I posted previously about how I prepare "sourdough" bread.

If I bake on a regular basis, between two and six days, I let my starter
develop at room temperature. I use all of the starter for a bread except
for what sticks to the container. I then feed with water, sugar, and
flour. I cannot rely on the starter's yeast so I use commercial yeast
for leavening.

If there is one problem I get, it is that I do not get as much leavening
as I would like even with commercial yeast. This makes me wonder if the
acidic starter tends to suppress the yeast's activity. While I intend to
carry out some experiments on my own, I would like to know, from someone
who does know, if acidity is important. Is that why some recipes call
for the use of baking soda?

Bill

--
An old man would be better off never having been born.

Salmon Egg > wrote in news:SalmonEgg-
:

> I posted previously about how I prepare "sourdough" bread.
>
> If I bake on a regular basis, between two and six days, I let my
starter
> develop at room temperature. I use all of the starter for a bread
except
> for what sticks to the container. I then feed with water, sugar, and
> flour. I cannot rely on the starter's yeast so I use commercial yeast
> for leavening.
>
> If there is one problem I get, it is that I do not get as much
leavening
> as I would like even with commercial yeast. This makes me wonder if
the
> acidic starter tends to suppress the yeast's activity. While I intend
to
> carry out some experiments on my own, I would like to know, from
someone
> who does know, if acidity is important. Is that why some recipes call
> for the use of baking soda?
>
> Bill
>

I'll take a shot at these things.

First, my starter is sufficient to raise bread, literally through the
roof, and I use nothing but flour and water to do it, no sugar, no
commercial yeast.

Maybe you should try this regime:

Discard all but 10 grams of starter.
Add 15 grams of warm water and 15 grams of bread flour.
Stir it around a bit.
Put a lid on it.
Let it sit for 24 hours.

Repeat about five times. (five days.)



By this time, you should have a pretty powerful starter.

Second, for the bread.

Start with 30 grams of starter.
Add 60 grams each of flour and warm water.
Mix up, cover and let sit for 8-12 hours in a warm spot.
I put mine on the warm radiator.
It should be very active.

Add 150 grams of warm water and 150 grams of bread flour.
Mix well.
Remove 30 grams to use as the new starter.
Cover and let sit for 8-10 hours in a warm spot. (The radiator can gete
crowded.)

For bread.

You have 420 grams of 100% hydration starter. You can use it any way
you want.

I usually work with a final hydration of 58-62% and a starter to total
ingredients ratio of 30-40%, especially in the wintertime.

If you have trouble calculating the final contents of the dough, tell me
and I'll lay it out for you.

Third, acidity.

From Wing and Scott, "The Bread Builders."

"The optimum pH for lactobacilli is 5.0-5.5, while the minimum pH for
growth is 3.8. Lactic or acetic acid concentrations don't affect trhe
growth of lactobacilli very much if th epH of the dough is held
constant: this is the reason the buffering capacity of the flour is so
important for these organisms (a high buffering capacity in high-ash
flours means that the lactobacilli produce more acid before the critical
pH is reached.)

Yeasts are different: they don't mind low pH at all but are strongly
inhibited by acetic acid, and to a much lesser extent by lactic acid.
Sourdough yeasts such as C. milleri are exceptionally tolerant of acetic
acid."

From Peter Reinhart, "Bread Baker's Apprentice."

Snipped a lot....recapped.

S. cerevisiae, baker's yeast, functions well at 5-5.5 pH.

Wild yeast, S. exiguus, likes a pH of 3.5 to 4.0.

So if I had to guess, I['d say that you have let your starter get too
acid, too much acetic or lactic acid in the starter. the solution is to
refresh the thing frequently and use a very low percentage of holdover
starter. My regime uses a 1:3 (10 grams holdover and 30 grams added)
ratio. You might want to go to 1:5 or even higher. I also use a 1:1
water to flour ratio, 100% hydration. Maybe you should try a 60%
hydration, as the more liquid starters develop faster and can get acidic
pretty quickly.

