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Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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loaf drying out while proofing
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loaf drying out while proofing
Phil wrote: > > Does anyone know how to prevent a boule from drying out whilst > > tiny fissures everywhere. > Well the cheapest way is to take a plastic bag from the grocery store and put the baksket in the bag and seal the top with a twist tie. Enjoy your crackly crust. People will now be writing you saying that they did what you did and their crust did not get that cool look. Regards, Charles Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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loaf drying out while proofing
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 04:16:48 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote: >On 21 Jul 2004 01:01:26 -0700, (Phil) wrote: > >>> It is supposed to (slightly) dry out the dough that is in contact with >>> the fabric producing the "leathery" texture that you describe. That >>> leathery skin allows the baker to slash the (otherwise) more moist and >>> tender dough producing a pleasing result in the surface of the >>> finished loaf. >> >>But, since the dough that is in contact with the "bottom" of the >>banneton becomes the top of the loaf, can't the dryness inhibit oven >>spring? I know oven spring isn't the holy grail of sourdough baking, >>but I feel like I should be getting *some*, what with a 500 degree >>oven, a baking stone, and (what I think to be) proper proofing. >> >>Phil Reed > >Hi Phil, > >No, I don't believe that the very slight drying of that part of the >loaf in contact with the fabric inhibits oven spring at all. > >All the best, Hello again, I neglected to add: If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. Is that the problem you are having? All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
From what I understand, the phenomenon of "oven spring" consists of 3
components (listed in no particular order): 1) The expulsion of dissolved CO2 out of solution 2) The expansion of CO2 pockets 3) The increase in yeast activity - Steve Brandt "Phil" > wrote in message om... > I haven't read much about oven spring, and why it happens. But it > seems to me (with my limited chemistry and physics backgroung) that > the co2 "bubbles" in the crust made during proofing simply expand > because co2 will "expand" (is that the right word?) when heated. I > have a hard time believing that oven spring is caused by some last > minute co2 producing reaction from the yeast because to the heat of > the oven. |
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loaf drying out while proofing
From what I understand, the phenomenon of "oven spring" consists of 3
components (listed in no particular order): 1) The expulsion of dissolved CO2 out of solution 2) The expansion of CO2 pockets 3) The increase in yeast activity - Steve Brandt "Phil" > wrote in message om... > I haven't read much about oven spring, and why it happens. But it > seems to me (with my limited chemistry and physics backgroung) that > the co2 "bubbles" in the crust made during proofing simply expand > because co2 will "expand" (is that the right word?) when heated. I > have a hard time believing that oven spring is caused by some last > minute co2 producing reaction from the yeast because to the heat of > the oven. |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On 7/21/04 1:16 PM, "Phil" > wrote:
> Kenneth > wrote >> I neglected to add: >> >> If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the >> loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. >> >> Is that the problem you are having? > > No, not really. It's just that I'm not getting much oven spring. The > loaf pretty much stays the same size as when I put it in the oven at > the beginning of the bake. It's not a big deal, the crumb is decent > and the bread tastes good, but...I feel like i'm doing something > wrong. Possibly proofing too long? <snip> Could be you're proofing too long... An old rule and well established rule of thumb for proofing is the finger poke. If the dough resists a gentle prod, give it more time. If the poke leaves an indentation you're ready to bake. But dough temperature is also a big factor... Given the same state of "proofness" a warmer dough will spring more. Perhaps your correction is simply ensuring your "basket rise" (not your overall fermentation!!!) should be warmer. Also, when you place the doughs into the baskets have you been careful to "round" appropriately? Rounding is the final shaping of the boule so there is surface tension on the side that goes "down" in the basket. Rounding also is best when there is as little degassing as possible. Why not bake off some slightly under proofed loaves to get a feel for the parameters? You won't maximize flavor or crust aesthetics but you will begin a feel for where you want to be in the fermentation continuum. Will |
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loaf drying out while proofing
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loaf drying out while proofing
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loaf drying out while proofing
On 7/21/04 4:34 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On 21 Jul 2004 11:16:01 -0700, (Phil) wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > Other than the visual interest (that is, watching it happen through a > window in the oven door) there is no virtue whatever to oven spring. > In fact, in many baking traditions it is understood to indicate that > (from the perspective of maximizing flavor) the dough had been > under-proofed. > > All the best, Kenneth, It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of "no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf adds visual interest to the scoring. I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page 101. I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. Will |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On 7/21/04 4:34 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote:
