I have apparently been successful in making my very first starter. These
are the basic instructions I used:
http://sourdough.com/blog/sourdom/be...tarter-scratch

Today was day 8. For the past 3 days the starter has been almost as
vigourous as a sponge made with instant yeast, The starter more than
triples in 12 hours. I started feeding every 12 hours, but left it for
24 hours this last time.

I am planning on baking with it this weekend - day 12 or 13. The starter
is at 100% hydration with 30% rye and 70 white flour.

I have been baking a whole wheat bread using instant yeast and a 200g,
100% hydration poolish. I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
concerned with other factors?

I also bake Peter Reinhart's Napoleana pizza crust. How would I convert
that to use a starter?

Finally, would it be better to make a recipe designed for a starter as
my first loaf? What would you recommend? Obvioously, this is a wide open
question, but I guess I am looking for something that will seem familiar
to me, but that uses a starter instead of yeast.

Hope that is clear, and thanks for the comments,
Harvey

"eclipsme" > wrote in message
...
> I have been baking a whole wheat bread using instant yeast and a 200g,
> 100% hydration poolish. I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
> grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
> concerned with other factors?

There are lots of recipes in the RFS archives and otherwheres online for
whole wheat and other sourdough breads and you can always try one of those ,
but if you are comfortable with the yeast recipe that you are using and you
have a good active starter, give it a shot and see how it performs
differently for yourself, it's the best way to learn. It is going to raise
your bread no doubt, though perhaps at a different pace. Ferment your
poolish to the point that it looks like what you are used to and go from
there, and please post your results!

hutchndi

On 1/5/2010 7:04 PM, hutchndi wrote:
>
> "eclipsme" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have been baking a whole wheat bread using instant yeast and a 200g,
>> 100% hydration poolish. I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
>> grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
>> concerned with other factors?
>
> There are lots of recipes in the RFS archives and otherwheres online for
> whole wheat and other sourdough breads and you can always try one of
> those , but if you are comfortable with the yeast recipe that you are
> using and you have a good active starter, give it a shot and see how it
> performs differently for yourself, it's the best way to learn. It is
> going to raise your bread no doubt, though perhaps at a different pace.
> Ferment your poolish to the point that it looks like what you are used
> to and go from there, and please post your results!
>
> hutchndi

Thanks for the pointers and the advice. I started the starter on a lark,
and now that I am successful I've got to bake something! I am also just
seeing that Reinhart's book Bread Baker's assistant has a chapter on
sourdough, so I am starting to read that as well.

Thanks,
Harvey

"eclipsme" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/5/2010 7:04 PM, hutchndi wrote:
>>
>> "eclipsme" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I have been baking a whole wheat bread using instant yeast and a 200g,
>>> 100% hydration poolish. I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
>>> grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
>>> concerned with other factors?
>>
>> There are lots of recipes in the RFS archives and otherwheres online for
>> whole wheat and other sourdough breads and you can always try one of
>> those , but if you are comfortable with the yeast recipe that you are
>> using and you have a good active starter, give it a shot and see how it
>> performs differently for yourself, it's the best way to learn. It is
>> going to raise your bread no doubt, though perhaps at a different pace.
>> Ferment your poolish to the point that it looks like what you are used
>> to and go from there, and please post your results!
>>
>> hutchndi
>
> Thanks for the pointers and the advice. I started the starter on a lark,
> and now that I am successful I've got to bake something! I am also just
> seeing that Reinhart's book Bread Baker's assistant has a chapter on
> sourdough, so I am starting to read that as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Harvey

And don't forget to post a link to some bread pics.....we are all just as
excited as you are!

On 1/5/2010 7:31 PM, hutchndi wrote:
>
> "eclipsme" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 1/5/2010 7:04 PM, hutchndi wrote:
>>>
>>> "eclipsme" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> I have been baking a whole wheat bread using instant yeast and a 200g,
>>>> 100% hydration poolish. I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
>>>> grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
>>>> concerned with other factors?
>>>
>>> There are lots of recipes in the RFS archives and otherwheres online for
>>> whole wheat and other sourdough breads and you can always try one of
>>> those , but if you are comfortable with the yeast recipe that you are
>>> using and you have a good active starter, give it a shot and see how it
>>> performs differently for yourself, it's the best way to learn. It is
>>> going to raise your bread no doubt, though perhaps at a different pace.
>>> Ferment your poolish to the point that it looks like what you are used
>>> to and go from there, and please post your results!
>>>
>>> hutchndi
>>
>> Thanks for the pointers and the advice. I started the starter on a
>> lark, and now that I am successful I've got to bake something! I am
>> also just seeing that Reinhart's book Bread Baker's assistant has a
>> chapter on sourdough, so I am starting to read that as well.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Harvey
>
> And don't forget to post a link to some bread pics.....we are all just
> as excited as you are!

