I'm losing the sourness in my final product again. It's the second such
episode in my two month career. I bake about 3.5# of dough every day.

I'm doing everything the same. I feed 50/50 twice a day, usually 8 oz or
so, sometimes 10. The starter is robust and operates the same as before.
The texture and bubbles are the same -- great. But the sour flavors are
very mild.

Last time this happened, I let some starter sit there for a week until it
got a good yellow layer of liquid on top, mixed everything well, threw out
all but a cup or so and started feeding again. That fix worked well.

My only other thought is that McGee says aeration favors yeast development
over the bacteria. So I have been mixing pretty hard with a fork to
emphasize the leavening strength. That technique seems to work. Maybe if I
mix in less air, the bacteria will get a greater portion of the feed.
Ideas?

I'm tempted to split my starter into three and begin to feed in different
manners. The downside of that approach is that I'll drown in bread, as
opposed to simply wallowing.

Fermentation times are roughly the same as before. I don't really time the
first rise, just wait until it's up to the top of the mixer bowl. I have
allowed the last few batches to rise even further, lengthening the total
time to see if it sours more. Nope.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Pete Kolstad

"Peter Kolstad" > wrote in message ...

> I'm losing the sourness in my final product again ... I'm tempted to split
> my starter into three and begin to feed in different manners.

> Any advice would be appreciated.

The sourness and flavor develop during the rise. This is our secret at
r.f.s. We have not informed the writers of books about baking. We
do tell the noobies sometimes, but we know they will not believe it.

Mucking around with your "starter" has very little to do with it, except
that starter needs to be very actively fermenting for the bread to rise right.

Unless you are making traditional sour rye bread. Then you need to
go to Sam(artha) to get thoroughly confused.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Peter Kolstad" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>> I'm losing the sourness in my final product again ... I'm tempted to split
>> my starter into three and begin to feed in different manners.
>>
>
>
>> Any advice would be appreciated.
>>
>
> The sourness and flavor develop during the rise. This is our secret at
> r.f.s. We have not informed the writers of books about baking. We
> do tell the noobies sometimes, but we know they will not believe it.
>
> Mucking around with your "starter" has very little to do with it, except
> that starter needs to be very actively fermenting for the bread to rise right.
>
> Unless you are making traditional sour rye bread. Then you need to
> go to Sam(artha) to get thoroughly confused.
>
>
I tried Google with sourdough FAQ "not sour" - did not really work -
then I remember there could be something in that area:

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#057

This should be tested that it's not working with white sissy bread, though.

I mean, if you have a high number of A's and a low number of B's in your
starter - would not the A's become more than the B's - with even
chances, just based on their nombers?

And if too much of "A" results happens in your bread, maybe promoting
the "B's" could help?

So - that would be an A or B question?

Sam

Peter Kolstad wrote:
> I'm losing the sourness in my final product again. It's the second such
> episode in my two month career. I bake about 3.5# of dough every day.
>
> I'm doing everything the same. I feed 50/50 twice a day, usually 8 oz or
> so, sometimes 10. The starter is robust and operates the same as before.
> The texture and bubbles are the same -- great. But the sour flavors are
> very mild.
>
> Last time this happened, I let some starter sit there for a week until it
> got a good yellow layer of liquid on top, mixed everything well, threw out
> all but a cup or so and started feeding again. That fix worked well.
>
> My only other thought is that McGee says aeration favors yeast development
> over the bacteria. So I have been mixing pretty hard with a fork to
> emphasize the leavening strength. That technique seems to work. Maybe if I
> mix in less air, the bacteria will get a greater portion of the feed.
> Ideas?
>
> I'm tempted to split my starter into three and begin to feed in different
> manners. The downside of that approach is that I'll drown in bread, as
> opposed to simply wallowing.
>
> Fermentation times are roughly the same as before. I don't really time the
> first rise, just wait until it's up to the top of the mixer bowl. I have
> allowed the last few batches to rise even further, lengthening the total
> time to see if it sours more. Nope.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Pete Kolstad
>
>

One recipe I have calls for a 'sour' starter to make English muffins.
It asks for the sponge to be fed well and left to rise and 'fall' before
doing the final mix. This 'fall' time was well over 24 hours earlier
this week. (Strange weather) Once it finally fell (close to 36 hours)
and I finished it, the muffins turned out really nice.

When I want to make a 'sour' tasting loaf, I do the same, give it a real
long feed or even two or three, then a fast feed after to get it lively
again without discarding any.

