Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
like to watch them!

here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince

On Mar 7, 12:24*am, viince > wrote:
> Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
> like to watch them!
>
> here we go:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince

One might think you've been doing that for a while Viince.... made a
couple loaves before??

On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 01:24:39 -0800 (PST), viince >
wrote:

>Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
>like to watch them!
>
>here we go:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince


Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.

What temp is the oven?

Boron?

> Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.
>
> What temp is the oven?

250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.

On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince > wrote:
> > Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.
>
> > What temp is the oven?
>
> 250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
> bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
> forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.

I meant without forming too much crust.

Hi Vince,

great videos, love the way you mix your accent with the London glottal
stop. : -)

Thanks for sharing those.

Jim

On 9 Mar, 12:49, viince > wrote:
> On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince > wrote:
>
> > > Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.
>
> > > What temp is the oven?
>
> > 250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
> > bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
> > forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.
>
> I meant without forming too much crust.

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 04:15:53 -0700 (PDT), viince >
wrote:

>
>> Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.
>>
>> What temp is the oven?
>
>250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
>bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
>forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.

Lovely oven.

I can get my home oven to 260C for bread baking and often do my
leanest sourdoughs there at least for a start.

When I win the lottery I want an industrial baking area tucked off to
one side of the kitchen. OH, and a wood-fired oven, too.

Boron

On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 05:49:50 -0700 (PDT), viince >
wrote:

>On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince > wrote:
>> > Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.
>>
>> > What temp is the oven?
>>
>> 250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
>> bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
>> forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.
>
>I meant without forming too much crust.


I know, no one really wants a really soft crust on a ciabatta.

Boron

http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866

http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322

These are the ciabatte from the videos
They don't get all so round on the top, some kinda collapsed in the
middle, bit like a bone, but I liked that one the best.

On Mar 9, 6:55 pm, viince > wrote:
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322
>
> These are the ciabatte from the videos
> They don't get all so round on the top, some kinda collapsed in the
> middle, bit like a bone, but I liked that one the best.

Ed asks:

Vince - Were the baguettes in the first videos made from sourdough or
yeasted dough? Thanks for sharing.

Ed Bechtel

"Ed" > wrote in message ...
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322
> Vince - Were the baguettes in the first videos made from sourdough or
> yeasted dough?

Ah, Ed, there you go, like Kenneth, with the rhetorical questions. Hey, in
that bakery, do you think they got time to muck around with sourdough?
Off topic with very little doubt. But, for here, still the best show in town.

Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.

We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
miche) and the 100% rye.

On Mar 11, 12:24 am, viince > wrote:
> Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.
>
> We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
> miche) and the 100% rye.

On Mar 11, 12:24 am, viince > wrote:
> Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.
>
> We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
> miche) and the 100% rye.

I can testify (from consuming) that the rye sourdough starter addition
is very important part of the character of the bread Vince makes,
essentially I would say for adding flavour and keeping qualities. I
think Vince will agree that that since starter is rye fed the day
before use, it's peaked in terms of C02 production, done full drop and
gone to the sour before use.

Personally I have been experimenting with trying to produce a pure
sourdough 'baguette' the last few weeks. I am not even certain that
classically there can really be such a thing as a pure sourdough
baguette, that the type is not intrinsically and historically a post
commercial yeast Parisian invention. For instance in the professional
baker's book Vince recently lent me "Le pain, l'envers du décor"
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/2914449054/ there are 5 recipes for baguette
including one 'baguette au levain' but even here for 1700g main flour
there is 500g levain naturel (55% hydration) and 3g yeast. Another pro
baker friend starting a new bakery where they tried to make all breads
100% sourdough has given in and added a touch of commercial yeast to
his baguette.

Still I persist to try and create something which 100% sourdough that
is both recognisably sourdough and at same time has both crunchy crust
and fresh fluffy quite open and varied crumb of classical baguette. I
should mention I do have benefit of true French flour from Vince's
place (all their flour is French). So far I don't have possibility to
make the regulation length and weight (http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/
viamichelin/gbr/tpl/mag5/art20080301/htm/tour-gastro-meilleure-
baguette-paris-2008.htm) because my winter domestic oven is just that
in dimension, domestic. In fact its very rare for any baker in UK to
attempt this, usually the UK baguette however authentic it claims to
be is heavier and shorter, partly I think to avoid the strict demands
of time and space of the traditional form, partly because the thinner
cross section means keeping qualities are such buying bread twice a
day is really required, which UK customer will not do and partly
because normal UK use is for sandwich rather than chopped/torn eaten
with food without butter etc

