I have recently been making the poolish baguettes in Reinhart's book
"The Bread Maker's Apprentice". I know, I know, they are
yeasted...which is kinda OT in this forum. But my question is
applicable to naturally yeasted (sourdough) breads as well.

I love the flavor a good whole wheat loaf. I do not love, however, the
crumb density that many 100% whole wheat loaves produce. It seems next
to impossible to get a light, airy crumb with it. Which led me to an
idea--what if one were to make a poolish (such as the one in
Reinhart's book) out of whole wheat flour, then use "high gluten"
bread flour for the remainder of the flour in the recipe? I'm thinking
that maybe I will still be able to get the same light crumb as when
using white flour, with the great taste of whole wheat. I'm wondering
though...how important is it for the crumb of the final loaf to have
the gluten that was in the original poolish, the one made with white
flour? My hypothesis is that if one ferments the poolish for 4 hrs (at
room temp) then retards it overnight, any gluten (even if using all
white flour)will have degraded completely and thus does not really
contribute to the crumb texture in any appreciable way in the first
place.

I'm going to try they above, but I want to see what people think?

Thanks,

Phil

"Phil" wrote in message
om...
>
> I love the flavor a good whole wheat loaf. I do not love, however, the
> crumb density that many 100% whole wheat loaves produce. It seems next
> to impossible to get a light, airy crumb with it.

I really have no idea concerning your gluten question, however I share your
desire for whole wheat flavor.

What I do is mix whole wheat and white flour in my dough. It's a balancing
act in that the more whole wheat that goes in the more dense the bread gets
and less it rises. Generally I use about 80% white (King Arthur Special
Bread Flour) and 20% whole wheat (whatever it is they have in the bins and
Whole Foods) You could play around with the ratios and probably get
something that comes closer to what you are looking for.

-Mike

"Phil" wrote in message
om...
>
> I love the flavor a good whole wheat loaf. I do not love, however, the
> crumb density that many 100% whole wheat loaves produce. It seems next
> to impossible to get a light, airy crumb with it.

I really have no idea concerning your gluten question, however I share your
desire for whole wheat flavor.

What I do is mix whole wheat and white flour in my dough. It's a balancing
act in that the more whole wheat that goes in the more dense the bread gets
and less it rises. Generally I use about 80% white (King Arthur Special
Bread Flour) and 20% whole wheat (whatever it is they have in the bins and
Whole Foods) You could play around with the ratios and probably get
something that comes closer to what you are looking for.

-Mike

Looks to me that there is no way around a crumb deterioration with fuller=20
grain flours.

It seems that the little particles from the "full grain" destroy the gluten=
=20
net no matter how you go about it. The particles are in there, having their=
=20
effect and don't get "fermented out" or - by the time they are "fermented=20
out", you have soup, which has other effects but does not contribute to=20
loft - you are not fermenting much anyway with your yeast game. Weather you=
=20
use the particles in the preferment or the final dough the effect on the=20
dough does not change much.

You are using yeast and get excited about the "taste" of full grain wheat?

To me, that would have too much straw effect - i. e. too dry and tasteless,=
=20
but anyway...

I'd try 10 % (flour content of dough )light rye with all the rye in the=20
starter and if you don't get enough loft out of it, use yeast. You will get=
=20
a good taste effect, moister crumb, high loft since the rough particles=20
hampering loft are mostly out of the light rye.

Good luck with your experiments.

Samartha

At 07:20 PM 9/6/2004, Phil wrote:
>I have recently been making the poolish baguettes in Reinhart's book
>"The Bread Maker's Apprentice". I know, I know, they are
>yeasted...which is kinda OT in this forum. But my question is
>applicable to naturally yeasted (sourdough) breads as well.
>
>I love the flavor a good whole wheat loaf. I do not love, however, the
>crumb density that many 100% whole wheat loaves produce. It seems next
>to impossible to get a light, airy crumb with it. Which led me to an
>idea--what if one were to make a poolish (such as the one in
>Reinhart's book) out of whole wheat flour, then use "high gluten"
>bread flour for the remainder of the flour in the recipe? I'm thinking
>that maybe I will still be able to get the same light crumb as when
>using white flour, with the great taste of whole wheat. I'm wondering
>though...how important is it for the crumb of the final loaf to have
>the gluten that was in the original poolish, the one made with white
>flour? My hypothesis is that if one ferments the poolish for 4 hrs (at
>room temp) then retards it overnight, any gluten (even if using all
>white flour)will have degraded completely and thus does not really
>contribute to the crumb texture in any appreciable way in the first
>place.
>
>I'm going to try they above, but I want to see what people think?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Phil
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

=3D=3D=3D
Samartha Deva
Certified Rolfer
Certified Rolf Movement=AE Practitioner
Longmont, CO
www.IRolfYou.com
(303) 774-1375

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address=20

Looks to me that there is no way around a crumb deterioration with fuller=20
grain flours.

