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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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On 8/30/04 2:20 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
>> >> Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, >> chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by >> hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John John, YES! You can let hydrolysis do the heavy lifting and enjoy excellent levain bread. This is not quite so true with commercially yeasted breads. That form of yeast works too quickly (unless severely retarded) for the gluten to develop so you need to mechanically develop the dough. High gluten/high protein flours and mechanical kneading (and aeration for that matter) go hand-in-hand as technical "improvements" to facilitate factory produced bread. I don't mean "factory produced" in a pejorative sense here. It took me longer to accept lower protein flours than hydrolysis. But that subject would be another thread. Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On 8/30/04 2:20 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
>> >> Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, >> chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by >> hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John John, YES! You can let hydrolysis do the heavy lifting and enjoy excellent levain bread. This is not quite so true with commercially yeasted breads. That form of yeast works too quickly (unless severely retarded) for the gluten to develop so you need to mechanically develop the dough. High gluten/high protein flours and mechanical kneading (and aeration for that matter) go hand-in-hand as technical "improvements" to facilitate factory produced bread. I don't mean "factory produced" in a pejorative sense here. It took me longer to accept lower protein flours than hydrolysis. But that subject would be another thread. Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > > > >Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, > >chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by > >hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. > > > >All the best, > > > >-- > >Kenneth > > > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John Some form of autolyse for 30 minutes cuts way down on the amount of kneading necessary. Mix only until you have a rough mass with no dry flour pockets, cover the mixer with a towel or whatever to prevent surface drying and walk away for 30 minutes. When you start up the mixer again at the end of the autolyse the stuff in the bowl just pulls together. You should be able to get by with 4-6 minutes of mixer kneading at lower speeds. Less mixing cuts down on oxidation. It's also a great way to preserve the life of your mixer. I have never tried it with any dough that has hydration as high as your Cocodrillo, John, but I would think it would be an ideal application. Because, after all, the stretch and fold is essentially a series of autolyse. Janet |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... > > > >Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, > >chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by > >hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. > > > >All the best, > > > >-- > >Kenneth > > > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John Some form of autolyse for 30 minutes cuts way down on the amount of kneading necessary. Mix only until you have a rough mass with no dry flour pockets, cover the mixer with a towel or whatever to prevent surface drying and walk away for 30 minutes. When you start up the mixer again at the end of the autolyse the stuff in the bowl just pulls together. You should be able to get by with 4-6 minutes of mixer kneading at lower speeds. Less mixing cuts down on oxidation. It's also a great way to preserve the life of your mixer. I have never tried it with any dough that has hydration as high as your Cocodrillo, John, but I would think it would be an ideal application. Because, after all, the stretch and fold is essentially a series of autolyse. Janet |
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>
>Hi John, > >I don't know what "seriously" would mean in this context, but yes, >that is exactly what I am saying. > >Not only does it work well (I have been doing it for about thirty >years), but, as I mentioned in another post, it has the advantage of >producing a coarser crumb. > >You might want to give it a try. It really works. > >All the best, > >-- >Kenneth Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing fast and stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better quiescent in the fridge? John |
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>
>Hi John, > >I don't know what "seriously" would mean in this context, but yes, >that is exactly what I am saying. > >Not only does it work well (I have been doing it for about thirty >years), but, as I mentioned in another post, it has the advantage of >producing a coarser crumb. > >You might want to give it a try. It really works. > >All the best, > >-- >Kenneth Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing fast and stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better quiescent in the fridge? John |
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>
>Some form of autolyse for 30 minutes cuts way down on the amount of kneading >necessary. Mix only until you have a rough mass with no dry flour pockets, >cover the mixer with a towel or whatever to prevent surface drying and walk >away for 30 minutes. When you start up the mixer again at the end of the >autolyse the stuff in the bowl just pulls together. You should be able to >get by with 4-6 minutes of mixer kneading at lower speeds. Less mixing cuts >down on oxidation. It's also a great way to preserve the life of your >mixer. I have never tried it with any dough that has hydration as high as >your Cocodrillo, John, but I would think it would be an ideal application. >Because, after all, the stretch and fold is essentially a series of >autolyse. >Janet > Agreed, very few of my breads are just mixed to finished consistency from scratch, a 30 minute autolyse is absolutely SOP. It's just the idea that a dough can spontaneously generate gluten structure. Oh well, only one answer, "Try it John." John |
