Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
please be gentle with me.

I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.

The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
from? Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
refreshment I have a Starter?

Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?

Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
in the first step of the recipe?

Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.

Thanks,

james

Howdy,

I don't have the book in hand, but have a few comments inline below...



On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:26:26 +0800, James >
wrote:




>Hi everyone,
>
>I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
>please be gentle with me.
>
>I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
>some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
>and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
>sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
>thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
>good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
>use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
>questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
>who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
>tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.
>
>The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
>however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
>don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
>Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
>refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
>this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
>from?

Yes. That is what I would take it to mean...


>Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
>Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
>refreshment I have a Starter?

"No",

"No",

and "No" <bg>

The term "Chef" is usually used to mean the stored starter (in France,
often a lump of rather stiff fermenting dough.)

"Levain" is just the French word for starter, or culture.

The French would, I believe, use the word levain for the starter
whatever the stage of its refreshment.

>
>Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
>sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
>why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?
>
>Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
>that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
>batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
>about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
>really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
>the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
>in the first step of the recipe?
>
>Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
>just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.
>
>Thanks,
>
>james

You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
"dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...

HTH,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Howdy,

I don't have the book in hand, but have a few comments inline below...



On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:26:26 +0800, James >
wrote:




>Hi everyone,
>
>I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
>please be gentle with me.
>
>I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
>some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
>and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
>sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
>thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
>good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
>use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
>questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
>who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
>tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.
>
>The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
>however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
>don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
>Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
>refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
>this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
>from?

Yes. That is what I would take it to mean...


>Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
>Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
>refreshment I have a Starter?

"No",

"No",

and "No" <bg>

The term "Chef" is usually used to mean the stored starter (in France,
often a lump of rather stiff fermenting dough.)

"Levain" is just the French word for starter, or culture.

The French would, I believe, use the word levain for the starter
whatever the stage of its refreshment.

>
>Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
>sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
>why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?
>
>Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
>that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
>batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
>about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
>really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
>the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
>in the first step of the recipe?
>
>Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
>just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.
>
>Thanks,
>
>james

You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
"dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...

HTH,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
> uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
> suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
> "dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
> You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...

Thanks for the advice Kenneth. I wondered if I wasn't getting too hung
up on the terminology. Is it generally the case that one can keep a bit
of old dough and use it as a starter for the next batch as effectively
as if one had kept a bit of the actual starter, or does the addition of
salt inhibit the formation of more yeast? In both cases, does the
"dough" need to be refreshed and left for 6-8 hours?

The other thing that irks me about the book is that the "home baker"
section recipes don't have metric measurements or baker's percentages,
and the professional ones at the back seem to differ from the domestic
ones, even when they are meant to refer to the same bread. I prefer to
weight out my ingredients so it takes a big leap of faith for me to just
start scooping out cups of flour, teaspoons of yeast etc. etc.

Cheers,

james

Kenneth wrote:

> You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
> uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
> suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
> "dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
> You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...

Thanks for the advice Kenneth. I wondered if I wasn't getting too hung
up on the terminology. Is it generally the case that one can keep a bit
of old dough and use it as a starter for the next batch as effectively
as if one had kept a bit of the actual starter, or does the addition of
salt inhibit the formation of more yeast? In both cases, does the
"dough" need to be refreshed and left for 6-8 hours?

The other thing that irks me about the book is that the "home baker"
section recipes don't have metric measurements or baker's percentages,
and the professional ones at the back seem to differ from the domestic
ones, even when they are meant to refer to the same bread. I prefer to
weight out my ingredients so it takes a big leap of faith for me to just
start scooping out cups of flour, teaspoons of yeast etc. etc.

Cheers,

james

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:58:35 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
>> uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
>> suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
>> "dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
>> You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...
>
>Thanks for the advice Kenneth. I wondered if I wasn't getting too hung
>up on the terminology. Is it generally the case that one can keep a bit
>of old dough and use it as a starter for the next batch as effectively
>as if one had kept a bit of the actual starter, or does the addition of
>salt inhibit the formation of more yeast? In both cases, does the
>"dough" need to be refreshed and left for 6-8 hours?
>
>The other thing that irks me about the book is that the "home baker"
>section recipes don't have metric measurements or baker's percentages,
>and the professional ones at the back seem to differ from the domestic
>ones, even when they are meant to refer to the same bread. I prefer to
>weight out my ingredients so it takes a big leap of faith for me to just
>start scooping out cups of flour, teaspoons of yeast etc. etc.
>
>Cheers,
>
>james

Hey James,

The addition of salt does inhibit the growth of the yeasts (I don't
know about the LBs in this regard) and so it is best to store some
unsalted starter in whatever form you prefer. I store mine as about a
quarter cup of 100% flour and water. There are implications though.
The hydration at which the starter is stored affects the proportion of
yeasts to LB.

I have not looked at the Ortiz book in many years, but if I recall
correctly, it is just one of many re-writes of the Billheux et. al.
book called Special & Decorative Breads.