It seems that the little particles from the "full grain" destroy the gluten=
=20
net no matter how you go about it. The particles are in there, having their=
=20
effect and don't get "fermented out" or - by the time they are "fermented=20
out", you have soup, which has other effects but does not contribute to=20
loft - you are not fermenting much anyway with your yeast game. Weather you=
=20
use the particles in the preferment or the final dough the effect on the=20
dough does not change much.

You are using yeast and get excited about the "taste" of full grain wheat?

To me, that would have too much straw effect - i. e. too dry and tasteless,=
=20
but anyway...

I'd try 10 % (flour content of dough )light rye with all the rye in the=20
starter and if you don't get enough loft out of it, use yeast. You will get=
=20
a good taste effect, moister crumb, high loft since the rough particles=20
hampering loft are mostly out of the light rye.

Good luck with your experiments.

Samartha

At 07:20 PM 9/6/2004, Phil wrote:
>I have recently been making the poolish baguettes in Reinhart's book
>"The Bread Maker's Apprentice". I know, I know, they are
>yeasted...which is kinda OT in this forum. But my question is
>applicable to naturally yeasted (sourdough) breads as well.
>
>I love the flavor a good whole wheat loaf. I do not love, however, the
>crumb density that many 100% whole wheat loaves produce. It seems next
>to impossible to get a light, airy crumb with it. Which led me to an
>idea--what if one were to make a poolish (such as the one in
>Reinhart's book) out of whole wheat flour, then use "high gluten"
>bread flour for the remainder of the flour in the recipe? I'm thinking
>that maybe I will still be able to get the same light crumb as when
>using white flour, with the great taste of whole wheat. I'm wondering
>though...how important is it for the crumb of the final loaf to have
>the gluten that was in the original poolish, the one made with white
>flour? My hypothesis is that if one ferments the poolish for 4 hrs (at
>room temp) then retards it overnight, any gluten (even if using all
>white flour)will have degraded completely and thus does not really
>contribute to the crumb texture in any appreciable way in the first
>place.
>
>I'm going to try they above, but I want to see what people think?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Phil
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

>http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

=3D=3D=3D
Samartha Deva
Certified Rolfer
Certified Rolf Movement=AE Practitioner
Longmont, CO
www.IRolfYou.com
(303) 774-1375

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address=20

"Samartha" > in
news:mailman.1094531966.22868.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...
said, presumably to "yuk7yuk7":

> Looks to me that there is no way around a crumb deterioration=20
> with fuller grain flours. It seems that the little particles from the =

> "full grain" destroy the gluten net no matter how you go about it.

I have heard that Ed Wood himself has remarked in one of their
newsletters that he is mystified by the kneading effectiveness of the
bread machine. Here is a non-sourdough example from my cheap
bread machine, based on mostly whole wheat flour*:=20
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...BMWW7SEP04.jpg

What does it prove?:
1. I am loosing respect for the convention of not mention the bread
machine at r.f.s.
2. Ed Wood is right about that -- the BM is quite mysteriously =
effective.
3. The full-grain little particles can be disarmed, however =
mysteriously.

> ... You are using yeast and get excited about the "taste" of full=20
> grain wheat?

The flavor of whole wheat, by me, is so strong that sourdough flavors
would be overwhelmed so I have not seen the advantage of using
WW flour for SD.

> I'd try 10 % (flour content of dough) light rye with all the rye in =
the=20
> starter ...

I don't suppose that the rye flour would hurt much, except that=20
you would get effectively 10% less gluten in your dough.

I wouldst conjecture, for the present circumstance, and quite in
general, that the more complex procedures stand the less chance
of exemplary outcomes.

