Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. My
attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
collective experience once again.

As a reminder, I'm using this method:
1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
and water
4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready

This has been repeated for nearly 2 weeks now. The starter appears
lifeless, and doesn't seem to be rising at all between feedings.
Every evening when I go to feed it there is a layer of hooch on top
which I stir back in.

In many ways it resembles the "barely living" definition in the
Starter Doctor FAQ, except without the gelatinous feel - it actually
has a smooth pancake batter consistency. As a reminder, here's what
that definition says:

C. Barely Living: Visible bubbles exist, but the starter has no
frothy layer of bubbles on the surface of the starter. Also, bubbles
beneath the surface are not plentiful. It's likely that a layer of
hooch, a benign greyish or yellowish, mostly clear, layer of water
and alcohol, formed on top of the starter even though it was not
proofed for more than 12 hours. Stirring the starter with a wooden
spoon, then drawing the spoon out of the starter and examining the
starter clinging to the back of the spoon shows only a few bubbles in
the starter. Note that one of the key symptoms of starter in this
stage is the layer of hooch which mysteriously appears "early," (
vibrant, fresh starter usually requires 24 to 48 hours of proofing
before any hooch appears. Hooch appearing after being refrigerated
is another story, so ignore refrigerator hooch for now. Other
symptoms of this stage include slow rise times ( 3-6 or more hours to
raise a bread recipe to double (if it ever does double). Second
risings are quite often unsuccessful and the dough appears 'dead'.
The dough may have a dead feel to it and tend to flatten out by
itself while rising, even though you kneaded in enough flour and the
gluten was well formed. The starter itself may also have a
gelatinous feel to it, rather than maintaining a smoother,
pancake-batter-like consistency. Starter in this stage has not
stabilized the symbiotic relationship among the microorganisms
present, i.e. the ratio of yeast and the various lactobacilli has not
stabilized and the starter is not ready to use (except for pancakes).

Has anyone come across this before? I'm wondering whether it's
temperature related. I live in Scotland and although we have heating
in our house it's not super-warm. Are my starter's symptoms
consistent with a starter that isn't getting enough heat?

Thanks in advance

Simon

Simon wrote:
> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. My
> attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
> be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
> collective experience once again.
>
> As a reminder, I'm using this method:
> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
> and water
> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready

It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.

Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>
>> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. My
>> attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
>> be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
>> collective experience once again.
>>
>> As a reminder, I'm using this method:
>> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
>> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
>> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
>> and water
>> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>>
>
> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>
> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
> at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>
>
Sure!
http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html


S

On Mar 10, 6:24*am, Sam > wrote:
> Brian Mailman wrote:
> > Simon wrote:
>
> >> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. *My
> >> attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
> >> be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
> >> collective experience once again.
>
> >> As a reminder, I'm using this method:
> >> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
> >> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
> >> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
> >> and water
> >> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>
> > It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>
> > Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
> > at room temperature for a week. *LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>
> Sure!http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>
> S

But given that I've been doing the 24 hour thing for 2 weeks now
without success perhaps it's time to try something different and just
leave it for a week. I checked it this morning (about 12 hours after
feeding) and it had a thin layer of hooch on top and no signs of any
bubbles.

Simon

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.8.1268202262.21159.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>> Simon wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. My
>>> attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
>>> be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
>>> collective experience once again.
>>>
>>> As a reminder, I'm using this method:
>>> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
>>> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
>>> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
>>> and water
>>> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>>>
>>
>> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>>
>> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
>> at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>>
>>
> Sure!
> http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>
>
> S
>

Am I missing something? Brian and Samartha's tutorial methods seem not to
mesh........

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 05:48:28 -0500, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

>
>"Sam" > wrote in message
>news:mailman.8.1268202262.21159.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>> Simon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question. My
>>>> attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I don't seem to
>>>> be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at the mercy of your
>>>> collective experience once again.
>>>>
>>>> As a reminder, I'm using this method:
>>>> 1. Start with 50g flour and 50g water
>>>> 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour and water
>>>> 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g each of flour
>>>> and water
>>>> 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>>>
>>> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
>>> at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>>>
>>>
>> Sure!
>> http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>>
>>
>> S
>>
>
>Am I missing something? Brian and Samartha's tutorial methods seem not to
>mesh........


And no tropical fruit, either. Tsk.

Boron

On Mar 8, 5:50*am, Simon > wrote:
....
> *Are my starter's symptoms
> consistent with a starter that isn't getting enough heat?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Simon

How much heat are you giving it? Usually one can get away with more
time in place of heat, but I don't know if that holds true when the
starter isn't active to begin with.