Anyway I am working with variations of my current favoured method, a
combination of sourdough starter at a poolish type hydration (around
100%) refreshed to peak activity before use and pre-ferment or 'rotten
dough' i.e. a portion of dough saved over from previous baking, very
sour and gone gooey. To begin with I tried 22% (baker's percentage of
flour in addition to main/final flour) rotten dough and 22% starter, 1
hour autolyse before addition of starter and the rotten dough and
about 6 and half hour total rising before baking with initial final
dough temperature of 19C rising in heated room to 22C, but
essentially this gave a crumb that was too rigid and gelatinous for
baguette. So I reduced to around 14% rotten dough and 15% starter and
whilst crumb was lighter/fresher in texture this had effect of
requiring up to 12 hour rising which since I am preparing to bake out
doors again soon is not suitable (not enough daylight yet). So I moved
to higher percentage of starter so faster but now tipped to crumbly
crumb. Now I have gone back to 14% and 15% but without any warmed
water in final mix (initial final doudh 12C) and cold kitchen over
night rising - so total 18 hour rising. Finally I think results are in
right direction and can fit when I move to outdoor oven. various pics
http://www.myplot.org/oven/gallery.p...e=6&project=13 and the
gallery pages before

A main problem is both my own lack of real shaping prowess of a
professional such as Vince and limitation of my domestic oven, I have
been baking these baguette 2 at a time in a steep sided quite deep
oven tray with foil over top for 1st half hour + my domestic oven will
not go over 200C however long I pre heat so I think burst of heat from
tray floor is limited. Result is I very rarely get a nice cylindrical
cross section + I cannot really slash with freedom because of these
sides to the tray. Having said this the balancing act between of
hydration between getting an open crumb and retaining a cylindrical
cross section (without one of those curved baguette baking trays to
cheat) is very fine - somewhere between 59% total hydration and 62%
with French flour (more like 67% with a stronger flour but you will
not get some proper crunchy crust).

We shall see when I get to my outdoor oven what transpires ...

yours
andy forbes

atty wrote:

> Personally I have been experimenting with trying to produce a pure
> sourdough 'baguette' the last few weeks.
> andy forbes
>

I found a decent recipe that makes a very good 'baguette' or French
stick in the Joy of Cooking. I substitute 2 cups of 'active' SD starter
(my idea of 'active' is in the growth period at the double the volume
point) for 1 'dose' of yeast (packet, 2.25 tsp,cake, etc...) and it
comes out very nice. The crust is really chewy and really nice and sour
tasting with an airy soft crumb. My 'market' really likes it and is
asking for more.

Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:
http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
shots album. Photo #2.

The recipe I made up using my SD instead of commercial yeast is posted
in the thread "A Good Sourdough Day - Take 3". That mix made two large
loaves that were consistent with previous bakes for crust and crumb.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

>
> Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>
> There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
> shots album. Photo #2.
>

Hi Mike,

I wouldn't say I am a purist but I think you must have missed Vince's
note about not slashing at right angles to the length of loaf and I
would have one or two other quibbles about whether your pics/loaves
can be termed baguette

maybe compare with
http://www.viamichelin.fr/viamicheli...ries-paris.htm

having said that one does have the strange dichotomy nowadays that
quite a few trendy artisanal pro bakers, in France and elsewhere, are
striving to produce loaves (including baguette) that have an obviously
handmade/homemade style, irregular width and shape etc. whilst us
amateurs strive for the opposite.

yours
atty

atty wrote:
>> Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>>
>> There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
>> shots album. Photo #2.
>>
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I wouldn't say I am a purist but I think you must have missed Vince's
> note about not slashing at right angles to the length of loaf and I
> would have one or two other quibbles about whether your pics/loaves
> can be termed baguette
>
> maybe compare with
> http://www.viamichelin.fr/viamicheli...ries-paris.htm
>
> having said that one does have the strange dichotomy nowadays that
> quite a few trendy artisanal pro bakers, in France and elsewhere, are
> striving to produce loaves (including baguette) that have an obviously
> handmade/homemade style, irregular width and shape etc. whilst us
> amateurs strive for the opposite.
>
> yours
> atty
>
>

To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.

I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.

Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
'I' have seen and read about. I have used it as called for in some
recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.

I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. My recipe called for cross
cuts with scissors. I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.

Mike

Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.

Go wild, be impulsive.