Furthermore, I wouldst presume that fully-kneaded dough hath
some yet-to-be-discovered advantages among the gentle folk of
the r.f.s. persuasion.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

* 2 cups hard red wheat, ground 2 min. in VitaMixer
1 cup All Trumps bread flour
17% molasses in water, for 65% baker's hydration
1.5 bakers' per cent salt =20
1.0 bakers' per cent dry yeast
Zest of one orange

Regards the bread flour, it was included in my first=20
success with this dough, so I have continued with it.
Previously I mentioned incorporating some gluten
flour, but that has proved unnecessary.

"Samartha" > in
news:mailman.1094531966.22868.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.c=
om...
said, presumably to "yuk7yuk7":

> Looks to me that there is no way around a crumb deterioration=20
> with fuller grain flours. It seems that the little particles from the =

> "full grain" destroy the gluten net no matter how you go about it.

I have heard that Ed Wood himself has remarked in one of their
newsletters that he is mystified by the kneading effectiveness of the
bread machine. Here is a non-sourdough example from my cheap
bread machine, based on mostly whole wheat flour*:=20
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...BMWW7SEP04.jpg

What does it prove?:
1. I am loosing respect for the convention of not mention the bread
machine at r.f.s.
2. Ed Wood is right about that -- the BM is quite mysteriously =
effective.
3. The full-grain little particles can be disarmed, however =
mysteriously.

> ... You are using yeast and get excited about the "taste" of full=20
> grain wheat?

The flavor of whole wheat, by me, is so strong that sourdough flavors
would be overwhelmed so I have not seen the advantage of using
WW flour for SD.

> I'd try 10 % (flour content of dough) light rye with all the rye in =
the=20
> starter ...

I don't suppose that the rye flour would hurt much, except that=20
you would get effectively 10% less gluten in your dough.

I wouldst conjecture, for the present circumstance, and quite in
general, that the more complex procedures stand the less chance
of exemplary outcomes.

Furthermore, I wouldst presume that fully-kneaded dough hath
some yet-to-be-discovered advantages among the gentle folk of
the r.f.s. persuasion.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

* 2 cups hard red wheat, ground 2 min. in VitaMixer
1 cup All Trumps bread flour
17% molasses in water, for 65% baker's hydration
1.5 bakers' per cent salt =20
1.0 bakers' per cent dry yeast
Zest of one orange

Regards the bread flour, it was included in my first=20
success with this dough, so I have continued with it.
Previously I mentioned incorporating some gluten
flour, but that has proved unnecessary.

<snip> My hypothesis is that if one ferments the poolish for 4 hrs (at
>room temp) then retards it overnight, any gluten (even if using all
>white flour)will have degraded completely and thus does not really
>contribute to the crumb texture in any appreciable way in the first
>place.
>
>I'm going to try they above, but I want to see what people think?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Phil
>
I suspect that you are confusing gluten, which is just another protein, with
developed gluten which is what makes the structure that supports an open crumb.
A poolish is, typically, mixed only til thoroughly combined, there is no
development of the gluten, that is done by the mixing and kneading of the main
dough.

As for gluten "degrading" during a long preferment, I've never heard of or
experienced such a phenomenon.

I can make close grained but light 100% wholewheat but I don't like the
coarseness of taste and texture imparted by the bran so I only make the bread
for a few, otherwise sane, friends, of the "My body is a temple." persuasion
whose kindness and companionship make the effort worthwhile and it's not a
bread I eat at all.

John

<snip> My hypothesis is that if one ferments the poolish for 4 hrs (at
>room temp) then retards it overnight, any gluten (even if using all
>white flour)will have degraded completely and thus does not really
>contribute to the crumb texture in any appreciable way in the first
>place.
>
>I'm going to try they above, but I want to see what people think?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Phil
>
I suspect that you are confusing gluten, which is just another protein, with
developed gluten which is what makes the structure that supports an open crumb.
A poolish is, typically, mixed only til thoroughly combined, there is no
development of the gluten, that is done by the mixing and kneading of the main
dough.

As for gluten "degrading" during a long preferment, I've never heard of or
experienced such a phenomenon.

I can make close grained but light 100% wholewheat but I don't like the
coarseness of taste and texture imparted by the bran so I only make the bread
for a few, otherwise sane, friends, of the "My body is a temple." persuasion
whose kindness and companionship make the effort worthwhile and it's not a
bread I eat at all.

