over time as you experiment. But the main thing now is to: 1) congratulate yourself on a successful start. Make bread and taste it. I'm betting it will be excellent, by the way. 2) reduce your starter to a volume that is realistic (to consumption) and adopt a feeding schedule that is easier on both time and wallet. Like twice a week, maintaining about 1/2 cup, refrigerated. It will smell sourer at that volume considering the longer interval (but will smell fresh when fed). By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now, possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Good luck, Will |
On 1/9/05 10:30 AM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:53:12 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > >> Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commercial yeast >> that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try >> making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few >> days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding >> twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king Arthur unbleached all purpose >> flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My >> old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that >> all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? >> >> > Howdy, > > I would suggest that you not be concerned with the taste or > smell of the starter. You are not going to be eating it. > > Use it to make bread, and see if that results in the taste > you want. > > HTH, Kenneth gives good advice about tasting your bread to see whether it is what you want, because in the end, that is what counts. But being concerned about the smell or taste of the starter is smart too. In this instance, your starter is telling you it is too large and fed too much, and fed too often, to develop the scent you think appropriate. You are adding 3/4 cup water and 1 cup flour TWICE a day. Since this is half of your total volume, your overall starter must be about a quart. That's quite a lot. You could go into business with that much starter. And it is the most refreshed starter I know of at twice a day (on a persistent basis). Really fresh starter, which is what yours is, doesn't smell very sour, if it smells sour at all. Samartha's web site has a nifty calculator (google for it) that will help you get a good handle on things like the ratio of starter to finished dough weight. You will see that what you need to produce 2 loaves, or about 1800 grams, of bread is about 200 grams of starter. You could use 600 grams too. It is a preference thing that will develop over time as you experiment. But the main thing now is to: 1) congratulate yourself on a successful start. Make bread and taste it. I'm betting it will be excellent, by the way. 2) reduce your starter to a volume that is realistic (to consumption) and adopt a feeding schedule that is easier on both time and wallet. Like twice a week, maintaining about 1/2 cup, refrigerated. It will smell sourer at that volume considering the longer interval (but will smell fresh when fed). By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now, possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Good luck, Will |
"Will" > wrote in message = news:mailman.35.1105293577.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... said this about = > By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language=20 > tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now,=20 > possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Well, not totally exactly on the money. There is the option of=20 getting a known starter, and following the simple instructions that=20 come with it. That, in the present hypersophisticated milieu,=20 however, must seem to be an entirely countercultural suggestion. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g Fast, cheap www.carlsfriends.org Very reliable, free -- DickA =20 |
"Will" > wrote in message = news:mailman.35.1105293577.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... said this about = > By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language=20 > tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now,=20 > possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Well, not totally exactly on the money. There is the option of=20 getting a known starter, and following the simple instructions that=20 come with it. That, in the present hypersophisticated milieu,=20 however, must seem to be an entirely countercultural suggestion. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g Fast, cheap www.carlsfriends.org Very reliable, free -- DickA =20 |
Will
> But being concerned about the smell or taste of the starter > is smart too. In this instance, your starter is telling you > it is too large and fed too much, and fed too often, to > develop the scent you think appropriate. You are adding 3/4 > cup water and 1 cup flour TWICE a day. Since this is half of > your total volume, your overall starter must be about a > quart. That's quite a lot. You could go into business with > that much starter. And it is the most refreshed starter I > know of at twice a day (on a persistent basis). Really fresh > starter, which is what yours is, doesn't smell very sour, if > it smells sour at all. Maintaining a pint of starter is ridiculous, but diluting twice a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, develops a bad smell. I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it again in the morning. |
Will
> But being concerned about the smell or taste of the starter > is smart too. In this instance, your starter is telling you > it is too large and fed too much, and fed too often, to > develop the scent you think appropriate. You are adding 3/4 > cup water and 1 cup flour TWICE a day. Since this is half of > your total volume, your overall starter must be about a > quart. That's quite a lot. You could go into business with > that much starter. And it is the most refreshed starter I > know of at twice a day (on a persistent basis). Really fresh > starter, which is what yours is, doesn't smell very sour, if > it smells sour at all. Maintaining a pint of starter is ridiculous, but diluting twice a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, develops a bad smell. I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it again in the morning. |