Jim

On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain > wrote:
...
>
> To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
> recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.
>
> I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
> smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.
>
> Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
> 'I' have seen and read about. *I have used it as called for in some
> recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
> the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.
>
> I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. *My recipe called for cross
> cuts with scissors. *I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
> batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.
>
> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

People have been making bread recipes for more than 5000 years and you
want me to go re-invent the wheel?

Why don't 'you' go knock yourself out and post photos. Or do you even
bake bread?

Mike

TG wrote:
> Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
> responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
> for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
> have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
> tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.
>
> Go wild, be impulsive.
>
> Jim
>
> On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain > wrote:
> ...
>> To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
>> recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.
>>
>> I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
>> smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.
>>
>> Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
>> 'I' have seen and read about. I have used it as called for in some
>> recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
>> the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.
>>
>> I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. My recipe called for cross
>> cuts with scissors. I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
>> batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.
>>
>> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>

Mike, try to understand what it is I'm trying to say to you. Don't
assume I'm having a go. If you take the stand point that I'm trying to
help, even if I'm not you'll still gain.

I know people have been making bread for a long time. That is besides
the point. The point I was trying to get across to you Mike, is to
realise that a recipe for something as simple as bread is rarely a
totally integrated method with all bits being essential to the end
result. You can easily take the gist from a bread recipe and make good
bread. If you have no clue what you're doing then yes follow each and
every bread recipe to the letter, but doing that forever more won't
give you much understanding if you have the attitude that that loaf
owes everything to that exact recipe.

You want me to show off my bread? Why? Why would I go to the trouble
of uploading photos to a site just to show people here what I've
baked? I don't think anyone here gives a stuff what my bread looks
like so I'm certainly not wasting time uploading photos. If my
experience can't show through in my words then tough. I don't have
anything to prove to you Mike or anyone else. It's not a competition.
Believe it or not I'm trying to help you Mike. I don't have to listen
though just as you don't have to eat a cake offered to you at a party.

Jim



On 12 Mar, 14:38, Mike Romain > wrote:
> People have been making bread recipes for more than 5000 years and you
> want me to go re-invent the wheel?
>
> Why don't 'you' go knock yourself out and post photos. *Or do you even
> bake bread?
>
> Mike
>
> TG wrote:
> > Mike, there's a common theme to your posts where you relinquish all
> > responsibility to something, be it the recipe or the starter. Think
> > for yourself. It's bread, there's three basic ingredients. You don't
> > have to have it written down in front of you to try it. Most of the
> > tricks of the trade are never written down in a recipe anyway.
>
> > Go wild, be impulsive.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On 11 Mar, 17:37, Mike Romain > wrote:
> > ...
> >> To get more of a store bought taste and texture, you can use the same
> >> recipe Vince uses which calls for an addition of commercial yeast.
>
> >> I also think if I had of hand kneaded the dough a bit, it would have a
> >> smoother crust texture, but that was a 'no knead' recipe.
>
> >> Most store bought 'sourdough' bread has commercial yeast in it from what
> >> 'I' have seen and read about. *I have used it as called for in some
> >> recipes and I do get results like the grocery store bakeries, but like
> >> the pure 'one way or the other' breads better I think.
>
> >> I might try Vince's diagonal cuts next time. *My recipe called for cross
> >> cuts with scissors. *I am warming and refresh feeding up my 'mother'
> >> batch for a new loaf of something, haven't decided yet.
>
> >> Mike- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -

TG wrote:
You can easily take the gist from a bread recipe and make good
> bread.

Figure it this way, I am the guy using my SD starter in place of
commercial yeast for all kinds of recipes so am experimenting pretty
good right now.

I look for consistency in results, then I play more, but my recipes are
'made up' basically following a tried and true recipe.

The SD French stick loaves I am baking today are cut like viince did his
just to see how they turn out.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I give up. You're one of those guys Mike that evades and side steps
everthing said to him. There's just no point getting involved. It's as
if you see every discussion as a battle to be won. I lose, you win
Mike.

Good luck

Jim

On 12 Mar, 20:58, Mike Romain > wrote:
> ... but my recipes are
> 'made up' basically following a tried and true recipe.
> ..
> Mike

Why you people always have to fight like this? geez this is a bread
forum

TG is right: recipes are stupid and if you follow them to the letter
you'll make crap, and whenever your bread looks like crap, it's your
fault, not the oven, not the flour, not the recipe.

Mike is right: there is a purpose to upload pictures: When I see
people talking about bread making as if they know so much, they are so
great and so on, and then I see their pictures it makes me laugh and I
stop giving much attention to what they write. If people see you can
make good bread, they give you a bit more respect. I reckon.

