My sourdough bread only stays fresh for about 2 days(Brazil - > 40C
ambient temperature and very low humidity ATM), so I only make loaves
with 300-400 grams of flour. It's just me and the wife ...

Yes, I know I can make toast, but that defeats the object of lovely
crust/gummy interior.

Is there a way to make a larger batch and freeze part of it, so I can
make once - bake multiple days?

If so, what is the optimum "stage" at which the dough should be
frozen?
Just after the folds/after the first rise/after the shaping?

Online "advice" is often contradictory.

Anyone freeze regularly?
TIA
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:07:37 -0300, Shadow wrote:

> My sourdough bread only stays fresh for about 2 days(Brazil - > 40C
> ambient temperature and very low humidity ATM), so I only make loaves
> with 300-400 grams of flour. It's just me and the wife ...
>
> Yes, I know I can make toast, but that defeats the object of lovely
> crust/gummy interior.
>
> Is there a way to make a larger batch and freeze part of it, so I can
> make once - bake multiple days?
>
> If so, what is the optimum "stage" at which the dough should be
> frozen?
> Just after the folds/after the first rise/after the shaping?
>
> Online "advice" is often contradictory.
>
> Anyone freeze regularly?
> TIA
> []'s

I live alone so my needs are small. Therefore, when I bake bread, I make
several loaves (up to 12) and freeze them in polythene bags. If you freeze,
say, 6 loaves and eat bread every day, there will be no problem as there
should be little problem for 3-4 months. After that, one sees evidence of
dehydration (ice crystals) in the bag. Defrost such a loaf in the bag and
the water will be absorbed and the loaf perfectly edible.
Therefore, don't worry and freeze your bread.
Hope this helps.
Graham

On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:21:55 -0600, Graham > wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:07:37 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>> My sourdough bread only stays fresh for about 2 days(Brazil - > 40C
>> ambient temperature and very low humidity ATM), so I only make loaves
>> with 300-400 grams of flour. It's just me and the wife ...
>>
>> Yes, I know I can make toast, but that defeats the object of lovely
>> crust/gummy interior.
>>
>> Is there a way to make a larger batch and freeze part of it, so I can
>> make once - bake multiple days?
>>
>> If so, what is the optimum "stage" at which the dough should be
>> frozen?
>> Just after the folds/after the first rise/after the shaping?
>>
>> Online "advice" is often contradictory.
>>
>> Anyone freeze regularly?
>> TIA
>> []'s
>
>I live alone so my needs are small. Therefore, when I bake bread, I make
>several loaves (up to 12) and freeze them in polythene bags. If you freeze,
>say, 6 loaves and eat bread every day, there will be no problem as there
>should be little problem for 3-4 months. After that, one sees evidence of
>dehydration (ice crystals) in the bag. Defrost such a loaf in the bag and
>the water will be absorbed and the loaf perfectly edible.
>Therefore, don't worry and freeze your bread.
>Hope this helps.
>Graham

I make sourdough pan bread(usually three 800 gram loaves at a
time). After it's cooled I slice it and put it in plastic bags, suck
out the air and freeze. I can take out 2-3 slices at a time and make
toast. It lasts over a month in the freezer. So I agree with what you
wrote. I've done it for years.
But my question was about freezing dough when making Italian
style Dutch oven-baked bread. Freezing takes away the crunchyness(my
spell checker is having a fit) and the great aroma of a freshly baked
bread.
I know you can freeze starter without killing it, but does
anyone know the best "phase" to freeze the dough?
After folding to incorporate the starter? Before or after
adding the salt? After the first rise? When it's ready to be put in
the fridge for the last rise?

