a few months ago I bought a starter from king arthur. Since then I
have been baking quite a bit with both commercial and sourdough yeast.
I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
is from here http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Rye/Detail.aspx .
When I was mixing the dough was extremely loose so I added flour
(Bread only) I got the dough to where it was tacky to the touch but
dough did not come away when I moved my hand. This is normally how I
make my bread doughs and I am thinking this is much to dry for rye.

Does anyone have a good starting rye recipe preferably using weight.

What texture and feel makes a good rye dough and a good sourdough in
general?

The starter eats bread flour FYI

Ray

Hi, Ray,

At either of the web sites I've provided you can find good rye recipes
using weights. Both site owners are active in this group and seem
more than willing to help people who migh have trouble. Both sites,
as you will notice, offer lots more than just recipes, too.

Good luck!

http://samartha.net/SD/

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/recipes.html

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:59:23 -0700, Madcat > wrote:

>a few months ago I bought a starter from king arthur. Since then I
>have been baking quite a bit with both commercial and sourdough yeast.
>I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
>flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
>is from here http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Rye/Detail.aspx .
>When I was mixing the dough was extremely loose so I added flour
>(Bread only) I got the dough to where it was tacky to the touch but
>dough did not come away when I moved my hand. This is normally how I
>make my bread doughs and I am thinking this is much to dry for rye.
>
>Does anyone have a good starting rye recipe preferably using weight.
>
>What texture and feel makes a good rye dough and a good sourdough in
>general?
>
>The starter eats bread flour FYI
>
>Ray




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

Thanks,

I have been to mikes site many times and made the blackbean chipotle
bread. I was surprised I couldn't find a rye bread recipe thei in the
past then after your link I saw it under Bohemian Rye.

Ray

Madcat wrote:
> a few months ago I bought a starter from king arthur. Since then I
> have been baking quite a bit with both commercial and sourdough yeast.
> I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
> flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
> is from here http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Rye/Detail.aspx .
> When I was mixing the dough was extremely loose so I added flour
> (Bread only) I got the dough to where it was tacky to the touch but
> dough did not come away when I moved my hand. This is normally how I
> make my bread doughs and I am thinking this is much to dry for rye.
>
> Does anyone have a good starting rye recipe preferably using weight.
>
> What texture and feel makes a good rye dough and a good sourdough in
> general?
>
> The starter eats bread flour FYI
>
> Ray
>
>
Ahw well....

Sugar, oil - not required
Thumping to determine baking end is a rumor, meat loaf/turkey/whatever
thermometer from your next supermarket for $ 6 does the trick - 180 F in
loaf center (other's go higher).

Not sure why the starter is fed with white (bread) flour?

Starter "grooming" for rye is essential to have enough acidity to
defeat amylase activity. If that fails, you will get very dense loaf
areas starting on the bottom. The dense areas have no "bubbles"
whatsoever. There is a picture of an excellent "dud" the

http://samartha.net/images/SD/ffandfunnies.html

If your loaf looks anything like that, it's a starter issue. If there
are crumb holes in every part of the bread and they are just small and
this is all causing the density, it's a rye bread characteristic: much
denser bread and ok.

The "tacky" test is useless with rye. Rye is as sticky as it can get.
Handling rye dough is best with wet hand previously dipped in cold water.
Reason for all this is that the "glue" holding the gas for crumb with
rye is pentosans (sugars), not gluten (proteins) and it has some slimy
quality. Maybe a little bit like clay shaping, although way not so
"strong" as clay.

Rising - only once, final loaf shaped after mixing. Dough loaf
structure is fragile, punchdown: no - if you have rise on a loaf, keep
it, bake it before it breaks apart!

Above is for 100 % rye. If you introduce wheat, the characteristic
changes towards wheat/gluten based handling - maybe valid until 40-ish %
rye. Then rye characteristics prevail.


> INGREDIENTS
>
> * 1 cup rye flour
> * 1/2 cup bread flour
> * 2/3 cup water
>
That appears to be the starter step. Do we start with one cup of starter?
So at this point, we have (assumed/guessed) 1/2 cup flour from the
starter and add 1 1/2 cups flour giving 2 cups flour in the starter
after tripling the flour and letting it sit over night (8 hours). This
would make sense with the starter coming out of a fridge.
>
> * 1/4 cup water
> * 1/2 tablespoon salt
> * 1 tablespoon white sugar
> * 1 tablespoon olive oil
> * 1 tablespoon caraway seed
> * 1 cup rye flour
> * 1 cup bread flour
> * 1 cup sourdough starter
> * 1/2 cup water (optional)
> * 1 teaspoon salt (optional)
>
>
here we add another 2 cups of flour and a ratio of rye/wheat is?

starter has maybe 2/3, since he is using bread flour 1/3 of bread flour

starter: 2/3 cups rye 1/3 cups white
dough 1 cup rye 1 cup white
1.666 cups rye, 1.333 cups white so - 55 % rye, 45 % white

The starter flour % looks high at 50 % but should work anyway.

The recipe makes kind of sense IMO. It's not talking much about starter
growing/keeping and I will not try to sort out the hydration with the
goofy cup measurements. Try metric weights - much easier to figure
things out.

Maybe you have a starter issue but it may be also just not being used to
the rye bread density.
If you verify what I wrote about the dud and more denser rye crumb, you
could figure what is wrong/needs improving. Focused (often hard to do)
crumb pictures help.

