First, thanks to those folks who are promoting and preserving
sourdough starters !

I received a dried sample of Carl's 1847 Oregon Trail starter, and
revivied it as per instructions. After doubling ( with 1/2 cup of
flour and water) the starter, it got wonderfully bubbly overnight. I
added a cup of water and flour to the mix, transferred it to a Mason
jar, and placed the jar in a large pot of luke warm water on my stove.
About once an hour, I turned on the natural gas flame to warm the
water to just barely warm, and in three hours the starter literally
exploded into activity. I put the lid on the jar, shook it to remove
the bubbles and watched it double in volume over a 10 minute span. I
took that as evidence of an especially active sponge.

Taking two cups of the sponge, a 1/2 tsp salt, enough flour to make a
single loaf, and 6 minutes in my Kitchen Aid mixer...it was time to
let it rise. After 2 hours, I punched the loaf down, hand kneaded it
for 5 minutes, spread 1/4 cup of corn meal on a pizza stone, and let
it rise for 3 hours (made two slices in the loaf after an hour).
Starting with a cold oven and a cookie pan underneath with a cup of
hot water in it, I let the oven rise to 500 deg F, then lowered the
temperature to 400 until the loaf was nicely browned. Got a nice,
thick crispy crust and a decent loaf.

Beginner's luck. This was my first attempt at sourdough bread. I've
been reading about sourdough bread for years, and just wanted to try
it. The emails and advice on this user group were especially
handy...my thanks to all of you who have posted here.

Still, Carl's starter didn't create a bread with a tang that I
expected. On a scale of 0 to 10, I'd give this loaf a 7 or 8.

Just wondering - would the Acme or San Francisco starters provide a
bread with more tangyness and more of that 'sour cream' or
'buttermilk' flavor ?

Doug

wrote:
> [ . . . ]
> Still, Carl's starter didn't create a bread with a tang that I
> expected. On a scale of 0 to 10, I'd give this loaf a 7 or 8.
>
> Just wondering - would the Acme or San Francisco starters provide a
> bread with more tangyness and more of that 'sour cream' or
> 'buttermilk' flavor ?

Hi, Doug. I got a Carl's starter about 15 years ago. As you describe, my
first few loaves were good, but not real tangy. As the starter aged, it
developed more character and the bread became tangier. Depends on what you
feed it and how you take care of it, which I no longer remember. Pancakes
and stuff for the kids was outstanding from day one. I stopped making bread
when I got up to eating three loaves a day! I keep some starter freeze
dried in the back of the freezer, just in case. ;-)

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!
I've known US vets who served as far back as the Spanish American War. They
are all my heroes! Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not
forgotten. Thanks ! ! ~Semper Fi~

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:53:42 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>
>Just wondering - would the Acme or San Francisco starters provide a
>bread with more tangyness and more of that 'sour cream' or
>'buttermilk' flavor ?

Hi Doug,

(As others have said), the answer is "Yes" and so will the
Carl's.

The issue is in the times, and temps you use...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 18 Mar, 02:53, wrote:
....
> Still, Carl's starter didn't create a bread with a tang that I
> expected. On a scale of 0 to 10, I'd give this loaf a 7 or 8.
>
> Just wondering - would the Acme or San Francisco starters provide a
> bread with more tangyness and more of that 'sour cream' or
> 'buttermilk' flavor ?
>
> Doug

Hi Doug,

There are different ways to get sour. The safest is to use low
temperatures. This has nothing to do with a longer rise meaning more
sour as people mistakenly conclude, that's a different matter, it's to
do with the differences in performance of the different yeast and
bacteria in the starter at certain temperatures.

See the graph, it shows the growth curve for different bacteria, the
data was taken from the FAQ.

http://tinyurl.com/3979f4

Ignore the scale on the left the difference is the important thing to
note, and ignore the pale blue line, that some different data and an
over simplified equation.

The temperature along the bottom is in degrees C

Jim

"Phil" > wrote in message
...

> The sourdough seems to me more a matter of technique. I have both Carl's and
> SDI's SF cultures, and they are both very tangy, although very different.
> Long slow cool rises (3 or so) are the key for me. And, the bread is much
> tangier after it sits for a day or two. Keep at it and over time, you'll get
> the results you're after.

Three rises means what?... two punchdowns/deflations?

Not everybody's dough will stay together long enough for loaves both
good-looking and sourdough-tasty.

Do you perhaps have some inspirational photographs and more detailed
advice?

How is Carl's different from SDI SF? (My experience is that the former
is revivable, cf. DOA.)

Are you one of the Phils from way back then?

--
Dicky

wrote:.
>
> Just wondering - would the Acme or San Francisco starters provide a
> bread with more tangyness and more of that 'sour cream' or
> 'buttermilk' flavor ?
>
> Doug

I have found I can make both types of taste, sour and not by the
preferment times. I have a homemade one year old now starter.

If I grow it fast and warm like you did, I get a lighter loaf with less
'bite' or 'sour' taste.

I store my starter in the refrigerator because I only use it once a week
or less so when I bring it out, I give it a 'wake up' or refresh feed.

I then take some off and put my 'mother' back in the fridge.

If I want a sour tasting end product, I next give it an overnight or at
least 10 hour grow at room temperature. I then give it another 'wake
up' feed just until it doubles, (mine will do about 4X before it drops)
then I add stuff to make bread. I usually have at least 2 cups of
sponge at this point.