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>
>Some form of autolyse for 30 minutes cuts way down on the amount of kneading >necessary. Mix only until you have a rough mass with no dry flour pockets, >cover the mixer with a towel or whatever to prevent surface drying and walk >away for 30 minutes. When you start up the mixer again at the end of the >autolyse the stuff in the bowl just pulls together. You should be able to >get by with 4-6 minutes of mixer kneading at lower speeds. Less mixing cuts >down on oxidation. It's also a great way to preserve the life of your >mixer. I have never tried it with any dough that has hydration as high as >your Cocodrillo, John, but I would think it would be an ideal application. >Because, after all, the stretch and fold is essentially a series of >autolyse. >Janet > Agreed, very few of my breads are just mixed to finished consistency from scratch, a 30 minute autolyse is absolutely SOP. It's just the idea that a dough can spontaneously generate gluten structure. Oh well, only one answer, "Try it John." John |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > > Kenneth> > >I don't know what "seriously" would mean in this context, but yes, > >that is exactly what I am saying. > > > > > >You might want to give it a try. It really works. > > > >All the best, > > > >-- > >Kenneth > > Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing fast and > stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. > > Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better quiescent > in the fridge? John: Today a baked a loaf of ciabatta-type bread and used a method very similar to what you describe above. The results did not look a lot different from the photo you posted earlier in this thread. The bread is very tasty. I'm making soup right now mainly because I think it will go well with the bread. With today's bread I'd mixed the dough on Saturday and it had been sitting in the refrigerator since then. Initially I put it in the refrigerator just to buy myself an extra hour or two of time and had intended to bake it on Saturday, but as luck would have it I wasn't able to get back to it until today. You might like the results of your experiment. -Mike |
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"Wcsjohn" wrote in message
... > > Kenneth> > >I don't know what "seriously" would mean in this context, but yes, > >that is exactly what I am saying. > > > > > >You might want to give it a try. It really works. > > > >All the best, > > > >-- > >Kenneth > > Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing fast and > stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. > > Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better quiescent > in the fridge? John: Today a baked a loaf of ciabatta-type bread and used a method very similar to what you describe above. The results did not look a lot different from the photo you posted earlier in this thread. The bread is very tasty. I'm making soup right now mainly because I think it will go well with the bread. With today's bread I'd mixed the dough on Saturday and it had been sitting in the refrigerator since then. Initially I put it in the refrigerator just to buy myself an extra hour or two of time and had intended to bake it on Saturday, but as luck would have it I wasn't able to get back to it until today. You might like the results of your experiment. -Mike |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
... .... >>You might want to give it a try. It really works. >> >>All the best, >> >>-- >>Kenneth > > Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing > fast and > stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. I'm with Kenneth in this one, John. But you can't just mix 'em and bake 'em. I found out that my critters (SD) did an admirable job of developing gluten. That was one of the reasons I'd dithered so long on getting a mixer--I simply didn't need it. But I'd suggest that you at least continue with the S&F as it would seem to be an integral part of making good Ciabatta's... It wasn't until I started making your high-hydration breads (and I've been grateful for your suggestion ever since...(:-o)!) that a mixer began to be worth the bother. While I'd like to think I can do it, I just can't see me beating or kneading Coccodrillo batter for an hour...better to let the mixer do it. I don't know where I first found out about the gluten building properties of SD. Probably read it somewhere as I was learning SD. Being completely inundated at that time with all of the "noise" in the SD world...I just don't recall. I did learn, over time, that all I had to do was build a good sponge (very important!), and then use that by mixing it and kneading it just a bit. Now, my yeast breads didn't give me that same benefit. Them factory pampered little suckers seem to be wimps! Cuz I still have to man-handle that dough...a lot! But, my SD breads have become so easy and fun to make that I've not made plain yeast anything in years. I even make SD cinnamon rolls and croissants that come out every bit as good as with bakers yeast Later my friend, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply > > Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better > quiescent > in the fridge? > > John |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