wow, glad i joined this newsgroup, you people are great..... yes, i already
am waiting for my little package from Carls friends, and i am looking forward to using this starter once i get it right, i will settle for biga bread tomorrow. while i have your attention, let me ask about my oven if you dont mind. i have a (new withint the last 6 months) jennair oven with bead proofing, standard and quick whatever that means, convection and standard electric oven, and i was wondering if any of you know much about this type stove, if any of the options should be used to optimize my bread baking, and if stem creation can in any way be detrimental to an electric oven. "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Will" > wrote in message news:mailman.35.1105293577.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... said this about > By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language > tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now, > possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Well, not totally exactly on the money. There is the option of getting a known starter, and following the simple instructions that come with it. That, in the present hypersophisticated milieu, however, must seem to be an entirely countercultural suggestion. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g Fast, cheap www.carlsfriends.org Very reliable, free -- DickA |
wow, glad i joined this newsgroup, you people are great..... yes, i already
am waiting for my little package from Carls friends, and i am looking forward to using this starter once i get it right, i will settle for biga bread tomorrow. while i have your attention, let me ask about my oven if you dont mind. i have a (new withint the last 6 months) jennair oven with bead proofing, standard and quick whatever that means, convection and standard electric oven, and i was wondering if any of you know much about this type stove, if any of the options should be used to optimize my bread baking, and if stem creation can in any way be detrimental to an electric oven. "Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... "Will" > wrote in message news:mailman.35.1105293577.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... said this about > By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language > tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now, > possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. Well, not totally exactly on the money. There is the option of getting a known starter, and following the simple instructions that come with it. That, in the present hypersophisticated milieu, however, must seem to be an entirely countercultural suggestion. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g Fast, cheap www.carlsfriends.org Very reliable, free -- DickA |
On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote:
<snip> > ...diluting twice > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, > develops a bad smell. > > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it > again in the morning. I agree. I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. Cuts down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things up quickly. Will |
On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote:
<snip> > ...diluting twice > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, > develops a bad smell. > > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it > again in the morning. I agree. I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. Cuts down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things up quickly. Will |
On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:59:20 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: > >"Will" > wrote in message >news:mailman.35.1105293577.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... >said this about > >> By-the-by... Dick Adams is right on the money. Get your language >> tapes and visit the bank. You will need a lot of equipment now, >> possibly a new kitchen, one with a garde manger at the least. > >Well, not totally exactly on the money. There is the option of >getting a known starter, and following the simple instructions that >come with it. That, in the present hypersophisticated milieu, >however, must seem to be an entirely countercultural suggestion. > >For instance: >http://tinyurl.com/6vm9g Fast, cheap >www.carlsfriends.org Very reliable, free >wow, glad i joined this newsgroup, you people are great..... yes, i already >am waiting for my little package from Carls friends, and i am looking >forward to using this starter once i get it right, i will settle for biga >bread tomorrow. while i have your attention, let me ask about my oven if you >dont mind. i have a (new withint the last 6 months) jennair oven with bead >proofing, standard and quick whatever that means, convection and standard >electric oven, and i was wondering if any of you know much about this type >stove, if any of the options should be used to optimize my bread baking, and >if stem creation can in any way be detrimental to an electric oven. >"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... [Corrected for top-posting] Howdy, I know nothing about your oven, but... Ovens that offer some sort of "proofing" simply maintain a temperature that is lower than will kill yeast, but higher than typical room temperature. That has the "virtue" of speeding the proofing process. I have virtue in quotes because, as is true for most fermented foods, when it comes to taste, slower is better. It is indeed possible to ferment grape juice in a day or two, but few would call the product "wine" and fewer would want to drink it <g>. Essentially the same thing is true of bread. If, for some reason, you are in a particular hurry, put the dough in the oven's proofer and nothing will be harmed. But, if you want the best possible tastes and textures, cooler temperatures will give yo the greatest rewards. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping
half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great big book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it down the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was planning to try to use for pancakes. "Will" > wrote in message news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com... > On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: > <snip> > > ...diluting twice > > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter > > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a > > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, > > develops a bad smell. > > > > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it > > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it > > again in the morning. > > I agree. > > I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room > temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. Cuts > down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things up > quickly. > > > Will > |
Kenneth wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:59:20 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > > <snip> > I have virtue in quotes because, as is true for most > fermented foods, when it comes to taste, slower is better. > > if you want > the best possible tastes and textures, cooler temperatures > will give yo the greatest rewards. > > All the best, > > -- > Kenneth > The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference in crust. Your oven's proofing cycle will come in handy however, for the last rise after shaping. Off topic, but good to know... this oven proof cycle is also good for fermenting yogurt. Will |
Kenneth wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:59:20 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > > <snip> > I have virtue in quotes because, as is true for most > fermented foods, when it comes to taste, slower is better. > > if you want > the best possible tastes and textures, cooler temperatures > will give yo the greatest rewards. > > All the best, > > -- > Kenneth > The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference in crust. Your oven's proofing cycle will come in handy however, for the last rise after shaping. Off topic, but good to know... this oven proof cycle is also good for fermenting yogurt. Will |
if you are lucky to get daryl greenwood to respond to this question
you will get the definative answer... at least once a month daryl post faq's for this group and links to his website... really good informaiton there.. all the starters I have seen even the friendship starters require many days.. you'd think it would go bad but its all in following the directions and keeping it at the right temp. I started one and it lived for a good while till I let it sleep in the fridge too long (smell to high hell) simple starters do as well as the complex ones... I agree with kenneth... slower is better and feeding should be done golly as I remember each 10 days you must refresh the dough... this means ditching half and adding new stuff to keep it going (FEEDING it) if I keep having extra energy (64 and feel 90 too often) I think I will get a starter going as my sourdough cornbread was the rave of parties... next will the sourdough jalapeno ha ha later still learning myself Herman On 9 Jan 2005 19:13:52 -0800, "Will" > wrote: >Kenneth wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:59:20 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" >> > wrote: >> >> <snip> > >> I have virtue in quotes because, as is true for most >> fermented foods, when it comes to taste, slower is better. >> > >> if you want >> the best possible tastes and textures, cooler temperatures >> will give yo the greatest rewards. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > > >The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough >needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk >build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference >in crust. > >Your oven's proofing cycle will come in handy however, for the last >rise after shaping. > >Off topic, but good to know... this oven proof cycle is also good for >fermenting yogurt. > >Will |
if you are lucky to get daryl greenwood to respond to this question
you will get the definative answer... at least once a month daryl post faq's for this group and links to his website... really good informaiton there.. all the starters I have seen even the friendship starters require many days.. you'd think it would go bad but its all in following the directions and keeping it at the right temp. I started one and it lived for a good while till I let it sleep in the fridge too long (smell to high hell) simple starters do as well as the complex ones... I agree with kenneth... slower is better and feeding should be done golly as I remember each 10 days you must refresh the dough... this means ditching half and adding new stuff to keep it going (FEEDING it) if I keep having extra energy (64 and feel 90 too often) I think I will get a starter going as my sourdough cornbread was the rave of parties... next will the sourdough jalapeno ha ha later still learning myself Herman On 9 Jan 2005 19:13:52 -0800, "Will" > wrote: >Kenneth wrote: >> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 17:59:20 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" >> > wrote: >> >> <snip> > >> I have virtue in quotes because, as is true for most >> fermented foods, when it comes to taste, slower is better. >> > >> if you want >> the best possible tastes and textures, cooler temperatures >> will give yo the greatest rewards. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > > >The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough >needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk >build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference >in crust. > >Your oven's proofing cycle will come in handy however, for the last >rise after shaping. > >Off topic, but good to know... this oven proof cycle is also good for >fermenting yogurt. > >Will |