John

On 9/7/04 2:28 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:

> <snip>

> I can make close grained but light 100% wholewheat but I don't like the
> coarseness of taste and texture imparted by the bran so I only make the bread
> for a few, otherwise sane, friends, of the "My body is a temple." persuasion
> whose kindness and companionship make the effort worthwhile and it's not a
> bread I eat at all.
>
> John
>
John,

This simple recipe has been posted before but it's worth a rerun. It's one
of my favorites. I make two loaves once a week, every week...

Kenneth has probably fiddled with it since this version listed, but what's
below makes a very satisfying bread. Your "body as temple" friends wouldn't
be disappointed. You might be converted too.

Will


Kenneth's Poilane loaf:

Day 1, 9:30pm 474g Water + 120g starter + 236g coarse whole wheat,
ferment at 69F.

Day 2, 7:30am add 65g coarse rye, 254g KA AP flour, 170g whole spelt
flour, 20g salt.

Knead fully, then refrigerate 24 hours. Then, form boule, ferment at
69F for 5 hours.

Slash, then bake at 490F for 35 minutes, the first 15 minutes with
steam...

>This simple recipe has been posted before but it's worth a rerun. It's one
>of my favorites. I make two loaves once a week, every week...
>
>Kenneth has probably fiddled with it since this version listed, but what's
>below makes a very satisfying bread. Your "body as temple" friends wouldn't
>be disappointed. You might be converted too.
>
>Will
>
<snip of an interesting variation on the Poilane theme>

Thank you, Will. I'll need a hearty loaf or two for a dinner at the house of a
friend who is the most marvellous veggie cook. She's making her Boscht and this
formula sounds just about right.

I see you're using the irregular verb "I improve, you modify, he fiddles"<g>.

As for conversion, I try to keep an open mind (with about as much success as
anyone else<g>) but I think, at worst, my friend will rhapsodise over the bread
which is the purpose of the gift. So what have I to lose?

John

>This simple recipe has been posted before but it's worth a rerun. It's one
>of my favorites. I make two loaves once a week, every week...
>
>Kenneth has probably fiddled with it since this version listed, but what's
>below makes a very satisfying bread. Your "body as temple" friends wouldn't
>be disappointed. You might be converted too.
>
>Will
>
<snip of an interesting variation on the Poilane theme>

Thank you, Will. I'll need a hearty loaf or two for a dinner at the house of a
friend who is the most marvellous veggie cook. She's making her Boscht and this
formula sounds just about right.

I see you're using the irregular verb "I improve, you modify, he fiddles"<g>.

As for conversion, I try to keep an open mind (with about as much success as
anyone else<g>) but I think, at worst, my friend will rhapsodise over the bread
which is the purpose of the gift. So what have I to lose?

John

On 9/7/04 4:21 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:

>> This simple recipe has been posted before but it's worth a rerun. It's one
>> of my favorites. I make two loaves once a week, every week...
>>
>> Kenneth has probably fiddled with it since this version listed, but what's
>> below makes a very satisfying bread. Your "body as temple" friends wouldn't
>> be disappointed. You might be converted too.
>>
>> Will
>>
> <snip of an interesting variation on the Poilane theme>
>
> Thank you, Will. I'll need a hearty loaf or two for a dinner at the house of a
> friend who is the most marvellous veggie cook. She's making her Boscht and
> this
> formula sounds just about right.
>
> I see you're using the irregular verb "I improve, you modify, he fiddles"<g>.
>
> As for conversion, I try to keep an open mind (with about as much success as
> anyone else<g>) but I think, at worst, my friend will rhapsodise over the
> bread
> which is the purpose of the gift. So what have I to lose?
>
> John

If you have the opportunity, perhaps one of those mysterious BM's might
disperse the bran <g>.

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 9/7/04 4:21 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:

>> This simple recipe has been posted before but it's worth a rerun. It's one
>> of my favorites. I make two loaves once a week, every week...
>>
>> Kenneth has probably fiddled with it since this version listed, but what's
>> below makes a very satisfying bread. Your "body as temple" friends wouldn't
>> be disappointed. You might be converted too.
>>
>> Will
>>
> <snip of an interesting variation on the Poilane theme>
>
> Thank you, Will. I'll need a hearty loaf or two for a dinner at the house of a
> friend who is the most marvellous veggie cook. She's making her Boscht and
> this
> formula sounds just about right.
>
> I see you're using the irregular verb "I improve, you modify, he fiddles"<g>.
>
> As for conversion, I try to keep an open mind (with about as much success as
> anyone else<g>) but I think, at worst, my friend will rhapsodise over the
> bread
> which is the purpose of the gift. So what have I to lose?
>
> John

If you have the opportunity, perhaps one of those mysterious BM's might
disperse the bran <g>.

