On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:03:21 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>LOL,
>There are ph meters going for $15 on eBay and digital thermometers for
>fish tanks for $6.
>Ernie
>

Hi Ernie,

There are currently fiddles on eBay from $14.95 to
$130,000.00.

I guess there are some real bargains to be had at the lower
end of that range...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

In =
news:mailman.1105512607.7175.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.co=
m
responded at length to something I had posted.

Thank you, Samartha, for your comprehensive reply.

Well, I thought you might be interested in the following statements
for Howard McGee's latest (2004) edition of his book _On Food=20
and Cooking_.

Page 544: "It isn't easy to make good bread with sourdough=20
cultures. There are two reasons for this. One is that the=20
bacteria grow faster than the yeasts, almost always outnumber=20
them by factors of a hundred or a thousand, and inhibit the yeasts'=20
gas production: so sourdoughs often don't rise very well. The=20
other is that acid conditions and bacterial protein-digesting=20
enzymes weaken the dough gluten, which makes it less elastic=20
and the resulting bread more dense."

About rye breads, on page 545, he says: "Rye proteins simply=20
do not form an elastic network lke gluten, apparently because=20
the glutenin molecules can't link up end-to-end into long chains. =20
Rye has another major bread-making liability; it tends to begin=20
sprouting before harvest, so its starch-digesting enzymes are=20
active during baking and break down the other major sources=20
of dough structure. Nevertheless, bakers in northern Europe=20
found a way of making unique raised bread from pure rye flour."

I don't think these words necessarily refute anything you may=20
have said, and it is does seem curious that Mr. McGee has=20
nothing further to say about rye breads, except that N. European
bakers have figured it out, even to the extent that they can make
it from pure rye flour.

With regards to his comments on Page 544, I suspect that the=20
biggest problem people have with white sourdoughs is the usual
bad advice that sourdoughs should be made sour by allowing=20
the preferments, particularly the "sponge" (typically the last
preferment stage) to sour.

It is enigmatic to the verge of being conundrumatic that souring
of preferments is a requirement for successful rye loaves. That
particular dissonance makes rational thought about best=20
conditions for mixed rye/wheat bread problematic, to say the
least.

My best present hope for the success of rye bread in my=20
kitchen (that kitchen to which Mrs. Adams occasionally permits=20
my access) is that there may be a vegetable indicator dye which=20
is colorless at pH's conducive to optimal rye fermentation, and
distinctly colored it.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

=20

On 1/12/05 9:17 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> In news:mailman.1105512607.7175.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.com
> responded at length to something I had posted.
>
> Thank you, Samartha, for your comprehensive reply.
>
> <snip> mostly quotes from Howard McGee's latest (2004) edition of his book _On
>Food and Cooking.
>
>
> It is enigmatic to the verge of being conundrumatic that souring
> of preferments is a requirement for successful rye loaves. That
> particular dissonance makes rational thought about best
> conditions for mixed rye/wheat bread problematic, to say the
> least.
>
Does this translate to: "making bread with rye is mysterious and puzzling"?
Or am I simply trying too hard?

Will

Rye timid Dick,

what you quote and write about Howard McGee's book makes me think he is
quite a bone-head and his book better avoided.

LB : Yeast ratio is 100 : 1 and apparently stable with a constant
procedure, the yeast cells are much larger and produce much more CO2.

Looks, he doesn't have a clue.

I was at a book store today with some extra time available looking at bread
books.

Source for entertainment is looking how they make Pumpernickels and starters.

Ed Woods new book's Pumpernickel is a joke (he doesn't have a clue!)
whereas Jeffrey Hamelman speaks my soul, although he still has some wheat
in his.

Also, me thinks that you maybe should speculate less, forget about the pH
and just make a decent mixed grain rye bread with a full grain rye starter.

You did pretty well with your modified pumpernickel rye cooking.

It's a fact that good rye breads have been made for longer than pH meters
exist, why not trust this and try to recreate it?

The pH meters with web links recently posted here have a precision of 0.1
pH - so if you spend that much money on something, you really want to know
if your starer is getting down to 3.2 and not speculate if it's actually
3.3, or perhaps even 3.1.