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On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:19:49 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: >um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping >half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was >feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great big >book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it down >the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was >planning to try to use for pancakes. >"Will" > wrote in message >news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... >> On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: >> <snip> >> > ...diluting twice >> > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter >> > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a >> > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, >> > develops a bad smell. >> > >> > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it >> > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it >> > again in the morning. >> >> I agree. >> >> I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room >> temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. >Cuts >> down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things >up >> quickly. >> >> >> Will >> > Thanks, ?responding are you which to comment the above posting you are why But, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Will wrote the following on 1/9/2005 10:13 PM:
> The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough > needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk > build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference > in crust. Can it go longer than that? I'll be traveling and want to have a couple of loaves prepared Thursday night, but they won't be baked until Saturday morning. Currently I'm planing to just get the dough kneaded on Thursday evening and do the first rise in the refrigerator/cooler and do the stretch and folds and shaping Friday evening. Back in the refrigerator for the final rise and then bake Saturday. It would be a lot easier if I could have it all ready to go but keep the shaped loaves in the cooler/refrigerator from Thursday evening through Saturday morning. -- Karen R. Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address |
Will wrote the following on 1/9/2005 10:13 PM:
> The slow process cannot be over emphasized. A fully ripe, mature, dough > needs time to develop. 12 to 24 hours in the refrigerator after bulk > build will make an obvious difference in flavor and profound difference > in crust. Can it go longer than that? I'll be traveling and want to have a couple of loaves prepared Thursday night, but they won't be baked until Saturday morning. Currently I'm planing to just get the dough kneaded on Thursday evening and do the first rise in the refrigerator/cooler and do the stretch and folds and shaping Friday evening. Back in the refrigerator for the final rise and then bake Saturday. It would be a lot easier if I could have it all ready to go but keep the shaped loaves in the cooler/refrigerator from Thursday evening through Saturday morning. -- Karen R. Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address |
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 12:30:58 GMT, Karen
> wrote: >It would be a >lot easier if I could have it all ready to go but keep the shaped loaves >in the cooler/refrigerator from Thursday evening through Saturday morning. Hi Karen, As you know, there is a relationship between the temperature and the level of activity of the biological processes that ferment the dough. With the information available, I doubt that it is possible to predict with certainty whether your idea would work. My guess would be that it would not. I feel it likely that the loaves would be past the point that they were ready to bake were they to ferment at refrigerator temperatures that long. Some other thoughts: Often, when people want to slow up the fermentation, they do the sort of thing you are suggesting (though for a shorter time.) Sometimes, they are surprised how rapidly the loaves grow at that very cool temperature. One reason for their surprise is that they sometimes ignore the fact that the dough is typically rather warm when they put it in the cooler. There are ways around that: You could put your flour in the freezer, and also use ice water in your recipe. Those two things will cool your dough significantly, though you still might have trouble with your plan. And finally, if you do try the "rise 'em in the fridge" approach. Put the loaves in a plastic bag, inflate the bag, and seal it. I suggest that for two reasons: The humidity inside the refrigerator is very low, and often loaves crack as they dry out. Also, your dough is likely to pick up flavors and aromas from the other foods that are in there... HTH, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Sorry, im new to this newsgroup thing also. not sure excatly how to reply so