Sam

Sam,

I'll see If any of the dud bread is left (they liked it at work). I
think the problem was 2 fold.

1. I Think I added to much flour. Your description on how the dough
should look/feel convinced me of that

2. I mixed the bread before work and let the rise happen in the
fridge. I got a doubling (or nearly) but then as per the recipe I
punched down and it never really came back up (Dough may have never
fully warmed)

On the bright side we had a fully developed rye flavor

Madcat wrote:
> Sam,
>
> I'll see If any of the dud bread is left (they liked it at work). I
> think the problem was 2 fold.
>
> 1. I Think I added to much flour. Your description on how the dough
> should look/feel convinced me of that
>
>
This would be a hydration (water amount/total flour weight) issue.
Little water can cause dense crumb (small holes) as well.
> 2. I mixed the bread before work and let the rise happen in the
> fridge. I got a doubling (or nearly) but then as per the recipe I
> punched down and it never really came back up (Dough may have never
> fully warmed)
>
>
With your mix - 55 % rye, 45 % bread flour, you may get second rises and
do it with the 2 x rise method.
If you have your bread in the fridge for ~ 6 - 8 hours, then punch it
down, it takes long time - maybe 4 hours to come back up again.
> On the bright side we had a fully developed rye flavor
>
>
For first time - good!

Sam

Hello "Madcat" & all;

"Madcat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>a few months ago I bought a starter from king arthur. Since then I
> have been baking quite a bit with both commercial and sourdough yeast.
> I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
> flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
The one I've been using can be found he
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/RyeBread.htm. It's
definitely not dense with a tight crumb. It's about as perfect a rye loaf
as I've ever eaten. Of course, as with all things either SD or home-baked,
YMMV...(:-o)!

In any event, have fun building your loaves. If you're agonizing over the
process rather than enjoying it, you're probably not doing it right...(:-o)!


Regards my friend,
Dusty

....
> Does anyone have a good starting rye recipe preferably using weight.
>
> What texture and feel makes a good rye dough and a good sourdough in
> general?
>
> The starter eats bread flour FYI
>
> Ray
>

> In any event, have fun building your loaves. If you're agonizing over the
> process rather than enjoying it, you're probably not doing it right...(:-o)!
>
> Regards my friend,
> Dusty
>
Thanks for the recipe. I'll take a gander

I never aganize over the process I just look at it as part of the
journey. That being said the better I understand the process, the
easier it is to move foward or to know what detours I can make.

Ray

G'day "Madcat" & all;

"Madcat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
....
> Thanks for the recipe. I'll take a gander
My pleasure.

> I never aganize over the process I just look at it as part of the
> journey. That being said the better I understand the process, the
> easier it is to move foward or to know what detours I can make.
Absolutely spot-on! That's the way it's supposed to work. You, my friend,
are taking all of the right steps. Congrats!

Now go bake some Rye Bread...(:-o)!


Regards all,
Dusty

>
> Ray
>

So all week I have been increasing my starter and tommorow we bake.

I have 36 oz of starter ready to go

18 for rye and 18 for white.

Ray

For whatever it's worth, I use one part rye flour, one part graham flour,
and three parts bread flour. I've been using it for years, and it produces a
very fine bread in both taste and texture. Carraway seeds optional.

-- Ray

"Madcat" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>a few months ago I bought a starter from king arthur. Since then I
> have been baking quite a bit with both commercial and sourdough yeast.
> I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
> flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
> is from here http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Rye/Detail.aspx .
> When I was mixing the dough was extremely loose so I added flour
> (Bread only) I got the dough to where it was tacky to the touch but
> dough did not come away when I moved my hand. This is normally how I
> make my bread doughs and I am thinking this is much to dry for rye.
>
> Does anyone have a good starting rye recipe preferably using weight.
>
> What texture and feel makes a good rye dough and a good sourdough in
> general?
>
> The starter eats bread flour FYI
>
> Ray
>

"Madcat" > wrote in message
ups.com...

> I baked my first rye loaf the other day and while it was very
> flavorfull it was extremely dense with a very tight crumb. the recipe
> is from here http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sourdough-Rye/Detail.aspx .


Some belated two-bits-worth from a seasoned rye-bread baker.

If you are just starting with baking rye-breads and have *no*
preconceptions about how it <should |should not> be done, then you have 2
alternative strategies open to you:

1. Take the listed ingredients of your chosen recipe as gospel and play
with the procedure until you get something that you like to eat; or

2. Settle on a procedure that you can live with and play with the
ingredients (type and amounts).

In my case (located in Australia), only the second option was viable
because our flours appear to have only a passing resemblance to the flours
that are available in the US and in Europe.

And one other comment.

I looked at the quoted URL and note that the (favorable) comments date
from 2003/4.

A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since then. You might find
it helpful to view some relevant threads, that have posted to this NG.

Good luck.

Felix Karpfen



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Well this round went a lot better but, I did have a few challenges.

First I used Mike bohemian rye recipe. It was quite good.

The first rise went well and did double.

I was getting good rise on the second round but I also got a lot of
cracking on the surface (I will post pictures this weekend)

I am wondering if I underworked the dough?

Rise was defiantely better and still a good flavor.

Ray