That's why whenever I make bread that looks like shit, I certainly
won't take pictures of it. I even happened to put a loaf of bread
straight from the oven to the bin because it was so horrible.

Take it easy guys. Bread is life! Bread should make everybody happy

Vince, I think 'fight' is a bit of a strong word, it's text, it's
sharing ideas. If we all agreed on everything there'd be no discussion
at all. You can't expect adults not to have a bit of banter, there's a
difference between aggression, abuse, and a bit of banter.

Yeah some people take it very personally, but some people would take
it personally if you didn't comment that their bread was lovely. Some
people have an ego the size of a planet and consequently take
everything personally, they can never be honest for fear of how they
look, they can never just say what they think for fear of it being
misinterpreted to make them look bad. You can see those people they
dodge and dive and they say they meant something else, you can't pin
them down to anything and they'd never say, 'yep, fair cop, I was
wrong.' Everyone sees the world a little differently, and even then
that changes from moment to moment. What you'd write at 10:00 isn't
what you'd write at half past. I've rewritten this twice. lol.

Don't accuse people of things like fighting, trolling, abusing, it
isn't very polite. You don't know their intention, you can't.

As for me not uploading my pictures. Again. It's my choice. I don't
have to sell myself, I have no need to. I have also nothing to hide
but I do have the same freedom to write how I see fit to this NG. I
make a big effort not to be abusive. I do make comments on peoples
thoughts and words from time to time, which some people take
personally, but as I showed above, your thoughts and words are no who
you are, if that were true you'd never change your mind. But that's a
whole different philosophical issue altogether.

Anything that I write if it's wrong with regard to bread baking, you
can be sure Sam, Dicky or even you Vince are going to put me straight.
There are also people more qualified than I am to comment on many
things so I don't. I avoid many issues, like Rye, and weird things
like Coccodrillo, whatever on this earth that is.

The fact that you only take pictures of your good bread says a great
deal Vince. Everyone can have incredible successes, take a photo and
then, what, everyone thinks you're now the bee's knee's? I make bread
for the flavour and satisfaction of eating good bread. I don't make it
to hang on a wall in a gallery. What it should look like is ********.
Atty's comments about his baguettes make that point. Who cares if your
bread meets the standard of this or that. I could move for laughing
when he said you can't make 100% sd baguettes. As long as it tastes
good to you, that's what matters unless of course you're selling to
the general ignorance, sorry, public. Ever heard The Emperor's New
Clothes?

Jim



On 13 Mar, 11:51, viince > wrote:
> Why you people always have to fight like this? geez this is a bread
> forum
>
> TG is right: recipes are stupid and if you follow them to the letter
> you'll make crap, and whenever your bread looks like crap, it's your
> fault, not the oven, not the flour, not the recipe.
>
> Mike is right: there is a purpose to upload pictures: When I see
> people talking about bread making as if they know so much, they are so
> great and so on, and then I see their pictures it makes me laugh and I
> stop giving much attention to what they write. If people see you can
> make good bread, they give you a bit more respect. I reckon.
>
> That's why whenever I make bread that looks like shit, I certainly
> won't take pictures of it. I even happened to put a loaf of bread
> straight from the oven to the bin because it was so horrible.
>
> Take it easy guys. Bread is life! Bread should make everybody happy

Yesterday, I decided to split my activated starter and try adding a
little bit of yeast to one part trying to emulate Vince's
description. I also tried using the more parallel slashing technique
as I observed in your video, Vince. I used a 505F oven in the longer
loaves. One the round loaf I reduced the temp after 12 mins to 475F.
The bottoms got too dark on the longer longs. Open for critique. No
actual written recipe used. I did add a little wheat gluten, a little
barley malt powder, sea salt, rye starter, a little flax meal, a
little WW flour, & white bread flour (King Arthur). (1/2 teaspoon
sugar to the dissolving yeast.) 2 long loaves and one 100% sourdough
round loaf with higher hydration.

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1983.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1989.jpg

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...4/IMGP1988.jpg

Lucy

Sorry, the photos are larger than I hoped...and they didn't include
the titles/comment.

I would have been happier with the outcome had I increased the
hydration a bit in the longer loaves.

LUcy

Those look really nice. You bake a lot hotter than I do. Something new
to try.

I also made some 'French Sticks' using 'viince's' cut method but stayed
all SD and they turned out nice. I put 3 photos in my sig line link's
album.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Trix wrote:
> Yesterday, I decided to split my activated starter and try adding a
> little bit of yeast to one part trying to emulate Vince's
> description.