My "phases":
1) Mix flour with water
2) Autolyse 1-2 hours (depends on the flour)
3) Incorporate the starter.
4) After +- 30 minutes incorporate the salt
5) 3 stretch and folds every 30 minutes
6) Let it sit until I can see it rising
7) Shape, put in banneton, let it rise about 20 - 25%
8) Fridge overnight
9) Take it out next morning and bake when it "feels" ready

If I could most of them with 1800 grams of flour, separate the
dough into 4 lumps, use one and freeze the other three, it would save
a lot of cleaning up/ watching the clock etc.
TIA
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:49:20 -0300, Shadow wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:21:55 -0600, Graham > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:07:37 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>
>>> My sourdough bread only stays fresh for about 2 days(Brazil - > 40C
>>> ambient temperature and very low humidity ATM), so I only make loaves
>>> with 300-400 grams of flour. It's just me and the wife ...
>>>
>>> Yes, I know I can make toast, but that defeats the object of lovely
>>> crust/gummy interior.
>>>
>>> Is there a way to make a larger batch and freeze part of it, so I can
>>> make once - bake multiple days?
>>>
>>> If so, what is the optimum "stage" at which the dough should be
>>> frozen?
>>> Just after the folds/after the first rise/after the shaping?
>>>
>>> Online "advice" is often contradictory.
>>>
>>> Anyone freeze regularly?
>>> TIA
>>> []'s
>>
>>I live alone so my needs are small. Therefore, when I bake bread, I make
>>several loaves (up to 12) and freeze them in polythene bags. If you freeze,
>>say, 6 loaves and eat bread every day, there will be no problem as there
>>should be little problem for 3-4 months. After that, one sees evidence of
>>dehydration (ice crystals) in the bag. Defrost such a loaf in the bag and
>>the water will be absorbed and the loaf perfectly edible.
>>Therefore, don't worry and freeze your bread.
>>Hope this helps.
>>Graham
>
> I make sourdough pan bread(usually three 800 gram loaves at a
> time). After it's cooled I slice it and put it in plastic bags, suck
> out the air and freeze. I can take out 2-3 slices at a time and make
> toast. It lasts over a month in the freezer. So I agree with what you
> wrote. I've done it for years.
> But my question was about freezing dough when making Italian
> style Dutch oven-baked bread. Freezing takes away the crunchyness(my
> spell checker is having a fit) and the great aroma of a freshly baked
> bread.
> I know you can freeze starter without killing it, but does
> anyone know the best "phase" to freeze the dough?
> After folding to incorporate the starter? Before or after
> adding the salt? After the first rise? When it's ready to be put in
> the fridge for the last rise?
>
> My "phases":
> 1) Mix flour with water
> 2) Autolyse 1-2 hours (depends on the flour)
> 3) Incorporate the starter.
> 4) After +- 30 minutes incorporate the salt
> 5) 3 stretch and folds every 30 minutes
> 6) Let it sit until I can see it rising
> 7) Shape, put in banneton, let it rise about 20 - 25%
> 8) Fridge overnight
> 9) Take it out next morning and bake when it "feels" ready
>
> If I could most of them with 1800 grams of flour, separate the
> dough into 4 lumps, use one and freeze the other three, it would save
> a lot of cleaning up/ watching the clock etc.
> TIA
> []'s

I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
banneton out of the freezer.

