pics of a bread-baking day

http://gallery.lakey.net/gallery/BreadRecipe

Thanks for showing your photos. That's tasty looking bread (cute baby too).

I think for some of the nervous readers on rfs that are unsure when the starter
is ready or when the dough has risen enough, your photos provide a very easy to
follow timeline.

Good work,

Ed Bechtel

Thanks for showing your photos. That's tasty looking bread (cute baby too).

I think for some of the nervous readers on rfs that are unsure when the starter
is ready or when the dough has risen enough, your photos provide a very easy to
follow timeline.

Good work,

Ed Bechtel

"Ed Bechtel" > in message=20
said about
oups.com

> ... I think for some of the nervous readers on rfs that are unsure =
when the starter
> is ready or when the dough has risen enough, your photos provide a =
very easy to
> follow timeline.

Well, in the link given in the referenced post, namely
http://gallery.lakey.net/gallery/BreadRecipe
MacGregor had written under the photo representing a 6 hour sponge:

"leave at least 2 more hours for sponge ripen fully, the sponge can be =
used at=20
any time during this stage, letting it ripen further develops the =
flavors, i often=20
let it go until i start seeing early signs of hooch appear (overnight =
for instance)"

I think that 8 hours at room temperature is rather long for a sponge, =
and that
waiting for hooch over a sponge is not a good idea at all. Also rather =
thin=20
preferments (including sponge) were shown. Were they thicker, =
judgements
about their maturity would be easier to make on the basis of volume =
increase.

Preferments do not seem to me to be the place for trying to develop =
flavors.

Good photos and presentation.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

the thin preferments seem to move along a bit quicker (observation
based on nothing more than trial and error). I've had a lot of
friends try sourdough only to become frustrated reporting back "bricks"
and "dead starters", so that was the primary goal behind doing the
journal was to show a simplified guide for baking a decent loaf that:
a) doesn't require a 3 day committment,
b) will be suitable for sandwiches, toast, etc. replacing store bought
sliced bread applications
c) can be modified/tweaked to suit purpose.


that being said, i will trying thicker preferments today, to see if i
can preferment longer and get more of that certain sourdough flavor i'm
looking for occasionally.

the thin preferments seem to move along a bit quicker (observation
based on nothing more than trial and error). I've had a lot of
friends try sourdough only to become frustrated reporting back "bricks"
and "dead starters", so that was the primary goal behind doing the
journal was to show a simplified guide for baking a decent loaf that:
a) doesn't require a 3 day committment,
b) will be suitable for sandwiches, toast, etc. replacing store bought
sliced bread applications
c) can be modified/tweaked to suit purpose.


that being said, i will trying thicker preferments today, to see if i
can preferment longer and get more of that certain sourdough flavor i'm
looking for occasionally.

On 12/1/04 6:13 AM, "MacGregor" > wrote:

> the thin preferments seem to move along a bit quicker (observation
> based on nothing more than trial and error). I've had a lot of
> friends try sourdough only to become frustrated reporting back "bricks"
> and "dead starters", so that was the primary goal behind doing the
> journal was to show a simplified guide for baking a decent loaf that:
> a) doesn't require a 3 day committment,
> b) will be suitable for sandwiches, toast, etc. replacing store bought
> sliced bread applications
> c) can be modified/tweaked to suit purpose.
>
>
> that being said, i will trying thicker preferments today, to see if i
> can preferment longer and get more of that certain sourdough flavor i'm
> looking for occasionally.

I liked the slideshow, very clean and straightforward. As far as impacting
flavor, fooling with the hydration level will not have a significant effect,
other than to make progress easier to measure (as DickA pointed out). To
develop more complexity in the crumb and crust you will have to retard the
doughs after they are mixed. I use a cold cellar in the winter and the
refrigerator otherwise. In general, overnight, or anywhere from 12 to 24
hours, is a good amount of time to slow everything down and allow the dough
to ripen fully. After the cold period, your regular proofing cycle resumes.
I know this additional step sounds like the beginnings of the 3 day
ordeal... but Valerie probably isn't counting yet.

If my experience is any prognosticator, you will not get your friends to
bake bread no matter how simple you make it or how passionately you promote
it. Like the ministry, bread baking is a calling. Some feel it, but not
many. (Though the unenlightened are always genuinely grateful eaters.)