First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't

check http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baguette and any other google for
baguette history, though its quite possible that early baguette, at
beginning of 20thC was often made with some addition of SD either
like Vince's or as rotten dough since for a while commercial yeast
was expensive and also even then French public reacted against lack of
flavour of 100% commercial yeast bread

Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
but don't call it 'baguette' if only common thing with this 'type' of
bread is vague shape and/or cut. Nobody is talking about following
exact recipes, there is clearly no one exact recipe for baguette, most
'artisanal' bakers in France nowadays offer at least two different
baguette (cheap and not so cheap 'baguette a la tradition' which is
defined by law in France) - sometimes many more. The point is these
will all be variations on the 'type' which is more than just shape.
The same applies to many other established 'type', caibatta, sangak
bread from Iran http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIfpsxRk_-4 (baked on
gravel) or any classic food or dish, there are things you can vary and
there are others you can't - or else you just say I made a nice bread
which I like, I might even have started from so and so type but where
I have arrived now isn't that 'type' any more.

>
> Mike
> Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

on the question of baguette cut. I never saw recipe with cuts across
the length of baguette (with scissors) unless you are referring to
fancy cuts such as epi or this one like crocodile's back. Surely the
usual point of any slash on loaf is to allow the 'muscle' you have
shaped into the loaf to expand, pump up freely and in nice even
fashion. To do that you cut along or diagonally to the direction of
the fibres of the muscle (to follow the analogy), effectively you are
dissecting off the skin the same way an anatomical demo would go, not
chop the muscle into little bits across its main fibre direction.

On your pics Mike. I think a baguette crust should when fresh be
first predominantly crunchy, crispy rather than chewy as you says
yours is. Looking at your pics I see that the edge of slashes are
rounded which tells me either you are using a flour too strong for the
'type' and/or you are using too much steam. I have seen the same
effect both in my own bread and commercially when people try to make
baguette with hard spring wheat, Canadian or whatever. Personally I
found in order to avoid this I had take foil covering off my baking
tray after 12 minutes as opposed to 30 minutes with a French flour.
Also from the way slashes look like wounds to me rather than a
liberation of the internal force of loaf that maybe they are over-
proofed? Whether a good approximation of French flour can be obtained
simply by using a mixture of a hard/strong flour and plain I am not
sure, I tend to think really also nature of gluten can be different,
even I have baked with English grown French variety wheat and result
is not the same - but I guess you have to go with what you have
available ...

yours
Andy Forbes

ps
I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
improve their own baking, not just squabble

For what it is worth, I prefer the taste of my 100% sourdough round
loaf. This was also baked about 3 or 4 hours after the
longer/'French' loaves. My husband seems to prefer the 'French' loaf
since it works better with his breakfast.






Lucy

Lol, What a ridiculous thing to say. We aren't talking about the
resurrection of Christ. lol. Atty you totally didn't understand what I
was saying. Are you such a slave to convention you can't make a
baguette from a naturally leavened dough because nobody has written it
down? Fair enough if you don't like it don't make it, but you can't
seriously write that you doubt the existence of a sd baguette. lol.
You'll have to come round so Thomas can put his finger in the hole.

You say 'squabble'. What do you mean? If you mean disagree then you've
just made yourself a hypocrite. Isn't having your say what a
discussion group is all about? If nobody is allowed to disagree, then
what is the point? If you mean be abusive then I totally agree.

Jim

On 14 Mar, 11:34, atty > wrote:
> First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
> thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't
>
.....
> ps
> I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
> good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
> improve their own baking, not just squabble

atty wrote:
<some snips>
> First I think I am quite entitled to doubt whether there is such a
> thing as a 100% sourdough baguette, certainly historically there isn't

I like to take any recipe that calls for commercial yeast and try it
with my sourdough starter instead just to see what I get. I use 2 cups
of active (at the double point) starter for one 'dose' or packet or 2.25
tsp of commercial yeast.
>
> Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
> but don't call it 'baguette'

I won't disagree which is why I called it a 'French Stick', not a
'Baguette'.
>
>> Mike
>> Some bread photos:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>
> on the question of baguette cut. I never saw recipe with cuts across
> the length of baguette

Yup, I had that one wrong from looking at a drawing wrong way back and
repeated it.

> On your pics Mike. I think a baguette crust should when fresh be
> first predominantly crunchy, crispy rather than chewy as you says
> yours is.

The crust is crunchy for the first bite, then goes chewy. Second day
after being covered is really nice and chewy.

Looking at your pics I see that the edge of slashes are
> rounded which tells me either you are using a flour too strong for the
> 'type' and/or you are using too much steam.