On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 11:59:55 -0600, Graham > wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 14:49:20 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:21:55 -0600, Graham > wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:07:37 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>>
>>>> My sourdough bread only stays fresh for about 2 days(Brazil - > 40C
>>>> ambient temperature and very low humidity ATM), so I only make loaves
>>>> with 300-400 grams of flour. It's just me and the wife ...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I know I can make toast, but that defeats the object of lovely
>>>> crust/gummy interior.
>>>>
>>>> Is there a way to make a larger batch and freeze part of it, so I can
>>>> make once - bake multiple days?
>>>>
>>>> If so, what is the optimum "stage" at which the dough should be
>>>> frozen?
>>>> Just after the folds/after the first rise/after the shaping?
>>>>
>>>> Online "advice" is often contradictory.
>>>>
>>>> Anyone freeze regularly?
>>>> TIA
>>>> []'s
>>>
>>>I live alone so my needs are small. Therefore, when I bake bread, I make
>>>several loaves (up to 12) and freeze them in polythene bags. If you freeze,
>>>say, 6 loaves and eat bread every day, there will be no problem as there
>>>should be little problem for 3-4 months. After that, one sees evidence of
>>>dehydration (ice crystals) in the bag. Defrost such a loaf in the bag and
>>>the water will be absorbed and the loaf perfectly edible.
>>>Therefore, don't worry and freeze your bread.
>>>Hope this helps.
>>>Graham
>>
>> I make sourdough pan bread(usually three 800 gram loaves at a
>> time). After it's cooled I slice it and put it in plastic bags, suck
>> out the air and freeze. I can take out 2-3 slices at a time and make
>> toast. It lasts over a month in the freezer. So I agree with what you
>> wrote. I've done it for years.
>> But my question was about freezing dough when making Italian
>> style Dutch oven-baked bread. Freezing takes away the crunchyness(my
>> spell checker is having a fit) and the great aroma of a freshly baked
>> bread.
>> I know you can freeze starter without killing it, but does
>> anyone know the best "phase" to freeze the dough?
>> After folding to incorporate the starter? Before or after
>> adding the salt? After the first rise? When it's ready to be put in
>> the fridge for the last rise?
>>
>> My "phases":
>> 1) Mix flour with water
>> 2) Autolyse 1-2 hours (depends on the flour)
>> 3) Incorporate the starter.
>> 4) After +- 30 minutes incorporate the salt
>> 5) "stretch and fold" every 30 minutes - total 3x
>> 6) Let it sit until I can see it rising
>> 7) Shape, put in banneton, let it rise about 20 - 25%
>> 8) Fridge overnight
>> 9) Take it out next morning and bake when it "feels" ready
>>
>> If I could do most of them with 1800 grams of flour, separate the
>> dough into 4 lumps, use one and freeze the other three, it would save
>> a lot of cleaning up/ watching the clock etc.
>> TIA
>> []'s
>
>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>banneton out of the freezer.

I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
TY
PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
is not my native language.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:

>>
>>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>banneton out of the freezer.
>
> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
> TY
> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
> is not my native language.
> []'s

Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
Graham

On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 19:04:37 -0600, Graham > wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>>>
>>>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>>banneton out of the freezer.
>>
>> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
>> TY
>> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
>> is not my native language.
>> []'s
>
>Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
>Graham

Well, to be honest, the "experiment" was a bit of a flop. It
took so long to unfreeze that the outer layers over-proofed before the
inner ones started fermenting.
Re-shaping was out of the question, I'd be mixing the bad with
the good.
Lots of big bubbles at the sides/top/bottom, but hardly any in
the center. Not much of a "crusty" crust either.
Taste was OK, but nothing special..
I'll have to re-think this.

[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:56:39 -0300, Shadow wrote:

> On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 19:04:37 -0600, Graham > wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>>>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>>>banneton out of the freezer.
>>>
>>> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
>>> TY
>>> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
>>> is not my native language.
>>> []'s
>>
>>Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
>>Graham
>
> Well, to be honest, the "experiment" was a bit of a flop. It
> took so long to unfreeze that the outer layers over-proofed before the
> inner ones started fermenting.
> Re-shaping was out of the question, I'd be mixing the bad with
> the good.
> Lots of big bubbles at the sides/top/bottom, but hardly any in
> the center. Not much of a "crusty" crust either.
> Taste was OK, but nothing special..
> I'll have to re-think this.
>
> []'s

Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
often imported from other EEC countries.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 08:53:19 -0600, Graham wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:56:39 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 19:04:37 -0600, Graham > wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>>>>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>>>>banneton out of the freezer.
>>>>
>>>> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
>>>> TY
>>>> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
>>>> is not my native language.
>>>> []'s
>>>
>>>Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
>>>Graham
>>
>> Well, to be honest, the "experiment" was a bit of a flop. It
>> took so long to unfreeze that the outer layers over-proofed before the
>> inner ones started fermenting.
>> Re-shaping was out of the question, I'd be mixing the bad with
>> the good.
>> Lots of big bubbles at the sides/top/bottom, but hardly any in
>> the center. Not much of a "crusty" crust either.
>> Taste was OK, but nothing special..
>> I'll have to re-think this.
>>
>> []'s
>
> Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
> They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
> France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
> often imported from other EEC countries.

Just a thought but perhaps you defrosted at room temperature. Next time,
defrost in the fridge. Then the dough will thaw without any appreciable
rising. Then you can let it proof at room temperature.

Graham > wrote:
>>
>> Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
>> They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
>> France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
>> often imported from other EEC countries.
>
> Just a thought but perhaps you defrosted at room temperature. Next time,
> defrost in the fridge. Then the dough will thaw without any appreciable
> rising. Then you can let it proof at room temperature.

I have a vague (and possibly mistaken) memory of frozen dough sold in the
supermarket which could be thawed, proofed and baked to make fresh bread.
This was at least twenty years ago, I never tried it and haven't looked since.
Did anybody ever try it?

I have tried both freezing/thawing and simply rising dough in the fridge.
Neither seems to work half so well as simply starting with warm materials
and letting the yeast work at room or slightly elevated temperature to
completion, usually over a span of five or so hours. Whenever I try to
apply some brakes, the rise doesn't recover.

The two obvious suspects are yeast activity and dough gas retention. Anybody
willing to hazard a guess? Being able to pause and restart the rise would
be very handy. My dough is 60% white 40% wholewheat King Arthur, 60% water
at most. Red Star active dry yeast behaved about the same as sourdough
starter.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 17:58:46 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska wrote:

> Graham > wrote:
>>>
>>> Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
>>> They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
>>> France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
>>> often imported from other EEC countries.
>>
>> Just a thought but perhaps you defrosted at room temperature. Next time,
>> defrost in the fridge. Then the dough will thaw without any appreciable
>> rising. Then you can let it proof at room temperature.
>
> I have a vague (and possibly mistaken) memory of frozen dough sold in the
> supermarket which could be thawed, proofed and baked to make fresh bread.
> This was at least twenty years ago, I never tried it and haven't looked since.
> Did anybody ever try it?
>
> I have tried both freezing/thawing and simply rising dough in the fridge.
> Neither seems to work half so well as simply starting with warm materials
> and letting the yeast work at room or slightly elevated temperature to
> completion, usually over a span of five or so hours. Whenever I try to
> apply some brakes, the rise doesn't recover.
>
> The two obvious suspects are yeast activity and dough gas retention. Anybody
> willing to hazard a guess? Being able to pause and restart the rise would
> be very handy. My dough is 60% white 40% wholewheat King Arthur, 60% water
> at most. Red Star active dry yeast behaved about the same as sourdough
> starter.
>
> Thanks for reading,
>
> bob prohaska

Overnight "rising" in the fridge has never made sense to me, although I
have tried it. After all, the fridge is supposed to be cold enough to
minimise any microbial activity. I do use the fridge when making
butter-rich doughs such as brioche, but that is to make the dough easier to
handle.
Many years ago, friends of mine who have long-since died, used to buy large
packs of frozen bread dough from the supermarket. One summer they left for
vacation and after a few days realised that they had turned off the
electricity. They raced back to find that the dough had thawed and risen,
forcing the freezer door open.