> On 21 Jul 2004 11:16:01 -0700, (Phil) wrote: > > Hi Phil, > > Other than the visual interest (that is, watching it happen through a > window in the oven door) there is no virtue whatever to oven spring. > In fact, in many baking traditions it is understood to indicate that > (from the perspective of maximizing flavor) the dough had been > under-proofed. > > All the best, Kenneth, It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of "no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf adds visual interest to the scoring. I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page 101. I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. Will |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:06:32 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote: >On 7/21/04 4:34 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote: > >> On 21 Jul 2004 11:16:01 -0700, (Phil) wrote: >> >> Hi Phil, >> >> Other than the visual interest (that is, watching it happen through a >> window in the oven door) there is no virtue whatever to oven spring. >> In fact, in many baking traditions it is understood to indicate that >> (from the perspective of maximizing flavor) the dough had been >> under-proofed. >> >> All the best, > >Kenneth, > >It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of >"no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf >adds visual interest to the scoring. > >I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum >crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent >moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting >of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. >Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page >101. > >I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum >flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. > >Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. > >Will > Hi Will, I agree with everything you wrote. My overstated comments were in reaction to the many folks who seem to strive to achieve ever more spring... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 18:06:32 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote: >On 7/21/04 4:34 PM, "Kenneth" > wrote: > >> On 21 Jul 2004 11:16:01 -0700, (Phil) wrote: >> >> Hi Phil, >> >> Other than the visual interest (that is, watching it happen through a >> window in the oven door) there is no virtue whatever to oven spring. >> In fact, in many baking traditions it is understood to indicate that >> (from the perspective of maximizing flavor) the dough had been >> under-proofed. >> >> All the best, > >Kenneth, > >It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of >"no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf >adds visual interest to the scoring. > >I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum >crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent >moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting >of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. >Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page >101. > >I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum >flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. > >Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. > >Will > Hi Will, I agree with everything you wrote. My overstated comments were in reaction to the many folks who seem to strive to achieve ever more spring... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
A well-thought out and reasoned response,Will. I might also add that the
grigne (pardon my French, Dick Adams) produced by the appropriate amount of oven spring in a properly slashed loaf provides a particularly efficient pathway for venting of moisture, leading to "deeper roasting of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches...", as you mentioned. Proper oven spring for artisan breads is not just something for the baker's viewing pleasure. - Steve Brandt "williamwaller" > wrote in message news:mailman.3.1090451198.252.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of > "no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf > adds visual interest to the scoring. > > I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum > crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent > moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting > of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. > Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page > 101. > > I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum > flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. > > Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. |
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loaf drying out while proofing
A well-thought out and reasoned response,Will. I might also add that the
grigne (pardon my French, Dick Adams) produced by the appropriate amount of oven spring in a properly slashed loaf provides a particularly efficient pathway for venting of moisture, leading to "deeper roasting of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches...", as you mentioned. Proper oven spring for artisan breads is not just something for the baker's viewing pleasure. - Steve Brandt "williamwaller" > wrote in message news:mailman.3.1090451198.252.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com... > It's not clear to me why we should relegate oven spring to the category of > "no virtue whatever". For example, getting some additional "push" in a loaf > adds visual interest to the scoring. > > I suspect a loaf proofed to the theoretical maximum cannot have the optimum > crumb structure. Meaning the holes will be less generous, the loaf will vent > moisture less efficiently, which in turn might not support a deeper roasting > of the interior structure, gelatinization of the starches and so forth. > Reinhart, in Bread Baker's Apprentice, has an interesting discussion on page > 101. > > I'm suggesting maximum fermentation may not ultimately equate to optimum > flavor since it intersects with baking variables that also affect flavor. > > Or... Some oven spring may be desirable to facilitate flavor. |
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loaf drying out while proofing
Kenneth, between your overstated layer calculation and your statement
regarding the uselessness of oven spring, you are beginning to erode your credibility with your hyperbole. You may want to be more thoughtful in your responses. - Steve Brandt "Kenneth" > wrote in message news > My overstated comments were in reaction to the many folks who seem to > strive to achieve ever more spring... |
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loaf drying out while proofing
Kenneth, between your overstated layer calculation and your statement