... .... >>You might want to give it a try. It really works. >> >>All the best, >> >>-- >>Kenneth > > Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing > fast and > stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. I'm with Kenneth in this one, John. But you can't just mix 'em and bake 'em. I found out that my critters (SD) did an admirable job of developing gluten. That was one of the reasons I'd dithered so long on getting a mixer--I simply didn't need it. But I'd suggest that you at least continue with the S&F as it would seem to be an integral part of making good Ciabatta's... It wasn't until I started making your high-hydration breads (and I've been grateful for your suggestion ever since...(:-o)!) that a mixer began to be worth the bother. While I'd like to think I can do it, I just can't see me beating or kneading Coccodrillo batter for an hour...better to let the mixer do it. I don't know where I first found out about the gluten building properties of SD. Probably read it somewhere as I was learning SD. Being completely inundated at that time with all of the "noise" in the SD world...I just don't recall. I did learn, over time, that all I had to do was build a good sponge (very important!), and then use that by mixing it and kneading it just a bit. Now, my yeast breads didn't give me that same benefit. Them factory pampered little suckers seem to be wimps! Cuz I still have to man-handle that dough...a lot! But, my SD breads have become so easy and fun to make that I've not made plain yeast anything in years. I even make SD cinnamon rolls and croissants that come out every bit as good as with bakers yeast Later my friend, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply > > Should the dough be rising during the long hydrolysis or is it better > quiescent > in the fridge? > > John |
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:57:13 -0700, "Dusty"
> wrote: >"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... >... >>>You might want to give it a try. It really works. >>> >>>All the best, >>> >>>-- >>>Kenneth >> >> Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing >> fast and >> stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. > >I'm with Kenneth in this one, John. But you can't just mix 'em and bake >'em. I found out that my critters (SD) did an admirable job of developing >gluten. That was one of the reasons I'd dithered so long on getting a >mixer--I simply didn't need it. But I'd suggest that you at least continue >with the S&F as it would seem to be an integral part of making good >Ciabatta's... > >It wasn't until I started making your high-hydration breads (and I've been >grateful for your suggestion ever since...(:-o)!) that a mixer began to be >worth the bother. While I'd like to think I can do it, I just can't see me >beating or kneading Coccodrillo batter for an hour...better to let the mixer >do it. > >I don't know where I first found out about the gluten building properties of >SD. Probably read it somewhere as I was learning SD. Being completely >inundated at that time with all of the "noise" in the SD world...I just >don't recall. I did learn, over time, that all I had to do was build a good >sponge (very important!), and then use that by mixing it and kneading it >just a bit. > >Now, my yeast breads didn't give me that same benefit. Them factory >pampered little suckers seem to be wimps! Cuz I still have to man-handle >that dough...a lot! But, my SD breads have become so easy and fun to make >that I've not made plain yeast anything in years. I even make SD cinnamon >rolls and croissants that come out every bit as good as with bakers yeast > > >Later my friend, >Dusty Hi Dusty, It is my understanding that it is not the culture that causes the gluten to form. It is the water... Gluten will form if you just mix flour and water and wait. The reason that it seems to work better with SD than with commercial yeast is only that SD is generally slower than commercial yeast, and, as a result, there is more time for the water to work its "magic." All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 15:57:13 -0700, "Dusty"
> wrote: >"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message ... >... >>>You might want to give it a try. It really works. >>> >>>All the best, >>> >>>-- >>>Kenneth >> >> Fine, I'll put a batch of Sourdough Ciabatta on and, instead of mixing >> fast and >> stretching and folding, I'll just leave it once it's thoroughly mixed. > >I'm with Kenneth in this one, John. But you can't just mix 'em and bake >'em. I found out that my critters (SD) did an admirable job of developing >gluten. That was one of the reasons I'd dithered so long on getting a >mixer--I simply didn't need it. But I'd suggest that you at least continue >with the S&F as it would seem to be an integral part of making good >Ciabatta's... > >It wasn't until I started making your high-hydration breads (and I've been >grateful for your suggestion ever since...(:-o)!) that a mixer began to be >worth the bother. While I'd like to think I can do it, I just can't see me >beating or kneading Coccodrillo batter for an hour...better to let the mixer >do it. > >I don't know where I first found out about the gluten building properties of >SD. Probably read it somewhere as I was learning SD. Being completely >inundated at that time with all of the "noise" in the SD world...I just >don't recall. I did learn, over time, that all I had to do was build a good >sponge (very important!), and then use that by mixing it and kneading it >just a bit. > >Now, my yeast breads didn't give me that same benefit. Them factory >pampered little suckers seem to be wimps! Cuz I still have to man-handle >that dough...a lot! But, my SD breads have become so easy and fun to make >that I've not made plain yeast anything in years. I even make SD cinnamon >rolls and croissants that come out every bit as good as with bakers yeast > > >Later my friend, >Dusty Hi Dusty, It is my understanding that it is not the culture that causes the gluten to form. It is the water... Gluten will form if you just mix flour and water and wait. The reason that it seems to work better with SD than with commercial yeast is only that SD is generally slower than commercial yeast, and, as a result, there is more time for the water to work its "magic." All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal"
but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation period and rather cool temperatures. In our Pave de France - a charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. The best recipes start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is a little tricky. Good luck. |