Have fun,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 20:58:35 +0800, James >
wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> You are stumbling into one of the problems with the Ortiz book. He
>> uses all these terms in ways that are incredibly confusing. My
>> suggestion is that you give his recipe a try substituting the word
>> "dough" in your mind for all his (inappropriately) borrowed French.
>> You are likely to get a pleasant surprise...
>
>Thanks for the advice Kenneth. I wondered if I wasn't getting too hung
>up on the terminology. Is it generally the case that one can keep a bit
>of old dough and use it as a starter for the next batch as effectively
>as if one had kept a bit of the actual starter, or does the addition of
>salt inhibit the formation of more yeast? In both cases, does the
>"dough" need to be refreshed and left for 6-8 hours?
>
>The other thing that irks me about the book is that the "home baker"
>section recipes don't have metric measurements or baker's percentages,
>and the professional ones at the back seem to differ from the domestic
>ones, even when they are meant to refer to the same bread. I prefer to
>weight out my ingredients so it takes a big leap of faith for me to just
>start scooping out cups of flour, teaspoons of yeast etc. etc.
>
>Cheers,
>
>james

Hey James,

The addition of salt does inhibit the growth of the yeasts (I don't
know about the LBs in this regard) and so it is best to store some
unsalted starter in whatever form you prefer. I store mine as about a
quarter cup of 100% flour and water. There are implications though.
The hydration at which the starter is stored affects the proportion of
yeasts to LB.

I have not looked at the Ortiz book in many years, but if I recall
correctly, it is just one of many re-writes of the Billheux et. al.
book called Special & Decorative Breads.

Have fun,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I think I saw the definitions u are looking for at this adress:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html

Under "Names in use for sourdoughs in various stages".

definitions in 4 languages and explained at the same time.

Hope this helps. :-)


James > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
> please be gentle with me.
>
> I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
> some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
> and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
> sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
> thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
> good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
> use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
> who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
> tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.
>
> The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
> Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
> refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> from? Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> refreshment I have a Starter?
>
> Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?
>
> Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> in the first step of the recipe?
>
> Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
> just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.
>
> Thanks,
>
> james

I think I saw the definitions u are looking for at this adress:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html

Under "Names in use for sourdoughs in various stages".

definitions in 4 languages and explained at the same time.

Hope this helps. :-)


James > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
> please be gentle with me.
>
> I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
> some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
> and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
> sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
> thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
> good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
> use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
> who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
> tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.
>
> The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
> Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
> refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> from? Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> refreshment I have a Starter?
>
> Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?
>
> Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> in the first step of the recipe?
>
> Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
> just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.
>
> Thanks,
>
> james

I think I saw the definitions u are looking for at this adress:

http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html

Under "Names in use for sourdoughs in various stages".

definitions in 4 languages and explained at the same time.

Hope this helps. :-)


James > wrote in message >...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I've been lurking here for a little while and this is my first post so
> please be gentle with me.
>
> I've been doing some bread baking over the last 6 months and have had
> some quite good success with both direct method and biga-style breads,
> and now I want to take the plunge and start experimenting with
> sourdough. I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz and was
> thinking that his recipe for Pane Francese Naturale (p146) might be a
> good one for my first effort. Unfortunately I'm a little confused by his
> use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> questions are fairly specific to this recipe so it will help if someone
> who has this book could give me some pointers, otherwise some general
> tips on soughdough terminology might be of use.
>
> The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> don't really get what he's talking about. I am considering making the
> Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments. After the 2nd
> refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> from? Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> refreshment I have a Starter?
>
> Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?
>
> Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> batch, however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> in the first step of the recipe?
>
> Sorry for the long-winded question. I'm not particularly dim-witted - I
> just want to get the whole thing straight before I start.
>
> Thanks,
>
> james

James wrote:
>
> I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz...
>

It is a nice book, but it is better read as a travel and
adventure story rather than a book for bread beginners. The
terminology as well as the measurments are not consistant and in
places a lot of background knowledge is presumed. You will enjoy
the book a lot more once you have experience as a sourdough baker
and can devine from the context of the story the actual meaning
of the terms used.



>... use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> questions are fairly specific to this recipe

The chart you were referred to elsewhere on this thread is a good
one. A way to help keep this straight in your mind is to recall
that one meaning of the word "chef" is "first". Whenever the
term chef is used it means the first step in a particular recipe
or method. It does not matter if the chef is started from
scratch or is a lump of dough held back from a previous bake. if
it is first step preparing the dough, it is called the chef.
American usage, where we tend to keep liquid cultures, we just
call it generically "starter"

>
> The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> don't really get what he's talking about.

In this particular recipe he means the chef has been refreshed
and then grown on and then that"levain" has been refreshed to
become a "starter" and he is suggesting using that "starter" 8 to
10 hours after that last refreshment. The age of the chef , in
this case, as long as it is alive and strong, is not important.


> I am considering making the
> Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments.

I have never been able to make a decent starter using this
method. I really think you should try a different way.

> After the 2nd
> refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> from?

That is the way I read it.


> Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> refreshment I have a Starter?

Almost, in this recipe, If you use his terminology. The other
thing is, if you start from just flour and water, it is not
really a Chef until it is growing and has been refreshed a few
times to become a working "chef" When you begin with just flour
and water ( cumin?) you don't move on to the levain stage (his
terms) until the chef is working.
>
> Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another Starter?

Well, the author is trying to describe building a starter from a
small amount in stages to an amount that will raise a loaf of
bread and has used different terms to describe the stages of
growth. He confuses his audience in his attempt to be clear. It
would be better, perhaps, if the definition of terms was in the
beginning of the book and they were used consistantly. However
not all methods or bakers lend themselves to that approach.
>
> Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> batch,

You can reserve some dough for the next bake at the scaling step
or some prefer to hold back a lump of dough before the salt is
added. You can keep it as is, but I prefer to knead in som extra
flour because a stiff dough will keep longer.