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Dick Adams wrote:

> The flavor of whole wheat, by me, is so strong that sourdough flavors
> would be overwhelmed so I have not seen the advantage of using
> WW flour for SD.

I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.

I make light 100% whole grain (oats and hard white wheat) yeast loaves in
my ABM. I haven't tried it for sourdough, since I usually do 6 cups of
flour batches of sourdough.

Karen R.

Dick Adams wrote:

> The flavor of whole wheat, by me, is so strong that sourdough flavors
> would be overwhelmed so I have not seen the advantage of using
> WW flour for SD.

I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.

I make light 100% whole grain (oats and hard white wheat) yeast loaves in
my ABM. I haven't tried it for sourdough, since I usually do 6 cups of
flour batches of sourdough.

Karen R.

"Karen" > wrote in message =
link.net...

> I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio =
in
> sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.

Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
using the white whole wheat flour?

The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that =
respect?

---
DickA

"Karen" > wrote in message =
link.net...

> I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio =
in
> sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.

Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
using the white whole wheat flour?

The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that =
respect?

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Karen" > wrote in message link.net...
>
>>I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
>>sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.
>
> Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
> using the white whole wheat flour?

Bread flour. That is also what I use to feed my starter. The advantage is
mostly nutritional. I'm one of those nuts who feels guilty about serving
my family 100% white bread :-). If I'm making a sweet bread I'll still
throw in some oats. The hard white wheat doesn't contain the bitter bran
that hard red wheat does, so the sourdough flavor isn't overwhelmed --
though it is if I use more than half white wheat. At 50% and under, I
think the flavor is enhanced. That is purely subjective, and YMMV.

> The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
> well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that respect?

Subjective again, but I think the rise is better. The white wheat tends
to be milled a little finer. I've also noticed higher loaves in the ABM
with white wheat and oats (no bread flour) than with the same combination
using red wheat. White wheat also works well in quick breads, muffins
cookies, and bars. I'm feeding teenagers, including one with severe
sensory issues, and my baked goods are never rejected. See, my family
likes it <VBG>.

Karen R.

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Karen" > wrote in message link.net...
>
>>I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
>>sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.
>
> Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
> using the white whole wheat flour?

Bread flour. That is also what I use to feed my starter. The advantage is
mostly nutritional. I'm one of those nuts who feels guilty about serving
my family 100% white bread :-). If I'm making a sweet bread I'll still
throw in some oats. The hard white wheat doesn't contain the bitter bran
that hard red wheat does, so the sourdough flavor isn't overwhelmed --
though it is if I use more than half white wheat. At 50% and under, I
think the flavor is enhanced. That is purely subjective, and YMMV.

> The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
> well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that respect?

Subjective again, but I think the rise is better. The white wheat tends
to be milled a little finer. I've also noticed higher loaves in the ABM
with white wheat and oats (no bread flour) than with the same combination
using red wheat. White wheat also works well in quick breads, muffins
cookies, and bars. I'm feeding teenagers, including one with severe
sensory issues, and my baked goods are never rejected. See, my family
likes it <VBG>.

Karen R.

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Karen" > wrote in message link.net...
>
>
>>I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
>>sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.
>
>
> Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
> using the white whole wheat flour?
>
> The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
> well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that respect?
>
> ---
> DickA
>
White Whole Wheat flour is gaining traction with those who do not fully
appreciate the taste of "normal" whole wheat. It is becoming a big
seller with both King Arthur and WheatMontana.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Karen" > wrote in message link.net...
>
>
>>I've had very good luck with white whole wheat flour in a 50-50 ratio in
>>sourdough. Hard red wheat tends to overwhelm the flavor, IMO.
>
>
> Sounds interesting. What is the other 50%? What is the advantage of
> using the white whole wheat flour?
>
> The common understanding is that whole wheat flour does not rise as
> well as ordinary white bread flour. What is your experience in that respect?
>
> ---
> DickA
>
White Whole Wheat flour is gaining traction with those who do not fully
appreciate the taste of "normal" whole wheat. It is becoming a big
seller with both King Arthur and WheatMontana.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004