OK, good call, I 'did' use too much steam. I forgot the recipe said to
pull the pan of boiling water 'out' after 20 minutes. Interesting info.

I also use 'Canadian' all purpose unbleached flour. Five Roses Brand. I
should try some 'bread' flour some day.

> Also from the way slashes look like wounds to me rather than a
> liberation of the internal force of loaf that maybe they are over-
> proofed?

Very possibly over-proofed also. I had issues with the old worn out
oven not wanting to turn on both elements so the bread sat a bit long
while I farted around with hot connections. Even then it took a 'long'
time to get it up to a 425 preheat.

Whether a good approximation of French flour can be obtained
> simply by using a mixture of a hard/strong flour and plain I am not
> sure, I tend to think really also nature of gluten can be different,
> even I have baked with English grown French variety wheat and result
> is not the same - but I guess you have to go with what you have
> available ...

What about those bags of flour like 'gluten' or 'gluten flour' maybe
they call it I see at the natural food store I get my dark rye flour at?
Would an addition of some of that make a difference?
>
> ps
> I agree with Vince that short of tasting each others loaves, pics are
> good - if people are here genuinely on this list to learn more and
> improve their own baking, not just squabble
>
I agree also. I have been baking for years, but am new to bread and
really new to SD. My SD starter is just one year old now.

Mike

> atty wrote:
> Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
> but don't call it 'baguette'

I think that is taking the French fascistic way a little too far. It's
merely a convention after all. And a French one at that. There is no
need to ape the French. Though I can see the need for clarity in ones
language to dictate that you can't call it a baguette just because the
slash isn't right or it doesn't contain bakers yeast is too Gestapo
for me thanks very much. Like I said Atty, this whole notion of you
can't call it this or that is a convention. It's an aquired thought
process. There's no sane reason why it can't be called a baguette.
Okay maybe you can't comply to the FrEUnch standard and sell it as a
baguette, but take a look at the headers atty this is rec. not biz. As
long as it passes the duck test I'm okay with it.

Jim

On Mar 14, 4:56 pm, TG > wrote:
> > atty wrote:
> > Of course you can make whatever bread you fancy, it you like it fine,
> > but don't call it 'baguette'
>
> I think that is taking the French fascistic way a little too far. It's
> merely a convention after all. And a French one at that. There is no
> need to ape the French. Though I can see the need for clarity in ones
> language to dictate that you can't call it a baguette just because the
> slash isn't right or it doesn't contain bakers yeast is too Gestapo
> for me thanks very much. Like I said Atty, this whole notion of you
> can't call it this or that is a convention. It's an aquired thought
> process. There's no sane reason why it can't be called a baguette.
> Okay maybe you can't comply to the FrEUnch standard and sell it as a
> baguette, but take a look at the headers atty this is rec. not biz. As
> long as it passes the duck test I'm okay with it.
>
> Jim

Hi Jim,

words have definitions so their meaning can be shared, also classic
dishes and classic breads (and the names they have) have definitions,
you can't put "salade nicoise" on the menu, leave out the new
potatoes, lettuce, tomatoes and substitute mackerel for tuna. Maybe
you never consumed a good baguette, I dunno, certainly if you went to
the first baker you arrived at when landing on the shores of France
your chances of doing so would be fairly slim - terroir (land/
location) is certainly not everything. If you have some especial
dislike of the French why bother to appropriate a word from their
language to some other meaning/bread - precisely as do many a
supermarket business around the world, including in France?

If you read my previous posts carefully you would know I am precisely
on a mission the last month or 2 to see whether I can bake a
'baguette' that has what I regard as essential characteristics of a
'baguette' + recognisably some SD characteristics + 100% SD - or not -
it maybe a contradiction in terms. I maybe on a mission impossible, I
haven't seen any pro recipe yet that was 100% SD - certainly I think
label used quite often now "baguette a l'ancienne" is silly because
there was no ancient pre commercial yeast baguette. But clearly I
wouldn't have been repeating my recipe with various tweaks the last
few months at least twice a week if I knew for certain that it was a
mission impossible.

yours
atty

Hi Mike,

> I also use 'Canadian' all purpose unbleached flour. Five Roses Brand. I
> should try some 'bread' flour some day.

really nice to have someone put their hand up in general when someone
makes less than positive remarks

so I am interested that you say you are using 'all purpose' Canadian
flour which would imply that my analysis that you were using too
strong a flour was wrong. But maybe Canadian definition of 'all-
purpose' in not other people's, do you have a figure on the packet for
percentage of protein like we do in UK. Typically here in UK a bread
flour would be 11% to 15% (15 = so called ultra-strong bread machine
flour) and plain/all purpose/cake would be 8 to 9% - French bread
flour however is typically 9% to 10% - but this still begs the
question as to whether all wheat varieties have the same gluten in
them. I certainly don't think adding gluten flour (whatever it is,
added gluten?) will improve you baguette though it might be good for
other breads if you are mixing with 'all-purpose', rather I would
concentrate on other things such as reducing steam and tweaking
proofing.