it goes in the right place. i was responding to a reply about how i was keeping the new starter so heavily refreshed, and how much starter must be acumulating..... "Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:19:49 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > > >um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping > >half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was > >feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great big > >book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it down > >the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was > >planning to try to use for pancakes. > >"Will" > wrote in message > >news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... > >> On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: > >> <snip> > >> > ...diluting twice > >> > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter > >> > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a > >> > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, > >> > develops a bad smell. > >> > > >> > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it > >> > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it > >> > again in the morning. > >> > >> I agree. > >> > >> I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room > >> temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. > >Cuts > >> down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things > >up > >> quickly. > >> > >> > >> Will > >> > > > > Thanks, > > ?responding are you which to comment the above posting you > are why > > But, > -- > Kenneth > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
Sorry, im new to this newsgroup thing also. not sure excatly how to reply so
it goes in the right place. i was responding to a reply about how i was keeping the new starter so heavily refreshed, and how much starter must be acumulating..... "Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:19:49 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > > >um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping > >half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was > >feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great big > >book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it down > >the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was > >planning to try to use for pancakes. > >"Will" > wrote in message > >news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... > >> On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: > >> <snip> > >> > ...diluting twice > >> > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter > >> > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a > >> > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, > >> > develops a bad smell. > >> > > >> > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it > >> > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it > >> > again in the morning. > >> > >> I agree. > >> > >> I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at room > >> temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. > >Cuts > >> down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp things > >up > >> quickly. > >> > >> > >> Will > >> > > > > Thanks, > > ?responding are you which to comment the above posting you > are why > > But, > -- > Kenneth > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:11:57 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: >Sorry, im new to this newsgroup thing also. not sure excatly how to reply so >it goes in the right place. i was responding to a reply about how i was >keeping the new starter so heavily refreshed, and how much starter must be >acumulating..... >"Kenneth" > wrote in message .. . >> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:19:49 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" >> > wrote: >> >> >um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping >> >half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was >> >feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great >big >> >book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it >down >> >the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was >> >planning to try to use for pancakes. >> >"Will" > wrote in message >> >news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... >> >> On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> > ...diluting twice >> >> > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter >> >> > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a >> >> > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, >> >> > develops a bad smell. >> >> > >> >> > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it >> >> > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it >> >> > again in the morning. >> >> >> >> I agree. >> >> >> >> I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at >room >> >> temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. >> >Cuts >> >> down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp >things >> >up >> >> quickly. >> >> >> >> >> >> Will >> >> >> > >> >> Thanks, >> >> ?responding are you which to comment the above posting you >> are why >> >> But, >> -- >> Kenneth >> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." > Hello again, When you are reading a message to which you wish to respond, just touch the "F" key (In Agent, that is for "Followup" I believe). Then, touch CNTL-END, and it will put your cursor at the bottom, and you can start typin' away. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
On Mon, 10 Jan 2005 08:11:57 -0500, "HUTCHNDI"
> wrote: >Sorry, im new to this newsgroup thing also. not sure excatly how to reply so >it goes in the right place. i was responding to a reply about how i was >keeping the new starter so heavily refreshed, and how much starter must be >acumulating..... >"Kenneth" > wrote in message .. . >> On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 19:19:49 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" >> > wrote: >> >> >um, i wasnt trying to maintain all this starter all along, i was dumping >> >half, as most of the web instructions told me to. the fact that i was >> >feeding twice a day came from a book i got from the library, the great >big >> >book of baking with king arthur flour. yesterday i stopped dumping it >down >> >the drain tho, and now have a little bowl of it in my fridge, which i was >> >planning to try to use for pancakes. >> >"Will" > wrote in message >> >news:mailman.36.1105312135.221.