regarding the uselessness of oven spring, you are beginning to erode your credibility with your hyperbole. You may want to be more thoughtful in your responses. - Steve Brandt "Kenneth" > wrote in message news > My overstated comments were in reaction to the many folks who seem to > strive to achieve ever more spring... |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:02:45 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote: >Kenneth, between your overstated layer calculation and your statement >regarding the uselessness of oven spring, you are beginning to erode your >credibility with your hyperbole. You may want to be more thoughtful in your >responses. > >- Steve Brandt Hi Steve, Regarding the latter, I have just said that my comment was overstated. If that acceptance of responsibility is insufficient for your needs, I will flagellate myself privately later this evening. Regarding for former: I wrote "If we do the folding, say, five times, we would have (if I calculate correctly) 37,733,772,363,874 such layers <g>." If you did not understand that to be a joke, well, I will try to find a way to accept that your assessment of my credibility has been eroded. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 00:02:45 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote: >Kenneth, between your overstated layer calculation and your statement >regarding the uselessness of oven spring, you are beginning to erode your >credibility with your hyperbole. You may want to be more thoughtful in your >responses. > >- Steve Brandt Hi Steve, Regarding the latter, I have just said that my comment was overstated. If that acceptance of responsibility is insufficient for your needs, I will flagellate myself privately later this evening. Regarding for former: I wrote "If we do the folding, say, five times, we would have (if I calculate correctly) 37,733,772,363,874 such layers <g>." If you did not understand that to be a joke, well, I will try to find a way to accept that your assessment of my credibility has been eroded. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
"Phil" wrote in message
om... > Kenneth > wrote > > If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the > > loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. > > > > Is that the problem you are having? > > No, not really. It's just that I'm not getting much oven spring. The > loaf pretty much stays the same size as when I put it in the oven at > the beginning of the bake. It's not a big deal, the crumb is decent > and the bread tastes good, but...I feel like i'm doing something > wrong. Possibly proofing too long? > To me proofing too long, at least for free form loaves, is if I can't get it into the oven without deflating the loaf. I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. I've posted a couple of pictures at the yahoo bread group in the Mike folder to show what I'm talking about. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bread_Pictures/ The first picture shows the loaf dead on from the side and you can see that I'm trying to describe when I say "a little bit of upturn". The second picture shows the top of the loaf and how the slashing looked. From the pictures I hope you can see that there was a bit of spring, but not an awful lot. If I hadn't let that loaf rise as much as I had prior to baking there would have been an much more pronounced upturn at the side of the loaf with less flat along the bottom. If I had let it go much longer there would have been a flat bottom all the way to the edge with a sharp transition from the bottom to the sides. In other words, I wouldn't have been able to get it into the oven without deflating it too much. I wish I had some pictures of my other examples, but I tend not to take pictures of bread with which I'm not happy. I'm baking again tomorrow, maybe I'll get lucky and screw up. I don't think you should worry too much about the oven spring if you are happy with the final product. As far as the drying is concerned. I have a large plastic Rubbermaid storage box. I just place my bread on the counter to rise and place the box over the loaves. The loaves don't dry out. Before I pulled that box out of a friends trash I used to let my bread rise inside of a large plastic bag, that works well too. -Mike |
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loaf drying out while proofing
"Phil" wrote in message
om... > Kenneth > wrote > > If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the > > loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. > > > > Is that the problem you are having? > > No, not really. It's just that I'm not getting much oven spring. The > loaf pretty much stays the same size as when I put it in the oven at > the beginning of the bake. It's not a big deal, the crumb is decent > and the bread tastes good, but...I feel like i'm doing something > wrong. Possibly proofing too long? > To me proofing too long, at least for free form loaves, is if I can't get it into the oven without deflating the loaf. I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. I've posted a couple of pictures at the yahoo bread group in the Mike folder to show what I'm talking about. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bread_Pictures/ The first picture shows the loaf dead on from the side and you can see that I'm trying to describe when I say "a little bit of upturn". The second picture shows the top of the loaf and how the slashing looked. From the pictures I hope you can see that there was a bit of spring, but not an awful lot. If I hadn't let that loaf rise as much as I had prior to baking there would have been an much more pronounced upturn at the side of the loaf with less flat along the bottom. If I had let it go much longer there would have been a flat bottom all the way to the edge with a sharp transition from the bottom to the sides. In other words, I wouldn't have been able to get it into the oven without deflating it too much. I wish I had some pictures of my other examples, but I tend not to take pictures of bread with which I'm not happy. I'm baking again tomorrow, maybe I'll get lucky and screw up. I don't think you should worry too much about the oven spring if you are happy with the final product. As far as the drying is concerned. I have a large plastic Rubbermaid storage box. I just place my bread on the counter to rise and place the box over the loaves. The loaves