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On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote:
> Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > period and rather cool temperatures. Konny, There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on during the slow, cooler fermentation? >In our Pave de France - a > charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start > the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of > commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. > Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to > make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are > available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. Thanks... >The best recipes > start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: > Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the > dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might > not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is > a little tricky. Good luck. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote:
> Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > period and rather cool temperatures. Konny, There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on during the slow, cooler fermentation? >In our Pave de France - a > charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start > the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of > commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. > Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to > make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are > available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. Thanks... >The best recipes > start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: > Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the > dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might > not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is > a little tricky. Good luck. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.20.1093962849.1141.rec.food.sourdoug >...
> On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote: > > > Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > > period and rather cool temperatures. > > Konny, > > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly > for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on > during the slow, cooler fermentation? > What I believe is, that the gluten strands have a chance to relax perfectly and get more time to "make out" so to speak. > Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. > Thanks... > A basic old dough will consist of a white flour, a few crumbs of yeast and enough water to make a stiff ball. Let it sit for 4 to 12 hours and it's ready to go. You can make a lot of breads with it, giving them a thin crust and a better flavor. It's not to be mistaken for the sourdough method, which gives a different texture to the bread. The quality of flour will vary a great deal. When I tried to make my recipes with american flour, they didn't work, because american flour will absorb more water than the german white-bread-flour. Sometimes you have to "destroy" the flour by pouring boiling water over it, if the recipe demands it. The american "unbleached all-purpose" flour really is a beautiful flour to make robust white breads with, that have a crunchy outside and a chewy texture. In Germany we are used to weaker flours, but we are using imported flours from Italy and France too. As a little side note, and this is just from my personal experience with ambitious home bakers: In my opnion, the biggest mistakes are probably made during fermentation. A lot of people handle the dough too much, checking the dough every minute, letting air get to the dough, putting their fingers into it, etc... That would be ill-advised. For example, if you're using a sourdough starter, it can build a crust. Don't punch it down, just wait and later remove it and use only the soft part of the starter inside. KK |
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williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.20.1093962849.1141.rec.food.sourdoug >...
> On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote: > > > Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > > period and rather cool temperatures. > > Konny, > > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly > for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on > during the slow, cooler fermentation? > What I believe is, that the gluten strands have a chance to relax perfectly and get more time to "make out" so to speak. > Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. > Thanks... > A basic old dough will consist of a white flour, a few crumbs of yeast and enough water to make a stiff ball. Let it sit for 4 to 12 hours and it's ready to go. You can make a lot of breads with it, giving them a thin crust and a better flavor. It's not to be mistaken for the sourdough method, which gives a different texture to the bread. The quality of flour will vary a great deal. When I tried to make my recipes with american flour, they didn't work, because american flour will absorb more water than the german white-bread-flour. Sometimes you have to "destroy" the flour by pouring boiling water over it, if the recipe demands it. The american "unbleached all-purpose" flour really is a beautiful flour to make robust white breads with, that have a crunchy outside and a chewy texture. In Germany we are used to weaker flours, but we are using imported flours from Italy and France too. As a little side note, and this is just from my personal experience with ambitious home bakers: In my opnion, the biggest mistakes are probably made during fermentation. A lot of people handle the dough too much, checking the dough every minute, letting air get to the dough, putting their fingers into it, etc... That would be ill-advised. For example, if you're using a sourdough starter, it can build a crust. Don't punch it down, just wait and later remove it and use only the soft part of the starter inside. KK |
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