Many sources say a high temperature in a pre-heated oven is essential
for "oven spring".

This is counter-intuitive to me: wouldn't a slow, gradual heating
allow the yeast cells more time to increase activity, feed, inflate,
reproduce? As opposed to the quicker death they would meet with a sudden
thermal shock?

Or is oven spring due to something else entirely?

--
Dario Niedermann. Also on the Internet at:

gopher://retro-net.org/1/dnied/ , http://devio.us/~ndr/

On Mon, 30 May 2016 13:18:57 +0200, Dario Niedermann
> wrote:

>Many sources say a high temperature in a pre-heated oven is essential
>for "oven spring".
>
>This is counter-intuitive to me: wouldn't a slow, gradual heating
>allow the yeast cells more time to increase activity, feed, inflate,
>reproduce? As opposed to the quicker death they would meet with a sudden
>thermal shock?
>
>Or is oven spring due to something else entirely?

Oven spring is due to the CO2 trapped in the dough rapidly
increasing in volume (can't remember gas physics, but it's a very
large increase). There is not much contribution by the torched yeasts.
Slow, gradually heating would dry out the crust and make it
harder for the dough to expand.
IMHO - I'm not willing to waste a batch of dough in a test.
Try it and show us your results.
[]'s

PS Yeast activity peaks in the 23 Celsius region. Hardly oven
temperatures.
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

On 30/05/2016 5:18 AM, Dario Niedermann wrote:
> Many sources say a high temperature in a pre-heated oven is essential
> for "oven spring".
>
> This is counter-intuitive to me: wouldn't a slow, gradual heating
> allow the yeast cells more time to increase activity, feed, inflate,
> reproduce? As opposed to the quicker death they would meet with a sudden
> thermal shock?
>
> Or is oven spring due to something else entirely?
>
Dick Adams, who used to be a regular here, extolled the virtues of
baking from cold for his tinned SD loaves.
http://carlsfriends.net/dickpics/billowy.html

I tried it with boules with disastrous results. When the loaf had
finished baking, despite a slash on the top, there was a major split
near the bottom edge. On cutting it open there was a huge tunnel in the
middle of the loaf *not flying crust from over proofing*.
I think that this was due to the yeast activity during the warm up.
I tried the method 2 or 3 times with identical results so I gave up and
now bake only with a pre-heated oven.
Graham

The yeast do all their work before oven entry by filling the dough with CO2 bubbles. Oven spring is just the expansion of the already present CO2 (as both gas and dissolved in the liquid). The dough springs only if it is weak enough not to resist and the internal pressure is adequate to inflate it.

You can do a neat experiment if you have a Save-A-Meal or some other vacuum sealer: proof 100g of dough in a clear straight sided 12 oz water glass; pull a good vacuum and measure how much it expands. The volume grown should approximate your potential oven spring. If you bake a similarly proofed piece of dough in your oven and get more oven spring, it can be attribute the overage to yeast action after oven entry. If you get less, the dough got too strong too fast relative to how fast the internal pressure was building up. This is generally because your oven is too cool and you cook the outside before the dissolved CO2 has turned to gas and really pushed the oven spring.

For real oven conditions, measurable yeast activity after oven entry is a wives tale and total BS! (IMHO)

Doc

On 5/30/2016 11:35 PM, Doc wrote:
> The yeast do all their work before oven entry by filling the dough with CO2 bubbles. Oven spring is just the expansion of the already present CO2 (as both gas and dissolved in the liquid). The dough springs only if it is weak enough not to resist and the internal pressure is adequate to inflate it.
>
> You can do a neat experiment if you have a Save-A-Meal or some other vacuum sealer: proof 100g of dough in a clear straight sided 12 oz water glass; pull a good vacuum and measure how much it expands. The volume grown should approximate your potential oven spring. If you bake a similarly proofed piece of dough in your oven and get more oven spring, it can be attribute the overage to yeast action after oven entry. If you get less, the dough got too strong too fast relative to how fast the internal pressure was building up. This is generally because your oven is too cool and you cook the outside before the dissolved CO2 has turned to gas and really pushed the oven spring.
>
> For real oven conditions, measurable yeast activity after oven entry is a wives tale and total BS! (IMHO)
>
> Doc
>

I don't have any scientific input to bring to the discussion, just
anecdotal. The first recipe I used to make sourdough bread called for
putting the loaf into a cold oven and letting the it heat slowly. While
I did not have the issues that Graham had, I did not notice anything
significantly different from when I put the loaves into a preheated
oven. I went back to preheating the oven before baking.