Also from WIng and Scott, the optimum temperature for growth of L.san-
franciscensis (the lactobacillus most responsible for flavor in
sourdough bread) is right at 90F / 32C, while the optimum temperature
for growth of C. milleri is 82F / 28C.

However, the optimum temperaturs for fermentation in L.sanfran is 93F /
34C, while for C. milleri it is 86CF / 30C.

There is a good discussion on page 52 and following on the effect of
temperature and innoculation size on time to full population of
bacteria, and the effect of temperature on growth rates.


Fourth, I don't recall seeing a recipe for sourdough bread that calls
for baking soda, but then I don't get out much.

I hope this helps.

Barry

In article 54>,
Barry Harmon > wrote:

> I'll take a shot at these things.
>
> First, my starter is sufficient to raise bread, literally through the
> roof, and I use nothing but flour and water to do it, no sugar, no
> commercial yeast.
>
> Maybe you should try this regime:
>
> Discard all but 10 grams of starter.
> Add 15 grams of warm water and 15 grams of bread flour.
> Stir it around a bit.
> Put a lid on it.
> Let it sit for 24 hours.
>
> Repeat about five times. (five days.)
>
>
>
> By this time, you should have a pretty powerful starter.
>
> Second, for the bread.
>
> Start with 30 grams of starter.
> Add 60 grams each of flour and warm water.
> Mix up, cover and let sit for 8-12 hours in a warm spot.
> I put mine on the warm radiator.
> It should be very active.
>
> Add 150 grams of warm water and 150 grams of bread flour.
> Mix well.
> Remove 30 grams to use as the new starter.
> Cover and let sit for 8-10 hours in a warm spot. (The radiator can gete
> crowded.)
>
> For bread.
>
> You have 420 grams of 100% hydration starter. You can use it any way
> you want.
>
> I usually work with a final hydration of 58-62% and a starter to total
> ingredients ratio of 30-40%, especially in the wintertime.
>
> If you have trouble calculating the final contents of the dough, tell me
> and I'll lay it out for you.
>
> Third, acidity.
>
> From Wing and Scott, "The Bread Builders."
>
> "The optimum pH for lactobacilli is 5.0-5.5, while the minimum pH for
> growth is 3.8. Lactic or acetic acid concentrations don't affect trhe
> growth of lactobacilli very much if th epH of the dough is held
> constant: this is the reason the buffering capacity of the flour is so
> important for these organisms (a high buffering capacity in high-ash
> flours means that the lactobacilli produce more acid before the critical
> pH is reached.)
>
> Yeasts are different: they don't mind low pH at all but are strongly
> inhibited by acetic acid, and to a much lesser extent by lactic acid.
> Sourdough yeasts such as C. milleri are exceptionally tolerant of acetic
> acid."
>
> From Peter Reinhart, "Bread Baker's Apprentice."
>
> Snipped a lot....recapped.
>
> S. cerevisiae, baker's yeast, functions well at 5-5.5 pH.
>
> Wild yeast, S. exiguus, likes a pH of 3.5 to 4.0.
>
> So if I had to guess, I['d say that you have let your starter get too
> acid, too much acetic or lactic acid in the starter. the solution is to
> refresh the thing frequently and use a very low percentage of holdover
> starter. My regime uses a 1:3 (10 grams holdover and 30 grams added)
> ratio. You might want to go to 1:5 or even higher. I also use a 1:1
> water to flour ratio, 100% hydration. Maybe you should try a 60%
> hydration, as the more liquid starters develop faster and can get acidic
> pretty quickly.
>
> Also from WIng and Scott, the optimum temperature for growth of L.san-
> franciscensis (the lactobacillus most responsible for flavor in
> sourdough bread) is right at 90F / 32C, while the optimum temperature
> for growth of C. milleri is 82F / 28C.
>
> However, the optimum temperaturs for fermentation in L.sanfran is 93F /
> 34C, while for C. milleri it is 86CF / 30C.
>
> There is a good discussion on page 52 and following on the effect of
> temperature and innoculation size on time to full population of
> bacteria, and the effect of temperature on growth rates.
>
>
> Fourth, I don't recall seeing a recipe for sourdough bread that calls
> for baking soda, but then I don't get out much.
>
> I hope this helps.

