Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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what are the advantages of proofing loaves, in a couche say, seam side
up vs. down? general wisdom seems to say always proof seam side up,
but i've been experiencing significant drying out of the smooth side
of the loaves that are directly in contact with the couche, when
retarding overnight....
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On Wed, 20 May 2009 23:02:29 -0700 (PDT), dougcullen
> wrote:

>what are the advantages of proofing loaves, in a couche say, seam side
>up vs. down? general wisdom seems to say always proof seam side up,
>but i've been experiencing significant drying out of the smooth side
>of the loaves that are directly in contact with the couche, when
>retarding overnight....



Hi Doug,

There are a few issues:

First, one of the benefits of using fabric in that way is
that it will dry the surface of the loaf somewhat and that
makes the slashing easier, and a bit more decorative.

But, having the loaf in contact with the fabric longer than
a few hours may be asking for trouble for the reasons you
describe, but also because such lengthy contact may increase
the likelihood of sticking.

If you want to retard the dough, you might want to do it as
a bulk proof, that is, make the dough, retard it, form the
loaf, put it in the couche, let it have its final rise, and
bake it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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hi kenneth, thanks for your response,

w/o retarding, this sourdough has 2 hour bulk fermentation and a 2
hour final fermentation.
if i choose to retard the bulk dough, would i retard it immediately
after mixing? due to other issues, the retarding time is quite long,
about 20 hours.
i've also considered decreasing the percentage of starter in the
dough.... ?

thanks,

doug


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dougcullen wrote:
> hi kenneth, thanks for your response,
>
> w/o retarding, this sourdough has 2 hour bulk fermentation and a 2
> hour final fermentation.
> if i choose to retard the bulk dough, would i retard it immediately
> after mixing? due to other issues, the retarding time is quite long,
> about 20 hours.
> i've also considered decreasing the percentage of starter in the
> dough.... ?
>
> thanks,
>
> doug
>
>


I've been experimenting with retardation, and don't claim to be an
expert. But for a 1lb loaf or so I find the dough chills to the point
where activity is "slow" in about an hour, so I'd try 1 hour bulk on the
counter then put it in the fridge. If you're doing a retard on the order
of a day I don't think you'll have an overproof situation but hopefully
you'll get the same kind of result you were getting (plus whatever good
things you hope to get from retarding).
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On Thu, 21 May 2009 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT), dougcullen
> wrote:

>hi kenneth, thanks for your response,
>
>w/o retarding, this sourdough has 2 hour bulk fermentation and a 2
>hour final fermentation.
>if i choose to retard the bulk dough, would i retard it immediately
>after mixing? due to other issues, the retarding time is quite long,
>about 20 hours.
>i've also considered decreasing the percentage of starter in the
>dough.... ?
>
>thanks,
>
>doug
>


Hi Doug,

Why are you retarding the dough at all, and why 20 hours?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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On Thu, 21 May 2009 15:55:48 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 May 2009 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT), dougcullen
> wrote:
>
>>hi kenneth, thanks for your response,
>>
>>w/o retarding, this sourdough has 2 hour bulk fermentation and a 2
>>hour final fermentation.
>>if i choose to retard the bulk dough, would i retard it immediately
>>after mixing? due to other issues, the retarding time is quite long,
>>about 20 hours.
>>i've also considered decreasing the percentage of starter in the
>>dough.... ?
>>
>>thanks,
>>
>>doug
>>

>
>Hi Doug,
>
>Why are you retarding the dough at all, and why 20 hours?
>
>All the best,



I retard almost every bread I make. The dough goes into the fridge for
at least 10 hours, often more, usually with little room temp
fermentation. It not only deepens flavor, but I think it benefits
gluten formation, too.

Ain't nuthin' like a long, cool rise for the yummies.

Boron
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On Thu, 21 May 2009 17:11:11 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 May 2009 15:55:48 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 21 May 2009 12:23:43 -0700 (PDT), dougcullen
> wrote:
>>
>>>hi kenneth, thanks for your response,
>>>
>>>w/o retarding, this sourdough has 2 hour bulk fermentation and a 2
>>>hour final fermentation.
>>>if i choose to retard the bulk dough, would i retard it immediately
>>>after mixing? due to other issues, the retarding time is quite long,
>>>about 20 hours.
>>>i've also considered decreasing the percentage of starter in the
>>>dough.... ?
>>>
>>>thanks,
>>>
>>>doug
>>>

>>
>>Hi Doug,
>>
>>Why are you retarding the dough at all, and why 20 hours?
>>
>>All the best,

>
>
>I retard almost every bread I make. The dough goes into the fridge for
>at least 10 hours, often more, usually with little room temp
>fermentation. It not only deepens flavor, but I think it benefits
>gluten formation, too.
>
>Ain't nuthin' like a long, cool rise for the yummies.
>
>Boron


Hi Boron,

I do think you are on to something with the gluten
comment...

I know that if I let my rustic loaves (spelt + wheat + small
amount of rye) chill out overnight, they have a chewier
crust that I love.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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Default seam side up or down

thanks hans, i'll try one hour floor time before retarding.

kenneth,

i'm retarding the dough in order to produce noticeable sourness and
all the benefits that increased acidity bring. the lengthy 20 hours of
retarding is bc i'm renting a shared kitchen space that happens to
have a real bread oven, and those are the time slots that i have! 3-8
AM on two consecutive days, so i've had to get creative...the point
was to have fresh bread ready for saturday outdoor markets. i just
started selling bread commercially here in brooklyn ny...!! been a
serious home baker for 5 years, home taught mostly by nancy
silverton's book, my current bible is jeff hamelman's "bread."

doug
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On Thu, 21 May 2009 17:15:41 -0700 (PDT), dougcullen
> wrote:

>thanks hans, i'll try one hour floor time before retarding.
>
>kenneth,
>
>i'm retarding the dough in order to produce noticeable sourness and
>all the benefits that increased acidity bring. the lengthy 20 hours of
>retarding is bc i'm renting a shared kitchen space that happens to
>have a real bread oven, and those are the time slots that i have! 3-8
>AM on two consecutive days, so i've had to get creative...the point
>was to have fresh bread ready for saturday outdoor markets. i just
>started selling bread commercially here in brooklyn ny...!! been a
>serious home baker for 5 years, home taught mostly by nancy
>silverton's book, my current bible is jeff hamelman's "bread."
>
>doug


Hi Doug,

Interesting... I have not noticed that retarding the dough
has any particular effect on the level our sour.

By the way, I live in New Hampshire, but I am a recovering
Brooklynite. Where are you located?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

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"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> ... I have not noticed that retarding the dough
> has any particular effect on the level our sour.


The main effect is to make the dough colder.

"Clammier" is a good way to describe it.


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Default seam side up or down


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> Interesting... I have not noticed that retarding the dough
> has any particular effect on the level our sour.
>


As someone who had at one time experimented with long retardation of
sourdough, I can definitely say there is an effect on sour, though maybe not
directly from the retarding. As retarding doesn't stop the fermentation
process, just slows it down, the time spent in the fridge is time spent in
growing sourdough critters, just much slower and at a different ratio than
in warmth. If I wanted to experiment with a very long retardation, I would
have to cut some time off the warm fermentation, or end up with very slack
dough where the gluten is very broken down. If I am cutting down on the warm
time to compensate, I lose sour. My conclusions here were that retarding
created a somewhat less sour product (increasingly less as the cold to warm
ratio increased), but with a much more interesting crust due to decreased
gluten strength. Seam side up.

hutchndi

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