IMO, totally useless for serious sourheads. You probably want something
like that:

http://www.hannainst.com/products/foodcare/99161.htm

with that electrode:

http://www.hannainst.com/products/electro/fc202d.htm

Anyway,

Samartha


At 08:17 AM 1/12/2005, you wrote:

>In news:mailman.1105512607.7175.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.com
>responded at length to something I had posted.
>
>Thank you, Samartha, for your comprehensive reply.
>
>Well, I thought you might be interested in the following statements
>for Howard McGee's latest (2004) edition of his book _On Food
>and Cooking_.
>
>Page 544: "It isn't easy to make good bread with sourdough
>cultures. There are two reasons for this. One is that the
>bacteria grow faster than the yeasts, almost always outnumber
>them by factors of a hundred or a thousand, and inhibit the yeasts'
>gas production: so sourdoughs often don't rise very well. The
>other is that acid conditions and bacterial protein-digesting
>enzymes weaken the dough gluten, which makes it less elastic
>and the resulting bread more dense."
>
>About rye breads, on page 545, he says: "Rye proteins simply
>do not form an elastic network lke gluten, apparently because
>the glutenin molecules can't link up end-to-end into long chains.
>Rye has another major bread-making liability; it tends to begin
>sprouting before harvest, so its starch-digesting enzymes are
>active during baking and break down the other major sources
>of dough structure. Nevertheless, bakers in northern Europe
>found a way of making unique raised bread from pure rye flour."
>
>I don't think these words necessarily refute anything you may
>have said, and it is does seem curious that Mr. McGee has
>nothing further to say about rye breads, except that N. European
>bakers have figured it out, even to the extent that they can make
>it from pure rye flour.
>
>With regards to his comments on Page 544, I suspect that the
>biggest problem people have with white sourdoughs is the usual
>bad advice that sourdoughs should be made sour by allowing
>the preferments, particularly the "sponge" (typically the last
>preferment stage) to sour.
>
>It is enigmatic to the verge of being conundrumatic that souring
>of preferments is a requirement for successful rye loaves. That
>particular dissonance makes rational thought about best
>conditions for mixed rye/wheat bread problematic, to say the
>least.
>
>My best present hope for the success of rye bread in my
>kitchen (that kitchen to which Mrs. Adams occasionally permits
>my access) is that there may be a vegetable indicator dye which
>is colorless at pH's conducive to optimal rye fermentation, and
>distinctly colored it.
>
>--
>Dick Adams
><firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
>___________________
>Sourdough FAQ guide at
>http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

===
Kenneth, if you landed here, the <Home> key could probably do something for
you - if that doesn't work, maybe repeated pressing of <Pg UP> ?
remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

In article
ountainbitwarrior.com>
,
Samartha > wrote:

> Ed Woods new book's Pumpernickel is a joke (he doesn't have a clue!)
> whereas Jeffrey Hamelman speaks my soul, although he still has some wheat
> in his.


I'm also using the Hamelman book and although I often feel like I'm
juggling (as I'm learning several new techniques or approaches) or I'm
back in organic chem class.... (not so bad but been there done that),
his formulas for making bread are great. Since the book is pointed at
people making bread on a bigger scale, you really need to read and
absorb the technique before starting the actual bread since the
formula/recipe assumes you know the technique involved.

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter

http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org

In article
ountainbitwarrior.com>
,
Samartha > wrote:

> Ed Woods new book's Pumpernickel is a joke (he doesn't have a clue!)
> whereas Jeffrey Hamelman speaks my soul, although he still has some wheat
> in his.


I'm also using the Hamelman book and although I often feel like I'm
juggling (as I'm learning several new techniques or approaches) or I'm
back in organic chem class.... (not so bad but been there done that),
his formulas for making bread are great. Since the book is pointed at
people making bread on a bigger scale, you really need to read and
absorb the technique before starting the actual bread since the
formula/recipe assumes you know the technique involved.

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter

http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org

Samartha > wrote in
news:mailman.1105427892.21000.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com
:

> http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...P1100023-S.JPG

Thanks for the magnificent web site on making starter and bread, Samartha.
I particularly appreciated your documented experience with Carl's Oregon
Trail starter and your San Francisco Sourdough bread process and photos.

Your comments are incisive and helpful on this newsgroup. Thank you.