If I want it real sour, I will give the starter a couple days of long
cool grows. That fast wake up feed after, before adding bread
ingredients is still needed to make the loaf light or airy I find.

Same for the bread rise times. If I put it in the prewarmed oven at
this point, it will be a lighter in texture medium sour loaf. If I let
it rise on the counter which is usually about double the time for mine,
it is a denser sour loaf.

If I want a lighter or less sour sandwich loaf, I omit the long
overnight grow and use the prewarmed oven to grow the starter and to
rise the bread in.

This has been pretty consistent for me.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Well, your collective advice has certainly challenged my thinking
about the starter being a fixed component in breadmaking. Knowing that
it is adaptable, and that I have control over its' behavior, opens the
door to a lot of fun experimenting.

I'll try the cooler method (thanks for that graph !) to reactivating
the culture and allowing for a longer rise on the cool counter before
baking. By Sunday, I will summarize the entire process and result,
like in my first posting.

By the way, the loaf has a bit more tang two days after baking. But it
sure was good hot out of the oven.

I may never go back to using packaged yeast.

Doug

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>By the way, the loaf has a bit more tang two days after baking. But it
>sure was good hot out of the oven.

Howdy,

Indeed, the taste changes over the course of several days
(though I have never understood why it would once it has
been out of the oven long enough to cool, and dry.)

Also, however good it was hot from the oven, it would likely
taste better had you let it cool, and then warmed it again.

That's because there are a number of "waste products" still
in the loaf when the bake is done, and many of those detract
from the taste.

Give it a try, and you might have a very happy result.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Dicky,

Remind me why you use a chopstick or chopsticks instead of a wooden
spoon.

I don't use metal spoons but I do use the KA mixer with its stainless
steel bowl and don't see any problem.

"Trix" > wrote in message ...
> Dicky,
>
> Remind me why you use a chopstick or chopsticks instead of a wooden
> spoon.

They are good when a wooden spoon is too big. Well, if you happen
to be clumsy, you have to be very careful not to sick yourself in the eye
if you happen to be using a chopstick. So, depending on that, you might
be better of with a wooden spoon.

> I don't use metal spoons but I do use the KA mixer with its stainless
> steel bowl and don't see any problem.

Nor do I. Well, sometimes it is good to start the mixing in the KA bowl
with a wooden spoon so the doughhook will not scatter flour all over
the place. A stainless steel spoon would be OK, but maybe noisier.

--
-d.

Dicky said:
>" They are good when a wooden spoon is too big. Well, if you happen
> to be clumsy, you have to be very careful not to sick yourself in the eye
> if you happen to be using a chopstick. So, depending on that, you might
> be better of with a wooden spoon."

Ok, you are being silly. So, it is when your using a small container
that you use the chopstick. I refresh my starter by removing it from
the little pyrex or anchor glass storage container I use and putting
it in the KA bowl. Then in the morning, I put the little bit I am
saving back in the container for storage. If I refreshed the starter
in the small pyrex container, then it would be too big for a wooden
spoon... I just thought that maybe you used a chopstick because their
is less area to somehow disturb the beasties or some such nonsense...

Lucy

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 05:57:15 -0700 (PDT), Trix
> wrote:

>If I refreshed the starter
>in the small pyrex container, then it would be too big for a wooden
>spoon...

Howdy,

Perhaps you could find a source for those tiny wooden spoons
that were provided with cups of ice cream...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Charlie said:
> "Perhaps you could find a source for those tiny wooden spoons
> that were provided with cups of ice cream..."

Well, those would be handy...but I am fine with my wooden spoons and
the big KA bowl.


Lucy

Sorry.....That was Kenneth's suggestion...

oh well.

Trix wrote:
> Dicky said:
>> " They are good when a wooden spoon is too big.

> So, it is when your using a small container
> that you use the chopstick.
> Lucy
>

When I am doing a refresh feed in mt mason jar, I use the wooden spoon
for the flour and it's handle to do the stirring.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...

> When I am doing a refresh feed in mt mason jar, I use the wooden spoon
> for the flour and it's handle to do the stirring.

Good! You should definitely avoid the chopstick for the reason I mentioned to
ol' Trixie in

--
Dicky

Trix wrote:
> Dicky said:
>> " They are good when a wooden spoon is too big. Well, if you
>> happen to be clumsy, you have to be very careful not to sick
>> yourself in the eye if you happen to be using a chopstick. So,
>> depending on that, you might be better of with a wooden spoon."
>
> Ok, you are being silly. So, it is when your using a small container
> that you use the chopstick.

That's what he said in the first sentence.

[...]

> I just thought that maybe you used a chopstick because their is less
> area to somehow disturb the beasties or some such nonsense...

There's always one.

I remember some years ago catering a dinner for 300 and I had one of the
guests crowding me as I worked pre-service being "collegial" (and
there's always an element of 'stump the chef' in such discussions). A
grease fire occurred and I yelled for someone to close the kitchen door.
This fellow said--when it was actually the time to be silent and let
the emergency conclude--"oh I see, you're trying to restrict the air
flow in the room." I replied, "I hadn't thought of that. I just didn't
want the other guests coming in here to see what was happening."

B/