> however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> in the first step of the recipe?

If your dough that you held backs only a few days old you can
regard it as the chef for your new batch of bread. If you have
been storing the held back dough for some time , it is best to
refresh the saved dough and after it grows on consider that
result to be the chef.


Regards,

Charles
-
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Just wrote:

> I think I saw the definitions u are looking for at this adress:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html

Thanks for the reference. It's going to take some time to read and
digest all the information on this site - it's quite a goldmine of
information.

Cheers,

james

Wow, thanks for the lengthy reply Charles. It's really helpful. I've
also got Maggie Glezer's book, plus with all the information on the net
it looks like there's lots of reading to do. But of course I can't wait
to get in there and try stuff as well.

You wrote:

> I have never been able to make a decent starter using this
> method. I really think you should try a different way.

Oh no, this is bad news since I made a little walnut-sized piece of
dough on Friday night and have been sitting watching it since then,
willing it to do something :-) OK, not quite watching it *all* the time
but I'm sure you know what I mean. So far it resembles a walnut in more
ways than one - it has a crust which is more like a shell, and is dark
brown to boot. I'll pinch a bit off the crust tonight or tomorrow night
and see if it's "spongy" inside. But I may follow your advice and try
another one too. I've got this week off work and one of my plans was to
do some experimenting with sourdoug starters and such.

Cheers,

james

James wrote:
>
>
>
> one of my plans was to
> do some experimenting with sourdoug starters and such.
>
>
Other than getting a bit of an established starter from someone,
the most reliable way to get a homebrew starter going is to use
rye flour or meal and then move it over to wheat once it gets
going. Some will argue for fresh ground or even fresh ground and
organic, but as long as it doesn't smell bad any rye should work.

Then , on the other hand, Joe Ortiz's method may work well for
you.

Good luck with your sourdough.

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... Then , on the other hand, Joe Ortiz's method may work well for
> you ...

I had his book when I started trying starter catching. Nothing worked.
Now anything works. That is where the "nook and cranny" theory
comes in. Once your (or Joe's) nooks and crannies get loaded up with
airborne contamination from doughmaking, you (or Joe) can inoculate a=20
starting culture just by raising mild breezes in your kitchen (or =
bakery).

My successes did not begin until I got a culture through the mail. (But
it's true that I had not been tipped off about the efficacy of =
whole-grain
flours for that purpose.)

Still I'd say, to start, a known culture is the way to go.

(The nook-and-cranny theory seems to support the spore-formation
theory. My hedge on that would be maybe so, but not necessarily
when you want.) (Some yeasts are known to sporulate under some
circumstances, and SD bacteria are thought to be capable of transforming
to resistant forms. But dried sourdough cultures are undependably
viable through the ages, and moist refrigerated ones may not survive
a year.)

---
DickA

Hello Dick,

Thanks for replying...

Dick Adams wrote:

> I had his book when I started trying starter catching. Nothing worked.
> Now anything works. That is where the "nook and cranny" theory
> comes in. Once your (or Joe's) nooks and crannies get loaded up with
> airborne contamination from doughmaking, you (or Joe) can inoculate a
> starting culture just by raising mild breezes in your kitchen (or bakery).

Interesting stuff. I'm really hoping that there's lots of wild yeast
floating around my kitchen to kick my starter off. It's looking kind of
promising so far. Yesterday I got curious so I prised it off the bottom
of the bowl and looked at it... nothing much to see. Then I put it back
in the bowl and checked on it a few hours later, and it had sprouted up
like a mushroom - the flat area where it had been resting on the bowl
didn't have a crust on it, and my prising it off the bowl broke the
seal, so to speak, and let whatever was going on inside expand to the
point where it lifted the rest of the dough off the bowl. This morning I
peeled the crust off it and fed it with some more flour, so here's hoping.

> My successes did not begin until I got a culture through the mail. (But
> it's true that I had not been tipped off about the efficacy of whole-grain
> flours for that purpose.)

I'm not sure how to go about getting one of these into the country. I'm
in Australia and our quarantine laws (esp. in Western Australia, where I
am) are very strict, to protect our local flora and fauna. If you've
ever visited here you'll know that they make you throw any food products
into a rubbish bin when you get off the plane - even when travelling
from another Australian state! I'm not sure whether sourdough starters
will fall into the category of foodstuffs. Any other West Aussies read
this group who've managed to import a starter?

There is, however, a bakery nearby who sells quite good sourdoughs...
perhaps I will go visit them and see if they'll give/sell me a bit of
their starter.

Regards,

james

"James" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I'm really hoping that there's lots of wild yeast ...

My point was that it is more likely to find sourdough yeasts
in your kitchen after you have had some there in the first place.

> ... This morning I peeled the crust off it and fed it with some more=20
> flour, so here's hoping. ...

Can't guess what you are doing. It should not crust. Usual way is=20
batter-consistency, fed when it begins frothing. Can be covered to=20
prevent drying.

> There is, however, a bakery nearby who sells quite good sourdoughs...=20
> perhaps I will go visit them and see if they'll give/sell me a bit of=20
> their starter.