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com... >> >> On 1/9/05 4:51 PM, "James A.Donald" > wrote: >> >> <snip> >> >> > ...diluting twice >> >> > a day seems pretty reasonable to me. If I kept my starter >> >> > continuously warm, I would have to dilute it several times a >> >> > day, It goes sour very quickly, and if not swiftly diluted, >> >> > develops a bad smell. >> >> > >> >> > I dilute it by a factor of six or more every day, and keep it >> >> > in the fridge overnight, or else I would need to dilute it >> >> > again in the morning. >> >> >> >> I agree. >> >> >> >> I would refresh much more often too if I kept my starter wet and at >room >> >> temperature. I keep them drier, almost at dough consistency, and cool. >> >Cuts >> >> down on the work. I do use a sponge stage during the build to ramp >things >> >up >> >> quickly. >> >> >> >> >> >> Will >> >> >> > >> >> Thanks, >> >> ?responding are you which to comment the above posting you >> are why >> >> But, >> -- >> Kenneth >> >> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." > Hello again, When you are reading a message to which you wish to respond, just touch the "F" key (In Agent, that is for "Followup" I believe). Then, touch CNTL-END, and it will put your cursor at the bottom, and you can start typin' away. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
In another post, you wrote:
>which i was >planning to try to use for pancakes. that's a plan.. I did this for a long time - sourdough crepe-style pancakes. Don't know why I stopped. Nowadays, I keep very little starter extra and if I have too much, I "play" with it, just to see what happens and eventually make bread from it. I ran out of bred crumbs for braiding, and I had a very stiff starter/dough ball in the fridge for about a week which I used 1/2 for making white bread for bread crumbs. I still have the other half in the fridge. There were two loaves, I used one for the bread crumbs and about 1/2 is left from the other one: http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...P1100023-S.JPG Actually, there was talk how people keep their starters. Here is my current routine: I keep relatively small amounts - less than 1 oz in the fridge in small plastic containers (1/2 cup). To make starter with the DM3-Stage, only a few grams are needed for the first stage (6 g to make 4000 g dough 50/50 rye/wheat mixed grain). Then, when I am done with the final stage and made dough, I put a small amount from the starter in a new 1/2 cup container, label it with the date and kind of flour (rye full grain or light rye) and put it in the fridge for next time. I keep them for maybe a 1/2 year or so and then do something with it, either pancakes or trying what happens when I feed them again. When I want to make a different kind of bread - white flour breads. I derive the starter from the rye starter, then use either white bread flour or full grain wheat flour. It works great. The starter used with the bread above was initially grown with the DM3 process but with white flour and a little was left over which I let grow for a while until it got really liquid, then I made a bigger, very dry dough ball from it. Now, I found that larger starter amounts can be kept in the fridge for a while - 2 - 3 weeks and then used. I did it by doubling the existing (stored) starter - same amount of water and flour - and then growing it over night at 30 C (85 F). I had to make a little adjustment to the hydration (down maybe 2 %) because the starter had more water with the longer storage and slow activity. Another rule of thumb - simpler than the DM3 - is to take the starter out of the fridge, then triple it three times after every 6 - 8 hours before making bread. To calculate that is fairly easy too. Let's say, you want to make bread with a certain amount of starter, maybe 1000 g dough with 200 g starter; then you would divide the starter amount by 27 - that's 7 g, like a table spoon - than triple it three times 21 - 63 - 189, almost ;-) and make 2 loaves of 1 lb. At 10:42 AM 1/9/2005, you wrote: >ok, i tasted the starter, still doesnt really taste like much, but after >some reading,( i have jack o'shaunessy's sourdough book here) i have moved >my starter from the kitchen to the living room nearer to my woodstove, the >kitchen is kind of cool at this time big old house, below 70 anyways. you >think that might be a factor? You bet! I think like 85 is better. Samartha PS.: Don't get irritated by someone trying to tell you what keys to use on your computer and where to put your responses. That's totally up to you and what your newsreader does. Mine happens to get the top of the post and then I have to scroll down through all the re-quotes, find where they end and then discover some nonsense. The "you have to post this way to go to heaven" in connection with the "We" word happens sporadically, probably to check out people how they react. Or do the old trying to dominate/manipulate thing because they got nothing better to do (or whatever the reason for this is). remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
well, i stopped feeding my starter so much twice a day, now i have a new
concern. the starter this morning has about 1/4 inch of clear yellowish liquid on top, and the only smell i can think of is some kind of paint? is this in any way normal? i know about a liquid forming on the top, but this smell is nothing i have read about.... "Kenneth" > wrote in message ... > On Sun, 9 Jan 2005 10:53:12 -0500, "HUTCHNDI" > > wrote: > > >Hello, new to this. I originally had a starter made from commericial yeast > >that I used for making a few loaves of bread, worked ok, but wanted to try > >making a natural one. Made a new starter from rye flour and water, in a few > >days it got bubbling, but no smell. I have been removing half and feeding > >twice a day, 3/4 cup water and 1 cup king arthur unbleached all purpose > >flour, and it seams active, but still no sour smell. Almost a week now. My > >old commercial yeast starter at least had a sour smell to it. (i used that > >all to get rid of it). Did I catch an unsour yeast or what? > > > > > Howdy, > > I would suggest that you not be concerned with the taste or > smell of the starter. You are not going to be eating it. > > Use it to make bread, and see if that results in the taste > you want. > > HTH, > > -- > Kenneth > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