> Very possibly over-proofed also. I had issues with the old worn out
> oven not wanting to turn on both elements so the bread sat a bit long
> while I farted around with hot connections. Even then it took a 'long'
> time to get it up to a 425 preheat.

I have similar problems with my domestic oven, it takes at least two
and half hours to get to 400F and impossible to get higher and really
baguette should be at least 450F up to 550F in order to get crust
without over doing interior. When I switch to my outdoor wood-fired
oven in the next few weeks I can easily get higher but then creating
any steam is difficult since it has quite a high domed ceiling and not
very airtight ... maybe I try some experiments with a kettle and a
nozzle/tube into the oven ... could be a good way to use charcoal/fire
when the fire is taken out of oven for baking.

yours
atty

Jim: Nobody likes to eat something that looks like crap.
If you make bread that looks horrible, nobody will buy it, even if it
taste beautiful. Same works the other way, if you make bread that
looks beautiful, people will buy it, even if it taste like shit
(that's what's been happening for the last 40years in France)

And when I say fighting, I might not use the right word, but most
stuff I read here are very childish and people picking on each other
on little details and playing on words and all this bullshit. That's
how I see it.

vince said:
"most stuff I read here are very childish and people picking on each
other
on little details and playing on words and all this bullshit."

You are absolutely right, Vince. You have lots of wisdom for your age
and you make beautiful bread that probably tastes great too.

Lucy

vince,

When you said you make slashes holding the knife parallel to the
bread, did you mean kind of laying the knife down as you slash or just
in the slashes parallel to the length of the dough?...you were very
fast in your video...did my slashes look ok?

I had been having a problem finding the right knife to use to make the
slashes so, I ordered a victorinox tomato knife (as you
suggested)...it has a split tip...did you cut that tip off, or did
yours not have that kind of tip?

Lucy

atty wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>
>> I also use 'Canadian' all purpose unbleached flour. Five Roses Brand. I
>> should try some 'bread' flour some day.
>
> really nice to have someone put their hand up in general when someone
> makes less than positive remarks

I like to learn and teach back if I can.

>
> so I am interested that you say you are using 'all purpose' Canadian
> flour which would imply that my analysis that you were using too
> strong a flour was wrong. But maybe Canadian definition of 'all-
> purpose' in not other people's, do you have a figure on the packet for
> percentage of protein like we do in UK. Typically here in UK a bread
> flour would be 11% to 15% (15 = so called ultra-strong bread machine
> flour) and plain/all purpose/cake would be 8 to 9% - French bread
> flour however is typically 9% to 10% -

This stuff has 4 grams per 30 or 13.33% protein and is enriched with
thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, iron, folic acid (folate). Woah, that was
a mouthful, eh.

> question as to whether all wheat varieties have the same gluten in
> them. I certainly don't think adding gluten flour (whatever it is,but this still begs the
> added gluten?) will improve you baguette though it might be good for
> other breads if you are mixing with 'all-purpose', rather I would
> concentrate on other things such as reducing steam and tweaking
> proofing.

This particular recipe was a 'no knead' recipe so it developed it's
gluten from the rise action. My kneaded bread rises really nice and
light normally so the gluten content must be close to right.

I space out time too some days though so need a timer.

The next 'French sticks' I will make will be a mix of commercial and SD
or maybe just a plain commercial yeast loaf.

You mention in another post about working on a percentage loaf like the
commercial bakers use. Viince uses .5% so if I have 56 oz total flour,
I would need 1 oz yeast I guess. I have come extremely close to the
taste and texture of local grocery stores like Loblaws and Dominion's
'San Fransisco' style sourdough loaf by using 3 oz of commercial yeast
per 7 cups (56 oz) of total flour including the SD sponge. I will try a
lighter dose next time.

I don't normally talk about such 'abominations' here in the sourdough
group because it seem to upset some folks, but commercial yeast breads
do have their place around my house and a mix of both yeasts isn't
unusual for me to bake. We haven't bought a bread product since I
started baking it about 3 or 4 years ago.