You don't need to ask twice! ;-0

>
> I also bake Peter Reinhart's Napoleana pizza crust. How would I convert
> that to use a starter?
>
> Hope that is clear, and thanks for the comments,
> Harvey

I started my own started two years ago with which I have baked much
bread. A few months ago my friends and I got into pizza making, and
naturally I figured I would use my starter to make the dough. After
some trial and error I settled on almost the same recipe* as I use to
make bread, the only difference being the use of whole wheat instead
of the whole grain rye. I use a bit more starter for added flavor, and
I will work with a slightly wetter dough because I don't need it to
maintain shape as a loaf, but otherwise nothing changes. Still takes
about 8 hours for the initial rise (my house is a little chilly),
after which I stretch and fold, cut into 300 - 350 gram pieces and re-
knead into nice balls to rest for up to two hours before pizza time.

The dough is just stretchy enough to handle some tossing, though
lacking the elasticity of "whiter" dough. We cook in a 500+ degree
oven, either on large pizza stones or split fire brick. We have also
cooked on split fire brick inside a gas grill which reaches 700
degrees, but (I think) the lack of ventilation makes wetter toppings
(still working the kinks out of that method). I may build a wood-fired
brick oven this spring.

*My starter is water and rye. For the dough I use about a cup of
counter culture, 50/50 unbleached white bread flour/whole wheat, salt
and water for about a 1400 gram mass. I tried 50/50 whole wheat bread
flour/whole wheat, but the dough, while delicious, wasn't very easy to
work with and came out a little too hard at the edges.

Good luck.
Matt

On 1/6/2010 9:48 AM, Matt Fitz wrote:
>>
>> I also bake Peter Reinhart's Napoleana pizza crust. How would I convert
>> that to use a starter?
>>
>> Hope that is clear, and thanks for the comments,
>> Harvey
>
> I started my own started two years ago with which I have baked much
> bread. A few months ago my friends and I got into pizza making, and
> naturally I figured I would use my starter to make the dough. After
> some trial and error I settled on almost the same recipe* as I use to
> make bread, the only difference being the use of whole wheat instead
> of the whole grain rye. I use a bit more starter for added flavor, and
> I will work with a slightly wetter dough because I don't need it to
> maintain shape as a loaf, but otherwise nothing changes. Still takes
> about 8 hours for the initial rise (my house is a little chilly),
> after which I stretch and fold, cut into 300 - 350 gram pieces and re-
> knead into nice balls to rest for up to two hours before pizza time.
>
> The dough is just stretchy enough to handle some tossing, though
> lacking the elasticity of "whiter" dough. We cook in a 500+ degree
> oven, either on large pizza stones or split fire brick. We have also
> cooked on split fire brick inside a gas grill which reaches 700
> degrees, but (I think) the lack of ventilation makes wetter toppings
> (still working the kinks out of that method). I may build a wood-fired
> brick oven this spring.
>
> *My starter is water and rye. For the dough I use about a cup of
> counter culture, 50/50 unbleached white bread flour/whole wheat, salt
> and water for about a 1400 gram mass. I tried 50/50 whole wheat bread
> flour/whole wheat, but the dough, while delicious, wasn't very easy to
> work with and came out a little too hard at the edges.
>
> Good luck.
> Matt

Hi Matt,

Though I normally prefer whole grain breads, I think the difference in
flavor between a whole wheat (I use white whole wheat, are you familiar
with it?) and white flour pizza dough, keeps me in the white flour
crowd, but this may just be the novelty of working with white flour for
me. Your idea of baking in a gas grill is an interesting one, though. I
wholeheartedly urge you on in your oven building endeavor. The
difference in flavor and quality I got from baking hot in my friend's
pizza oven and my 500 degree oven was remarkable!

