Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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Old 07-03-2008, 10:24 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
like to watch them!

here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince

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Old 08-03-2008, 07:24 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Mar 7, 12:24*am, viince wrote:
Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
like to watch them!

here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince


One might think you've been doing that for a while Viince.... made a
couple loaves before??
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Old 09-03-2008, 02:56 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Fri, 7 Mar 2008 01:24:39 -0800 (PST), viince
wrote:

Hello. I made a few videos yesterday and I though some of you might
like to watch them!

here we go:

http://www.youtube.com/user/mynameisviince



Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.

What temp is the oven?

Boron?
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Old 09-03-2008, 12:15 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.

What temp is the oven?


250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.
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Old 09-03-2008, 01:49 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince wrote:
Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.


What temp is the oven?


250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.


I meant without forming too much crust.


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Old 09-03-2008, 05:29 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Hi Vince,

great videos, love the way you mix your accent with the London glottal
stop. : -)

Thanks for sharing those.

Jim

On 9 Mar, 12:49, viince wrote:
On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince wrote:

Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.


What temp is the oven?


250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.


I meant without forming too much crust.


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Old 09-03-2008, 07:54 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 04:15:53 -0700 (PDT), viince
wrote:


Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.

What temp is the oven?


250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.


Lovely oven.

I can get my home oven to 260C for bread baking and often do my
leanest sourdoughs there at least for a start.

When I win the lottery I want an industrial baking area tucked off to
one side of the kitchen. OH, and a wood-fired oven, too.

Boron
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:02 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 05:49:50 -0700 (PDT), viince
wrote:

On Mar 9, 11:15 am, viince wrote:
Very nice. Thanks for providing the links.


What temp is the oven?


250C most of times, sometimes 240, sometimes 260 or 270. I like to
bake them at quite a high temperature so they get a nice colour with
forming too much crust, people like ciabatta to be soft, not crusty.


I meant without forming too much crust.



I know, no one really wants a really soft crust on a ciabatta.

Boron
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Old 10-03-2008, 02:55 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866

http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322

These are the ciabatte from the videos
They don't get all so round on the top, some kinda collapsed in the
middle, bit like a bone, but I liked that one the best.
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:46 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Mar 9, 6:55 pm, viince wrote:
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866

http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322

These are the ciabatte from the videos
They don't get all so round on the top, some kinda collapsed in the
middle, bit like a bone, but I liked that one the best.


Ed asks:

Vince - Were the baguettes in the first videos made from sourdough or
yeasted dough? Thanks for sharing.

Ed Bechtel


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Old 10-03-2008, 09:01 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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"Ed" wrote in message ...
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24845664054866
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...24910088564322

Vince - Were the baguettes in the first videos made from sourdough or
yeasted dough?


Ah, Ed, there you go, like Kenneth, with the rhetorical questions. Hey, in
that bakery, do you think they got time to muck around with sourdough?
Off topic with very little doubt. But, for here, still the best show in town.
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Old 11-03-2008, 01:24 AM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.

We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
miche) and the 100% rye.
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Old 11-03-2008, 02:02 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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On Mar 11, 12:24 am, viince wrote:
Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.

We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
miche) and the 100% rye.


On Mar 11, 12:24 am, viince wrote:
Our flutes have .5 percent yeast, and 20 percent rye starter.

We make only 2 breads without any yeast : The Pagnotta (poilane style
miche) and the 100% rye.


I can testify (from consuming) that the rye sourdough starter addition
is very important part of the character of the bread Vince makes,
essentially I would say for adding flavour and keeping qualities. I
think Vince will agree that that since starter is rye fed the day
before use, it's peaked in terms of C02 production, done full drop and
gone to the sour before use.

Personally I have been experimenting with trying to produce a pure
sourdough 'baguette' the last few weeks. I am not even certain that
classically there can really be such a thing as a pure sourdough
baguette, that the type is not intrinsically and historically a post
commercial yeast Parisian invention. For instance in the professional
baker's book Vince recently lent me "Le pain, l'envers du décor"
http://www.amazon.fr/dp/2914449054/ there are 5 recipes for baguette
including one 'baguette au levain' but even here for 1700g main flour
there is 500g levain naturel (55% hydration) and 3g yeast. Another pro
baker friend starting a new bakery where they tried to make all breads
100% sourdough has given in and added a touch of commercial yeast to
his baguette.