Sounds like a good idea. In the meantime, maybe some Aussies=20
will kick in. US suppliers may ship abroad. For example, ask the=20
Volunteer at www.carlsfriends.org.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

On 8/23/04 2:10 AM, "James" > wrote:

> Hello Dick,
>
> Thanks for replying...
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> I had his book when I started trying starter catching. Nothing worked.
>> Now anything works. That is where the "nook and cranny" theory
>> comes in. Once your (or Joe's) nooks and crannies get loaded up with
>> airborne contamination from doughmaking, you (or Joe) can inoculate a
>> starting culture just by raising mild breezes in your kitchen (or bakery).
>
> Interesting stuff. I'm really hoping that there's lots of wild yeast
> floating around my kitchen to kick my starter off. It's looking kind of
> promising so far. Yesterday I got curious so I prised it off the bottom
> of the bowl and looked at it... nothing much to see. Then I put it back
> in the bowl and checked on it a few hours later, and it had sprouted up
> like a mushroom - the flat area where it had been resting on the bowl
> didn't have a crust on it, and my prising it off the bowl broke the
> seal, so to speak, and let whatever was going on inside expand to the
> point where it lifted the rest of the dough off the bowl. This morning I
> peeled the crust off it and fed it with some more flour, so here's hoping.
>
>> My successes did not begin until I got a culture through the mail. (But
>> it's true that I had not been tipped off about the efficacy of whole-grain
>> flours for that purpose.)
>
> I'm not sure how to go about getting one of these into the country. I'm
> in Australia and our quarantine laws (esp. in Western Australia, where I
> am) are very strict, to protect our local flora and fauna. If you've
> ever visited here you'll know that they make you throw any food products
> into a rubbish bin when you get off the plane - even when travelling
> from another Australian state! I'm not sure whether sourdough starters
> will fall into the category of foodstuffs. Any other West Aussies read
> this group who've managed to import a starter?
>
> There is, however, a bakery nearby who sells quite good sourdoughs...
> perhaps I will go visit them and see if they'll give/sell me a bit of
> their starter.
>
> Regards,
>
> james

James,

I remembered reading about an Australian culture sold here in the US (see
link that follows):

http://www.sourdo.com/tasmanian.html

Seems to me that some email correspondence with the sellers or the Tasmanian
individual might network you along. I hope the local bakery is willing to
help.

Good luck!

Will



> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"James" > wrote in message
...

>
> I'm not sure how to go about getting one of these into the country. I'm
> in Australia and our quarantine laws (esp. in Western Australia, where I
> am) are very strict,

You have my sympathy, James. I once lived in WA (Dalkeith) and experienced
the food "police" on many occasions.
I used Ortiz's method to make my starter/chef and it is now very strong, in
fact I make Dick's "Billowy SD loaves" following his schedule. It's an
excellent recipe, by the way.
I follow Ortiz's feeding schedule translated into grams/mls using 100g flour
and 60mls of water (actually, his translate to 130g and 80ml but the
proportions are +/- the same). Therefore, I suggest that you build up the
strength of your starter/chef by feeding it several times, discarding half
each time.
HTH
Graham

graham wrote:

> You have my sympathy, James. I once lived in WA (Dalkeith) and experienced
> the food "police" on many occasions.

That's an amazing coincidence as that's where I grew up. Have since
moved to a slightly less salubrious locale, but my mother still lives there.

> Therefore, I suggest that you build up the
> strength of your starter/chef by feeding it several times, discarding half
> each time.

Well so far it seems to be doing ok. After the second refreshment it's
expanded quite nicely, to the point where it's starting to crack the
crust. I'll de-crust and feed it again later today.

Cheers,

james

"James" > wrote in message
...
....
> Well so far it seems to be doing ok. After the second refreshment it's
> expanded quite nicely, to the point where it's starting to crack the
> crust. I'll de-crust and feed it again later today.

Crust? In your starter? What crust?

Now *I'm* confused! (:-o)!


Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

>
> Cheers,
>
> james

"Dusty" > wrote in message
...
> "James" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > Well so far it seems to be doing ok. After the second refreshment it's
> > expanded quite nicely, to the point where it's starting to crack the
> > crust. I'll de-crust and feed it again later today.
>
> Crust? In your starter? What crust?
>
> Now *I'm* confused! (:-o)!
>
Ortiz's recipe is a for a low hydration chef. You mix a small quantity of
flour with enough water to make a stiff dough-ball, not much bigger than a
walnut. You leave it covered for 3 days or so, peel off the crust and
refresh the "core" at about a 60% hydration level, forming another ball.
Graham

Ah, ha! I *love* reading here...one can learn something new every day.

Thanks, Graham.

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"graham" > wrote in message
news:vDwWc.200514$gE.42449@pd7tw3no...
....
> > Crust? In your starter? What crust?
> >
> > Now *I'm* confused! (:-o)!
> >
> Ortiz's recipe is a for a low hydration chef. You mix a small quantity of
> flour with enough water to make a stiff dough-ball, not much bigger than a
> walnut. You leave it covered for 3 days or so, peel off the crust and
> refresh the "core" at about a 60% hydration level, forming another ball.
> Graham
>
>

Ah, ha! I *love* reading here...one can learn something new every day.

Thanks, Graham.