Although fairly involved, I think your instructions are very helpful. I
hope to be able to follow them. The first thing to do is to actually
measure the pH. I have pH paper in the appropriate range.

Today, I prepared a rye bread using my usual sourdough procedure using
commercial yeast. It was a goof bread, but just did not quite leaven as
much as I would have liked.

Bill

--
An old man would be better off never having been born.

Salmon Egg wrote:
> I posted previously about how I prepare "sourdough" bread.
>
> If I bake on a regular basis, between two and six days, I let my
> starter develop at room temperature. I use all of the starter for a
If by that you mean you let it sit out, unfed for that long, then I'd
submit that your starter is "circling the drain" (ER parlance for 'leaving
us slowly..."...(:-o)!). In what I would assume is a "typical kitchen",
letting it sit out, after being fed, for overnight is about as long as you
want to go.

> bread except for what sticks to the container. I then feed with
> water, sugar, and flour. I cannot rely on the starter's yeast so I
> use commercial yeast for leavening.
Donno what you're doing my friend, but it's NEVER okay to feed a real
sourdough "starter" with sugar. Yeah, I'm sure something's growing...but
it's not clear just who or what that might be.

Like all living things, the yeast cells don't live forever. The
lactobacilli, eat other flour components, the sugars the yeast produce, as
well as dead yeast cells. In turn, the lactobacilli excrete a variety of
acid like materials (the source of the "sour" in sourdough). The
lactobacilli also secrete antibiotic cycloheximides which "sterilize" the
dough by killing "foreign" organisms (other yeast strains--wild or
domestic), bacteria, and so on... This keeps the mixture "pure" and allows
the "partner" yeast, which is resistant to their specific cycloheximides,
to flourish.

Like all communities, this complex culture follows a continuous cycle of
interrelated events. At any given point in the life cycle of this living
system; one organism or the other is either in rise, plateau, or decline.
Many factors effect these cycles; age, time, temperature, the flour,
hydration (water), the exact species of yeast, the exact species of
lactobacilli, and so on...

In order for a sourdough loaf to become true sourdough, you can't just grab
a slice of that culture and use it as you find it. You have to use the
culture at the very peak of the yeast cycle, as the lactobacilli cycle is
going on a rise and before the yeast goes into decline. If you want bread
that's more sour, then you'll want to add additional proofing time to the
basic description given here.

At the very early stages in a cultures' lifecycle the yeast is the main
active component. As the culture gains maturity, the primary initial food
(flour) is consumed. The yeast cells convert some of the carbohydrates and
starches to lactose (a form of sugar), excrete alcohol, and finally start
to die off from starvation. As that happens, the lactobacilli begin to
rise as they use the sugars, eat dead yeast cells, and generate the acids
that keep the culture clean and pure. That means that you have to be able
to predict and control the exact stage of development of your sourdough
culture. The best way that I found to do that is to establish a
consistent, repeatable methodology that ensures that each iteration of
usage will always be essentially the same.

> If there is one problem I get, it is that I do not get as much
> leavening as I would like even with commercial yeast. This makes me
> wonder if the acidic starter tends to suppress the yeast's activity.
> While I intend to carry out some experiments on my own, I would like
> to know, from someone who does know, if acidity is important. Is that
> why some recipes call for the use of baking soda?
Much like many others posting here, I too get what I would describe as
nearly explosive growth from my starter...but not if I treat it like you've
described above. You've got some things right and some things odd...so
it's hard to say what the end result might be. Other than due to time
constraints, it's never necessary to add yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)
to your starter. Properly cared for and fed, your starter s/b more than up
to the task you've given it. Provided, of course, that you've cared for it
properly and it is indeed a true sourdough culture...and not some monatomic
collection of flour lovin' "mutts"...(:-o)!