I consulted Sam's web site when first delving into sourdough and I had
immediate results (i.e., success on the first go around of starting my
own culture).

Matt

Simon wrote:
>>>>
>>> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>>>
>>> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
>>> at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>>>
>> Sure!http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>>
>> S
>>
>
> But given that I've been doing the 24 hour thing for 2 weeks now
> without success perhaps it's time to try something different and just
> leave it for a week. I checked it this morning (about 12 hours after
> feeding) and it had a thin layer of hooch on top and no signs of any
> bubbles.
>
> Simon
>

Well, something's off with your attempts.

The method I described/used does constant feedings without reducing.
Reason for doing it because there was/is so much <censored> going on
with SD starter growing.
My opinion on the two week thing goes in the same category. It may work
but is not necessary. Pineapple/grape/potato/moon phase/chanting can
work as well and be claimed as the holey grail of sourdough growing/book
writing since fermentation just happens naturally.

What you do is not too much off from that (constant feeding) method.

Main sources for failure can be:

a - quick oversouring with no activity
b - lack of organisms/growing for other reasons

Remedy for a:

If you can't test for sourness (don't dare to taste it when you don't
have a pH meter or testing strips at hand - most likely), split the
amount, continue with the regular method with one part and use a small
amount, something like 1/10 - or a teaspoon to start a strongly reduced
mixture and continue.

Remedy for b:

You have not (or I missed it) mentioned what kind of flour you use, what
is your water source and what is your approximate temperature you are
running this. The reason the behavior you are seeing can be found there.

Maybe you can elaborate on that.

If you have hooch, alcoholic smell there is fermentation, just not the
right ratio of organisms. I think that's a good sign.

Sam

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1268230095.21159.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> My opinion on the two week thing goes in the same category. It may work
> but is not necessary. Pineapple/grape/potato/moon phase/chanting can work
> as well and be claimed as the holey grail of sourdough growing/book
> writing since fermentation just happens naturally.


chanting! I gotta try chanting! the next BIG thing, and Samartha said it
will work!!

O E O, SOUR...DOUGH
O E O, SOUR...DOUGH

hutchndi wrote:

>
> "Sam" > wrote in message
>
news:mailman.9.1268230095.21159.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>> My opinion on the two week thing goes in the same category. It may work
>> but is not necessary. Pineapple/grape/potato/moon phase/chanting can work
>> as well and be claimed as the holey grail of sourdough growing/book
>> writing since fermentation just happens naturally.
>
>
> chanting! I gotta try chanting! the next BIG thing, and Samartha said it
> will work!!
>
> O E O, SOUR...DOUGH
> O E O, SOUR...DOUGH

No, no, no. You need this special mantra:

Baise-moi dans le cul avec une baguette!

"Maximust" > wrote in message
...
> hutchndi wrote:
>
>>
>> "Sam" > wrote in message
>>
> news:mailman.9.1268230095.21159.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>>> My opinion on the two week thing goes in the same category. It may work
>>> but is not necessary. Pineapple/grape/potato/moon phase/chanting can
>>> work
>>> as well and be claimed as the holey grail of sourdough growing/book
>>> writing since fermentation just happens naturally.
>>
>>
>> chanting! I gotta try chanting! the next BIG thing, and Samartha said it
>> will work!!
>>
>> O E O, SOUR...DOUGH
>> O E O, SOUR...DOUGH
>
> No, no, no. You need this special mantra:
>
> Baise-moi dans le cul avec une baguette!
>
>
>

Maximust!
If the google translation is correct, afterwards you can use it to stir your
starter!

On Mar 10, 2:08*pm, Sam > wrote:
> Simon wrote:
>
> >>> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to ferment.
>
> >>> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley covered,
> >>> at room temperature for a week. *LEAVE IT ALONE during that time.
>
> >> Sure!http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>
> >> S
>
> > But given that I've been doing the 24 hour thing for 2 weeks now
> > without success perhaps it's time to try something different and just
> > leave it for a week. *I checked it this morning (about 12 hours after
> > feeding) and it had a thin layer of hooch on top and no signs of any
> > bubbles.
>
> > Simon
>
> Well, something's off with your attempts.
>
> The method I described/used does constant feedings without reducing. *
> Reason *for doing it because there was/is so much *<censored> *going on
> with *SD starter growing.
> My opinion on the two week thing goes in the same category. It may work
> but is not necessary. Pineapple/grape/potato/moon phase/chanting can
> work as well and be claimed as the holey grail of sourdough growing/book
> writing since fermentation just happens naturally.
>
> What you do is not too much off from that (constant feeding) method.
>
> Main sources for failure can be:
>
> a - quick oversouring with no activity
> b - lack of organisms/growing for other reasons
>
> Remedy for a:
>
> If you can't test for sourness (don't dare to taste it when you don't
> have a pH meter or testing strips at hand - most likely), split the
> amount, continue with the regular method with one part and use a small
> amount, something like 1/10 - or a teaspoon to start a strongly reduced
> mixture and continue.
>
> Remedy for b:
>
> You have not (or I missed it) mentioned what kind of flour you use, what
> is your water source and what is your approximate temperature you are
> running this. The reason the behavior you are seeing can be found there.
>
> Maybe you can elaborate on that.
>
> If you have hooch, alcoholic smell there is fermentation, just not the
> right ratio of organisms. I think that's a good sign.
>
> Sam