"Samartha" > wrote in message = news:mailman.1105427892.21000.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c= om... =20 > [ ... ] > Another rule of thumb - simpler than the DM3 - is to take the starter = out=20 > of the fridge, then triple it three times after every 6 - 8 hours = before=20 > making bread. Hey, WOW! I REALLY like that. =20 ***SIMPLE!*** But, considering Detmold, and assuming that we are talking about some kind of rye bread, how would I know for each stage that I had the right temperature and degree of gloppiness to nurture whichever of the=20 microorganisms I happened to be interested in at the time? And how = about=20 durations? In Detmold they have a different duration for each = combination=20 of temperature and hydration. If we are not talking about rye bread, why would we be talking about Detmold? Anyway, let's talk about rye bread, if that is OK with you (Samartha). Following the information kindly translated by Christiane, namely http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm , I would really need to know that the pH was surely low enough to prevent the amylases from chewing up the starches to the degree that there would be none left to = hold the loaf together. Well, I really groove on rye bread, in spite of health-food prices for = rye berries in New England, and would certainly rise to its occasion if = there was some hope of understanding why I was doing what during the complex maze of stages required, and without doing titrations to confirm = adequate acidity. I could optimistically hope, for instance, that there might be a way to = judge the completion of a prefermentation by seeing a rise followed by a = fall-back. But that would involve a uniform optimal consistency for all preferment = stages. The idea of doing a strictly timed fermentation, particularly without = respect to temperature, does not seem appealing. It was asked: > > the kitchen is kind of cool at this time big old house, below 70 = anyway. you > > think that might be a factor? So you (Samartha) said: > You bet! I think like 85 is better. Cripes! Does that mean you are backing off on the requirements for = particular temperatures for particular stages? Do you suppose there is some hope that the whole rigmarole can be = executed in a temperature-controlled residence at ~70 degr.F. , or in an oven = fortuitously=20 temperature-controlled by a pilot and/or electric bulb to ~85 degr. F.? > Don't get irritated by someone trying to tell you what keys to use on=20 > your computer and where to put your responses. Jeepers!, it seems that you are really getting permissive! But don't = you think that people at least ought to find their shift (caps) key before attempting = to=20 communicate at r.f.s.? --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html =20 |
Dick Adams wrote: > Well, I really groove on rye bread, in spite of health-food prices for rye > berries in New England, and would certainly rise to its occasion if there > was some hope of understanding why I was doing what during the complex > maze of stages required, and without doing titrations to confirm adequate > acidity. Here you go... A digital pH tester. http://www.thermoworks.com/products/pH/iq120_125.html Be sure to review the unit that averages several readings. Wouldn't do to be fooled by sour spots. > I could optimistically hope, for instance, that there might be a way to judge > the completion of a prefermentation by seeing a rise followed by a fall-back. > But that would involve a uniform optimal consistency for all preferment stages. > The idea of doing a strictly timed fermentation, particularly without respect to > temperature, does not seem appealing. While you're checking out pH you can temp scan your dough with this... http://www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/index.html There's no reason to let something as mundane as money get between you and significant rye bread. Gear up! Will |
"Will" > wrote in message oups.com... > http://www.thermoworks.com/products/pH/iq120_125.html > Be sure to review the unit that averages several readings. Wouldn't do > to be fooled by sour spots. > While you're checking out pH you can temp scan your dough with this... www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/index.html > There's no reason to let something as mundane as money get between you > and significant rye bread. > Gear up! > Will LOL, There are ph meters going for $15 on eBay and digital thermometers for fish tanks for $6. Ernie |
On 1/11/05 4:03 PM, "Ernie" > wrote:
> > "Will" > wrote in message > oups.com... >> http://www.thermoworks.com/products/pH/iq120_125.html >> Be sure to review the unit that averages several readings. Wouldn't do >> to be fooled by sour spots. >> While you're checking out pH you can temp scan your dough with this... > www.thermoworks.com/products/ir/index.html >> There's no reason to let something as mundane as money get between you >> and significant rye bread. >> Gear up! >> Will > > LOL, > There are ph meters going for $15 on eBay and digital thermometers for > fish tanks for $6. > Ernie > Must be a lot of dead fish associated with that stuff <BG>... Will |
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:03:21 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote: >LOL, >There are ph meters going for $15 on eBay and digital thermometers for >fish tanks for $6. >Ernie > Hi Ernie, There are currently fiddles on eBay from $14.95 to $130,000.00. I guess there are some real bargains to be had at the lower end of that range... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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