Some years back I wrote up a method of nursing a broken starter back to
health. You're of course most welcome to check it out
http://tinyurl.com/4f4qyka ... or not... As for any of the other recipes
on my webpages, you're welcome to steal whatever you want...call 'em your
own if you like...as long as you make good food for yourself and your
family, that will be repayment enough.

L8r all,
Dusty
--
"The ideals which have lighted my way, and time after time have given
me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and
Truth." - Albert Einstein

Barry Harmon wrote:
> Salmon Egg > wrote in news:SalmonEgg-
> :
>
>> I posted previously about how I prepare "sourdough" bread.
>>
>> If I bake on a regular basis, between two and six days, I let my
>> starter develop at room temperature. I use all of the starter for a
>> bread except for what sticks to the container. I then feed with
>> water, sugar, and flour. I cannot rely on the starter's yeast so I
>> use commercial yeast for leavening.
>>
>> If there is one problem I get, it is that I do not get as much
>> leavening as I would like even with commercial yeast. This makes me
>> wonder if the acidic starter tends to suppress the yeast's activity.
>> While I intend to carry out some experiments on my own, I would like
>> to know, from someone who does know, if acidity is important. Is
>> that why some recipes call for the use of baking soda?
....
> I'll take a shot at these things.
>
> First, my starter is sufficient to raise bread, literally through the
> roof, and I use nothing but flour and water to do it, no sugar, no
> commercial yeast.
Excellent! Whatever you're doing...it's just as it should be...

> Maybe you should try this regime:
>
> Discard all but 10 grams of starter.
> Add 15 grams of warm water and 15 grams of bread flour.
> Stir it around a bit.
> Put a lid on it.
> Let it sit for 24 hours.
>
> Repeat about five times. (five days.)
An excellent sequence, Barry!

> By this time, you should have a pretty powerful starter.
>
> Second, for the bread.
>
> Start with 30 grams of starter.
> Add 60 grams each of flour and warm water.
> Mix up, cover and let sit for 8-12 hours in a warm spot.
> I put mine on the warm radiator.
> It should be very active.
True enough...but I question the wisdom of putting it on a "warm radiator".
How warm? Much over about 95F or so, and it's a death sentence for the
LB's in your SD culture. I have a graph at the bottom of this page:
http://tinyurl.com/4f4qyka, that lays out the temperatures and how they
affect our critters. Maybe it can shed some light on things... I've found
that pretty well wherever I'm comfortable, my SD critters are too. So, I
don't give 'em any special warming or other treatment. They just sit out
on the counter. Now, if you live somewhere where your kitchen is unheated
or excessively cool, then putting them to some warmth is an both an
excellent as well as necessary accommodation.

....
> Fourth, I don't recall seeing a recipe for sourdough bread that calls
> for baking soda, but then I don't get out much.
Heh, heh... The only one I know is when you're making SD pancakes. Using
the baking soda gives you some 'instant poof', and takes the sour bite out
of them (seems to go better with syrups and fruits that way). You can read
all about how I do it he http://tinyurl.com/yfwa72l. Please feel free
to vary and experiment from there...and post any new successes here for all
to read.

L8r all,
Dusty
--
"The ideals which have lighted my way, and time after time have given
me new courage to face life cheerfully, have been Kindness, Beauty, and
Truth." - Albert Einstein

"BakerBoy" > wrote in
m:

> Barry Harmon wrote:
>> Salmon Egg > wrote in news:SalmonEgg-
>> :
>>
>>> I posted previously about how I prepare "sourdough" bread.
>>>
>>> If I bake on a regular basis, between two and six days, I let my
>>> starter develop at room temperature. I use all of the starter for a
>>> bread except for what sticks to the container. I then feed with
>>> water, sugar, and flour. I cannot rely on the starter's yeast so I
>>> use commercial yeast for leavening.
>>>
>>> If there is one problem I get, it is that I do not get as much
>>> leavening as I would like even with commercial yeast. This makes me
>>> wonder if the acidic starter tends to suppress the yeast's activity.
>>> While I intend to carry out some experiments on my own, I would like
>>> to know, from someone who does know, if acidity is important. Is
>>> that why some recipes call for the use of baking soda?
> ...
>> I'll take a shot at these things.
>>
>> First, my starter is sufficient to raise bread, literally through the
>> roof, and I use nothing but flour and water to do it, no sugar, no
>> commercial yeast.
> Excellent! Whatever you're doing...it's just as it should be...
>
>> Maybe you should try this regime:
>>
>> Discard all but 10 grams of starter.
>> Add 15 grams of warm water and 15 grams of bread flour.
>> Stir it around a bit.
>> Put a lid on it.
>> Let it sit for 24 hours.
>>
>> Repeat about five times. (five days.)
> An excellent sequence, Barry!
>
>> By this time, you should have a pretty powerful starter.
>>
>> Second, for the bread.
>>
>> Start with 30 grams of starter.
>> Add 60 grams each of flour and warm water.
>> Mix up, cover and let sit for 8-12 hours in a warm spot.
>> I put mine on the warm radiator.
>> It should be very active.
> True enough...but I question the wisdom of putting it on a "warm
> radiator". How warm? Much over about 95F or so, and it's a death
> sentence for the LB's in your SD culture. I have a graph at the
> bottom of this page: http://tinyurl.com/4f4qyka, that lays out the
> temperatures and how they affect our critters. Maybe it can shed some
> light on things... I've found that pretty well wherever I'm
> comfortable, my SD critters are too. So, I don't give 'em any special
> warming or other treatment. They just sit out on the counter. Now,
> if you live somewhere where your kitchen is unheated or excessively
> cool, then putting them to some warmth is an both an excellent as well
> as necessary accommodation.
>
> ...
>> Fourth, I don't recall seeing a recipe for sourdough bread that
>> calls for baking soda, but then I don't get out much.
> Heh, heh... The only one I know is when you're making SD pancakes.
> Using the baking soda gives you some 'instant poof', and takes the
> sour bite out of them (seems to go better with syrups and fruits that
> way). You can read all about how I do it he
> http://tinyurl.com/yfwa72l. Please feel free to vary and experiment
> from there...and post any new successes here for all to read.
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty


Lactobacilli do best at 90F / 32C, I measured the temp with a thermometer
and it is mid to high 80s, so there'

SInce yeast does best in the mid 80s, this is the best compromise I could
strike.

I have the graphs that Michael Ganzle did for "Bread Builders," which agree
with my observations. Since the kitchen is cool until I start to bake, as
you say, it's almost necessary to put the thing on the rsadiator to get any
activity out of it in a reasonable time. (Or at all, if the truth be
told.)

I've labored long and hard to get my sourdough to where it works welland
consistently, and I wasted a lot of flour and water doing it, so it's good
to hear someone say I'm doing it right

As I said, that is my process. Others may have different ways of doing the
same thing, but this works for me in my kitchen. Of course it's not "mt"
process, since I cribbed it from Wing and Scott in their book "The Bread
Builders." What a great book!


Barry

On 1/27/2011 5:34 PM, Barry Harmon wrote:
> > wrote in
> m:
>
>> Barry Harmon wrote:
>>> Salmon > wrote in news:SalmonEgg-
>>> :



Starters can be different in their response to environmental factors,
however my comments apply to most.
Some general comments:

It is wrong to conflate the optimum temperatures for yeast and Lb growth
with the optimum temperatures for making bread or
activating/growing/storing starter.

You may very well want to have different temperatures for your storage
leaven, for elaborating the starter, for bulk fermentation and the final
fermentation.

Optimum temperatures can vary with hydration, type of flour, or end product.

A workable compromise is that which Dusty suggested. Keep the storage
leaven refrigerated and elaborate the starter and ferment the dough at
room temperature. Let the timing for the stages vary with variable room
temperature.

To the OP. You are getting just what I would expect with a thin starter
culture left out for long periods of time without frequent feeding.
Thin culture, 100% to 160% needs to be feed every 4 to 12 hours
depending on room temperature. Usually every six hours on average or
the result will be sick, acid culture that doesn't work very well.