Will


>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

the people in this case are also brew their own beer, so sourdough's
not that far of a stretch for them.

the people in this case are also brew their own beer, so sourdough's
not that far of a stretch for them.

On 12/1/04 10:07 AM, "MacGregor" > wrote:

> the people in this case are also brew their own beer, so sourdough's
> not that far of a stretch for them.
>
I never had the good fortune to proselytize among brewers, my efforts were
largely limited to the chardonnay crowd. Lazy folks with good taste.

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 12/1/04 10:07 AM, "MacGregor" > wrote:

> the people in this case are also brew their own beer, so sourdough's
> not that far of a stretch for them.
>
I never had the good fortune to proselytize among brewers, my efforts were
largely limited to the chardonnay crowd. Lazy folks with good taste.

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 2004-12-01, Will Waller > wrote:
[...]
> To develop more complexity in the crumb and crust you will have to
> retard the doughs after they are mixed. I use a cold cellar in the
> winter and the refrigerator otherwise. In general, overnight, or
> anywhere from 12 to 24 hours, is a good amount of time to slow
> everything down and allow the dough to ripen fully. After the cold
> period, your regular proofing cycle resumes.
[...]

So your method is to slow down the fermentation immediately after
mixing/kneading? I find that if I do this with only sourdough
leavening (no yeast), it takes a loooong time to see any activity in
the dough. (Of course, I use a small percentage of starter in the
dough -- generally about 10% of total flour comes from the starter.)

What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
(after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
in the oven.

--
Randall

On 2004-12-01, Will Waller > wrote:
[...]
> To develop more complexity in the crumb and crust you will have to
> retard the doughs after they are mixed. I use a cold cellar in the
> winter and the refrigerator otherwise. In general, overnight, or
> anywhere from 12 to 24 hours, is a good amount of time to slow
> everything down and allow the dough to ripen fully. After the cold
> period, your regular proofing cycle resumes.
[...]

So your method is to slow down the fermentation immediately after
mixing/kneading? I find that if I do this with only sourdough
leavening (no yeast), it takes a loooong time to see any activity in
the dough. (Of course, I use a small percentage of starter in the
dough -- generally about 10% of total flour comes from the starter.)

What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
(after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
in the oven.

--
Randall

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:01:05 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>Of course, you also
>need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
>of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
>in the oven.

Hi Randall,

Why would putting cold dough in the oven be something to
avoid? I do it frequently.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:01:05 GMT, Randall Nortman
> wrote:

>Of course, you also
>need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
>of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
>in the oven.

Hi Randall,

Why would putting cold dough in the oven be something to
avoid? I do it frequently.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:15:44 -0600, Will Waller
> wrote:

>On 12/1/04 12:51 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:01:05 GMT, Randall Nortman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, you also
>>> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
>>> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
>>> in the oven.
>>
>> Hi Randall,
>>
>> Why would putting cold dough in the oven be something to
>> avoid? I do it frequently.
>>
>> All the best,
>
>Kenneth,
>
>I tend to get that nasty fly-away crust trouble when I put a cold loaf in
>the hot oven. So whenever I work with cool loaves I move to batard/baguette
>shapes. That helps (but not always).
>
>Will

Hi Will,

Interesting...

I have made many dozens of loaves by putting the
refrigerated, formed, dough right into the oven.

On many occasions (usually because of schedule), I have
formed the loaves, put them into bannetons, and then let
them proof slowly in the refrigerator until they are at the
same volume at which I would have baked them were they to
have risen at warmer temperatures. Doing that, I have not
had the flying crust problem at all.

That is not in any way to argue with your experience, just
to offer mine.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 14:15:44 -0600, Will Waller
> wrote:

>On 12/1/04 12:51 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:01:05 GMT, Randall Nortman
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, you also
>>> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
>>> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
>>> in the oven.
>>
>> Hi Randall,
>>
>> Why would putting cold dough in the oven be something to
>> avoid? I do it frequently.
>>
>> All the best,
>
>Kenneth,
>
>I tend to get that nasty fly-away crust trouble when I put a cold loaf in
>the hot oven. So whenever I work with cool loaves I move to batard/baguette
>shapes. That helps (but not always).
>
>Will

Hi Will,

Interesting...

I have made many dozens of loaves by putting the
refrigerated, formed, dough right into the oven.