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
"graham" > wrote in message
news:vDwWc.200514$gE.42449@pd7tw3no...
....
> > Crust? In your starter? What crust?
> >
> > Now *I'm* confused! (:-o)!
> >
> Ortiz's recipe is a for a low hydration chef. You mix a small quantity of
> flour with enough water to make a stiff dough-ball, not much bigger than a
> walnut. You leave it covered for 3 days or so, peel off the crust and
> refresh the "core" at about a 60% hydration level, forming another ball.
> Graham
>
>

graham wrote:

> I follow Ortiz's feeding schedule translated into grams/mls using 100g flour
> and 60mls of water (actually, his translate to 130g and 80ml but the
> proportions are +/- the same). Therefore, I suggest that you build up the
> strength of your starter/chef by feeding it several times, discarding half
> each time.

Thanks for the advice. Yesterday I gave my starter its 2nd refreshment
and after 12 hours nothing much was happening. I decided to leave it
overnight (nights are quite cool here at the moment, esp. once the
heating is turned off). This morning still not a lot had happened, but I
picked off the crust and gave it another cup of flour and some water.
Now after 4 hours it seems to be expanding quite well. It doesn't seem
to have a "yeasty" smell yet, but so far smells kind of sickly sweet.
Not sure if that's normal or not.

My question to you is, how long should I continue with the regime
halving the starter and adding 1 cup of flour that you suggest? Does the
rule that the starter is ready when it expands to 4x it's volume in <8
hours apply? And how do I know when it's time to feed it? Finally, once
(if ever) it's deemed to be "ready", what's the best way to keep it
going? Would I cut a bit off and keep it in the fridge, taking it out to
feed it every so often?

Hope I'm not asking too many questions!

Thanks again,

james

graham wrote:

> I follow Ortiz's feeding schedule translated into grams/mls using 100g flour
> and 60mls of water (actually, his translate to 130g and 80ml but the
> proportions are +/- the same). Therefore, I suggest that you build up the
> strength of your starter/chef by feeding it several times, discarding half
> each time.

Thanks for the advice. Yesterday I gave my starter its 2nd refreshment
and after 12 hours nothing much was happening. I decided to leave it
overnight (nights are quite cool here at the moment, esp. once the
heating is turned off). This morning still not a lot had happened, but I
picked off the crust and gave it another cup of flour and some water.
Now after 4 hours it seems to be expanding quite well. It doesn't seem
to have a "yeasty" smell yet, but so far smells kind of sickly sweet.
Not sure if that's normal or not.

My question to you is, how long should I continue with the regime
halving the starter and adding 1 cup of flour that you suggest? Does the
rule that the starter is ready when it expands to 4x it's volume in <8
hours apply? And how do I know when it's time to feed it? Finally, once
(if ever) it's deemed to be "ready", what's the best way to keep it
going? Would I cut a bit off and keep it in the fridge, taking it out to
feed it every so often?

Hope I'm not asking too many questions!

Thanks again,

james

James, if you're at all interested, drop me a note off-list with your snail
mail addy...and I'll send you bit of starter another fellow on this list
sent me...

This one will grow exponentially. Depending on the temperature, you should
be able to quadruple a boule in 3 hours or so...

Regards,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

"James" > wrote in message
...
> graham wrote:
>
> > I follow Ortiz's feeding schedule translated into grams/mls using 100g
flour
> > and 60mls of water (actually, his translate to 130g and 80ml but the
> > proportions are +/- the same). Therefore, I suggest that you build up
the
> > strength of your starter/chef by feeding it several times, discarding
half
> > each time.
>
> Thanks for the advice. Yesterday I gave my starter its 2nd refreshment
> and after 12 hours nothing much was happening. I decided to leave it
> overnight (nights are quite cool here at the moment, esp. once the
> heating is turned off). This morning still not a lot had happened, but I
> picked off the crust and gave it another cup of flour and some water.
> Now after 4 hours it seems to be expanding quite well. It doesn't seem
> to have a "yeasty" smell yet, but so far smells kind of sickly sweet.
> Not sure if that's normal or not.
>
> My question to you is, how long should I continue with the regime
> halving the starter and adding 1 cup of flour that you suggest? Does the
> rule that the starter is ready when it expands to 4x it's volume in <8
> hours apply? And how do I know when it's time to feed it? Finally, once
> (if ever) it's deemed to be "ready", what's the best way to keep it
> going? Would I cut a bit off and keep it in the fridge, taking it out to
> feed it every so often?
>
> Hope I'm not asking too many questions!
>
> Thanks again,
>
> james