Hi Sam

You're completely right of course - not all waters and flours are the
same and I really should have included these details!

I'm using ordinary tap water because the tap water here in Edinburgh
is nice and soft. I take it from the main riser in the house so it
doesn't pass through any of the old lead pipes.

The flour I'm using in Marriage's organic - I started off with
wholemeal for the first 4-5 feedings and then switched to the white
stoneground stuff.

I'm afraid that I don't konw the temperature in the house, but I would
guess that it varies between about about 13 and 18 degrees centrigrade
over 24 hours. Having said that, spring is here now and this part of
the world is warming up remarkably quickly - I went for an early
morning bike ride today and didn't see any ice patches on the road
(althought there is still snow in the fields). The starter lives in a
cupboard in the core of the house in order to maximise warmth and
minimise temperature variations, so I would guess that it sits at a
pretty constant 15-17 degrees or so, maybe a little warmer.

Does that help?

Simon

On Mar 11, 8:14*am, Simon > wrote:
> pretty constant 15-17 degrees or so, maybe a little warmer.
>
> Does that help?
>
> Simon

Considering nothing else, I think that is too cold. In the winter here
in New England I use the oven light method: oven door closed, light
on. Aim for at least 25 degrees.
Matt

Simon wrote:
> Hi Sam
>
> You're completely right of course - not all waters and flours are the
> same and I really should have included these details!
>
> I'm using ordinary tap water because the tap water here in Edinburgh
> is nice and soft. I take it from the main riser in the house so it
> doesn't pass through any of the old lead pipes.
>
> The flour I'm using in Marriage's organic - I started off with
> wholemeal for the first 4-5 feedings and then switched to the white
> stoneground stuff.
>
> I'm afraid that I don't konw the temperature in the house, but I would
> guess that it varies between about about 13 and 18 degrees centrigrade
> over 24 hours. Having said that, spring is here now and this part of
> the world is warming up remarkably quickly - I went for an early
> morning bike ride today and didn't see any ice patches on the road
> (althought there is still snow in the fields). The starter lives in a
> cupboard in the core of the house in order to maximise warmth and
> minimise temperature variations, so I would guess that it sits at a
> pretty constant 15-17 degrees or so, maybe a little warmer.
>
> Does that help?
>
>
Temperature is a factor - you should be much higher than what you describe.

If you look there, how much longer less optimal temperatures take with
an established sourdough:

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058

And you don't have an established sourdough yet.

Water - well, if it's from a municipal water supply, it can be
chlorinated - let it sit for a while to get that out and then use it.

Flour - full grain rye is definitely a winner over anything else.

What about sourness of what you have -any discoveries in that direction?
You mentioned smells - fermentation surely is happening.

I think your main factor on missing activity is temperature.

Sam

Thanks for your replies everyone - I was coming to the same
conclusion.

Not sure if the oven light method will work with our oven but I'll
have a look over the weekend and give it a try.

hutchndi wrote:
> "Sam" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.8.1268202262.21159.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>
>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>> Simon wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the helpful responses to my previous question.
>>>> My attempt to grow a starter form scratch continues, but I
>>>> don't seem to be getting anywhere so wanted to throw myself at
>>>> the mercy of your collective experience once again.
>>>>
>>>> As a reminder, I'm using this method: 1. Start with 50g flour
>>>> and 50g water 2. After 24 hours add another 50g each of flour
>>>> and water 3. After 24 hours throw half away and add another 50g
>>>> each of flour and water 4. Repeat 3 until the starter is ready
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not doing anything because you're not giving it time to
>>> ferment.
>>>
>>> Mix the (whole-grain) flour with water and let it sit, looseley
>>> covered, at room temperature for a week. LEAVE IT ALONE during
>>> that time.
>>>
>>>
>> Sure! http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html
>>
>>
>> S
>>
>
> Am I missing something? Brian and Samartha's tutorial methods seem
> not to mesh........
>

It's true. I just simply can't see myself taking credit for what
nature's going to do by itself.

B/