Harvey

On Jan 6, 10:38*am, eclipsme > wrote:
> On 1/6/2010 9:48 AM, Matt Fitz wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >> I also bake Peter Reinhart's Napoleana pizza crust. How would I convert
> >> that to use a starter?
>
> >> Hope that is clear, and thanks for the comments,
> >> Harvey
>
> > I started my own started two years ago with which I have baked much
> > bread. A few months ago my friends and I got into pizza making, and
> > naturally I figured I would use my starter to make the dough. After
> > some trial and error I settled on almost the same recipe* as I use to
> > make bread, the only difference being the use of whole wheat instead
> > of the whole grain rye. I use a bit more starter for added flavor, and
> > I will work with a slightly wetter dough because I don't need it to
> > maintain shape as a loaf, but otherwise nothing changes. Still takes
> > about 8 hours for the initial rise (my house is a little chilly),
> > after which I stretch and fold, cut into 300 - 350 gram pieces and re-
> > knead into nice balls to rest for up to two hours before pizza time.
>
> > The dough is just stretchy enough to handle some tossing, though
> > lacking the elasticity of "whiter" dough. We cook in a 500+ degree
> > oven, either on large pizza stones or split fire brick. We have also
> > cooked on split fire brick inside a gas grill which reaches 700
> > degrees, but (I think) the lack of ventilation makes wetter toppings
> > (still working the kinks out of that method). I may build a wood-fired
> > brick oven this spring.
>
> > *My starter is water and rye. For the dough I use about a cup of
> > counter culture, 50/50 unbleached white bread flour/whole wheat, salt
> > and water for about a 1400 gram mass. I tried 50/50 whole wheat bread
> > flour/whole wheat, but the dough, while delicious, wasn't very easy to
> > work with and came out a little too hard at the edges.
>
> > Good luck.
> > Matt
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Though I normally prefer whole grain breads, I think the difference in
> flavor between a whole wheat (I use white whole wheat, are you familiar
> with it?) and white flour pizza dough, keeps me in the white flour
> crowd, but this may just be the novelty of working with white flour for
> me. Your idea of baking in a gas grill is an interesting one, though. I
> wholeheartedly urge you on in your oven building endeavor. The
> difference in flavor and quality I got from baking hot in my friend's
> pizza oven and my 500 degree oven was remarkable!
>
> Harvey

While I agree white flour yields an ethereal texture and "chew" in
well made pizza crust, I like the flavor and nutrition profile of the
whole wheat. My formerly all white flour friends now insist that I
make whole wheat dough for our pizza making, and we only buy the white
dough (from a local joint with very good dough) as a backup and for
dessert pizzas.

The gas grill idea has merit for apartment and condo dwellers, but the
impetus was actually about keeping the kitchen cool and smoke free
during a crowded party. I would never suggest it as a viable
alternative to a brick oven.

I've seen white whole wheat but never used it. Can it make as chewy a
crust, or does it yield softer, fluffier crust?

Matt

On 1/6/2010 2:52 PM, Matt Fitz wrote:
> On Jan 6, 10:38 am, > wrote:
>> On 1/6/2010 9:48 AM, Matt Fitz wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> I also bake Peter Reinhart's Napoleana pizza crust. How would I convert
>>>> that to use a starter?
>>
>>>> Hope that is clear, and thanks for the comments,
>>>> Harvey
>>
>>> I started my own started two years ago with which I have baked much
>>> bread. A few months ago my friends and I got into pizza making, and
>>> naturally I figured I would use my starter to make the dough. After
>>> some trial and error I settled on almost the same recipe* as I use to
>>> make bread, the only difference being the use of whole wheat instead
>>> of the whole grain rye. I use a bit more starter for added flavor, and
>>> I will work with a slightly wetter dough because I don't need it to
>>> maintain shape as a loaf, but otherwise nothing changes. Still takes
>>> about 8 hours for the initial rise (my house is a little chilly),
>>> after which I stretch and fold, cut into 300 - 350 gram pieces and re-
>>> knead into nice balls to rest for up to two hours before pizza time.
>>
>>> The dough is just stretchy enough to handle some tossing, though
>>> lacking the elasticity of "whiter" dough. We cook in a 500+ degree
>>> oven, either on large pizza stones or split fire brick. We have also
>>> cooked on split fire brick inside a gas grill which reaches 700
>>> degrees, but (I think) the lack of ventilation makes wetter toppings
>>> (still working the kinks out of that method). I may build a wood-fired
>>> brick oven this spring.
>>
>>> *My starter is water and rye. For the dough I use about a cup of
>>> counter culture, 50/50 unbleached white bread flour/whole wheat, salt
>>> and water for about a 1400 gram mass. I tried 50/50 whole wheat bread
>>> flour/whole wheat, but the dough, while delicious, wasn't very easy to
>>> work with and came out a little too hard at the edges.
>>
>>> Good luck.
>>> Matt
>>
>> Hi Matt,
>>
>> Though I normally prefer whole grain breads, I think the difference in
>> flavor between a whole wheat (I use white whole wheat, are you familiar
>> with it?) and white flour pizza dough, keeps me in the white flour
>> crowd, but this may just be the novelty of working with white flour for
>> me. Your idea of baking in a gas grill is an interesting one, though. I
>> wholeheartedly urge you on in your oven building endeavor. The
>> difference in flavor and quality I got from baking hot in my friend's
>> pizza oven and my 500 degree oven was remarkable!
>>
>> Harvey
>
> While I agree white flour yields an ethereal texture and "chew" in
> well made pizza crust, I like the flavor and nutrition profile of the
> whole wheat. My formerly all white flour friends now insist that I
> make whole wheat dough for our pizza making, and we only buy the white
> dough (from a local joint with very good dough) as a backup and for
> dessert pizzas.
>
> The gas grill idea has merit for apartment and condo dwellers, but the
> impetus was actually about keeping the kitchen cool and smoke free
> during a crowded party. I would never suggest it as a viable
> alternative to a brick oven.
>
> I've seen white whole wheat but never used it. Can it make as chewy a
> crust, or does it yield softer, fluffier crust?
>
> Matt