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> James wrote:
> >
> > I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz...
> >
>
> It is a nice book, but it is better read as a travel and
> adventure story rather than a book for bread beginners. The
> terminology as well as the measurments are not consistant and in
> places a lot of background knowledge is presumed. You will enjoy
> the book a lot more once you have experience as a sourdough baker
> and can devine from the context of the story the actual meaning
> of the terms used.
>
>
>
> >... use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> > questions are fairly specific to this recipe
>
> The chart you were referred to elsewhere on this thread is a good
> one. A way to help keep this straight in your mind is to recall
> that one meaning of the word "chef" is "first". Whenever the
> term chef is used it means the first step in a particular recipe
> or method. It does not matter if the chef is started from
> scratch or is a lump of dough held back from a previous bake. if
> it is first step preparing the dough, it is called the chef.
> American usage, where we tend to keep liquid cultures, we just
> call it generically "starter"
>
> >
> > The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> > however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> > don't really get what he's talking about.
>
> In this particular recipe he means the chef has been refreshed
> and then grown on and then that"levain" has been refreshed to
> become a "starter" and he is suggesting using that "starter" 8 to
> 10 hours after that last refreshment. The age of the chef , in
> this case, as long as it is alive and strong, is not important.
>
>
> > I am considering making the
> > Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments.
>
> I have never been able to make a decent starter using this
> method. I really think you should try a different way.
>
> > After the 2nd
> > refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> > this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> > from?
>
> That is the way I read it.
>
>
> > Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> > Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> > refreshment I have a Starter?
>
> Almost, in this recipe, If you use his terminology. The other
> thing is, if you start from just flour and water, it is not
> really a Chef until it is growing and has been refreshed a few
> times to become a working "chef" When you begin with just flour
> and water ( cumin?) you don't move on to the levain stage (his
> terms) until the chef is working.
> >
> > Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> > sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> > why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another
Starter?
>
> Well, the author is trying to describe building a starter from a
> small amount in stages to an amount that will raise a loaf of
> bread and has used different terms to describe the stages of
> growth. He confuses his audience in his attempt to be clear. It
> would be better, perhaps, if the definition of terms was in the
> beginning of the book and they were used consistantly. However
> not all methods or bakers lend themselves to that approach.
> >
> > Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> > that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> > batch,
>
> You can reserve some dough for the next bake at the scaling step
> or some prefer to hold back a lump of dough before the salt is
> added. You can keep it as is, but I prefer to knead in som extra
> flour because a stiff dough will keep longer.
>
>
> > however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> > about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> > really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> > the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> > in the first step of the recipe?
>
> If your dough that you held backs only a few days old you can
> regard it as the chef for your new batch of bread. If you have
> been storing the held back dough for some time , it is best to
> refresh the saved dough and after it grows on consider that
> result to be the chef.
>
>
Regarding the last paragraph: this dough you regard as the chef that has
been held back only a few days which is added to the dough, does it REPLACE
a starter and if it does replace a starter, and one has a recipe which
includes a starter, does it have to be replaced with the exact amount,
weight for weight? Putting my question another way, if one has a chef the
size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called
for in the recipe. Gee, I hope I am clear on this question, I've waited a
long time to ask it.
Thanks,
Dee

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> James wrote:
> >
> > I've been using The Village Baker by Joe Ortiz...
> >
>
> It is a nice book, but it is better read as a travel and
> adventure story rather than a book for bread beginners. The
> terminology as well as the measurments are not consistant and in
> places a lot of background knowledge is presumed. You will enjoy
> the book a lot more once you have experience as a sourdough baker
> and can devine from the context of the story the actual meaning
> of the terms used.
>
>
>
> >... use of the terms Chef, Levain and (more generically) Starter. My
> > questions are fairly specific to this recipe
>
> The chart you were referred to elsewhere on this thread is a good
> one. A way to help keep this straight in your mind is to recall
> that one meaning of the word "chef" is "first". Whenever the
> term chef is used it means the first step in a particular recipe
> or method. It does not matter if the chef is started from
> scratch or is a lump of dough held back from a previous bake. if
> it is first step preparing the dough, it is called the chef.
> American usage, where we tend to keep liquid cultures, we just
> call it generically "starter"
>
> >
> > The recipe calls for a "starter" which is between 8 and 10 hours old,
> > however it seems like all starters are going to be 3-5 days old, so I
> > don't really get what he's talking about.
>
> In this particular recipe he means the chef has been refreshed
> and then grown on and then that"levain" has been refreshed to
> become a "starter" and he is suggesting using that "starter" 8 to
> 10 hours after that last refreshment. The age of the chef , in
> this case, as long as it is alive and strong, is not important.
>
>
> > I am considering making the
> > Basic Sourdough Starter (p31), which has two refreshments.
>
> I have never been able to make a decent starter using this
> method. I really think you should try a different way.
>
> > After the 2nd
> > refreshment the recipe says to wait for 8-12 hours before using it... is
> > this where the idea of the "starter being between 8-10 hours old comes
> > from?
>
> That is the way I read it.
>
>
> > Am I right in assuming that when I first mix the dough I have a
> > Chef, after the 1st refreshment I have a Levain, and after the 2nd
> > refreshment I have a Starter?
>
> Almost, in this recipe, If you use his terminology. The other
> thing is, if you start from just flour and water, it is not
> really a Chef until it is growing and has been refreshed a few
> times to become a working "chef" When you begin with just flour
> and water ( cumin?) you don't move on to the levain stage (his
> terms) until the chef is working.
> >
> > Also, the recipe itself is divided into Chef, Levain and Dough
> > sections... how is it that refreshing the Starter produces a Chef, and
> > why is it after refreshing the Chef I get a dough, not just another
Starter?
>
> Well, the author is trying to describe building a starter from a
> small amount in stages to an amount that will raise a loaf of
> bread and has used different terms to describe the stages of
> growth. He confuses his audience in his attempt to be clear. It
> would be better, perhaps, if the definition of terms was in the
> beginning of the book and they were used consistantly. However
> not all methods or bakers lend themselves to that approach.
> >
> > Finally, the recipe talks about taking some of the dough (I assume
> > that's the dough at the stage of scaling) and put it aside for the next
> > batch,
>
> You can reserve some dough for the next bake at the scaling step
> or some prefer to hold back a lump of dough before the salt is
> added. You can keep it as is, but I prefer to knead in som extra
> flour because a stiff dough will keep longer.
>
>
> > however the side-bar (entitled "Variation") of the recipe talks
> > about "if you've been keeping the starter in the freezer". Does it
> > really mean the portion of the dough that I've reserved? If I thaw out
> > the dough, refresh it, and wait for 8 hours, can I use it as the starter
> > in the first step of the recipe?
>
> If your dough that you held backs only a few days old you can
> regard it as the chef for your new batch of bread. If you have
> been storing the held back dough for some time , it is best to
> refresh the saved dough and after it grows on consider that
> result to be the chef.
>
>
Regarding the last paragraph: this dough you regard as the chef that has
been held back only a few days which is added to the dough, does it REPLACE
a starter and if it does replace a starter, and one has a recipe which
includes a starter, does it have to be replaced with the exact amount,
weight for weight? Putting my question another way, if one has a chef the
size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called
for in the recipe. Gee, I hope I am clear on this question, I've waited a
long time to ask it.
Thanks,
Dee