On many occasions (usually because of schedule), I have
formed the loaves, put them into bannetons, and then let
them proof slowly in the refrigerator until they are at the
same volume at which I would have baked them were they to
have risen at warmer temperatures. Doing that, I have not
had the flying crust problem at all.

That is not in any way to argue with your experience, just
to offer mine.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

That's a Great photo essay... I just sent the link to my sister in law,
who's had a couple of failures this week...

Your breads look wonderful and your pictures are well done too.
Thanks for posting them.

Rina

"MacGregor" > wrote in message > pics of a bread-baking
day
>
> http://gallery.lakey.net/gallery/BreadRecipe
>

That's a Great photo essay... I just sent the link to my sister in law,
who's had a couple of failures this week...

Your breads look wonderful and your pictures are well done too.
Thanks for posting them.

Rina

"MacGregor" > wrote in message > pics of a bread-baking
day
>
> http://gallery.lakey.net/gallery/BreadRecipe
>

> So your method is to slow down the fermentation immediately after
> mixing/kneading? I find that if I do this with only sourdough
> leavening (no yeast), it takes a loooong time to see any activity in
> the dough. (Of course, I use a small percentage of starter in the
> dough -- generally about 10% of total flour comes from the starter.)
>
> What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
> (after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
> activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
> rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
> in the oven.


Hey all,
I played around alot with retarding dough, and I found out that if I
give a short/warm(2-4h 90-95F) fermenting of the dough and then a long
cold second rise(8-12h 50-55F), i get a more sour bread with some
complexity in it.when I do a long/cold (6-12h 50-70F) first ferment
and a short/warm second rise(2-3h 90-95F)I get a sweeter dough with a
sour tang to it (i think that the tang comes from the crust) but not a
sour taste. usually when i give a long/cold first rise I put more
starter in the dough(lets say 20-25% starter flour out of total flour)
and for a warm first proof cut down the starter amount to 10-15%.
thats for all wheat breads with my starter.
Also when doing a cold/long first rise try giving the dough about an
hour at room temprature before putting it in the fridge.
When baking cold dough its usually takes much longer to bake about
45-55min for a loaf that would have been baked for 35min if put warm
in the oven.

Happy baking

Amit .B.

> So your method is to slow down the fermentation immediately after
> mixing/kneading? I find that if I do this with only sourdough
> leavening (no yeast), it takes a loooong time to see any activity in
> the dough. (Of course, I use a small percentage of starter in the
> dough -- generally about 10% of total flour comes from the starter.)
>
> What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
> (after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
> activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
> rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
> in the oven.


Hey all,
I played around alot with retarding dough, and I found out that if I
give a short/warm(2-4h 90-95F) fermenting of the dough and then a long
cold second rise(8-12h 50-55F), i get a more sour bread with some
complexity in it.when I do a long/cold (6-12h 50-70F) first ferment
and a short/warm second rise(2-3h 90-95F)I get a sweeter dough with a
sour tang to it (i think that the tang comes from the crust) but not a
sour taste. usually when i give a long/cold first rise I put more
starter in the dough(lets say 20-25% starter flour out of total flour)
and for a warm first proof cut down the starter amount to 10-15%.
thats for all wheat breads with my starter.
Also when doing a cold/long first rise try giving the dough about an
hour at room temprature before putting it in the fridge.
When baking cold dough its usually takes much longer to bake about
45-55min for a loaf that would have been baked for 35min if put warm
in the oven.

Happy baking

Amit .B.

Randall Nortman wrote:

> What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
> (after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
> activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
> rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
> in the oven.

I've been getting my best loaves ever by putting loaves into the oven
within 30 minutes of taking them out of the refrigerator, after an
overnight rise in there. When I let them sit room temperature for a
couple of hours they would actually deflate a bit after going in the
oven.

--
Karen R.
Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address

Randall Nortman wrote:

> What do you think of the alternative -- do the first fermentation
> (after mixing) at room temperature until there are strong signs of
> activity (doubled in volume or so), then form the loaves and let them
> rise slowly in the refrigerator for 12-24 hours. Of course, you also
> need to let them sit at room temperature again for at least a couple
> of hours before baking so that you're not putting cold dough directly
> in the oven.

I've been getting my best loaves ever by putting loaves into the oven
within 30 minutes of taking them out of the refrigerator, after an
overnight rise in there. When I let them sit room temperature for a
couple of hours they would actually deflate a bit after going in the
oven.

--
Karen R.
Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address