I find that white whole wheat is somewhere in the middle of white and
wheat. For bread, I am able to produce a lighter loaf with white whole
wheat, or at least that has been my experience. When making pizza dough,
I have added perhaps 1/3 by weight white whole wheat to white with
excellent results - chewy-crisoy crust with large holes and great
flavor. I share your preferences for health and the flavor aspect of
whole grain, and used it exclusively until starting on a pizza binge. It
was cool to make a dough - this one 100% white - that stretched until
translucent. I haven't been able to do that with ww! I will probably
increase the ratio the next time, or perhaps use 100 www. We'll see...

Also, I make Barry's Rye bread which uses a rye sour made from white and
rye flours. I do believe I shall try rye and white whole wheat next time.

As for the gas grill - I am now wondering what would happen if you put
tiles on the grill, turned it up and put some pizza on it. hmm...

I have taken my 30% rye 70% white starter and have decided to grow it.
Actually, I have divided in 2 and now, as of 15 minutes ago, have 2
starters. I emptied the starter into a larger tuperware and added 200 g
water and 200 g white whole wheat. This will be for my whole wheat
bread. I plan on doing the same tomorrow and again the next, growing my
sponge. We'll see how that goes.

I then took the mostly empty container that was the home to the starter,
but still had traces of it, and added 100 g water and 100 g white whole
wheat. I will see if that culture will support the whole wheat, which I
suspect it will do nicely.

Anyway, lots of experimenting. All my friends start glazing over when I
talk about bread now. Oh well. They feel differently when I give them a
loaf!

Harvey

eclipsme wrote:
> I have apparently been successful in making my very first starter. T I am wondering if I can simply substitute 200
> grams of the starter for the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be
> concerned with other factors?

I have ok, well very edible, success with a large amount of starter and
a faster rise but now like a small amount of starter and a slow rise
also. I use 1 cup of stirred down active foamy starter for each pack or
dose of commercial yeast called for for the faster rize.

It works well for pizza crust also.

I love another variety which calls for a little starter and a long rise.
This recipe works well.
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On 1/6/2010 5:27 PM, Mike Romain wrote:
> eclipsme wrote:
>> I have apparently been successful in making my very first starter. T I
>> am wondering if I can simply substitute 200 grams of the starter for
>> the poolish and carry on, or do I need to be concerned with other
>> factors?
>
> I have ok, well very edible, success with a large amount of starter and
> a faster rise but now like a small amount of starter and a slow rise
> also. I use 1 cup of stirred down active foamy starter for each pack or
> dose of commercial yeast called for for the faster rize.
>
> It works well for pizza crust also.
>
> I love another variety which calls for a little starter and a long rise.
> This recipe works well.
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc
>
> Mike
> Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Thanks for the advice. Makes sense, now that you say it. Certainly a
place to start. If you read my more recent post, I have basically
started down a different path, developing the poolish over a number of
days by feeding the starter and increasing its bulk. I am not sure of
the advantages/disadvantages of both, so maybe I will try it both ways.

Harvey