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
<deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>if one has a chef the
>size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
>called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called
>for in the recipe.

Hi Dee,

The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
specifics of its stage of development.)

The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
particular recipe.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
<deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>if one has a chef the
>size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
>called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called
>for in the recipe.

Hi Dee,

The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
specifics of its stage of development.)

The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
particular recipe.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Dee Randall wrote:

>
> ... this dough you regard as the chef that has
> been held back only a few days which is added to the dough, does it REPLACE
> a starter

In commom American usage (CAU), the chef is a starter. We tend
to call any sourdough culture, "starter" This is particularly
true when the culture is the one that is stored or used to begin
a bread recipe. The "chef" is simply starter stored as a low
hydration dough or paste.

In an unfortunate usage of terms, commercial Yeast method bakers
also use the word "starter." They use the term when part or all
of the yeast and part of the flour and liquid are mixed and
allowed to ferment for a while before the remainder of the flour
and any other ingredients are added to make the final dough.
This has caused some bakers and book authors to regard any
fermenting mixture stage just before all the final dough
ingredients are added as *starter*. They use that term
regardless wether the fermentation is caused by yeast or by
sourdough culture.

This is probaly why the Ortiz three stage recipe in question
went:

Chef - Levain - starter - dough

Clarity , for a novice baker, woud be better served if he called
the stages:

Chef - levain - second stage levain - dough


We could call the stages:

Starter - starter- starter - dough or better:

Starter - second stage starter - third stage starter - dough, or
my chice:

Starter - scond starter - sponge - dough

However, I have no hope of any agreement on terminology.

> ... and if it does replace a starter, and one has a recipe which
> includes a starter, does it have to be replaced with the exact amount,
> weight for weight? Putting my question another way, if one has a chef the
> size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
> called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called

The walnut sized chef or starter works with a three stage
recipe. If you have a one or two stage recipe, I recommend that
you grow the chef to the amount of starter called for in the
first stage of your recipe. In other words, unless you have a
three or more stage recipe, consider the chef as just seed
culture to grow the amount of the first stage starter needed for
your dough.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Dee Randall wrote:

>
> ... this dough you regard as the chef that has
> been held back only a few days which is added to the dough, does it REPLACE
> a starter

In commom American usage (CAU), the chef is a starter. We tend
to call any sourdough culture, "starter" This is particularly
true when the culture is the one that is stored or used to begin
a bread recipe. The "chef" is simply starter stored as a low
hydration dough or paste.

In an unfortunate usage of terms, commercial Yeast method bakers
also use the word "starter." They use the term when part or all
of the yeast and part of the flour and liquid are mixed and
allowed to ferment for a while before the remainder of the flour
and any other ingredients are added to make the final dough.
This has caused some bakers and book authors to regard any
fermenting mixture stage just before all the final dough
ingredients are added as *starter*. They use that term
regardless wether the fermentation is caused by yeast or by
sourdough culture.

This is probaly why the Ortiz three stage recipe in question
went:

Chef - Levain - starter - dough

Clarity , for a novice baker, woud be better served if he called
the stages:

Chef - levain - second stage levain - dough


We could call the stages:

Starter - starter- starter - dough or better:

Starter - second stage starter - third stage starter - dough, or
my chice:

Starter - scond starter - sponge - dough

However, I have no hope of any agreement on terminology.

> ... and if it does replace a starter, and one has a recipe which
> includes a starter, does it have to be replaced with the exact amount,
> weight for weight? Putting my question another way, if one has a chef the
> size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
> called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter called

The walnut sized chef or starter works with a three stage
recipe. If you have a one or two stage recipe, I recommend that
you grow the chef to the amount of starter called for in the
first stage of your recipe. In other words, unless you have a
three or more stage recipe, consider the chef as just seed
culture to grow the amount of the first stage starter needed for
your dough.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry > wrote in message >...

>
> In an unfortunate usage of terms, commercial Yeast method bakers
> also use the word "starter." They use the term when part or all
> of the yeast and part of the flour and liquid are mixed and
> allowed to ferment for a while before the remainder of the flour
> and any other ingredients are added to make the final dough.
> This has caused some bakers and book authors to regard any
> fermenting mixture stage just before all the final dough
> ingredients are added as *starter*. They use that term
> regardless wether the fermentation is caused by yeast or by
> sourdough culture.