don't dry out. Before I pulled that box out of a friends trash I used to let my bread rise inside of a large plastic bag, that works well too. -Mike |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:25:54 -0500, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote: >"Phil" wrote in message . com... > >> Kenneth > wrote > >> > If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the >> > loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. >> > >> > Is that the problem you are having? >> >> No, not really. It's just that I'm not getting much oven spring. The >> loaf pretty much stays the same size as when I put it in the oven at >> the beginning of the bake. It's not a big deal, the crumb is decent >> and the bread tastes good, but...I feel like i'm doing something >> wrong. Possibly proofing too long? >> > >To me proofing too long, at least for free form loaves, is if I can't get it >into the oven without deflating the loaf. > >I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but >a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly >flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. I've posted a couple >of pictures at the yahoo bread group in the Mike folder to show what I'm >talking about. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bread_Pictures/ > >The first picture shows the loaf dead on from the side and you can see that >I'm trying to describe when I say "a little bit of upturn". The second >picture shows the top of the loaf and how the slashing looked. From the >pictures I hope you can see that there was a bit of spring, but not an awful >lot. > >If I hadn't let that loaf rise as much as I had prior to baking there would >have been an much more pronounced upturn at the side of the loaf with less >flat along the bottom. If I had let it go much longer there would have been >a flat bottom all the way to the edge with a sharp transition from the >bottom to the sides. In other words, I wouldn't have been able to get it >into the oven without deflating it too much. > >I wish I had some pictures of my other examples, but I tend not to take >pictures of bread with which I'm not happy. I'm baking again tomorrow, maybe >I'll get lucky and screw up. > >I don't think you should worry too much about the oven spring if you are >happy with the final product. > >As far as the drying is concerned. I have a large plastic Rubbermaid storage >box. I just place my bread on the counter to rise and place the box over the >loaves. The loaves don't dry out. Before I pulled that box out of a friends >trash I used to let my bread rise inside of a large plastic bag, that works >well too. > >-Mike > Hi Mike, You said: >I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but >a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly >flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. and that is a much better description than I had offered a while ago. I said something like "If the loaves are pulling away from the baking surface as if they were trying to become the shape of a sphere they were far underproofed..." but your description captures that issue of shape in a way that is more easily understood. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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loaf drying out while proofing
On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 22:25:54 -0500, "Mike Pearce"
> wrote: >"Phil" wrote in message . com... > >> Kenneth > wrote > >> > If the dough is drying to the point that spring is constrained, the >> > loaf will burst (often looking as if it had "exploded") on baking. >> > >> > Is that the problem you are having? >> >> No, not really. It's just that I'm not getting much oven spring. The >> loaf pretty much stays the same size as when I put it in the oven at >> the beginning of the bake. It's not a big deal, the crumb is decent >> and the bread tastes good, but...I feel like i'm doing something >> wrong. Possibly proofing too long? >> > >To me proofing too long, at least for free form loaves, is if I can't get it >into the oven without deflating the loaf. > >I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but >a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly >flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. I've posted a couple >of pictures at the yahoo bread group in the Mike folder to show what I'm >talking about. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Bread_Pictures/ > >The first picture shows the loaf dead on from the side and you can see that >I'm trying to describe when I say "a little bit of upturn". The second >picture shows the top of the loaf and how the slashing looked. From the >pictures I hope you can see that there was a bit of spring, but not an awful >lot. > >If I hadn't let that loaf rise as much as I had prior to baking there would >have been an much more pronounced upturn at the side of the loaf with less >flat along the bottom. If I had let it go much longer there would have been >a flat bottom all the way to the edge with a sharp transition from the >bottom to the sides. In other words, I wouldn't have been able to get it >into the oven without deflating it too much. > >I wish I had some pictures of my other examples, but I tend not to take >pictures of bread with which I'm not happy. I'm baking again tomorrow, maybe >I'll get lucky and screw up. > >I don't think you should worry too much about the oven spring if you are >happy with the final product. > >As far as the drying is concerned. I have a large plastic Rubbermaid storage >box. I just place my bread on the counter to rise and place the box over the >loaves. The loaves don't dry out. Before I pulled that box out of a friends >trash I used to let my bread rise inside of a large plastic bag, that works >well too. > >-Mike > Hi Mike, You said: >I don't know that I've ever baked a loaf with absolutely no oven spring, but >a lot of oven spring is not my goal. I like to see my loaves have a mostly >flat bottom with a little bit of upturn at the sides. and that is a much better description than I had offered a while ago. I said something like "If the loaves are pulling away from the baking surface as if they were trying to become the shape of a sphere they were far underproofed..." but your description captures that issue of shape in a way that is more easily understood. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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