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:27:24 -0600, Graham > wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 08:53:19 -0600, Graham wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:56:39 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 5 Oct 2020 19:04:37 -0600, Graham > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>>>>>loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>>>>>banneton out of the freezer.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
>>>>> TY
>>>>> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
>>>>> is not my native language.
>>>>> []'s
>>>>
>>>>Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
>>>>Graham
>>>
>>> Well, to be honest, the "experiment" was a bit of a flop. It
>>> took so long to unfreeze that the outer layers over-proofed before the
>>> inner ones started fermenting.
>>> Re-shaping was out of the question, I'd be mixing the bad with
>>> the good.
>>> Lots of big bubbles at the sides/top/bottom, but hardly any in
>>> the center. Not much of a "crusty" crust either.
>>> Taste was OK, but nothing special..
>>> I'll have to re-think this.
>>>
>>> []'s
>>
>> Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
>> They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
>> France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
>> often imported from other EEC countries.
>
>Just a thought but perhaps you defrosted at room temperature.

Yes, and it was well over 30C in the kitchen.

>Next time, defrost in the fridge. Then the dough will thaw without any appreciable
>rising. Then you can let it proof at room temperature.

Maybe. It was a lot of work for nothing. Except experience, I
suppose.
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On Sat, 17 Oct 2020 17:58:46 -0000 (UTC), bob prohaska
> wrote:

>Graham > wrote:
>>>
>>> Ask a worker in your local supermarket bakery how they manage to do it.
>>> They receive all their breads frozen and then bake on demand. Even in
>>> France, many so-called boulangeries operate this way, the pre-formed breads
>>> often imported from other EEC countries.
>>
>> Just a thought but perhaps you defrosted at room temperature. Next time,
>> defrost in the fridge. Then the dough will thaw without any appreciable
>> rising. Then you can let it proof at room temperature.
>
>I have a vague (and possibly mistaken) memory of frozen dough sold in the
>supermarket which could be thawed, proofed and baked to make fresh bread.
>This was at least twenty years ago, I never tried it and haven't looked since.
>Did anybody ever try it?
>
>I have tried both freezing/thawing and simply rising dough in the fridge.
>Neither seems to work half so well as simply starting with warm materials
>and letting the yeast work at room or slightly elevated temperature to
>completion, usually over a span of five or so hours. Whenever I try to
>apply some brakes, the rise doesn't recover.
>
>The two obvious suspects are yeast activity and dough gas retention. Anybody
>willing to hazard a guess? Being able to pause and restart the rise would
>be very handy. My dough is 60% white 40% wholewheat King Arthur, 60% water
>at most. Red Star active dry yeast behaved about the same as sourdough
>starter.
>
>Thanks for reading,

When I feed my starter I put it in the fridge, it rises for
almost a day and then collapses, so microbial activity is still
happening. Out of the fridge that would happen in under 4 hours. I
don't bake that often so the fridge it is.

I always thought that cold favored the lactobacillus, hence a
more sour bread(which I prefer). I just reviewed Samartha's site, and
the opposite is true.
LOL. I'll avoid the fridge next time I bake and do the whole
process at room temperature.
Go Lactobacillus!!!!

Tech stuff:

https://aem.asm.org/content/64/7/2616.full

https://aem.asm.org/content/aem/64/7/2616/F1.large.jpg

A and B are lactobacilli(two different strains). C is
Candida(yeast). The growth optimum for the bacillus is around 32-34C,
for the yeast it's ~27C

Samartha's homepage:

http://samartha.net/SD/

HTH
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 05-Oct-20 18:04, Graham wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Oct 2020 20:20:17 -0300, Shadow wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I would freeze raw dough after the first rise. In fact I would form the
>>> loaves and then freeze them, then they would be ready to put into a
>>> banneton out of the freezer.
>>
>> I'll try it in the near future and describe the results...
>> TY
>> PS I post-edited my text. Some phrases made no sense. English
>> is not my native language.
>> []'s
>
> Your posts were perfectly clear to me!
> Graham
>
An excellent discussion. Thank you gentlemen.

Dusty
--
"The ultimate result of shielding men from folly is to fill the world
with fools." -- Herbert Spencer