Charles you really understood these baking terms well.......
But it is unfortunate that.....
I still see a lot of home and commercial bakers who cannot
differentiate between starter, sponges, chef , biga and poolish and
can call their material by what ever names they are used to.
IMO any culture that originates from true sourdough should be called
a starter and a chef can be another term that is related to it. due to
cultural origin.
If you want to use baker's yeast as the seed, then that can be called
a sponge, biga or poolish which have their own characteristics as
well.
They should not be confused with the starter, a term that rightfullly
belongs to the real sourdough culture.
It is just lamentable that some members of the related breadmaking
group the alt. bread. recipes still inisit on following their
favorinte author's erroneous terminology ( and call the bakers yeast
derived culture starter))who incidentally not even a qualified baker
by profession but just caught by the baking bug in her travels. to
Italian bakeries.
..
Roy

Charles Perry > wrote in message >...

>
> In an unfortunate usage of terms, commercial Yeast method bakers
> also use the word "starter." They use the term when part or all
> of the yeast and part of the flour and liquid are mixed and
> allowed to ferment for a while before the remainder of the flour
> and any other ingredients are added to make the final dough.
> This has caused some bakers and book authors to regard any
> fermenting mixture stage just before all the final dough
> ingredients are added as *starter*. They use that term
> regardless wether the fermentation is caused by yeast or by
> sourdough culture.

Charles you really understood these baking terms well.......
But it is unfortunate that.....
I still see a lot of home and commercial bakers who cannot
differentiate between starter, sponges, chef , biga and poolish and
can call their material by what ever names they are used to.
IMO any culture that originates from true sourdough should be called
a starter and a chef can be another term that is related to it. due to
cultural origin.
If you want to use baker's yeast as the seed, then that can be called
a sponge, biga or poolish which have their own characteristics as
well.
They should not be confused with the starter, a term that rightfullly
belongs to the real sourdough culture.
It is just lamentable that some members of the related breadmaking
group the alt. bread. recipes still inisit on following their
favorinte author's erroneous terminology ( and call the bakers yeast
derived culture starter))who incidentally not even a qualified baker
by profession but just caught by the baking bug in her travels. to
Italian bakeries.
..
Roy

Roy Basan wrote:

> It is just lamentable that some members of the related breadmaking
> group the alt. bread. recipes still inisit on following their
> favorinte author's erroneous terminology ( and call the bakers yeast
> derived culture starter))

Does this culture start the process?

Case closed.

B/

Roy Basan wrote:

> It is just lamentable that some members of the related breadmaking
> group the alt. bread. recipes still inisit on following their
> favorinte author's erroneous terminology ( and call the bakers yeast
> derived culture starter))

Does this culture start the process?

Case closed.

B/

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
> <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
>
> >if one has a chef the
> >size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
> >called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter
called
> >for in the recipe.
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
> specifics of its stage of development.)
>
> The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
> particular recipe.
>
OK, using your answer and terminology:
So the "small amount of " starter (the chef) would be used to make more
starter, right? NOW, when bakers talk about adding the chef (which is a
small amount of starter [and I'm assuming that this is left over from
yesterday's baking or two or whatever) to their dough to make bread, this is
not in actuality true, but they actually use this chef to make MORE
starter to add to their dough to make bread -- NOW, how do they do this in
one day?

Thanks,
Dee

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
> <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
>
> >if one has a chef the
> >size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
> >called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter
called
> >for in the recipe.
>
> Hi Dee,
>
> The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
> specifics of its stage of development.)
>
> The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
> particular recipe.
>
OK, using your answer and terminology:
So the "small amount of " starter (the chef) would be used to make more
starter, right? NOW, when bakers talk about adding the chef (which is a
small amount of starter [and I'm assuming that this is left over from
yesterday's baking or two or whatever) to their dough to make bread, this is
not in actuality true, but they actually use this chef to make MORE
starter to add to their dough to make bread -- NOW, how do they do this in
one day?

Thanks,
Dee

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:57:56 -0400, "Dee Randall"
<deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 02:34:22 -0400, "Dee Randall"
>> <deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:
>>
>> >if one has a chef the
>> >size of a walnut, would this chef be used in place of a starter that was
>> >called for in the recipe, or would it be IN ADDITION to the starter
>called
>> >for in the recipe.
>>
>> Hi Dee,
>>
>> The chef IS (a small amount of) the starter. (Ignoring here the
>> specifics of its stage of development.)
>>
>> The chef would be used to make as much starter as you need for a
>> particular recipe.
>>
>OK, using your answer and terminology:
>So the "small amount of " starter (the chef) would be used to make more
>starter, right? NOW, when bakers talk about adding the chef (which is a
>small amount of starter [and I'm assuming that this is left over from
>yesterday's baking or two or whatever) to their dough to make bread, this is
>not in actuality true, but they actually use this chef to make MORE
>starter to add to their dough to make bread -- NOW, how do they do this in
>one day?
>
>Thanks,
>Dee
>

Hi Dee,

Why do you assume that they do it in one day? Often, it takes longer.

Depending on the temperatures though, it is certainly possible to do
it in one day.

Why don't you just follow any of the recipes posted here, in the FAQs,
on sites that folks who post here offer, or in the many books that are
available?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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