> baguette should be at least 450F up to 550F in order to get crust
> without over doing interior. When I switch to my outdoor wood-fired
> oven in the next few weeks I can easily get higher but then creating
> any steam is difficult since it has quite a high domed ceiling and not
> very airtight ... maybe I try some experiments with a kettle and a
> nozzle/tube into the oven ... could be a good way to use charcoal/fire
> when the fire is taken out of oven for baking.

What about a pan of boiling water? That would appear to have been more
than enough for my oven, but then a wood fired one, well...

If you use a kettle and a nozzle be sure you include a pressure relief
valve like a pressure cooker or have a top that will pop off if to much
pressure happens. Steam is extremely powerful.

I do have a Coleman Oven that fits on my Coleman 'white gas' Stove and
it sure will get up to 550 easy and would be easy to steam. I might
just try that for some shorty French sticks, it's only 9' wide so maybe
a 12" stick would fit corner to corner. I will try it next time camping
for sure, it does make good bread.

I plan on learning about wood fired ovens because we plan on having
place for one when we next relocate to the 'country' from the big city,
Toronto.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On 15 Mar, 11:41, viince > wrote:
> Jim: Nobody likes to eat something that looks like crap....

atty wrote:
> words have definitions so their meaning can be shared, also classic
> dishes and classic breads (and the names they have) have definitions,


Vince, atty,

I can see I'm wasting my efforts trying to discuss it with you. You
aren't listening, you mind is firmly fixed in the commercial French
bakery, the world is a bigger place. Atty I can assure you I have
nothing against the French in the slightest, I speak French, albeit
badly. I've spent a lot of time in France. One of the monastic
communities I was part of was in Limoge, baguettes were a staple part
of our menu, so don't patronise me or insult me. I really don't see
why I have to have read all your posts to be qualified to comment.
This is an open group to anyone, I don't have to follow every thread
you make to be qualified to comment on part or all of one. Get over
yourself.

I can perfectly understand what both of you are saying and appreciate
the point of both the need for definition and the French standard. Can
I remind both of you of what I said: "... I can see the need for
clarity in ones language..." Unfortunately both of you have totally
failed to comprehend my point. You think because I'm not in total
agreement I am therefore totally opposed. This is childish and
ignorant. Atty get over this late 20th C notion that one has to be
'possitive'. It's naive and firmly fixes your mind as the subservient,
docile subject, get real and learn a little wisdom.

With regard to 'nobody will buy it'. Can I just reiterate that this
group is rec. which means recreation. Also I wasn't aware that Atty
was a commercial baker. If this were 'The bakers guild of France' I
wouldn't have said anything, I wouldn't be posting either because I'm
not a commercial baker, I don't have to be bound by EU regulations or
even French regulations. Not because I have anything against either
the EU or France, neither is this a strictly European group. Are you
so confused that you have to project your need to ape the French on
the rest of the world. Don't insult us.


On the point of definition: from the COD and New Oxford American
Dictionary

baguette |baˈget|
noun
1 a long, narrow French loaf.
2 a gem, esp. a diamond, cut in a long rectangular shape : [often as
modifier ] a baguette diamond.
3 Architecture a small molding, semicircular in section.
4 a slim, rectangular handbag.
ORIGIN early 18th cent. (sense 3) : from French, from Italian
bacchetto, diminutive of bacchio, from Latin baculum "staff. Senses 1
and 2 date from the 20th cent.

It says nothing of the number of slashes or containing yeast the point
being for the English speaking world a baguette is a long, narrow
loaf. Though the assumption about what a French loaf is seems to be a
tautology.

"French bread
noun
white bread in a long, crisp loaf." (yes there's more to French bread
than white sticks, but the point is common usage)

Jim

Wow, I think Roger Penrose and Steven Hawking might like a word with
you about that. : -)

On 15 Mar, 15:45, Mike Romain > wrote:
...
> I space out time too some days though so need a timer.



> Mike

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 04:41:03 -0700 (PDT), viince >
wrote:
You are absolutely right, Vince. I hope you can just ignore the petty
BS and continue posting. Your pictures and videos are fantastic!

Burney

>Jim: Nobody likes to eat something that looks like crap.
>If you make bread that looks horrible, nobody will buy it, even if it
>taste beautiful. Same works the other way, if you make bread that
>looks beautiful, people will buy it, even if it taste like shit
>(that's what's been happening for the last 40years in France)
>
>And when I say fighting, I might not use the right word, but most
>stuff I read here are very childish and people picking on each other
>on little details and playing on words and all this bullshit. That's
>how I see it.




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com