That seems to work well for me. I have also gone to the hooch stage
like you mention to get the starter nice and sour, but found I don't
need to.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Sam" > wrote in message news:mailman.55.1200753919.4119.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior..com...

> ... This should be tested that it's not working with white sissy bread, though.

You should know that Arnold eats the sissy bread, particularly when he goes
to San Francisco.

> ... I mean, if you have a high number of A's and a low number of B's in your
> starter - would not the A's become more than the B's - with even
> chances, just based on their nombers?

Well, if it is SF-type sourdough we are talking about, and you get the A's and
B's into the natural balance which typifies ready-to-use starter, you will have the
same balance you had last time, and will have the next time. As the dough matures
and rises, the balance may change in favor of the B's, which eat the A's among
various dietary items, as the A's get weakened the the diminution of their staple,
sugar, because of having eaten it mostly up.

Although this theory seems consistent with the facts, it is not reflected in the
opinions of the people who know all about baking bread and write books and
technical papers on the subject, so I will have to apologize for them in that respect.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Sam" > wrote in message news:mailman.55.1200753919.4119.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>
>
>> ... This should be tested that it's not working with white sissy bread, though.
>>
>
> You should know that Arnold eats the sissy bread, particularly when he goes
> to San Francisco.
>
>
Ok - at one point, he was Austrian and I won't go into that here. Other
than that, I have heard that he is actually using his brain to try to do
the right things and some people were thinking of changing the law so he
can become president aspirant.

Maybe sissy bread was too narrow a definition -

What would be a sissy bread for me?

- light white flour bread baked in a rectangular baking pan somewhat
approximating wonder bread-style plastic wrapped supermarket shelf breads.

The baker avoids the challenges of shaping a loaf and is ok with having
a bread with little character.
>> ... I mean, if you have a high number of A's and a low number of B's in your
>> starter - would not the A's become more than the B's - with even
>> chances, just based on their nombers?
>>
>
> Well, if it is SF-type sourdough we are talking about, and you get the A's and
> B's into the natural balance which typifies ready-to-use starter, you will have the
> same balance you had last time, and will have the next time. As the dough matures
> and rises, the balance may change in favor of the B's, which eat the A's among
> various dietary items, as the A's get weakened the the diminution of their staple,
> sugar, because of having eaten it mostly up.
>
>
In other words - the A's would be yeasts, and the B's the LB's.

So, you are saying in principle, the yeasts run ahead, eating up all the
sugar and die partially off and the LB's coming after, eating the
yeast's remains and make the sour and taste, die off too and at the end
it's the same again because somewhere, there is a natural balance? Or -
if you catch them earlier - they won't die all off too much and you make
your bread, taking some of the starter to keep for next time?
> Although this theory seems consistent with the facts, it is not reflected in the
> opinions of the people who know all about baking bread and write books and
> technical papers on the subject, so I will have to apologize for them in that respect.
>
>
So you have some kind of secret lab somewhere in your garage where you
figure all that out?
(you don't have to admit that in public)

Sam

On Jan 19, 11:23*am, "Peter Kolstad" > wrote:
> I'm losing the sourness in my final product again. *It's the second such
> episode in my two month career. *I bake about 3.5# of dough every day.
>
> I'm doing everything the same. *I feed 50/50 twice a day, usually 8 oz or
> so, sometimes 10. *The starter is robust and operates the same as before..
> The texture and bubbles are the same -- great. *But the sour flavors are
> very mild.
>
> Last time this happened, I let some starter sit there for a week until it
> got a good yellow layer of liquid on top, mixed everything well, threw out
> all but a cup or so and started feeding again. *That fix worked well.
>
> My only other thought is that McGee says aeration favors yeast development
> over the bacteria. *So I have been mixing pretty hard with a fork to
> emphasize the leavening strength. *That technique seems to work. *Maybe if I
> mix in less air, the bacteria will get a greater portion of the feed.
> Ideas?
>
> I'm tempted to split my starter into three and begin to feed in different
> manners. *The downside of that approach is that I'll drown in bread, as
> opposed to simply wallowing.
>
> Fermentation times are roughly the same as before. *I don't really time the
> first rise, just wait until it's up to the top of the mixer bowl. *I have
> allowed the last few batches to rise even further, lengthening the total
> time to see if it sours more. *Nope.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated.
>
> Pete Kolstad

You can try splitting your starter in half, keep one half feeding it
as you do, which would give you the rise of your bread, with the other
half, just keep it longer to make it overferment or rot, then when you
make your bread put half of each starter. I do this for my sourdough
bread.