On 5/30/2016 11:42 AM, graham wrote:
> On 30/05/2016 5:18 AM, Dario Niedermann wrote:
>> Many sources say a high temperature in a pre-heated oven is essential
>> for "oven spring".
>>
>> This is counter-intuitive to me: wouldn't a slow, gradual heating
>> allow the yeast cells more time to increase activity, feed, inflate,
>> reproduce? As opposed to the quicker death they would meet with a sudden
>> thermal shock?
>>
>> Or is oven spring due to something else entirely?
>>
> Dick Adams, who used to be a regular here, extolled the virtues of
> baking from cold for his tinned SD loaves.
> http://carlsfriends.net/dickpics/billowy.html
>
> I tried it with boules with disastrous results. When the loaf had
> finished baking, despite a slash on the top, there was a major split
> near the bottom edge. On cutting it open there was a huge tunnel in the
> middle of the loaf *not flying crust from over proofing*.
> I think that this was due to the yeast activity during the warm up.
> I tried the method 2 or 3 times with identical results so I gave up and
> now bake only with a pre-heated oven.
> Graham
>
I don't have any scientific input to bring to the discussion, just
anecdotal. The first recipe I used to make sourdough bread called for
putting the loaf into a cold oven and letting the it heat slowly. While
I did not have the issues that Graham had, I did not notice anything
significantly different from when I put the loaves into a preheated
oven. I went back to preheating the oven before baking.

On 5/31/2016 1:15 PM, dejamos wrote:
> On 5/30/2016 11:35 PM, Doc wrote:
>> The yeast do all their work before oven entry by filling the dough
>> with CO2 bubbles. Oven spring is just the expansion of the already
>> present CO2 (as both gas and dissolved in the liquid). The dough
>> springs only if it is weak enough not to resist and the internal
>> pressure is adequate to inflate it.
>>
>> You can do a neat experiment if you have a Save-A-Meal or some other
>> vacuum sealer: proof 100g of dough in a clear straight sided 12 oz
>> water glass; pull a good vacuum and measure how much it expands. The
>> volume grown should approximate your potential oven spring. If you
>> bake a similarly proofed piece of dough in your oven and get more oven
>> spring, it can be attribute the overage to yeast action after oven
>> entry. If you get less, the dough got too strong too fast relative to
>> how fast the internal pressure was building up. This is generally
>> because your oven is too cool and you cook the outside before the
>> dissolved CO2 has turned to gas and really pushed the oven spring.
>>
>> For real oven conditions, measurable yeast activity after oven entry
>> is a wives tale and total BS! (IMHO)
>>
>> Doc
>>
>
> I don't have any scientific input to bring to the discussion, just
> anecdotal. The first recipe I used to make sourdough bread called for
> putting the loaf into a cold oven and letting the it heat slowly. While
> I did not have the issues that Graham had, I did not notice anything
> significantly different from when I put the loaves into a preheated
> oven. I went back to preheating the oven before baking.
Sorry for the double posting - I got an error the first time I tried.

On Mon, 30 May 2016 21:35:20 -0700 (PDT), Doc >
wrote:

>The yeast do all their work before oven entry by filling the dough with CO2 bubbles. Oven spring is just the expansion of the already present CO2 (as both gas and dissolved in the liquid). The dough springs only if it is weak enough not to resist and the internal pressure is adequate to inflate it.
>
>You can do a neat experiment if you have a Save-A-Meal or some other vacuum sealer: proof 100g of dough in a clear straight sided 12 oz water glass; pull a good vacuum and measure how much it expands. The volume grown should approximate your potential oven spring. If you bake a similarly proofed piece of dough in your oven and get more oven spring, it can be attribute the overage to yeast action after oven entry. If you get less, the dough got too strong too fast relative to how fast the internal pressure was building up. This is generally because your oven is too cool and you cook the outside before the dissolved CO2 has turned to gas and really pushed the oven spring.
>
>For real oven conditions, measurable yeast activity after oven entry is a wives tale and total BS! (IMHO)

+1,
(IMHO of course)

[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012