Still I persist to try and create something which 100% sourdough that
is both recognisably sourdough and at same time has both crunchy crust
and fresh fluffy quite open and varied crumb of classical baguette. I
should mention I do have benefit of true French flour from Vince's
place (all their flour is French). So far I don't have possibility to
make the regulation length and weight (http://www.viamichelin.co.uk/
viamichelin/gbr/tpl/mag5/art20080301/htm/tour-gastro-meilleure-
baguette-paris-2008.htm) because my winter domestic oven is just that
in dimension, domestic. In fact its very rare for any baker in UK to
attempt this, usually the UK baguette however authentic it claims to
be is heavier and shorter, partly I think to avoid the strict demands
of time and space of the traditional form, partly because the thinner
cross section means keeping qualities are such buying bread twice a
day is really required, which UK customer will not do and partly
because normal UK use is for sandwich rather than chopped/torn eaten
with food without butter etc

Anyway I am working with variations of my current favoured method, a
combination of sourdough starter at a poolish type hydration (around
100%) refreshed to peak activity before use and pre-ferment or 'rotten
dough' i.e. a portion of dough saved over from previous baking, very
sour and gone gooey. To begin with I tried 22% (baker's percentage of
flour in addition to main/final flour) rotten dough and 22% starter, 1
hour autolyse before addition of starter and the rotten dough and
about 6 and half hour total rising before baking with initial final
dough temperature of 19C rising in heated room to 22C, but
essentially this gave a crumb that was too rigid and gelatinous for
baguette. So I reduced to around 14% rotten dough and 15% starter and
whilst crumb was lighter/fresher in texture this had effect of
requiring up to 12 hour rising which since I am preparing to bake out
doors again soon is not suitable (not enough daylight yet). So I moved
to higher percentage of starter so faster but now tipped to crumbly
crumb. Now I have gone back to 14% and 15% but without any warmed
water in final mix (initial final doudh 12C) and cold kitchen over
night rising - so total 18 hour rising. Finally I think results are in
right direction and can fit when I move to outdoor oven. various pics
http://www.myplot.org/oven/gallery.p...e=6&project=13 and the
gallery pages before

A main problem is both my own lack of real shaping prowess of a
professional such as Vince and limitation of my domestic oven, I have
been baking these baguette 2 at a time in a steep sided quite deep
oven tray with foil over top for 1st half hour + my domestic oven will
not go over 200C however long I pre heat so I think burst of heat from
tray floor is limited. Result is I very rarely get a nice cylindrical
cross section + I cannot really slash with freedom because of these
sides to the tray. Having said this the balancing act between of
hydration between getting an open crumb and retaining a cylindrical
cross section (without one of those curved baguette baking trays to
cheat) is very fine - somewhere between 59% total hydration and 62%
with French flour (more like 67% with a stronger flour but you will
not get some proper crunchy crust).

We shall see when I get to my outdoor oven what transpires ...

yours
andy forbes

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Old 11-03-2008, 04:36 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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atty wrote:

Personally I have been experimenting with trying to produce a pure
sourdough 'baguette' the last few weeks.
andy forbes


I found a decent recipe that makes a very good 'baguette' or French
stick in the Joy of Cooking. I substitute 2 cups of 'active' SD starter
(my idea of 'active' is in the growth period at the double the volume
point) for 1 'dose' of yeast (packet, 2.25 tsp,cake, etc...) and it
comes out very nice. The crust is really chewy and really nice and sour
tasting with an airy soft crumb. My 'market' really likes it and is
asking for more.

Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:
http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
shots album. Photo #2.

The recipe I made up using my SD instead of commercial yeast is posted
in the thread "A Good Sourdough Day - Take 3". That mix made two large
loaves that were consistent with previous bakes for crust and crumb.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
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Old 11-03-2008, 05:31 PM posted to rec.food.sourdough
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Here are a couple photos of the last 2 loaves in the 'featured' album:http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

There another photo of this type of French stick in my misc. cooking
shots album. Photo #2.


Hi Mike,

I wouldn't say I am a purist but I think you must have missed Vince's
note about not slashing at right angles to the length of loaf and I
would have one or two other quibbles about whether your pics/loaves
can be termed baguette

maybe compare with
http://www.viamichelin.fr/viamicheli...ries-paris.htm

having said that one does have the strange dichotomy nowadays that
quite a few trendy artisanal pro bakers, in France and elsewhere, are
striving to produce loaves (including baguette) that have an obviously
handmade/homemade style, irregular width and shape etc. whilst us
amateurs strive for the opposite.

yours
atty




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