Barry's suggested remedy should restore your culture to health.
However, it then needs frequent feedings or refrigeration to retain the
health.

To Barry. Your starter may do just fine on your radiator. However I
suspect that many will find that growing their starter overnight on a
radiator will sicken if not destroy their culture. My starter grows
just fine overnight at room temperature. Even winter night temperatures
in the 60's F.

"The Bread Builders" by Wing and Scott is a fine book, no recipes (well
one for 168 kilos of dough) but a fine book anyway. It was the first
book on natural leavens that I read that was not full of lies and
misinformation. In my copy (April 1999 1st printing) on page 56 is a
side bar titled "Routine Care of a Leaven", Wing recommends there that
leaven refreshments be done at a temperature of 70 to 75°F.

You can look it up. I think it better advice than the radiator procedure.

Regards,

Charles

chefcdp > wrote in
m:

> On 1/27/2011 5:34 PM, Barry Harmon wrote:
>> > wrote in
>> m:
>>
>>> Barry Harmon wrote:
>>>> Salmon > wrote in news:SalmonEgg-
>>>> :
>
>
>
> Starters can be different in their response to environmental factors,
> however my comments apply to most.
> Some general comments:
>
> It is wrong to conflate the optimum temperatures for yeast and Lb
> growth with the optimum temperatures for making bread or
> activating/growing/storing starter.

******* All I was pointing out was that there is a difference between
what is optimal for yeast and what is optinal for lacto.

The obvious tradeoff has to take into consideration the development of
the flavor from the flour, too.


>
> You may very well want to have different temperatures for your storage
> leaven, for elaborating the starter, for bulk fermentation and the
> final fermentation.
>
> Optimum temperatures can vary with hydration, type of flour, or end
> product.
>
> A workable compromise is that which Dusty suggested. Keep the storage
> leaven refrigerated and elaborate the starter and ferment the dough at
> room temperature. Let the timing for the stages vary with variable
> room temperature.
>
> To the OP. You are getting just what I would expect with a thin
> starter culture left out for long periods of time without frequent
> feeding. Thin culture, 100% to 160% needs to be feed every 4 to 12
> hours depending on room temperature. Usually every six hours on
> average or the result will be sick, acid culture that doesn't work
> very well.
>
> Barry's suggested remedy should restore your culture to health.
> However, it then needs frequent feedings or refrigeration to retain
> the health.
>
> To Barry. Your starter may do just fine on your radiator. However I
> suspect that many will find that growing their starter overnight on a
> radiator will sicken if not destroy their culture. My starter grows
> just fine overnight at room temperature. Even winter night
> temperatures in the 60's F.
>

******* I store the starter at room temp. The only time I put things on
the radiator, and it is a cold radiator, is when I am making the bread,
since the kitchen is about 70 most of the time. And things work
fine,thank you very much. I refresh the levain every 24 hours.

> "The Bread Builders" by Wing and Scott is a fine book, no recipes
> (well one for 168 kilos of dough) but a fine book anyway. It was the
> first book on natural leavens that I read that was not full of lies
> and misinformation. In my copy (April 1999 1st printing) on page 56 is
> a side bar titled "Routine Care of a Leaven", Wing recommends there
> that leaven refreshments be done at a temperature of 70 to 75°F.

******* Yeah, I took their 160 kilo process and scaled it down to make
3-4 pounds of dough. It's the first process I could make sense of.
Most of the things I've read are a little short of "and then a miracle
happens."

I've never been able to reconcile the 70-75F (21-24C) as being optimal
so neither yeast or lacto is favored, when the optimum temp for lacto is
32-33C and for yeast 28C. (Page 228) A compromise would seem to me to
be in the middle, or around 30C, or 86F. When considering only the two
components, yeast and lacto. The only justification for the lower
figure is what when Ganzle says that at 20C the generation time is
doubled for both components.

>
> You can look it up. I think it better advice than the radiator
> procedure.

******* Well, mine works fine as is, the confusion was in when what goes
on the radiator. Guess there's a difference of opinion there.

>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>


Barry


>
>
>